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* Sun-Times editorial…
The silliest lament we’ve heard this week, from the editorial page of the other big Chicago paper, is that the failure of Chicago and Illinois to win Amazon HQ2 was a repeat of the state’s failure to win Foxconn, the electronics manufacturer now building a plant across the border in Wisconsin.
As if any sensible person cannot see by now what a bad deal Wisconsin struck to get Foxconn — and how lucky Illinois was to lose that bidding war.
The real lesson of Foxconn, worth remembering as we consider what else Chicago and Illinois could have done to win Amazon HQ2, is that there’s a limit to how much a community or state should give away in return. At some point, all those tax breaks and financial incentives become a burden on the local taxpayer, a drag on the local economy and cancel out the value of whatever jobs are gained.
We don’t yet know why Amazon took a pass on Chicago, though it’s pretty clear one big negative was our state’s dysfunctional government during the tenure of Gov. Bruce Rauner. It is telling that the last big question Amazon executives put to officials in New York — the governor and the mayor — before awarding Queens a part of the HQ2 prize was whether they could stop bickering long enough to see the project through.
But to the extent that this was about money, with the subsidies of $2.25 billion offered by Illinois and Chicago falling short, so be it. A prudent city and state, confident in their many strengths — excellent universities, a top international airport, a superb workforce and the like — can’t just write bigger and bigger checks.
The taxpayer costs of these two deals is high, both in absolute terms and on a per-job basis, contrary to Amazon’s artful spin. Together, we believe they exceed $4.6 billion and the cost per job in New York is at least $112,000, not the $48,000 the company used in a selective and incomplete press release calculation.
Amazon’s statement contains a classic example of cost-benefit apples and oranges. Citing only one New York State incentive, it says the sum ‘equates to $48,000 per job for 25,000 jobs with an average wage of over $150,000…’ Of course, wages cannot be compared to tax breaks since employees pay only a small percentage of their salaries as taxes to offset the tax breaks. And the cost per job in New York is actually at least $112,000 but that is not a full accounting.
posted by Rich Miller
Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:11 am
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These corporate welfare bidding wars should be illegal as an atrociously bad use of taxpayer dollars. We should join an interstate compact with other willing states to abolish the practice of special tax breaks for clout companies.
Comment by Dan Johnson Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:18 am
Wisconsin got rooked on Foxconn, getting $3 billion for 13,000 jobs. That’s over $230,000 per job.
If we legalize marijuana we can create more jobs than Foxconn and bring ourselves maybe a half-billion dollars a year in tax revenue.
Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:21 am
Good on the Sun-Times. That Trib editorial, pining for the recently exposed Foxconn boondoggle, was pathetic even by their standards.
Comment by Natty_B Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:22 am
==At some point, all those tax breaks and financial incentives become a burden on the local taxpayer, a drag on the local economy and cancel out the value of whatever jobs are gained.==
This. All day this. Back of the envelope math tells us a citizen making $150,000 per year will pay under $7,500 in income taxes. Yes, they’ll also pay other taxes when they buy things and just live their life, but it would take a whole bunch of employees like this to make up over $2 billion in tax giveaways. Simply not worth it.
Comment by Can Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:25 am
I’m glad we didn’t have to pay the corporate extortionists for the right to house this immensely profitable company. Good riddance. We dodged another Olympic bullet. Both of these would have cost us a fortune we’d never recoup.
One of the best things to come out of this process though was the Mayor’s tenacious approach that organized the city in a way that makes it very attractive to other global business leaders. Rahm really tied it all together, linking the city’s assets, especially its cultural and education assets, in a way that is rarely done these days. Business leaders want to move to places where their executives want to live with their families and also where they’ll have no trouble recruiting a talented workforce. Rahm’s team put a great package together and regardless of Amazon, other businesses will notice and remember what Chicago brings to the table.
Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:28 am
It’s not a win for New York and Virginia when you have to rip off taxpayers to get those jobs. What’s forgotten in the numbers is : how many jobs will not be created by small and medium size businesses to subsidize Amazon.
Comment by Steve Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:29 am
Anyone think Amazon pulled a bait and switch here?
Two (big) locations is not the same as a centralized second headquarters as big as the main Seattle campus. These locations are just going to be yet another office for Amazon.
Yet they got subsidized at levels like Amazon were doing a corporate relocation, and the unemployment rate were twice what it is.
Comment by ChicagoVinny Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:29 am
Chicago was never a top competitor for HQ2. From the very start, I had not seen any media outside of Chicago even attempt to make the argument that Chicago would be in the top 10 sites.
I think too much weight is given to the “dysfunctional” state government of Illinois. Amazon is looking for areas with tons of young college graduates, pipeline schools, good transit, reasonable housing markets, and access to distribution/lobbying.
Chicago checks some of those boxes, sure, but cities in Virginia/DC area and Denver are much more conducive to those goals.
Oh and also they are pitting the states against each other to see who is going to offer the most attractive tax incentive and regulatory package. As a point of principle that bothers me to no end.
Not to mention that the “economic development” that would happen in Chicago would almost certainly burden vulnerable families, displacing them from their homes and their jobs.
I am glad to see Chicago not bending over backward for Amazon. I am not opposed to them coming here- but Illinois is a great state and Chicago is a great city, we shouldn’t sacrifice anything to lure them here.
Comment by Illinois Boy Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:29 am
Tim Bartik with the W.E. Upjohn Institute had a good article on how ineffective these incentives are from a local cost-benefit ratio.
Also, Amazon has an in-house site selection team. Does anyone think they needed an RFP from Kankakee County to know they weren’t going to locate an up to 50,000 person corporate campus there. Does anyone think they really didn’t know they were going to locate their new offices (calling them second headquarters serves no purpose but hype) by places Bezos of Borg has business assets? Also, the Foxconn “factory” was already downsized from its initial goal. It is worth keeping in mind Amazon promised “up to 50,000 jobs.” If they create 1 job, they’ve technically met that promise.
The Bartik article: https://siteselection.com/issues/2018/nov/incentives-have-we-reached-foxconn-level-5.cfm
The downsizing article: https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/business/2018/06/28/foxconns-first-wisconsin-factory-smaller-than-originally-planned/740627002/
Comment by Nuke the Whales Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:29 am
Amazon’s version of the Hunger Games is just the next level in corporate extortion that keeps building every year. Actions like theirs is one of the reasons the wealth gap keeps getting bigger. I am really tired of the Amazon’s of the world bemoaning government regulation and taxation while making ransom demands to government.
Comment by Montrose Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:30 am
Assume Amazon stays in Queens for 30 years. The outrageous cost per job metric diminishes. Plus, lots of other commerce rotates around an Amazon HQ.
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:30 am
Comments all agree, bad deal, and probably was too steep.
Something, however, needs to attract people to stay in Illinois. Thoughts?
Comment by in absentia Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:31 am
The Amazon corporate welfare is grotesque, small business-owners and average working schmucks subsidizing an enormously profitable giant owned by the richest man on the planet.
And they just went where they wanted to, anyway. The “competition” was a sham to leverage the best score.
The SOI collects about $2 billion a year from the corporate income tax — and the Illinois “deal” was to give that and more away to one corporation.
That’s what they call good government and free market capitalism in troncsylvania? Where’d they go to school, Monkey Wards?
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:31 am
Totally on board with Dan Johnson’s idea. If Congress won’t pass some domestic twist the FCPA to outlaw this stuff (and we know the Senate won’t act), states need to band together against these rip-offs.
Comment by In 630 Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:32 am
Attracting people to stay in Illinois?
How about properly funding human services- stabilizing our economy and ensuring supply of labor and demand for consumption.
The people leaving the state are low-moderate income families, because the State can’t capitalize on having the 5th largest economy in the US into creating a local market that serves people of all income brackets.
Comment by Illinois Boy Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:33 am
The selection of New York also puts to bed the idea that it’s baseline taxes that prevent businesses from landing in Illinois. Income tax is higher in New York, corporate tax rate is higher in New York. Anyone claiming we’d be getting these kinds of businesses if we just had lower taxes is wrong.
Comment by Actual Red Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:35 am
I am so glad we didn’t pay. Not to mention that the announcement would have come as two new administrations were coming on board. Saddling your successor with more than $2B for one of the richest companies on earth. Pass.
Comment by lakeside Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:38 am
Rich:
Thank you for your commentary !
Spot on !
Comment by sal-says Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:40 am
MOTOROLLA northern campus failure to launch comes to mind, what did that cost the good people of Illinois ? The question that should be asked and answered is “Would you invest your own money in his deal?”
Comment by NorthsideNoMore Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:48 am
–Anyone claiming we’d be getting these kinds of businesses if we just had lower taxes is wrong.–
They weren’t going to pay any income taxes in Illinois, so it was not an issue at all.
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:50 am
This was a complete con job by Jeff Bezos. All 3 of his houses are within 6 miles of the 2 new campuses. Relocation or expansion is based on what the CEO wants. And now Amazon has complete detailed data on all the areas that applied and they got FOR FREE!
Comment by Nitemayor Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:52 am
Illinois rips off taxpayers and doesn’t get 13,000 jobs in return.
Fair?
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:58 am
CEOs put their headquarters where they live (or want to live). This is why ADM and CAT moved their HQs to higher-tax, more expensive Chicagoland.
Chicago was never in the running unless Bezos found a house he liked here. He already had new mega-mansions in NYC and DC. Ergo they get HQ2.
This whole thing was a disgusting sham.
Comment by hisgirlfriday Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 9:59 am
Maybe someone should tell Allen Skillicorn.
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 10:00 am
Foxconn worked out great for us. It will employees Illinois residents. With the change in WI I would be glad to help with the transportation and so on.Breathed a sigh of relief on Amazon. Congestion in and out of downtown on road and rail in s ridiculous.
Comment by Not a Billionaire Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 10:03 am
“It will employees Illinois residents.”
Thanks, Scott Walker. Free jobs for Illinoisans while Wisconsin pays billions.
Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 10:10 am
As the Sun-Times points out, the Tribune editorial board is again wrong. And really after the Tribune editorial board endorsed Kennedy and then Rauner, who both lost by large margins; it certainly seems like no one pays much attention as to what the Tribune editorial board has to say.
Comment by A Jack Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 10:12 am
For a city that can afford to spend $3.5B per mile of subway, 7x more than the rest of the world, the Amazon deal is peanuts. Still waiting for the comment from Good Jobs First on those taxpayer costs.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html
Comment by City Zen Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 10:12 am
–CEOs put their headquarters where they live (or want to live).–
Always been true.
NASDAQ, the world’s first all-electronic trading platform, is one of those enterprises that some deep-thinkers tell us “could locate anywhere.”
Yet they’re in Manhattan, with the highest combined income tax rates for big-earners in the country.
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 10:14 am
I agree, Illinois may have dodged a bullet. I dislike corporate welfare.
On a side note, how much “corporate welfare” have both Chicago and Illinois paid to retain various sports franchises or to provide facilities to teams? Few people object to those dollars being spent to subsidize team owners. Wintrust Arena is just the latest example. It is the same type of thing, but hey sports fans you like the games.
Comment by Practical Politics Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 10:23 am
” We should join an interstate compact with other willing states to abolish the practice of special tax breaks for clout companies.”
Nah. Let them mess up their budgets. We should help our small and middle size business navigate the bureaucracy of both state and local governments. We will grow more jobs that way.
Comment by a drop in Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 10:29 am
Our local and state politicians should stand up to these corporations that want corporate welfare/subsidies that tax the working class for the benefit of the wealthy.
I’m especially critical of NFL team owners that want cities to pay for the construction of their stadiums. It’s a ridiculous expense for taxpayers when most of these stadiums will only host 8 football games a year when their team doesn’t make the playoffs, and at most 10 games if they have home field in the playoffs
I know that other events are hosted at these stadiums during the off season, but it really isn’t worth it for taxpayers.
Comment by Ike Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 10:30 am
Re: Foxconn: that 13,000 job estimate is now looking a tad high - they’re going to automate the plant and the current est. has been downward-revised to 3,000.
The Times (and the U.S. edition of The Guardian) have been publishing both reporting and opinion pieces on the bad deal NYC in particular made for half-HQ2. New Yorkers have caught on, and they’re going to make the move painful for the Gov and the Mayor, and possibly for Amazon itself.
Comment by dbk Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 10:37 am
–Few people object to those dollars being spent to subsidize team owners.–
Might want to check with the Ricketts on that.
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 10:42 am
Subsidized Corporate HQs, sports stadiums & other boondoggles are a ridiculous waste of taxpayer dollars - the ROI is terrible
Comment by PP Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 10:47 am
13,000 jobs times $75,000 = $975 million in wages. Taxes paid to the state, sales taxes recognized from all those purchases, real estate values boosted, more funding for the schools and on and on.
That $975 million in wages is one year, feel free to do the math for 5-10 years.
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 10:49 am
If we’re going to ask every man, woman, and child living in Illinois to pony up $380 each to do something — we should at least try to make it something better than making Jeff Bezos richer.
Comment by Anon Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 10:51 am
-The selection of New York also puts to bed the idea that it’s baseline taxes that prevent businesses from landing in Illinois. Income tax is higher in New York, corporate tax rate is higher in New York. Anyone claiming we’d be getting these kinds of businesses if we just had lower taxes is wrong.-
Governor Cuomo seemed to think the tax burden makes a difference. From the NYT:
“Gov. Andrew Cuomo defended the deal, arguing that New York has to offer incentives because of its comparatively high taxes. At 6.5 percent, New York’s corporate income-tax rate is only modestly higher than Virginia’s 6 percent, according to the Tax Foundation. But other business and individual taxes are higher in New York.
“It’s not a level playing field to begin with,” Mr. Cuomo said in an interview Tuesday. “All things being equal, if we do nothing, they’re going to Texas.””
Comment by Wally Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 11:00 am
===if we do nothing, they’re going to Texas===
lol
Sounds like CYA to me to justify the mountain of cash about to be shoveled out the door.
Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 11:14 am
–13,000 jobs times $75,000 = $975 million in wages. Taxes paid to the state, sales taxes recognized from all those purchases, real estate values boosted, more funding for the schools and on and on.–
You clearly know nothing at all about the tax break package that was offered. EDGE credits would have plowed employee individual income taxes into Amazon’s coffers, while the city and county were handing out huge property tax breaks.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-met-illinois-amazon-tax-incentives-20171023-story.html
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 11:16 am
I can do math Word
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 11:19 am
Anyone who believes that the average wage of those 25,000 jobs will be $150,000 is smoking something that is still illegal in Illinois.
Comment by striketoo Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 11:29 am
–I can do math Word–
Can you? Because judging by your post, you seem to have calculated greatly increased tax revenues paid by Amazon from the proposed deal, when in reality the whole point of the exercise by Amazon was to add others’ tax dollars to its bottom line.
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 11:30 am
Always amused when the electorate wants local and state leaders to bring jobs, but then complain about giving out “corporate welfare” or tax breaks to attract them.
You don’t want to subsidize big corporate? Fine, but Illinois isn’t doing anything meaningful, and I don’t know that it ever has, to help grow small and medium sized businesses either. Certainly hasn’t been happening the last 20 years.
Comment by Shemp Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 11:32 am
The anti-Amazon and pro-taxpayer sentiments in the comments are interesting, and refreshing.
Amazon will continue to be a disruptor in many ways as long as it’s allowed.
“To widen the market and to narrow the competition, is always the interest of the dealers…The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it.” The Wealth Of Nations, Book IV Chapter VIII, p. 145, paras. c29-30. (https://www.adamsmith.org/adam-smith-quotes/)
Comment by cdog Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 11:47 am
Jeff Bezos earns more money in 150 days than offered by New York and Virginia. It’s like seeing Miss Kitty pay Rockefeller to be a girlfriend.
We’re Chicago. If Bezos thinks we’re not good enough for him, he can bite us.
Comment by VanillaMan Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 12:01 pm
And we don’t want the Olympics either.
Comment by Excessively Rabid Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 12:05 pm
The city-taxes-for-corporate-benefit racket was on full display in the Second Ward last night
https://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/archives/2018/11/15/more-than-100-people-showed-up-at-a-public-meeting-in-order-to-save-the-hideout
https://blockclubchicago.org/2018/11/15/the-hideout-could-get-landmark-status-but-supporters-still-want-lincoln-yards-plan-to-slow-down/
– MrJM
Comment by @misterjayem Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 12:10 pm
The environmental damage from Foxconn won’t stop at the WI/IL border.
Comment by Cheryl44 Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 12:25 pm
NYC nailed all the requirements but the last one. Cost of living, housing availability and crime stats. are lower in other places and the commute is going to be trying to say the least. In all I think it was just a big sham to watch cities fall all over themselves for the Amazon peoples amusement.
Comment by Ginhouse Tommy Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 12:35 pm
Dozens of supporters of a dive bar should thwart a huge economic development project that will create a lot of high paying jobs in Chicago?
Reads like an Onion headline.
They aren’t going away? Can’t they patronize another dive bar?
Comment by Lucky Pierre Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 12:36 pm
Shemp - so taking money from the working class to soak the wealthy is the only way to grow IL’s economy?
How has supply side/trickle down/voodoo economics (what ever term you prefer), worked for the average American? Hmmm.
Comment by Ike Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 12:38 pm
–Always amused when the electorate wants local and state leaders to bring jobs, but then complain about giving out “corporate welfare” or tax breaks to attract them.–
Where do you see that Strawman here?
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 12:51 pm
==Can’t they patronize another dive bar?==
First they came for The Hideout, and I did not speak out.
Then they came for Exit…
Comment by City Zen Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 12:57 pm
Did you think people were going to start paying attention to your blather now that you’re unemployed, Lucky?
Not a chance. In addition to being clueless and ignorant, now your comments are also irrelevant.
Tough break.
But in the spirit of comity, here’s a free a resume tip just for you: “lickspittle” has two t’s.
– MrJM
Comment by @misterjayem Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 12:57 pm
We’re Chicago according to VanillaMan so Bezos can bite us.
Tell us again the amount of debt Chicago has.
Word, I know math, but go ahead and multiply $975 mil a year by just 5, factor in your concession numbers and show us the net result.
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 12:59 pm
–Word, I know math, but go ahead and multiply $975 mil a year by just 5, factor in your concession numbers and show us the net result.–
If you’ve done the math, Copernicus, just go ahead and dazzle us.
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 1:07 pm
Anonymous 12:59, you seem to think that the government simply collects taxes and that it’s pure profit. That money just goes back into maintaining things. More people means more garbage pick up, more wear and tear on the roads, more teachers and cops etc.
Comment by Da Big Bad Wolf Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 1:19 pm
==Wealth Of Nations, Book IV Chapter VIII, p. 145, paras. c29-30. (https://www.adamsmith.org/adam-smith-quotes/)==
Maybe loan Rauner your copy of the Wealth of Nations. He’ll have time to finally read it now.
Comment by Da Big Bad Wolf Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 1:26 pm
how does giving tax breaks to a non exsistent company hurt a state? the state isnt writing a check for 2 billion. while they may offer 2 billion in cuts they will get revenues further…otherwise they get 0….0 is 0
Comment by bobby Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 1:35 pm
==how does giving tax breaks to a non exsistent company hurt a state?==
See headline.
Comment by Da Big Bad Wolf Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 1:38 pm
===Then they came for Exit…===
Meh. I remember when Exit used to be on Wells Street in Old Town. It’ll survive. Punks gotta punk.
Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 3:05 pm
Dear Mr. JM, good luck saving your “dive bar”. I know the Hideout is a special place and the city would be less soulful without it. The neighborhood of North and Throop has a lot of character. It was hardly an economic black hole. Before the Sterling Bay buy out, there was a lot of economic activity there. People made steel, crushed and recycled appliances, fixed garbage trucks and fire trucks to name a few jobs.
The Hideout is like Bughouse Square and the Checkerboard Lounge had a love child. Some of us love the city for its scruffy self. I would hate if the area ended up being like the Glen, the site of the former Glenview Navel Airport. I’m glad all those merchants are making money, but the place was so syrupy sweet it made my teeth hurt.
Comment by Da Big Bad Wolf Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 3:12 pm
==I remember when Exit used to be on Wells Street in Old Town.==
Forgot about that. I knew that space better as Tequila Madhouse.
That stretch of North/Elston was not an easy place to catch a cab back in the day.
Comment by City Zen Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 3:19 pm
I am unemployed? News to me.
Comments of one the 46% of Illinois voters who did not vote for JB are irrelevant?
Comment by Lucky Pierre Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 3:28 pm
===one the 46% of Illinois voters===
So you’re speaking for McCann’s voters now too? Hilarious. Crank it down to 39 percent where it belongs, please.
Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 3:38 pm
Maybe I am being pretty simplistic. $150,000 x 5% tax = $7,500. So $2B/$7,500 = 266,667 tax years. So 50,000 jobs will need 5.3 years to cover those give aways. But 50,000 jobs do not start Day 1 so jack the years to 8 to cover build up. There are several articles saying the real cost have to include infrastucture and that $1B college campus. That is over $4B which will be tapping 12-14 years to cover the costs. Yow.
Comment by zatoichi Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 3:50 pm
Is Terry Duffy at CME Group paying attention? Probably not. Oh well
Comment by low level Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 3:52 pm
If all of the states banded together, and said no to these big companies that demand everything plus the kitchen sink, these games would stop. The tax payers are the ones paying for these companies to relocate their business to their state. Neither Amazon nor Foxconn need the tax-payers financial help to set up more distribution centers, etc..
Comment by Mama Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 4:31 pm
Scamazon
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Nov 15, 18 @ 6:06 pm