Capitol Fax.com - Your Illinois News Radar

Garbage in, garbage out

Posted in:

Illinois
Polls
Updated Posts

* From the Illinois Policy Institute’s news service…

Three of Gov. Bruce Rauner’s agenda items have traction with voters, at least according to polling data released Wednesday by the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute. […]

* 57 percent said they would vote for right-to-work or open-shop laws, while 4 percent said they leaned toward such laws. Thirty-three percent said they were opposed or leaning toward opposition. Seven 7 percent gave an answer of “undecided” or said they didn’t know.

“That one was really pretty surprising,” Jackson said. “This is not a state where you’d expect people to favor right-to-work by anywhere near that margin. I don’t know if it’s linked with Rauner’s having campaigned about this so much or what, but I do think it’s surprising.

“I’m not entirely sure what to make of it other than the possibility of Rauner’s having campaigned on it so hard for so long,” Jackson said.

Another possible factor, Jackson said: Union membership has declined in Illinois and in the nation. It is down nationally from a high of about 37 percent to about 12 percent.

“There are not as many union households to understand what unions mean and why unions would be vehemently opposed to (Illinois becoming) a right-to-work state,” Jackson said.

* From the Illinois Policy Institute’s radio news network…

Better Government Association’s Andy Shaw told WMAY Springfield the finding calls into question Illinois’ status as a pro-union state.

“What you’re really hearing is people thinking that if (right-to-work) drives down the cost of government somewhat, it’s a good thing, because people feel their taxes are not being well enough spent,” Shaw said.

Meanwhile, Shaw said, there is another take on right-to-work: “Of course the other side says it’s a way of driving the wages and the lifestyle of the middle class down.”

When breaking that number down along party lines, 55 percent of Democrats, 69 percent of Republicans and 65 percent of independent voters say they lean toward right-to-work, according to the poll.

* OK, here’s the question asked by the Simon Institute…

Some states have passed right-to-work or open shop laws that say workers have the right to hold their jobs in a unionized workplace, whether they join the labor union or not. Would you vote for or against this proposal?

Ugh.

* I e-mailed David Yepsen at the Institute a couple of days ago to say I thought his poll question was bogus. He asked how I would’ve worded it and I replied…

How about something along the lines of receiving the full benefits of union membership without having to pay a dime for any of the union’s services?

Yepsen agreed.

This isn’t about some “right to freedom of association” it’s about a right to freeload. And it’s wrong.

Jackson and Shaw should’ve both known better.

…Adding… As pointed out in comments, this question merely affirms the current “fair share” system. You don’t have to join the union, but you still have to pay for the service. And that makes the Simon Institute question even more bogus.

posted by Rich Miller
Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:03 pm

Comments

Thanks Rich, I was just pointing this out in our local paper earlier in the week

Comment by Johnny Pyle Driver Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:06 pm
Glad you can confirm your own bias again Rich.

Thanks!

CC

Comment by Crescens Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:09 pm
Thanks for raising the issue. BTW, no one is forced to “join” a union.

Ever. That would be illegal.

As you stated, the fee (not dues) is for services received.

Comment by WTF Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:11 pm
**Glad you can confirm your own bias again Rich.**

I don’t think that bias means what you think it means.

Comment by AlabamaShake Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:13 pm
I’m sure Shaw does know.

Just as sure that Shaw knows Rauner contributes to the BGA.

I mean do they really expect anyone to believe that 57% of Democrats support the Right to Freeload nonsense?

Comment by Chicago 20 Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:14 pm
As you teach us, we should never cite a poll without understanding the questions that are asked. Please BGA, do not just read the headline.

Comment by uptown progressive Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:15 pm
Thanks for raising the issue.

One more way the question is bogus: no one is forced to join a union. EVER. That would be illegal.

As you pointed out, the fee (not dues) is for services received.

Comment by WTF Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:15 pm
Rich Miller…biased for accuracy

Seriously, though, that might as well have been a push poll. The Simon Institute are the ones who should be embarrassed.

Comment by Century Club Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:17 pm
In polling you can also phrase a question like: “supporters say [X] while opponents say [Y]” Do you agree more with opponents or supporters?” That sort of simulates the real world in which voters are hearing both arguments.

Comment by Bull Moose Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:19 pm
And yet so few small towns passed resolutions endorsing RTW. Even after having their municiple funding threatened.

I see no evidence of some sort of widescale public support for making Illinois RTW. Even at just the local level. Or else Bruce would have ran on it in the general.

Comment by There is power in a union... Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:19 pm
Glad you went after the question. Surprised a pro like Yepsen just put it out since it was such an obvious outlier. As you said, GIGO.

As for Andy and the BGA, you’re right he should also have checked the question, but the idea that BGA is just a Rauner stooge is just a joke. The organization gets millions from both sides of the aisle.

Comment by Chicago Cynic Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:20 pm
Andy Shaw is a fundraiser, he’s for sale.

Michelle Flaherty, in case you’re not out there today, I’m posting The Link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0hV8lCcB_E

Comment by wordslinger Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:21 pm
Polling on complex policy questions (as in, more than three words) is extremely difficult and slight differences in wording can sharply change the results in the same population or even sample.

I really wouldn’t say polling on RTW per se is useful whether you support it or not. There are better gauges for determining whether there will be strong negative repercussions (which is frankly the only question that’s really relevant when it comes to the politics of any given policy).

Comment by Will Caskey Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:23 pm
So…..the authors are drawing the conclusion that Rauner “campaigned hard” on RTW and that is responsible for increased numbers in favor of it? Alrighty then.

Comment by Cubs in '16 Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:24 pm
If unions want to bargain for their members and their members only, they should forfeit their exclusive representation status. Problem solved.

Comment by Jack Kemp Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:25 pm
Paul Simon is probably rolling over in his grave!

Comment by cgo75 Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:28 pm
Why don’t we get the answers from the voters? Since Madigan likes referendums so much maybe he can put on a non-binding referendum of weather or not Illinois should become right-to-work.

Comment by Ahoy! Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:28 pm
Bull Moose is right. Present both arguments and eliminate the bias. Novel idea.

Comment by anon Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:29 pm
Wow, after reading the way the question was worded, that would explain why the results of the poll favored RTW.

Comment by The Dude Abides Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:31 pm
The crosstabs of that poll are a mess. A majority of union respondents were for RTW.

Comment by Lakeview J Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:35 pm
==- Jack Kemp - Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:25 pm:==

I’d expect a smart person who comments under the name Jack Kemp to understand federal labor law. That is too much to ask.

Comment by Precinct Captain Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:35 pm
You can always get the answer you want if you ask a “properly” phrased question.

Comment by RNUG Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:37 pm
Jackson definitely knows better. He’s one of the best political science professors around. Right To Work is definitely about getting union benefits and perks without paying for them.

Comment by Southern Dawg Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:37 pm
We adapted the wording from Gallup:

“Some states have passed right-to-work or open shop laws that say each worker has the right to hold his job in a company, no matter whether he joins a labor union or not. If you were asked to vote on such a law, would you vote for it, or against it?”

We added “in a unionized workplace.” Not that Gallup is infallible (ask President Romney), but we didn’t just pull this out of thin air. And Gallup’s having asked it gives us something to compare Illinois with. (Nationally, in 2014, 71% told Gallup they would vote for it.)

Comment by Charlie Leonard Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:38 pm
Word +1

Comment by Norseman Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:39 pm
Thanks for clearing this up!

Comment by Jimmy0 Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:42 pm
Garbage 1% poll. Sit down and negotiate a budget with revenue increases. It’s that simple.

Comment by Mouthy Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:47 pm
- Ahoy! - Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:28 pm:
Why don’t we get the answers from the voters? -

This is one thing I thought about many times… given the choice what the states people decide? It is the people whom we work for.

On a second note, I would love to be able to have my job and relinquish all forms of Union support from and for me… that would be a totally free workplace… It you want to be in the Union by all means join and pay the dues and get whatever your union provides… If you do not want to be in the Union, nor forcibly contribute then you don’t.

Sounds fair to me…. I would say bye bye Union in a heartbeat… all but 2 in my shop agree.

Comment by Allen D Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:50 pm
Charlie, that 57% said they agree with the current system of fair share. People can hold any job whether they join a union or not currently. That is why your question is garbage. A union member likely agrees that people shouldn’t be forced to join, but they should be required to pay for the benefits they receive as a result of the collective bargaining process.

Do you understand now? You weren’t asking about RTW, you were asking about Fair Share. You were asking if people agree with current law.

Comment by Me too Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:55 pm
Charlie said RTW or open shop in the poll, but then incorrectly defined what it is. Everyone currently has a right to hold any job, ANY JOB, even at a unionized workplace without joining a union. It is called fair share.

Comment by Me too Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 1:59 pm
===We adapted the wording from Gallup===

Garbage is garbage, no matter where the garbage comes from. That question is garbage. Period.

Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:00 pm
IPI always stands ready to exploit blindly factoids that comport with their predetermined ideological views

Comment by A worker Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:00 pm
“Some states have passed no poll zones or open freedom laws that say each person has the right to not be bothered at his job in a domicile, no matter whether he wants to contribute to a bogus poll or not. If you were asked to vote on such a law, would you vote for it, or against it?”

Comment by Anonymous Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:03 pm
Allen, why? What harm is inflicted upon you by receiving support from the union? Oh, I forgot, you are also one of the people who thinks destroying our economy is worth it, so long as you save 100 bucks a month. So you’d love to save 50 more while reducing your overall pay by more than that, losing job security, rarely seeing raises etc.

Face it man, your hatred of unions goes so far as to win out over your own self interest. Why?

Comment by Me too Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:04 pm
Sorry that anonymous was me.

Comment by Trolling Troll Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:04 pm
I’ll try this comment for a third time without all the fluff:

“Members-only contracts have long been recognized.” - Justicr Brennan, writing for the majority. Retail Clerks Association be. Lion Dry Goods, Inc. 369 U.S. 17 (1962)

Comment by Jack Kemp Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:07 pm
No wonder so many states have passed it, Charlie. The voters are “dumbed down”. Not to mention that the “right-to-work” descriptor is very misleading.

Comment by Austin Blvd Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:09 pm
“Workers have the right to hold their jobs” could be interpreted as they will lose their jobs if they don’t join the union.

Careful wordsmithing to achieve the desired result.

Comment by Sir Reel Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:13 pm
Thx, Rich for the succinct and clear rephrasing of that bogus “RTW” question.

Comment by Anonymous Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:17 pm
Bad job by you, Yepsen. I saw people posting about it on twitter, went back and looked at the question and came to the same conclusion, Rich. Yepsen should know better than than. That’s rookie ball. Unless he’s pushing an agenda.

Comment by Corporate Thug Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:17 pm
Allen D

As suggested before. Quit your current job; move to a RTW state; and enjoy! Can’t be fun whining and feeling bad about Unions, can it?

Comment by sal-says Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:18 pm
Charlie: I’ve known you for a while and Rich is right. That question is garbage. I would even answer that I support it and I know better.

Comment by Southern Dawg Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:20 pm
“Sounds fair to me…. I would say bye bye Union in a heartbeat… all but 2 in my shop agree.”

Then vote to de-cert. Sounds like it would be easy. Then you can turn it into that free market paradise where you are all independent contractors negotiating separately for your wages and benefits.

Or just get a job that’s not in a union. There are plenty out there. With such a low unionization rate in this country, it always baffles me when I hear about these poor workers “trapped” in horrible union represented jobs.

Comment by There is power in a union... Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:29 pm
Long ago, when I was in high school, I used to go to Tivoli theater in Downers Grove. They had a dumpster in their parking lot with the logo, “John Rot Disposal Service. Satisfaction Guaranteed or Double Your Garbage Back”. Seems like we have been getting nothing but garbage from Rauner for the last year, and if we don’t like it, we will get double this year!

Comment by DuPage Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:48 pm
It’s not Freeloading! Unions in Illinois bargain to gain “exclusive representation” rights as a part of their contracts. If we were right-to-work or did not require payment in a union shop they could simply no longer represent non-paying members. Forcing government employees especially to join a private organization as a requirement of employment is unconstitutional. Let the union fight to show their worth and let people join voluntarily. Something like 8 percent of people in government unions ever voted to ratify or uncertify the union they’re forced into.

Comment by JustRight Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 2:56 pm
If SIU is making cuts, this type of polling could go and the school wouldn’t suffer.

Comment by Michelle Flaherty Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 3:15 pm
- Allen D

Let the people decide.

It is only fair to allow a majority of the people decide what everyone should do together.

It takes a majority of the workers in a workplace to establish a union, it also takes a majority of the workers in a workplace to decertify a union.

It seems in your workplace a majority of the workers thought for their own benefit it was in their best interest to unionize.

It also appears that there are insufficient votes to decertify.

You got your wish. The people have decided.

Comment by Chicago 20 Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 3:21 pm
All right to work really does is drive down wages that people will earn and just look at our neighbors in Wisconsin and Indiana it didn’t help those people at all and lots would love to do away with those laws

Comment by Anonymous Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 3:21 pm
Just right and Allen d,

People are more than welcome to donate their step raises and cola’s to a RTW institute in order to quicker free themselves from horrible bondage.

Comment by There is power in a union... Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 3:29 pm
Technically, I don’t believe my job belongs in a union. My job requires skills that are unique between individuals, it requires logic and analytical mind-sets,. However, I would never vote to de-certify. Why? Take a look at the merit comp folks who haven’t had raises in about a decade.

Comment by Thoughts Matter Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 3:30 pm
It takes a majority of the workers in a workplace to establish a union, it also takes a majority of the workers in a workplace to decertify a union.

It is hard when you are part of AFSCME and work for the STATE…

There should not be forced union participation just to hold a job the helps the public at large…

Comment by Allen D Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 3:31 pm
Allen, go for a merit comp spot. Then you will finally be out from the oppressive yoke of organized labor.

No one is “forcing you to participate.” You only have to pay a fair share of what it costs to represent you and your rights under the contract.

Comment by There is power in a union... Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 3:36 pm
Allen D

Hopefully you are looking for a different job. It simply makes no sense to accept employment in a Union workplace and just whine and moan about unions. It’s like taking a job as a zookeeper but hating animals.

Comment by Anonymous Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 3:43 pm
=No one is “forcing you to participate.” You only have to pay a fair share of what it costs to represent you and your rights under the contract.=

Exactly. I don’t have the stats but several people in my office who were “fair share” employees couldn’t become full-paying members fast enough once Rauner was elected. Very few members I know have any involvement in union duties.

Ask yourself why there was a boatload of people who joined under Blago. These were former merit people that were finally allowed to join. Wonder why they weren’t too upset with paying fair share? Ask them if they regret joining and you’ll be laughed at. Most of their salaries absolutely exploded.

Comment by CrazyHorse Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 3:53 pm
Allen D-

You are a part of a collective. Do your part. Participate.

Quit whining.

Comment by Chicago 20 Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 3:56 pm
Trade unions and public unions are different animals. Sort through this string of comments and you come away with the sense that some state workers believe that they have been whipsawed between money and their better judgement, i.e., join the union or you have seen your last pay raise.

Comment by Anonymous Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 4:14 pm
Here is the proper wording: Would you rather choose mandatory union dues with high salaries and benefits or voluntary union dues with lower salary and benefits?

Comment by Liberty Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 4:17 pm
Why not ask those in the unions what portion of their money they want to go to political donations. And let them Choose if they want to donat or not to those funds.

Comment by the Cardinal Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 4:19 pm
Union dues of state workers can’t go to politics. That is a separate voluntary deduction. Usually 4.20 a check. Comes out to a hundred bucks a year. You have to sign a whole different card to do that one and no one can make you.

Comment by There is power in a union... Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 4:24 pm
You are invited to a restaurant by your friends. You walk in and find out it’s a sushi restaurant. You walk up to the waiter and say “sorry I don’t want or like sushi.” The waiter says “oh, that’s ok. You have a choice. You can buy this sushi and eat it. Or you can give us the same amount of money and someone else can eat it! Those are your only options. Hope you’re not hungry.”

Comment by JustRight Friday, Mar 11, 16 @ 4:52 pm