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Do you think the Democrats ought to get behind at least a modest income tax increase, even at the risk of a long overtime fight with Gov. Blagojevich? Explain.
posted by Rich Miller
Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 9:32 am
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Previous Post: Not enough
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no clue. but this feeds into my impression that illinois is politically schizophrenic. sometimes, we see absolutely brilliant politics and then there are cases (like the budget fight) where i’m left wondering if there are any real political leaders in the state. it’s so frickin’ easy to look like a leader when most people agree with you…
Comment by bored now Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 9:49 am
Yes. The Governor is wrong to oppose a higher income tax on higher incomes. Most Democratic districts (and certainly voters) pay less, not more, with a 5% income tax and a higher personal exemption and earned income tax credit. Raising taxes on high incomes for education and other investments is good policy and good politics for almost all Democratic legislators.
Comment by Dan Johnson-Weinberger Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 9:54 am
Heck yes. And a broader sales tax, too. Wishing hard through closed eyes doesn’t make the multi-billion $$ budget deficit vanish, or fix the pension underfunding. If grt is truly off the table, gaming (gag) and undoing single sales factor alone won’t even get us even, much less in a place where there is anything left for schools. Or health or human services. Or EITC. Courage and vision!
Comment by A. Potter Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 9:54 am
No. The State can not afford a long overtime fight. Don’t waste even more money. Let’s just wait and see what the deep cuts will be the Governor threatened.
Comment by Mr. Ethics Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 10:08 am
DJW is absolutly correct. The Gov’s hardline position was not defensible when he first ran, let alone now. The reality of the state’s precarious fiscal situation dictates otherwise. We would be in a far better situation if the state paid its obligations on a “pay as you go” basis. This failure goes back several previous administrations. It’s caught up with us now; we need to extricate the state from this long-term fiscal irresponsibilty which must be shared by the administration and the legislature.
Comment by Larry McKeon Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 10:14 am
No.
Mr. Blagojevich likes to fight, not compromise. Everyone around him has taken eye gougings, hits to the solar plexus, groin shots and punches. Even before he made his proposals, Mr. Blagojevich pulled on his silk boxers, head gear and boxing gloves to take on all those who questioned him. He set the tone - and it was not a tone of constructive compromise. It was not a tone of gubernatorial competence. It wasn’t even democratic; while crowds clamored for energy rate relief, he ignored them - too self righteous to even listen. His bus tours converted few but his attitude turned off thousands.
Governor Blagojevich likes to fight. The time has come for Democrats to focus on their interests, pass a budget with no tax increases, and ignor the governor who behaves like Earnest T. Bass. The hope by then could be that Mr. Fitzgerald will be in the boxing ring with Mr. Blagojevich and the Governor will have finally met his match. After three years of training, Mr. Fitzgerald knows exactly where to hit this guy.
Life will go on with Mr. Blagojevich. The sooner the Democrats move on, the better it will be for all.
Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 10:26 am
Blago is starting to look like a younger version of Dubya, only with a nicer haircut and a bigger security detail. Surrounding yourself with yes men - especially at a higher staffing level - is a recipe for disaster. His deputies and advisors should sit him down over dinner and forces him to wake up. Until then, session rages on.
Comment by Team Sleep Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 10:51 am
Larry McKeon is partially correct. I am assuming this is Democratic State Rep. Larry McKeon-yes the terrible fiscal situation the state is in does go back to just about every administration you could name include Blagojevich and his many new unfunded programs. But the issue is yes a tax increase is needed. Both sides know it. So lets admit it not point fingers and vote it in as long as its not for new programs but helps retire the debt.
Comment by JW Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 10:54 am
Yes. It would make for fascinating politics to see if Blago has the “Testicular virility” to veto an income tax hike like he campaigned on/threatens constantly. Plus we’d love to see what drastic budget cuts Blago has in mind.
Comment by Ravenswood Right Winger Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 11:01 am
You all know as well as I do that, if there is a tax increase, there will new programs and nothing will be done to retire the debt. This governor cannot control his daily campaign for the next election so he will continue to rape every source of income, legally or not, to promise the world to everyone. If we cannot stop his psychotic need to purge the state of every last penny, we can at least keep new sources of money out of his hands.
Comment by i d Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 11:06 am
No, absolutely not.
A flat income tax, as permitted by the Constitution, will be a tax felt only by the middle class, mostly the middle-middle class.
Wealthy taxpayers will not feel the pinch of a flat income tax increase and the so-called poor and working class will get EITC relief, a liberal Dem fave loophole. Businesses will go free despite evidence of appalling undertaxing of many Illinois business enterprises. There is no evidence that money poured into the schools will get better teachers or better schooling. What it will get is huge teacher and school administrator raises unconnected to actual performance and actual student learning. The Chicago Teachers Union has just re-elected a leader who is starting to signal that large raises will be demanded in upcoming negotiations–obviously, the CTU is keeping an eye on the potential riches which may flow from this legislative session. And Chicagoans would like their fellow Illinoisians to pay for as much of these Chicago educator raises as possible.
Rather than pay higher income taxes on top of higher gas and electricity rates, let’s see Blago’s huge state management corps manages in real world conditions. Let them find the right places to cut and economize and see how they do before we provide them with more money to waste.
And they’ve wasted a lot.
Comment by Cassandra Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 11:12 am
I suggest giving higher taxpayers a bulk/volume discount.
Comment by Wumpus Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 11:49 am
No. A delay in increasing education funding will allow legislators to attach real strings to the funding increases such that the money is not wasted by corrupt, inefficient school boards and districts.
The state should prioritize its spending with debts (including pension obligations) coming before any spending. Then public safety should be funded then every other budget item should be rated as to how important it is. When the state runs out of money, items lower on the list simply get deferred ’till next year. Will it cause suffering? Yes. Hopefully the political pressure will cause the legislators to act responsibly.
Comment by cermak_rd Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 11:49 am
Absolutely not! New taxes will only realize new programs and do nothing to get the state our of its financial mess.
What has actually occurred during the Blagojevich administration. Higher fees on just about everything + plus raids on dedicated funds = expanding expenditures
Lets get serious and actual see and realize the cuts to get the budget in line. I don’t it will be that “painful”
Comment by bankman Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 12:01 pm
No, not because new taxes aren’t needed, but because Blago has shown zero willingness to compromise on this issue. I buy YDD’s theory that somewhere in his deluded head he still dreams of the White House, and he figures an income tax increase is the kiss of death. Plus there is that little problem that he has staunchly campaigned against it, so it would be a lead weight for his reelection. I wouldn’t be surprised if Blago smells a trap here - he hikes income taxes to placate Madigan, and then Lisa challenges him in the primary and subtly or not-so-subtly raises the subject of his broken promise. Politically there are all kinds of good reasons to believe Blago would “triangulate” away from his own party, veto the income tax increase, and then you’ve got a bunch of Dems on record for a tax increase that didn’t even occur.
The income tax increase is coming, but it doesn’t seem likely to happen under Blago. But who knows. With today’s headlines, maybe in a year or so we can get Pat Quinn to sign this thing.
Comment by ZC Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 12:08 pm
What is painful is that, today, kids in poor areas have bad schools. They have worse teachers than kids in wealthy areas. And therefore, they are less likely to get into a college and earn wealth. What is painful today is that annual double-digit increases in tuition at every college and university in Illinois, due primarily to flat and declining state investment, has put college financially out of reach for lots and lots of young students. And what is painful is that our economy and therefore our quality of life suffers because of an under-investment in our greatest asset: our people. That’s dumb policy and that is what an income tax increase on income above $54,000 will bring. That figure, by the way, is the cutoff in HB/SB 750 between paying more in taxes and paying the same or less as one does today.
Comment by Dan Johnson-Weinberger Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 12:10 pm
They should cut spending first. Then discuss raising taxes. I don’t trust any of the Democrats at all; I barely trust the Republicans but that doesn’t matter since they don’t really have a dog in this fight.
Comment by Jechislo Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 12:13 pm
It doesn’t matter. At the rate at which budget discussions are going, with the three inflated egos we have roaming around the Capitol (Blagojevich, Madigan, Jones), the cicadas will be long gone before any sort of compromise is reached.
Comment by Same Old, Same Old Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 12:16 pm
No, the State government has not shown any ability to be fiscally responsible, so any increase in tax will just lead to more new spending programs and Illinois back in the same fiscal boat in a few years.
Comment by RMW Stanford Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 12:24 pm
The tax swap is a bad idea to begin with, as a 7% cap (if it passes) would eclipse the 20% cut in HB750 within three years. And then what? For me, a property tax decrease with an increase in income tax for myseld and for my wife would still be a tax increase. I guess I don’t understand why we’re in a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation. State government has just exploded over the past few years. And for what? I don’t see any improvements.
Comment by Team Sleep Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 12:28 pm
I have sort of a different take on the question.
If there was agreement among the Ds, including the Governor, I believe an income tax increase could be done fairly easily, probably even a structured roll call with some R votes. Because no single vote would be so dear, some discipline on spending could probably be exercised.
However, if the vote is contentious, new spending will be everywhere, because each vote is precious and each legislator knows it.
Comment by steve schnorf Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 12:46 pm
Not one penny more until they first reform the greedy government employee union millionaire pension racket that poor Illinois taxpayers should not have to pay. Not one penny more for education until there is a simple process to get rid of bad teachers at a higher rate than two per year in the entire state. Not one more penny until they stop taxing poor people. Not one more penny until they tell Illinois taxpayers exactly how the money is being spent and stop passing legislation without reading it. Not one more penny until they stop giving family, friends, campaign workers and campaign donors lucrative do-nothing jobs.
The state brought close to $5 billion in additional tax revenues in 2006 and they are on pace to bring in an additional $2 billion for 2007. A lot of that increased tax revenue is coming from electricity taxes and gasoline taxes. Does anyone actually think Illinois Democratic leadership cares about poor people more than they care about enriching government employees/campaign workers? Think again. If we can’t trust them to lift a finger to act on their own way too high electricity and gasoline tax rates that hit the poor the hardest, we certainly should not trust them with another penny of our money.
Comment by Jeff Trigg Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 12:47 pm
No new taxation without a reform in how the state money is spent.
That is a pipe dream. Take a look atthe bloated Cook County budget and their problems. They can’t seem to hire 6 figure assistant’s fast enough. Will thhat kead to a solution, I don;t think so.
Regardless of which of the proposed taxes will be enacted, bad spending habits, mission creep and cronyism will consume the new revenue stream and the dance will start again. This time from a less palatable list of choices.
A time is coming where there will be no new taxes to add, what will be the choice then?
Comment by plutocrat03 Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 12:48 pm
HB750/SB750 hikes taxes on the poor, especially renters, and anyone telling you different in flat out lying or too stupid to be commenting. You can’t even use “fuzzy math” to try to turn HB750 into a tax cut bill for the poor. The Governor is absolutely right about HB 750. It will hit the middle class and the poor the hardest.
If kids in poor areas have bad teachers, why do the teachers unions and Illinois Democrats refuse to do anything about it other than give those exact same bad teachers higher salaries and more benefits? “You’re doing a lousy job, here’s a big fat raise.” Yeah, more money without a single reform is exactly what we need. But no, Illinois Democrats are passing even more pension sweeteners and benefit boosters.
Comment by Jeff Trigg Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 1:00 pm
Jrff, who should pay for government employees pensions, then? And, btw, the largest single state pension problem is that the poor Illinois taxpayers haven’t been paying their owed share for 30 years.
Comment by steve schnorf Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 1:03 pm
No. No increase in any tax, fees, etc. As I have said before, the current tax system is the result of 1974 economic structures. The fabric of taxing and fees should be rewoven to reflect today’s economic realities. The shift to service from manufacturing is just one example. The patchwork of bandaid fixes such as fee increases, bonded indebtedness, rolling debt forward from one FY to the next, raiding dedicated funds and sweeping them into the GRF, all are unsatisfactory pseudo solutions. Illinois needs to overhaul its taxing system, eliminate the property tax, and demonstrate real cuts in spending. The fiscal condition will not improve if taxes are increased without modernization of the process and underlying foundations. No, no increases until this is accomplished !
Comment by A Citizen Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 1:04 pm
Dan Johnson-Weinberger,
And will more money make the poor districts better? Lead to rising AYP percentages? Lead to recruiting better teachers? How is the Leg going to ensure that those good outcomes occur and that the money is not wasted?
Chicago already pays better than many downstate schools, yet has a lower AYP than them. So do Morton, Proviso and several other suburban school districts. And with NCLB tarring schools and the teachers who teach in them as failures, even if the failure is more frequently in the parents and guardians of the students, how do you recruit qualified teachers into poorer districts?
Comment by cermak_rd Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 1:44 pm
Jeff, raising the personal exemption and creating a tax credit built off the EITC cuts taxes on the poor. You know that. The latter is part of SB 750. You also know that. There should be a renters credit as part of any property tax relief. But it’s not true to say that SB 750 raises taxes on the poor and middle class (if you define middle class as earning $54,000 or less).
Comment by Dan Johnson-Weinberger Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 1:45 pm
Government employees should pay for their own retirements like the rest of the real world. Are you saying taxpayers OWE government employees lucrative pensions when they don’t even have enough leftover after taxes to save for their own retirement? That’s the exact type of greed we are seeing from Democratic leadership in this state. That type of entitlement attitude is the real reason for the budget “crisis”, not that we aren’t paying enough taxes. Are government employees going to pay for my retirement from their paychecks?
Illinois has one of the lowest employee pension contribution rates in the US, and while many states are moving away from pensions in favor of 401k type programs, Illinois is passing more pension and benefit sweeteners every year. Asking the people that get the benefits to pay more for them is a better place to start than with single moms making $7/hour.
I think the poor Illinois taxpayers certainly have paid more than their fair share for government pensions. It’s the politicians and their government employee minions that chose to spend that money on frivolous things. And the general public knows that all too well.
Comment by Jeff Trigg Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 1:45 pm
I think the two or three major accountability proposals that were released in the last week or so should all be implemented. I think the Civic Federation had one on financial accountability and a bunch of groups released one called the Burnham Plan for education. With those reforms, I think educational outcomes will improve. And my personal interest is ensuring that with the new money we get a longer school day and a longer school year.
Comment by Dan Johnson-Weinberger Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 1:51 pm
Read the new “Burnham Plan for a World Class Education” proposal for quality and accountability reforms–it adds enough strings on the money to satisfy almost anyone. If money doesn’t make a difference, why are most North Shore public schools spending three times more per pupil than many south suburban and downstate schools? Of course money matters–it pays for reading specialists, smaller first grade classes, arts education, and teacher mentoring, all of which boost student achievement. That’s why wealthy districts spend money on them. Schools without a rich property tax base should get a chance to hire reading specialists and have small classes, too, so their kids can learn enough to contribute to the state economy.
We need a hybrid plan to raise needed revenue, with increased EITC to fix the current regressivity, a grt at least as an AMT, and a pension obligation bond plan to impose debt payment as a priority. Prop tax rebates are expensive, inefficient, failed attempts to curry political support. Maybe the Gov could rename the grt and try again?
Comment by A. Potter Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 1:59 pm
I agree with Jeff. A little control should be exercised to help schools. At some point, the overall public education pension structure and the rate of pay and benefits for school administrators needs to be addressed. Illinois’ lawmakers should stop treating these issues like they are the third rail.
Comment by Team Sleep Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 2:02 pm
In HB 750 the Family Tax Credit was reduced from SB 750 levels, and even the higher SB 750 tax credit levels hit people under $54,000. I’ve got a feeling you’re talking about families of four and ignoring poor, single people (mostly older people on the cusp of retirement or the young trying to start families) that will get hit massively by HB 750 at levels below $25,000 per year. I’d consider someone making $18,000 per year poor, especially in Cook County, yet if they are single, they would see their income tax increase under HB750. So maybe 1/4 will see no tax increase in HB750, but 3/4 of people will and that will include the middle class and poor. A blanket statement that the poor and middle class won’t get hit by HB 750 or SB 750 just isn’t accurate. Sure, you can pull out some oranges here and there to compare with apples, but there is just no way to hike taxes by $9 billion without hitting the middle class and lower which HB/SB750 will do.
Comment by Jeff Trigg Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 2:05 pm
Cermak, you’re right that social conditions outside schools affect performance. That’s why job training, housing, health care, and services for families are important–so kids have stability and eyeglasses to see the chalkboard. Better neighborhoods, stronger families, easier teacher recruitment.
Comment by A. Potter Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 2:14 pm
I’d consider a family trying to make it on 554,000 a year poor, but, for the sake of argument, let’s call it middle class. A middle class family, say, making $75,000-$100,000 a year, two kids, no defined benefit pension, ok but not great local schools. They have to save for their own retirement and likely the adults at least have to pay their own health insurance premiums (unlike, for example state employees and state legislators), not to mention college costs. When gas and electric costs go up, they have to fork out. So our ever greedy Dem legislators, eager for their own cut of whatever they can extract from the citizenry, charge them $200-$900 in extra income tax per year for….what. The promise of better schools. Better schools as a result of pouring more money on the same schools and education personnel who aren’t doing a good job already. The same tenure practices. The same refusal to fire anybody. The same incompetent, even corrupt school boards. The same principals and superintendents making $200,000 and up a year, regardless of student performance.
I’ll keep my money, thanks.
Comment by Cassandra Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 2:30 pm
Jeff - According to a study backed by the Chicagoland Chamber of Commerce, a college graduate makes an average of $20K more per year than a high school drop out. Given a choice between earning $20K a year and paying $540 a year in income taxes, and making $40K a year and paying $1800 a year in taxes, most folks I know will take the $18,740 increase in pay. How’s that for adding things up?
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 2:37 pm
And God said … “the poor will be taxed”.
Bank on it. The poor are paying for the bloated corrupt education administators. No one ever talks about capping school administrative salaries as a percentage of funding.
Comment by gg Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 2:37 pm
Jeff, I think you’ve found one demographic that does fall through the cracks of the EITC (single people), but that’s a small problem to fix. I think you are hurting the tax progressivity debate to say that 750 will tax the poor and middle class more, because a 5% income tax rate (the heart of 750) is the only way to ensure that our wealthier citizens pay their fair share so we can relieve the burden on our poorer citizens. I agree that our public pension system needs reform as well. Cassandra, how about more affordable college education? And how about better schools with better teachers and more sustainable pensions? It doesn’t help the debate (in my view) to just say no; it’s more insightful to say what efficiency reforms you need in order to justify investing in poor children. Oh, and I agree that we should have our public employees kick in more for their health care.
Comment by Dan Johnson-Weinberger Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 2:44 pm
Illinois teachers, which make up 78% of all retirees, pay 9.4% of their salaries toward their pension, the highest in the nation.
Comment by Lincoln Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 2:49 pm
Absolutely - a tax increase is desperately needed. I’m not a fiscal expert like Schnorf, but it appears obvious to me that the State is in terrible financial shape As Jim Edgar said recently, the time for a tax increase is now,or probably never, because there are no elections this year, and it’s three years until the next gubernatorial election.
Blago was ignorant to pledge no income tax increase the first time he ran because he didn’t need to make that promise to win. He was moronic to repeat this pledge again when he ran for reelection. Since his own GRT tax proposal is DOA, he would be unbelievably idiotic to veto some reasonable alternative. If he does veto a responsible revenue generating alternative, he truly will fully deserve the “black knight” sobriquet bestowed on him by the Tribune recently. A veto would confirm the Tribune’s observation that the Governor appears to have lost touch with political reality.
Comment by Captain America Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 3:03 pm
DJW, how do you make college more affordable? It’s been spiraling out of control for a long, long time. Someone with a radical agenda on how to fix the upper education system would have to come along and lay down the hammer. I don’t see the current Peanuts gallery accomplishing much.
Comment by Team Sleep Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 3:38 pm
How about we tax all churches and their affliates on their income, purchases and property? Think of the huge increase in the state coffers…plenty for K-12, health care, the whole nine yards. But -Somehow I get the feeling that a fella could get crucified for suggesting such a thing.
Comment by Slugo Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 4:06 pm
A tax is probably necessay, but unwelcomed. Something’s gotta give on this. It won’t be a property tax, probably an income tax hike. Blago’s also gonan find a way to get the business community somehow, since the GRT appears to be dead.
Comment by pickles!! Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 5:04 pm
By the gov’s standards it must be one fine day! No where near new money and no sign of real progress other than “they’re talking” except for the gov - he made himself unavailable to Madagin today. I guess he took his ball and went home. Gov, read my quips NO NEW TAXES !!
Comment by A Citizen Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 5:12 pm
NO NEW TAXES!!!! The govenor has shown no control over the budget. All he does is come up with new ways to spen taxpayers money. This man cannot be trusted with a penny more. Every penny in taxes we pay he spends (and alot more) he doesnt pay off debt or put money into underfunded pensions he uses tax money to buy votes by promising new programs that there is no money for. All Blago does is spend and spend and spend and now he wants the taxpayers to pay through the nose for it.
Comment by fed up Wednesday, May 23, 07 @ 10:36 pm
Sales tax is the only fair tax. Working men and women should not have to bear the burden.
An increase in sales tax would let everyone give, whether your working, retired, a crack head who sells dope, everyone spends money. Everyone should be required to pay their share.
Comment by Daxx Thursday, May 24, 07 @ 12:56 am
Maybe we could add sales tax to lottery tickets, and really screw poor people.
Comment by steve schnorf Thursday, May 24, 07 @ 2:45 am
yep. It’s not good politics or policy to propose health programs, expect to pay more for schools without the taxes to back it up.
His GRT failed as he proposed it. An increase to the income taxes are the fairest way of going.
Doug
Comment by Doug Dobmeyer Thursday, May 24, 07 @ 7:51 am