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* Indy Star…
In today’s Indiana, 27 percent of jobs are in occupations that pay below poverty, a national organization, the Working Poor Families Project, has reported.
Largely as a result of such forces, median incomes in Indiana have fallen 12 percent since 2007, U.S. Census figures show. And low-income workers were hit hardest. A Brookings Institute analysis found an earnings decline of more than 25 percent in lower-income Indianapolis households.
Discuss.
posted by Rich Miller
Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 10:17 am
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- Pew Research, 10/2014 -
“According to the BLS, the average hourly wage for non-management private-sector workers last month was $20.67, unchanged from August and 2.3% above the average wage a year earlier. That’s not much, especially when compared with the pre-Great Recession years of 2006 and 2007, when the average hourly wage often increased by around 4% year-over-year. (During the high-inflation years of the 1970s and early 1980s, average wages commonly jumped 8%, 9% or even more year-over-year.)
But after adjusting for inflation, today’s average hourly wage has just about the same purchasing power as it did in 1979, following a long slide in the 1980s and early 1990s and bumpy, inconsistent growth since then. In fact, in real terms the average wage peaked more than 40 years ago: The $4.03-an-hour rate recorded in January 1973 has the same purchasing power as $22.41 would today.”
So, it isn’t just Indiana - but they’ve been a popular target lately, haven’t they?
Comment by VanillaMan Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 10:21 am
No, you see, the Religious Freedom bill will increase wages and economic growth, you’re just not understanding its purpose…
Comment by PMcP Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 10:22 am
That’s the Rauner model, that’s the Rauner game plan. Lower everyone’s income. He talks about it every day.
Comment by Wordslinger Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 10:23 am
Yes, but they do not carry around the heavy burden of considering themselves members of a union, so they’ve got that going for them. Better to be in poverty than to belong to a group you don’t like. /snark/
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 10:26 am
Last I saw, the country as a whole is still below 2007, so….
Comment by Shemp Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 10:27 am
The Rauner way.
Comment by 618662dem Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 10:29 am
Looks like Indiana’s economic guts have already been ripped out.
Comment by northsider Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 10:31 am
If Rauner would just move there, then it would be 100% below poverty wages.
Comment by Bad Moon Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 10:41 am
More proof of the race to the bottom.
Comment by Jorge Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 10:42 am
I’ve been looking at the US Census data and I’m not seeing any dramatic drop for Indiana or Illinois. Since the entire US economy plummeted over the past eight years, the rankings for the states hasn’t changed much for either state.
Indiana is neither golden land or hell on Earth.
Comment by VanillaMan Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 10:45 am
=27 percent of jobs are in occupations that pay below poverty=
That’s one of the key takeaways- and many of them work for rich corporations like McDonald’s and Wal-Mart, who are the biggest welfare queens of all. They pay poverty wages that force employees onto governmental programs. This the Rauner plan.
What percentage of union jobs pay poverty wages? I bet it’s less than 27%.
Comment by chi Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 10:51 am
V MAN
Its time for all of us to realize that until Washington DC quits all these silly regulations and handouts Illinois and the entire country will continue suffering.
The business community has no faith or confidence in our elected officials. The politicians answer is to tax, tax, and tax some more.Then, after raising taxes, they start new programs with the additional revenue.
Under existing conditions promoted by the policies in DC this country and our childrens future are doomed.
We need a complete change in DC.
Comment by MOON Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:04 am
Moon,
What regulations are you referencing?
Did you have something specific in mind, or did you just think it would be a great to tell us what you just heard on [insert right wing news source]?
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:06 am
I wouldn’t jump up and down saying we’re much better…IL is 20.3% and WI is 21.5%, Missouri is 27.7% and Iowa is 23.2%. We all have some work to do.
Comment by Anonymous Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:13 am
Gooner.
Are you so naive or uninformed that you have to play the gotcha game ?
Start with fracking. How about the attempt to close coal fired power plants.What about the regulations dealing with the use of water in California? What about the open borders promoted by Obama?
I could go on and on if needed. But start with the examples just mentioned.
Comment by MOON Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:14 am
I’m not a huge union fan, but it strikes me that there’s a compelling argument to be made that middle class and working poor in right to work states wind up worse off than they do in non-right to work states.
Comment by Chicago Cynic Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:17 am
The message is clear low paying jobs are not able to support the average American. The buying power of 10/hr barely allows you to rent a house, drive a car, and own a cell phone. This is what is so crazy. While the cost of everything goes up somehow wages don’t follow? I’m not an economist, but it does not make any sense to me. Can someone explain?
Comment by BlameBruceRauner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:17 am
Moon,
Are you claiming there should be no regulation of fracking, power plants, or use of water during a drought?
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:18 am
Moon, interesting that you would mention “open borders” as a regulation issue.
That sounds like a lack of regulation. So now we need both more regulation and less regulation?
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:19 am
The IN legislature is looking to lower the wages even further by repealing the Common Construction Wage Law.
http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/politics/repeal-of-common-construction-wage/article_417eea65-32fb-5f62-b4a0-e882369b5637.html
While this may not push construction workers below the poverty level, it will diminish their purchasing power.
Comment by Lost in Translation Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:22 am
New State Slogan: Work to starve in scenic Indiana, but hey, we’re gaining on Bangladesh everyday.
Comment by PublicServant Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:27 am
GOONER
I think you need to be educated about what is happening in this country, and aware of current laws.
If you are content with the way things are just keep on supporting those who are in line with your thinking.
By the way, California’s water shortage is a result of regulations, and I am not referring to the current rationing.
Also, with regards to open borders we do not need more regulations, just enforce the existing laws, or maybe you are not aware these laws exist.
Comment by MOON Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:36 am
Moon,
You’ve now post three times or so and have yet to a point to a single regulation you believe is problem.
You just proved my point.
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:40 am
GOONER
Either you cannot comprehend or you are so closed minded you are beyond reasoning with.
Your postings just prove my point.
Have a nice day.
Comment by MOON Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:47 am
The major downward pressure on unskilled and semi-skilled labor wages comes from the addition of China,India, and Latin American workers to the world labor pool. Additional downward pressure comes from automation. Automation is also wiping out skilled positions. Remember graphic artists needed to prepare reports and grocery cashiers that had to know prices?
Unions raise wages in part by monopolizing the labor supply. Doing this in the world market of today is very difficult.
Programs like food stamps and Earned Income Tax Credit try to move real wages in the U.S. above the market clearing rate. They help, but are working against the world market.
Comment by Last Bull Moose Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:54 am
25% trickle-up to the job creaters
Comment by Anonymous Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 11:55 am
The “race to the bottom” amongst the states is one of the sadder, more pathetic things to happen to this country in a long time.
Comment by North Shore Joe Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:03 pm
Moon, you’re a laugh riot, especially on California water.
Anyway, the United States has been in a decades-long process of major deregulation — telecommunications, banking, trucking, airlines, etc. It’s been in all the papers.
Moon, not too many years ago, you couldn’t own your own phone. Interest on bank accounts was set by the government. Airline routes and rates, set by the government.
Coal will go out of business just like whale oil did — something better came along. And you realize U.S. oil and gas production is at record highs, correct?
Comment by Wordslinger Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:06 pm
==Indiana, 27 percent==
WPFP says it is 20.3 percent in Illinois.
Comment by Formerly Known As... Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:10 pm
Moon…..Earth to Moon….ground control to Moon….reality to moon. “California’s water shortage is a result of regulations” Ummmm no. California’s water shortage is due to lack of snowfall in the Sierra Nevada mountains which is due to CLIMATE CHANGE which is why WE NEED MORE REGULATIONS to address the issue. You made my morning Moon. I haven’t laughed that hard in a LONG time. You are hilarious! I bet you own a replica three cornered hat with a tea bag hanging from it, don’t you? Wow, too funny!
Comment by Honeybear Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:11 pm
WORD
Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
Most informative.
Comment by MOON Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:12 pm
Automation, China, India, etc. all play a role, but there are plenty of jobs here (McDonald’s, Wal-Mart, construction) that aren’t going anywhere. And when policies are in place to remove employees’ power to bargain and organize, you create poverty where none is required. Side note, wages in China are going up rapidly. This trend will continue throughout the developing world, the faster the better, which makes manufacturing in America more attractive.
But any argument that says ‘we have to cut workers’ wages because China’, avoids dealing with the jobs we have.
Comment by chi Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:16 pm
HONEYBEAR
Please answer this question.
Are the water rates charged by utilities regulated?
I agree that the snowfall has been part of the water shortage problem, but then what about the regulation ow water rates.
The more water cost the less waste and use.
Comment by MOON Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:17 pm
MOON: Do arguments with your spouse or significant other (assuming you have one) go some like this: Him/Her: “What’s wrong?” You: “You should know.” I only get that impression because that’s your style of “debate” here.
Comment by Skeptic Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:17 pm
Moon,
You provided a right wing talking point with zero detail to back your claim, and then you insult Wordslinger?
Here’s the thing, Moon. Over the years Wordslinger provides great detail on countless topics. His comments are usually fact based and often entertaining.
Moon, you in contrast provided “regulations are bad” but did not cite a single regulation that you find problematic. Not one. You provided some broad categories, but zero specifics. Are you really suggesting that fracking should have no regulation at all? That a completely unregulated coal power plant should be able to move next door to your own house?
Hmmn, I’ve got to side with Wordslinger on this one, but that is probably just because I have a bias towards both facts and good writing.
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:20 pm
In any case, I suspect we can all agree that Moon has not provided anything to prove his allegation that “regulation” is the root of the problem in Indiana, so we probably should move on to other alternatives.
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:23 pm
Gee, since these numbers came from and unbiased source such as “Working Poor Families Project”, there’s no reason to question their numbers, or their interpretation of those numbers, is there?LOL
I wonder how they arrived at the “27.3%” number, and whether that accounts multiple wage earners in the same family. If you have four min wage workers in a house, you may be able to get by quite comfortably on 112% of “poverty” level in rural Indiana.
How are family farm workers counted? Maw and Paw may own the farm and be millionaires on hundreds of acres of choice Midwestern farmland, but the kids and their families, who may live for free in vacant farmhouses, use family farm vehicles which they don’t “own” and perhaps get groceries from the folks may only be technically paid minimum wage for tax purposes, but may be living quite a bit above that “poverty level” and qualify for public assistance. And, of course, when Maw and Paw expire the trust in which the farm is held makes them millionaires as well.
There’s just too many open questions here by which “Working” can mislead or deceive to get their donations and contributions, and perhaps even government grants.
When will they do an analysis on Illinois, which is in the same boat as Indiana except that Illinois never recovered about 200,000 jobs from the Illinois Quinn-Madigan-Cullerton recession, while Indiana has pretty much recovered all their jobs since the 2006 peak.
Let’s see. One state has a highly liberal, Democrat dominated government that favors unions over the interests of about 85% of its citizens and killed 200,000 jobs and is a fiscal disaater, and the other states has recovered all but of few thousand of the jobs it lost, but has a slightly higher single income earner poverty rate, but run by Republicans in a right to work environment.
Obviously, the real villain here is the Republican state, right?
Comment by Rapscallion Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:31 pm
==California’s water shortage==
Much of California’s groundwater use was unregulated until last year. And this weekend it was reported that Nestlé’s permit to suck water out of the San Bernardino National Forest and bottle it actually expired in 1988.
Though CA has not completed a major water infrastructure project in half a century, 70 percent of their rainfall washes out to sea and 300b gallons of water are diverted annually to protect the Delta smelt fish.
Comment by Formerly Known As... Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:38 pm
“The first thing we do, is kill all the [unions]….” (Bill Shakespeare, discussing the surest path to tyranny and chaos, with artistic revision)
Comment by Ghost Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:39 pm
Moon, water rates charged have nothing to do with the shortage. The shortage is caused by LACK OF WATER! Fine, look at pictures. Look at any California water source. ANY! See the water marks of where the water used to be? That’s not due to rates moon, that is due to lack of water renewal. No rain, no gain, no snow, no flow. It’s really very simple.
Comment by Honeybear Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:43 pm
So when wages and benefits are decreased less revenue is collected. Who’ll be picking up the tab for the lost revenue, the 1%ers? Surely not the corporations….we’re into giving them tax breaks! People who have no health insurance and can’t afford to buy it will need to be on the dole. Who’ll pay for that? Is limiting birth numbers next on the list?
Comment by AnonymousOne Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:44 pm
Raps, it might help if you read the story.
Unless you think everyone is cooking their numbers — the State of Indiana, the U.S. Census Bureau, the Bureau of Labor Statistics…..
Are they part of that corrupt system the boss is always talking about?
Geez, who isn’t?
Comment by Wordslinger Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:46 pm
FORMERLY
Thanks for your input.
The question for the naysayers is: Did the diversion of water to the Delta Smelt Fish come about by a regulation, law, and/or policy or just by natural causes?
Comment by MOON Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:56 pm
Rapscallion;
Another red herring argument is that union rights only affect union members. It’s well established that a high union wage lifts non-union wages in that sector too, if for no other reason than the non-union employer wants to remain non-union. Union rights affect the bargaining power of all workers.
Comment by chi Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 12:57 pm
Rapscallion:
You don’t have to wonder. Read the Census Bureau reports.
“There’s just too many open questions here….” Um, no. The data from the Census Bureau and Bureau of Labor Statistics is so basic, reliable and uncontroverted that everyone from academic researched to Fortune 500 companies relies upon it every day.
And as of January 2015, Illinois had 40,000 fewer private sector jobs than it did in January 2007. That is a net gain of 300,000 private sector jobs since Illinois’ economy bottomed out in January 2010 from The Great Bush Recession.
Indiana saw a net gain of 29K private sector jobs from Jan-Jan, 2007-2015, an increase of about 250,000 jobs since January 2010.
In other words, over the last five years, Quinn-Madigan-Cullerton created 50,000 more jobs than Team Hoosier.
You are entitled to your own ideology, but not your own facts.
Comment by Juvenal Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:06 pm
I googled - MOON is correct.
The number of pages in The Code of Federal Regulations has increased six-fold from 19,335 in 1949 to 134,261 in 2005. As of 2011, the number of pages had risen to 169,301. Sometimes deregulation extends rather than shortens the number of pages in the register; but economists interested in the impact the Feds have on economic growth, adjust their figures to take this into account.
Those regulations.
We’ve been losing about 2% economic growth due to Federal regulations every year since 1949.
It all sounds rather unbelievable to me, but smarter people who study these things at our universities have more credibility regarding this than anyone blogging here on the issue. Worse, ignoring what has happened to the US economy due to federal regulations, by claiming we’re seeing deregulation, is just disingenuous.
So, what MOON pointed out shouldn’t be fodder for harassment. It is a fact. Enough with your silly insults.
Comment by VanillaMan Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:08 pm
Go ahead and insult Indiana, but there isn’t really anything in this report to justify additional harassment, in my opinion.
Comment by VanillaMan Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:10 pm
Well Vanilla, if Google says that we are losing 2% then by golly, we must be losing 2%!
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:10 pm
Moon
Keeping posting Please! Your uneducated comments are great fodder for the informed!
Comment by BlameBruceRauner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:15 pm
– We’ve been losing about 2 percent economic growth due to federal regulations every year since 1949 –
What in the world are you talking about?
Comment by Wordslinger Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:15 pm
Insults can’t trump facts.
Don’t be a denier.
Comment by VanillaMan Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:16 pm
Vanilla, do you live next door to a coal fired power plant?
If not, would you?
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:24 pm
V MAN
You have to realize when the facts do not fit the narrative they must resort to insults and denial.
Its commonly know as stupidity in the real
world where you and I reside.
Comment by MOON Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:26 pm
VMan, lol, “facts?” That paper didn’t come from Mt. Sinai, but from some yokels at Applachian State and North Carolina State.
Geez, you peddle one “publish or perish” economics paper and you think that closes the books on a discussion?
Seriously, could you make heads or tails of that stuff?
Those equations make sense to you, lol?
Comment by Wordslinger Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:29 pm
WORD
Does your opinions come from Mt. Sinai?
Just wondering !
Comment by MOON Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:32 pm
Moon, please give us your take on that link VMan provided.
Those equations on Page 11 look right to you?
Comment by Wordslinger Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:32 pm
MOON: I, for one, wasn’t making fun of your “facts”, I was making fun of your argument, which was completely devoid of anything rational.
Comment by Skeptic Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:33 pm
That article reaches a conclusion based on the number of pages?
Ok, let’s ponder that one.
A regulation saying “No coal fired power plants anywhere, from this point forward” would have a LOWER economic impact, according to the article, than a regulation stating that in coal fired power plants, people in different jobs must wear different uniforms.
That’s ridiculous.
Vanilla and Moon, did you read any part of that article?
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:34 pm
Illinois’ unemployment rate has been dropping precipitously, greater than Indiana’s. This plus Illinois’ much higher median incomes shows we should run away from right to work as fast as we can.
Speaking of climate change, are we n
Comment by Grandson of Man Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:38 pm
More to the point: Even if that 2% figure is true, what’s the other side of the equation? How “sustainable” is unfettered capitalism? Maybe that 2% is buying us better health, better working conditions, financial security, and a safer environment. Do you really want to drive a car built to pre-1949 regulations? I didn’t think so.
Comment by Skeptic Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:40 pm
Why am I not surprised that you decided to attack the sources and not the facts?
Give it up. You can’t be in favor of more regulations and also deny that there are more regulations.
It is pretty easy to see that we’ve gotten more regulations than ever and its is having a negative effect upon our economy.
Laugh at the universities or make fun of the way the professors dress or their accents, but as I’ve already noted, it seems rather incredible, but there you go.
Just stick with the facts and quit finding subjective reasons. You guys got anything to back up your daydreams that increasing the federal regulations six-fold has no effect on our economy - I’ll be interested.
And it looks like your “deregulation” theory had already been considered into this report, so you aren’t wrong, it just seems that the deregulation movement has been overwhelmed by the tons of new regulations, right?
Comment by VanillaMan Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:41 pm
Vanilla, unless you are familiar with the work through other sources, probably best not to link to a 50 page article.
We all know you didn’t have time to read it. All you are telling us is that you post opinions without facts.
You are better than that, Vanilla.
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:41 pm
VMan,since you chose 1949, you know economic growth has largely been on a bull run since then? So has productivity.
In recent decades what has been stagnant has been household income. There has still been economic growth, but the rewards have gone to the very few.
You could find that in the google a lot easier than trolling Applachian economic papers.
Comment by Wordslinger Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:41 pm
I love how the study cited by VMan uses page count as a quantifiable measure of regulations. What I didn’t see (or simply got board reading) is a indexing of the 1949 pages for 2005 pages (used as the benchmark year). Are pages the same size? Did they use the same font and size. What about page margins? These key inputs on the impact that regulations have on the economy.
Comment by CLJ Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:43 pm
“Why am I not surprised that you decided to attack the sources and not the facts?”
Vanilla, let’s look at the articles “facts.”
Vanilla, do you agree with the authors that a one line regulation banning coal fired power plants has less of an economic impact than three pages of regulation of uniform colors for job categories within a coal fired power plant?
Explain those “facts” to us lad.
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:43 pm
Oops, I hit the submit button too soon. I’ll try again. Speaking of climate change, I read that Wisconsin and Florida banned some state workers from officially mentioning “climate change.” What is this, corporate Sharia law?
Comment by Grandson of Man Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:44 pm
BTW, lets remember that MOON got fired up over nothing originally in this thread.
Bottom line, this is a nice biased partisan insult against Hoosierville and nothing more.
That link I provided is a lot more balanced than the report this thread originally focused upon.
Comment by VanillaMan Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:45 pm
Vanilla, this started because Moon tried to explain the situation in Indiana as due to regulation.
Nearly 70 comments, and there has been zero support for Moon’s theory.
In fact, there hasn’t even been a reference to one single government regulation.
Moon’s theory is not supported by any facts. Time for us to move on.
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:49 pm
VMan, you crack me up.
One academic paper now equals “facts” to you?
If I post a slew of opposing academic papers, are those also facts?
And, please, your “number of pages” argument is embarrassing.
For examples, how many pages on nuclear power regulations do you think there were in 1949? Should there be a few, you think, to accommodate the industry?
Comment by Wordslinger Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:49 pm
I think the Federal Register is still formatted the same way after all these years (not that it matters much). Dawson’s a Cato Institute guy, so we know where he’s coming from.
It’s an interesting way to assess federal regulation, that’s for sure. They say they even corrected for the fact that deregulating is technically another regulation, thereby increasing the page count. I’d love to spend hours figuring out how that’s done but I have a job!
Comment by Lefty Lefty Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:51 pm
“It is pretty easy to see that we’ve gotten more regulations than ever and its is having a negative effect upon our economy.”
Well, if it was easy, then I suspect you would have an easy time finding something credible to back that claim.
Apparently, it is not so easy.
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:54 pm
- For examples, how many pages on nuclear power regulations do you think there were in 1949? -
Don’t forget that the Internet was going gangbusters in ‘49 until the pages were added to the book for it.
We all know how that turned a once promising idea into a passing fad.
Comment by Anonymous Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:55 pm
The California water shortage discussion in the thread is quite funny.
The population of that state has doubled since 1970 with no new reservoirs or storage systems built. Can anyone doubt that the amount of available water storage has become inadequate for the population served? Clearly lack of rain is a major issue, but with a higher amount of water in storage per capita, the effects of the drought would not be as great as they are now.
Government again has been asleep at the switch by ignoring the news for more water for nearly 50 years. Whether the problem is government regulation or governmental negligence, the common factor is the government.
Comment by plutocrat03 Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 1:57 pm
Pluto, in the case of California water, it’s definitely negligence. They haven’t even tried, because building more capacity would cost money while conservation measures would honk people off.
But they kept building all those subdivisions with swimming pools in the desert.
Comment by Wordslinger Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 2:02 pm
Apparently, it is not so easy.
Especially to the close minded.
Comment by VanillaMan Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 2:10 pm
Vanilla,
You made a claim.
You failed to back it.
And yet you insult us?
That seems like an odd choice.
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 2:11 pm
Hey, I’m not the one pretending that regulations has no effect. I’m also not the one claiming that there shouldn’t be any regulations. I’ve got an open mind on this. It makes sense. I’ve already noted twice that it sounds amazing, but I’m not going to pretend that hundreds of thousands of federal regulations, on top of the thousands of state regulations, on top of the thousands of local regulations - won’t stifle an economy or harm businesses.
I didn’t make a claim. I just made a link to a credible source of information. You are the ones that got your knickers all in a tizzy, even before I read what MOON posted earlier in the day.
You guys can’t handle it? You think federal regulations are like some kind of papal bull?
There has to be some merit to the complaint that overregulation is wrecking havoc. Both parties have made that case over the past forty years.
I’m skeptical about this. Sorry you are offended by my skepticism.
Comment by VanillaMan Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 2:21 pm
VMan, make the argument you wish against any particular regulation, but the whole “regulation bad” game is ideological, not economic.
You take a drink of tap water every day confident that it won’t kill you. That the milk on your cereal doesn’t have salmonella. That your furnance and oven aren’t faulty. That the bolts holding your car together aren’t hollow. That the gas station pump isn’t rigged. That your health insurance is kosher. That your bank account is insured…….
On and on, every day, hundreds of ways. If you had to practice caveat emptor in every single transaction, nobody would ever make a buck because you couldn’t get anything done.
Comment by Wordslinger Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 2:24 pm
GOONER
You need to read my post of 11:04 am again.
I was referring to the entire US economy, not just Indiana.
I cited several regulations, policies, etc., and you just choose to ignore them.
Enough said, its time to move on and you can rest assured I will no longer continue this game of ” ping pong ” with you.
Comment by MOON Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 2:24 pm
MOON:
The water shortage in the west has absolutely nothing to do with regulation and everything to do with a lack of water for the population.
Comment by Demoralized Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 2:26 pm
Vanilla, there you go again.
You claim your article is “credible.”
In light of the comments noting the problems with the article, do you still view it as “credible”?
And “skepticism”? You haven’t offered that. You tossed an article to us without reading it. That’s the opposite of “skepticism.”
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 2:26 pm
==Bottom line, this is a nice biased partisan insult against Hoosierville and nothing more.==
On grow the heck up. It has nothing to do with partisanship and everything to do with the fact that our Governor and several other people around here are constantly moaning that they want to be more like Indiana or some other state. You really want to be like a state with low wages VMan?
Comment by Demoralized Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 2:28 pm
MOON - You are welcome. This is more than just regulation, but that has been part of the problem on both sides.
Drowning the Auburn Dam and other storage or canal projects in red tape since 1960 is hurting them now. Meanwhile, other regulations are not being followed as Nestle sucks the ground dry on a permit that expired in 1988.
Comment by Formerly Known As... Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 2:46 pm
Regulations are in place SIMPLY because someone took advantage of something that caused harm or unjust burden to another. Regulation doesn’t just spawn itself without some reason behind it. Remember when the Cuyahoga River was on fire? I’m still laughing MOON!!!
Comment by BlameBruceRauner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 4:13 pm
BLAME
Keep laughing, it demonstrates your ignorance.
Did you ever stop to consider that some regulations were enacted to take advantage of a situation or aid a friend of the regulator.
Comment by MOON Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 4:29 pm
“Did you ever stop to consider that some regulations were enacted to take advantage of a situation or aid a friend of the regulator.”
Really? Could you provide some examples?
Comment by Gooner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 4:33 pm
A year ago half of the Illinois political world was claiming that Illinois was disappearing down the toilet, while Indiana modeled the the best economic solutions.
Now we’re arguing over which state might be slightly behind the other.
Comment by walker Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 4:56 pm
Moons over my hammy,
Yes I have considered it. I just cant think of any examples, can you please enlighten me with some examples? Back in your court now……
Comment by BlameBruceRauner Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 4:57 pm
In the purely economic sense, I can see the case for and against “more regulations”. More regulations mean more regulators, experts, lawyers, people with creative minds who can take best advantage of the regulations, etc., all of which generate employment, assuming there is still a capital need to do the stuff that needs regulatin’. Regulations have been berry berry good to me as one who has capitalized on the need to meet them. On the other hand, I know firsthand that many projects didn’t get done as a result of one brick wall after another, and the developer finally throwing up their hands in defeat. The problem with knowing “what would’ve happened” for sure is that there is only one scenario that gets played out in real life…the one that actually happened, and we’ll never know what could have happened for better or worse. We have only speculation, study and punditry…which is another source of income for a few, I guess.
Comment by Six Degrees of Separation Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 5:26 pm
Not that California water has anything to do with Illinois, since commentators have been tossing out facts without atribution here’s an article discussing those facts. Disregard the source all you want, but try to argue against the experts cited:
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/04/09/3643879/the-backwards-way-of-approaching-californias-drought/
Long story short, taxpayers don’t want to pay for new water infrastructure and even if they did it wouldn’t have added enough storage capacity to really amount to anything useful in combating the drought.
Comment by MyTwoCents Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 6:08 pm
Could you provide some examples?
How about the push forE-15 ethanol gasoline in the gas tanks of the City of Chicago.
All know data show that it is a bad idea. Worse fuel economy, damage to a higher number of engines, additional pressure on fresh water supplies in the production of ethanol etc. etc
And yet the pols want to push it through……
Comment by plutocrat03 Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 6:42 pm
Plutocrat03,
Who is behind the ordinance that would make E15 ethanol available at gas stations in Chicago? Where did the city aldermen (“pols”) get the idea to sponsor the ordinance?
Did they get it from a faceless, overreaching government regulator in Chicago or Springfield? Nope.
The ordinance is being pushed by the corn growers and ethanol plant operators.
Comment by Going nuclear Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 7:48 pm
And it got tabled. So it’s kind of hard to blame government for something they didn’t actually do.
Comment by Juice Monday, Apr 13, 15 @ 9:50 pm