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* Molly Parker has a very interesting read in the Southern Illinoisan about the future of SIU. Here is, to me, the best section, where President Randy Dunn talks about what has gone wrong…
Dunn said part of the issue administrators are having with wrapping their arms around the enrollment situation is sifting through the specific causes of the downward [enrollment] trend. A portion of the decline is — and may be for some time — related to budget woes stemming from Springfield. For instance, SIU and other Illinois institutions of higher learning have suffered over the uncertainty of state funds for Monetary Award Program grants awarded to students by the state based on financial need.
But before this, SIU’s Carbondale campus also has suffered from what Dunn opined were significant administrative missteps — in terms of both SIU past leaders’ desires to raise standards on the high end, with regards to its standing as a research institution, and drop them on the low end, by opening the doors to students who were ill prepared for the university setting, based on tests and other factors, as a means of bolstering enrollment to avoid difficult budget decisions. […]
“I would submit to you that about 15 years ago, we started on this path that said SIU is going to be a mini-University of Illinois or University of Michigan,” Dunn said. “That was a goal to put us in the top 75 of research institutions and things like that.” […]
“I’m convinced that we went too far on that end of the continuum and forgot about the fact we are still a public institution, the regional institution for a bunch of counties in Southern Illinois,” he said.
On the other end, as enrollment dropped, Dunn said it’s his understanding, from reviewing enrollment data and corresponding student profiles, that during that same time frame some poor decisions were made to enroll students who, by all traditional measurements, were not prepared, leading to a retention problem when those students ultimately dropped out a semester or year later.
That also amounted to a disservice to those students, Dunn said, because the university did not have the structures in place to provide that many academically struggling students the supports necessary for success. […]
“We can serve a certain number of those access students and we tend to know what that number is and the supports are pretty good. But we were flooding the system with unqualified students who were dropping out after a semester or a year — with some debt, typically. Some stayed in the community, some went off without any set of skills. … We’ve got to quit doing that.”
So, when the spending required to elevate SIU into a higher tiered university didn’t bear immediate fruit, the school started letting in unqualified students to, essentially, scam some easy money from them for a semester or two to pad the books. Not good. Really not good.
But, hey, at least they recognize the problem. That’s the first step toward recovery. And they’re far from alone on this loosened standards on the low end thing. The other directionals need to take immediate note.
* Related…
* Illinois Colleges Besieged by Cuts as Budget Fight Trickles Down
posted by Rich Miller
Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:11 am
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Thanks for sharing the article. I had no idea that SIU offered a major in fermentation science, with breweries popping up everywhere, that is a selling point for SIU.
Comment by Drink Local Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:20 am
I really admire their self-criticism.
Comment by Honeybear Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:22 am
It is good that they realize the mis direction, hopefully they will get back on track.
It is also good that they didn’t “because Rauner” the issue.
Comment by allknowingmasterofracoondom Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:28 am
SIU allowing unprepared students is not good, but not unique to SIU. My undergraduate alma mater, a similar sized school in Pennsylvania, began doing the same thing around my senior year. And I’ve since visited the campus to chat with my former professors and they even bring up this issue. I’m pleased we’ve recognized one of our problems and have sought to correct it by raising admission standards, which initially hurts new enrollment but improves retention.
Comment by Saluki Matt Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:31 am
WIU is doing the same thing right now. They are admitting students with ACT scores as low as 18…..,,,and achieving the same predictable results as SIUC. The only difference? The President has yet to admit it’s a mistake despite the horrific academic performance of those admitted. Coupled with the budget fiasco and a crumbling infrastructure ( they want to tear down more vacant dorms but can’t afford to) WIU is well on its way to becoming 4,000 student campus again. A long and sad decline from the 12,000 students of just a few years ago.
However, the governor likes it! He just appointed the President to the IBHE! Why take the blame when you can get the university president to do your dirty work for you willingly but unwittingly? Pathetic leadership at some of our universities.
Comment by Old and In the Way Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:32 am
Randy Dunn might just be one of the best of the current batch of public university president’s. He’s down to earth and politically savvy enough to navigate the choppy waters of Springfield.
Comment by Because I said so.... Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:33 am
When I went to school there about 30 years ago there were freshman who would come to school, use their grants, map, whatever with no intention of graduation. Party until they flunk out and go home. If these are thhe people they got rid of then dont back track.
Comment by SIU Graduate Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:34 am
I wonder if seeking reciprocity with neighboring states in offering in-state tuition to state schools is part of the “school choice” agenda? Why should Illinois students be stuck with underfunded state colleges when they could choose other nearby schools? The competition would surely make Illinois schools better. And why not extend it to include portability of MAP grants to out of state schools?
Comment by not so simple Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:34 am
Interesting related set of reform principles and identification of “the real problems,” very relevant for SIU, here:
http://www.vox.com/2016/7/22/12254046/myths-higher-education-crisis-debt-loans-free-tuition
Comment by ZC Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:36 am
More evidence that the inability to make decisions in Springfield has forced others to make bad decisions. Our leaders’ inability to play nice is sickening.
But what is worse is that they don’t even care. They’re gross and they’re negligent. They’re completely focused on the next election when they should be focused on doing the job that they all worked so hard to get.
Comment by Not It Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:39 am
Back in the 70’s, the two easiest schools to get into were SIU-C and WIU. I doubt they have lowered standards much over the years.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:42 am
Southeast Missouri State of Cape Girargeau, Mo agressively courts students in neighboring states. The RedHawks are eating the Salukis lunch.
Comment by Former hillrod Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:45 am
I love it when good analysis is done and the policy makers use it to make better decisions.
Graduate and undergraduate programs are very different. But both need to be reviewed to make sure that students admitted can do the work and then to make sure that students graduate on time with useful degrees.
The Governor can work through the Boards of Trustees to make sure this happen.
Comment by Last Bull Moose Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:46 am
I left SIU after a single semester in 2006 due to my personal distaste for the culture of a large, rural university campus.
However, I knew six other students who left the school after a single semester for purely academic reasons, including one who said he got a 13 on his ACT, even though the university’s minimum score for acceptance was supposed to be 21.
Comment by John Gregory (ex-IRN) Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:48 am
- Anonymous - Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:42 am:
Back in the 70’s, the two easiest schools to get into were SIU-C and WIU. I doubt they have lowered standards much over the years.
Don’t know about SIUC but WIU raised standards and attracted more qualified students. Enrollment, retention and graduation rates went up. Minimum ACT required was 24 and the average was 26 until recently when they lowered it to 18.
Comment by Old and In the Way Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:52 am
WIU not spellchecker why.
Comment by illinois manufacturer Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:52 am
WIU is doing something smart and working with the junior colleges. It gets them away from the Freshmen focus and race to the bottom
Comment by illinois manufacturer Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:57 am
The University is under good leadership with Randy Dunn at the helm. Chancellor Colwell is also a savvy, clear eyed administrator. SIU grew to 24,000 students in 1994 because they held to high academic standards, but didn’t try to push away the identity of being a “party” school. The combination of attracting qualified students that didn’t mind having a good time created a campus that was vibrant, smart and culturing exciting to be a part of. Then in the early 2000’s the University tried to redefine it’s image, and it was a dramatic failure. Carbondale is still a great place to live, and raise a family, and I pray that we are close to a turning point in terms of student retention and attraction.
Comment by Saluki Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:57 am
I think SIU was on a path of over-extension much more than 15 years ago — they started down that path back in the 1950s-1960s in the days of SIU President Delyte Morris. They’re still ratcheting down their overly ambitious plans from 50 years ago. But the analysis here is essentially correct.
Comment by IllinoisBoi Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 11:00 am
EIU has the same problems as SIU (minus the research institution goal).
EIU has not had the honest self reflection that SIU has had in identifying the other problem.
Speaking the truth is necessary.
Regional legacy EIU parents are voting with their feet and their children are attending SIU-Edwardsville.
This won’t be fixed quickly. Cutting off funding for a year has not helped. At. All.
Comment by Vassar Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 11:15 am
Uh-oh…this has a nasty trickle down effect that is a byproduct of the “every kid goes to college” mindset of the last 15 years. NCLB created a mindset that every kid goes to college, politicians enacted mandatory testing, high schools loved the press of “college bound” students and “passing schools,” teachers taught/teach to tests and passed kids along (”nobody fails” one principal used to say), college enrollment swelled, ACT/SAT is thrilled, banks providing loans were ecstatic, and so on. What was discovered? Many students, not prepared for college at all, were taking sub 100 level prep courses. It would be interesting to see how other state universities fared during the NCLB years with their enrollment, courses enrolled, and student dropout rates. This isn’t just SIU.
Comment by Now What? Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 11:15 am
- illinois manufacturer - Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:57 am:
WIU is doing something smart and working with the junior colleges. It gets them away from the Freshmen focus and race to the bottom.
It is a good strategy and program but not a new one. It’s started in 1998 with BHC, Sandburg, Spoon River, and John Wood. Expanded only somewhat. Problem was that transfers did not live in dorms. They have still lost almost 3,500 students! It’s not a race to the bottom but more of a stroll. Recently they have emphasized recruiting marginal students……….18 ACT score? WIU QC is doing much better than WIU Macomb. Better facilities and management do make a difference.
Comment by Old and In the Way Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 11:21 am
Universities are poor places to provide remedial education to fix K-12 HS public education deficiencies. JCs, and perhaps remedial HS night classes to improve skills, and the most cost effective way of doing that.
That “mission” should not be subsidized by the taxpayers because it’s so wasteful and ineffective.
Those institutions that cannot provide the services that will productively attract students should either downsize and change their vision and mission to one they can accomplish, or simply close their doors if they can’t.
The state can no longer afford to subsidize failing institutions and students not able to achieve college level success to avoid reasonable reform.
Comment by Illinois Bob Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 11:34 am
- Old and In the Way - Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 10:32 am:
WIU is doing the same thing right now. They are admitting students with ACT scores as low as 18…..,,,and achieving the same predictable results as SIUC. The only difference? The President has yet to admit it’s a mistake despite the horrific academic performance of those admitted. Coupled with the budget fiasco and a crumbling infrastructure ( they want to tear down more vacant dorms but can’t afford to) WIU is well on its way to becoming 4,000 student campus again. A long and sad decline from the 12,000 students of just a few years ago.
However, the governor likes it! He just appointed the President to the IBHE! Why take the blame when you can get the university president to do your dirty work for you willingly but unwittingly? Pathetic leadership at some of our universities.
Excellent post! And yes, I am very aware of what is going on and what has gone on in the past at WIU. This President is unfortunately continuing a ‘tradition.’
Comment by Federalist Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 11:34 am
==I had no idea that SIU offered a major in fermentation science, with breweries popping up everywhere, that is a selling point for SIU.==
Wineries too. The Carbondale winery trail is worth the trip. Best to have a non-drinking driver or take a bus tour though.
http://www.bowersockphoto.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Winery-Wedding-121.jpg
Comment by Joe M Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 11:34 am
SIU needs to upgrade admission standard to keep their reputation as a class academic facility.
Comment by Downstate hack Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 11:42 am
Yet, in spite of what has been happening at SIU, I know of several recent graduates from my small town just north of Carbondale who have been accepted into top Medical and Law schools, in addition to other rigorous and selective graduate programs.
And these students could have chosen to attend any Big 10 university or any quality private colleges for their undergraduate degree. SIU was their choice, after being heavily recruited and given access to the coursework and research work they needed to succeed.
Comment by illini Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 12:21 pm
I have been worried about SIUC for decades. This is not a 15 yr old problem. The universities’ failed strategy has blighted the entire region. I am not sure the school can be saved. Regrettably.
Comment by blue dog dem Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 12:22 pm
Old and In the Way——I find it hard to believe that at one time the average ACT at WIU was 26. VERY HARD TO BELIEVE.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 12:54 pm
Believe it or don’t, it’s their data but considering that a 24 was the required minimum it would seem that an average of 26 is plausible. Numbers came from WIU in the 80’s. Remember the top score is a 36. Recent and current ave is much lower according to WIU.
Comment by Old and In the Way Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 1:27 pm
== I am not sure the school can be saved. ==
Blue dog, that is a pretty dire thought. I think WIU and EIU might be more in Jeopardy than SIU.
Comment by Saluki Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 1:52 pm
Self-reflection is good.
Comment by Joe Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 2:00 pm
BTW, wasn’t there a study a few years back that showed that the average ACT score of CPS teachers was about 19, far less than the state average of 20.6?
The chances of graduating from a good university with an ACT of 19 are pretty slim. I guess they hired a lot of Southern college and Chicago state grads.
Maybe that explains a lot of the problems there, as well as Rauner’s “illiteracy” comments.
Comment by Illinois Bob Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 2:09 pm
From the perspective of being an SIU-C graduate (1982) and later having worked there for 28 years I can tell you the Carbondale campus really took its precipitous slide starting in the late 1980’s when John Guyon took over the helm as Chancellor of the campus. Sadly, but not surprisingly, the situation continually deteriorated under the assorted administrative hacks that followed.
Comment by Williamson County Resident Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 2:51 pm
Saluki. You know this is the dirty little secret that has been kept in the closet. Stinks of racism. But no one. And I mean no one talks about the social woes that is now Carbondale. Are you following the sales tax dilemma? Seen much new residential construction other than university? Big trouble brewing….and I don’t mean Big Muddy..
Comment by Blue dog dem Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 2:59 pm
Old, I don’t believe 24 was the minimum to get admitted to WIU. As Bob posted, the average is around 20.6. I think the guidelines are now changed, but previously a lot of kids didn’t take the ACT becuase they didn’t plan to attend college. No way you needed a 24 to go to Western.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 3:00 pm
There is no such thing as “Trickle Down” because the trickle never goes to the lower branches..
Comment by Mama Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 3:07 pm
Many years ago both Kentucky and Missouri offered students in the southern 15 counties of Illinois the same tuition as in-state students at Murray State and Southeast Missouri State. As a result, many people who would have gone to SIU selected out of state schools. Also, the community collages took in many potential freshmen from SIUC. The demographics have been against the school ever since.
Comment by Classof'64 Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 3:33 pm
Classof64 - Exactly right. My nieces, ok only two of them, did exactly the same - one at Murray the other most recently at SEMO. Each excelled in their chosen fields and are are doing quite well now.
Yet, if not mistaken, SIUE does offer instate tuition to residents of Missouri.
Comment by illini Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 3:45 pm
Old and in the Way: “WIU QC is doing much better than WIU Macomb. Better facilities and management do make a difference.”
Yeah - about that.
Since 2008 the State of Illinois has spent $60.4 million building the first two “phases” of the WIU-QC Riverfront campus. In addition, since 2008, WIU has expended an additional $60 million or so sustaining operations on said campus bringing the total amount “invested” in the WIU-QC campus enterprise between 2008-2015 to a tad over $120 million.
Here are the official WIU-QC on-campus FTE (Full-Time Equivalent) enrollments for Fall 2008 through Fall 2015 taken directly from WIU’s Institutional Research and Planning Office:
2008: 700
2009: 731
2010: 715
2011: 699
2012: 631
2013: 670
2014: 685
2015: 638
As you can see from these figures the number of full-time students enrolled on campus at WIU-QC has declined significantly since Fall 2008.
The WIU administration claims that the QC campus is growing by combining on-campus FTE with what is known as “WIU-QC Extension” FTE (i.e. online courses). They began doing this only in 2008; prior to then they did not recognize separate categories of “QC Extension” and “Macomb Extension.” Instead, they lumped all online enrollment figures into a SINGLE category: “Extension.”
Why is this important? Because when you add “WIU-QC Extension” enrollments to the on-campus numbers listed above the QC enrollment picture looks much better:
2008: 758
2009: 807
2010: 811
2011: 777
2012: 747
2013: 846
2014: 931
2015: 942
But here’s the thing: approximately 90% of all courses taken online by “WIU-QC students” are taught by faculty based in Macomb.
In short, WIU-QC couldn’t function were it not for the faculty in Macomb. (The reverse is not the case.)
Or, to put it another way, the WIU-QC’s enrollment “growth” is almost entirely a product of a change in accounting methods introduced by the WIU admin in 2008-09 - at precisely the time they were lobbying the Quinn administration hard and heavy for the construction of Phase I of the QC Riverfront campus.
As someone else might say, “Think on that.”
Comment by Charles Dexter Ward Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 3:50 pm
I am going to push back a bit on those above who argue that public universities in Illinois have “pathetic” leadership. I recognize that there have been significant missteps. SIU leadership is acknowledging some bad decision-making. However, I have been pretty impressed by the leadership displayed during the budget impasse. There is no playbook for university leaders in this current budget climate. They had to cope with over a decade of declining support from the state. And then universities basically had to operate this past year with zero state support. I think they did a laudable, even MacGyver-like, job in keeping the lights on, getting courses taught, and students on course to graduate. Illinois public universities are, on average, still better than those in any surrounding state.
Comment by Scamp640 Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 4:07 pm
Big exhale.
I feared the two mistakes were accepting me and graduating me.
Comment by Michelle Flaherty Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 4:23 pm
SIU offers an in-state tuition rate to students from all of Illinois’ border states.
Comment by Old Southern Dawg Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 4:29 pm
My attempt at snark. SIUC never the same after Halloween was curtailed.
Comment by Blue dog dem Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 4:30 pm
I’m not an university administrator but a semi-retired lawyer so I confess that I was not aware of the bookkeeping chicanery. As a former lawyer, and adjunct at UIUC, I will say I’m not surprised at this. Not surprised that they did it and not surprised that neither IBHE nor the Quinn administration didn’t question it! IBHE is a far cry today from what it was even 10 or 15 years ago and the Quinn administration meant well but couldn’t find their butt with both hands and a flashlight!
Comment by Old and In the Way Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 4:55 pm
@scamp640
=Illinois public universities are, on average, still better than those in any surrounding state.=
I think that grads of Purdue and Indiana may take issue with that, as well as grads of Iowa and Iowa State. Wisconsin does pretty well as well. Overall it’s rated ahead of UIUC. Michigan has UM and MSU.
Illinois just has one “power 5″ public university, UIUC. ISU is probably No 2, with NIU or UIC taking up No. 3. None of those compares favorably to Purdue, Indiana, Iowa or Iowa State.
Comment by Illinois Bob Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 5:00 pm
President Dunn is a smart guy and appears to be doing all the right things for SIU in the current climate. He was a fish out of water when he was State Sup’t and was trying to do the job and also get along with Blago’s “administration.”
Comment by Arthur Andersen Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 6:52 pm
Thanks, Bob, for being such a supporter and advocate of your Alma Mater !!!!!
Comment by illini Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 7:37 pm
I still cheer the day my little girl chose Eastern over SIU. While friends graduated from SIU, it’s still a party school from a city that seems to go from love for SIU to barely concealed loathing. And yes, still a party school. So happy she went to Eastern. SIU and Carbondale need to clean up the crime and their collective act and just make it a calm place for students to go to school and not try to become Harvard.
Comment by The_Equalizer Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 8:30 pm
With Murray state in KY and Southeast in MO, having tuition and housing at about 25% less than SIU. Community colleges in the area. SIU-C is not attracting the local Students. With the high Crime rate and several shootings a week. It hard to attract students. I will again be condemned as a Racist, but Carbondale is know as LiL Chicago. http://www.onlyinyourstate.com/illinois/more-dangerous-towns-il/ With a city with 26,000 people when school in in session. The Crime rate is astronomical. Last semester they where having several people a week shot close to the campus. The administration at SIU-C is trying with the new president but Crime is a major factor!!
Comment by SIU-C Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 11:09 pm
It’s not “self-criticism” when you criticize your predecessors, that’s called “throwing someone under the bus.”
Comment by Just a guy Wednesday, Jul 27, 16 @ 6:55 am