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Unclear on the concept

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Illinois

* As you probably know, appointed Rep. Mark Kalish (D-Chicago) had pledged to be pro-choice when he took retired Rep. Lou Lang’s place. Kalish said he was planning to vote for the Reproductive Health Act and even helped organize on its behalf, only to flip-flop and vote “Present” when the bill hit the floor. Rep. Kalish held a town hall meeting this week and addressed his change of heart…

“The bill contains lots of good, in terms of what the law will do for health care providers, medical professionals, insurance companies and, of course, the women in need,” Kalish said, adding that he had worked with sponsors to correct unspecified issues with the bill.

“But as the legislation was developed, it became clear to me that my Orthodox Jewish values and beliefs were not aligned with some core components of the legislation, I had to make a personal decision based on my conscience,” said Kalish, the first rabbi in the Illinois state legislature.

* And then…

When asked his position on what’s likely to be the next abortion rights issue, elimination of the requirement that girls under 18 must inform a parent or a judge they seek an abortion, he said he expected to support such a bill.

“I’m in favor of the right of the teenager,” Kalish said.

“And we can trust this?” he was asked.

“You’ll see. I don’t know,” he said.

I’m thinking that last bit isn’t gonna go over too well.

posted by Rich Miller
Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 9:32 am

Comments

Wow. I don’t think voting your conscience based on a socially conservative religion is gonna fly in a socially liberal district. If the voters can’t trust their rep to not change their mind at the last minute and not vote the district, they will get someone who will.

Comment by Ron Burgundy Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 9:44 am
Pretty reasonable to have a change of heart when confronted with legislation that ends human lives. If that’s not worth some deep internal debate and contemplation, what is?

As far as losing his office…again, if he searched his soul and couldn’t vote for the bill…why should a petty desire to retain some office override his core beliefs of right and wrong?

Comment by Liandro Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 10:03 am
Geez, dude. Pick a lane.

There’s an argument to be made, and lots of Dems used to successfully make it, about being personally anti-abortion but pro-choice as a lawmaker. Maybe, based on that, he could politically justify a present vote by saying parts of the RHA and eliminating parental notification go too far, (more liberal Jewish voters in the district might cut him some slack, even if they disagree with him.) But he’s not even trying that.

Comment by Telly Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 10:05 am
===ends human lives===

Except that it doesn’t. Let’s not pretend that’s scientifically accurate, and it’s even more foolish to pretend like that’s settled theology.

===override his core beliefs===

He took an oath promising to place quite a few things before his personal beliefs. No one forced him to take that oath of office and if he can’t keep it, he should resign.

Comment by Candy Dogood Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 10:10 am
This was a bad choice to begin with. I can’t see him rebounding from this.

Comment by Trapped in the ‘burbs Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 10:14 am
You got to stand for something or you’ll fall for anything

Comment by Yep Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 10:15 am
To all those defending the vacancy filling process, I’d like to know how they feel about this.

Comment by Just Me 2 Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 10:18 am
===To all those defending the vacancy filling process, I’d like to know how they feel about this.===

There’s an election coming up.

It’s not like there’s no facing the voters.

So, framing it that way, if he wins, or loses, the voters will decide his fate.

Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 10:20 am
“Let’s not pretend that’s scientifically accurate”

Except that it is. The unborn have their own separate DNA and genetic code. It is a clearly an identifiable unique, human life. That science has been settled for quite some time actually.

What exactly is your scientific understanding of the situation?

Comment by Liandro Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 10:25 am
“What exactly is your scientific understanding of the situation?”

That human beings live their lives outside the bodies of other human beings?

– MrJM

Comment by @misterjayem Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 10:37 am
This is like Rep. Curtis Tarver’s flip on rent control. Why specifically list your position on an important issue to your district and then fail to support it once you get to Springfield?

Comment by Lunchbox Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 10:38 am
change of heart. change of legislator.

Comment by Amalia Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 10:40 am
“That human beings live their lives outside the bodies of other human beings?”

What you just described is a location, and is a completely arbitrary (non-scientific) description.

By your definition, a preemie born six weeks early is human, but that EXACT SAME baby is NOT human if the doctor’s are able to prevent the premature birth and bring the baby to term.

That makes no scientific or logical sense. The baby’s location, whether premature or not, does not define his or her humanity.

Comment by liandro Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 10:49 am
===The baby’s location, whether premature or not, does not define his or her humanity.===

You’re using this word “baby” to describe a fetus while attempting to suggest that you’re more scientifically accurate.

So, fine, I’ll just rely on superstition to inform my views. The Bible makes it very clear that life does not begin until first breath and includes instructions for how to perform an abortion.

===born===

I wonder if this word is a verb because it implies some sort of action or changing condition.

But at this point, I think we’re just feeding a troll that won’t be happy until women have their rights restricted to please his very specific brand of dark age superstition where women are chattel.

Comment by Candy Dogood Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 11:00 am
Candy, if the only way you can discuss science is to personally insult me, then perhaps you shouldn’t respond.

As I said, an unborn human (fetus is the applicable term for only part of a pregnancy) is a unique, living human being with its own separate DNA/genetic code. Very little in your personal/emotional response even attempted to refute that or respond to it.

Who exactly is the troll here?

Comment by Liandro Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 11:13 am
Liandro

Once again what you are saying is your opinion. As is what the others are saying. I really wish people would stop pretending there are absolutes in the abortion debate. There isn’t. There’s nothing simple about it. Which is why we can never have a reasonable debate about it because people like to pretend that they, and only they, are right.

Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 11:13 am
==personal/emotional response ==

Everything about abortion is personal and emotional. To suggest responses shouldn’t be personal or emotional is just silly.

Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 11:17 am
You’ll see? I don’t know? What, is he going to flip a coin when the time comes? Why would you ever work with a legislator who seems inclined to not keep his word? If I were a fellow legislator I would think twice about working with the guy.

Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 11:24 am
The bill reached a level of queasiness for this Rep. It did for a few others as well. Reward for his (non) vote or punishment will be meted out in an election. He’ll likely win or lose based on other factors.

Comment by A guy Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 11:27 am
“To suggest responses shouldn’t be personal or emotional is just silly.”

When the personal/emotional response cancels out the ability to be civil, and more importantly the ability to process science or facts when reasoning, then it’s a problem.

Comment by Liandro Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 11:40 am
Liandro,

For humans, do we count their age from the time of their conception or when they came out of their mother’s womb? Just wondering.

Comment by Anon E Moose Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 12:30 pm
@anon,

You ask that as if the science of conception was something humans understood in the slightest when we started keeping track of our age.

For humans, do we adapt as our scientific knowledge grows, or do we refuse to acknowledge new findings? Just wondering.

Comment by Liandro Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 12:46 pm
Also, medically, babies are still generally tracked in weeks from the last menstrual period. So a woman can be pregnant…before she is pregnant.

Luckily, Pampers is here to help illuminate this example of how medicine and modern knowledge are still interacting with practical application when dealing with new, growing humans:

https://www.pampers.com/en-us/pregnancy/pregnancy-calendar/1-3-weeks-pregnant#link1

Comment by Liandro Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 12:53 pm
Jews don’t recognize a fetus as having a soul until it is born. I would be curious as to what specific portions he has a problem with and what it goes against based on Jewish law. It seems that he’s using his religion as a crutch for his personal beliefs.

Comment by ktkat Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 12:59 pm
My sons were born 10 weeks pre-mature. They were human when we saw the 15 week ultrasound, they were human at 30 weeks gestation when they were born, and they are very loud humans as 12 year olds.

Comment by ajjacksson Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 1:19 pm
Liandro,

So, the answer to my question is: when they come out of their mother’s womb? Sorry that is so hard for you.

Comment by Anon E Moose Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 1:21 pm
Anon,

The answer is by weeks until birth, and then by years. I posted a link for you and everything, but you’re more interested in being snarky than in being accurate.

“My sons were born 10 weeks pre-mature. They were human when we saw the 15 week ultrasound, they were human at 30 weeks gestation when they were born, and they are very loud humans as 12 year olds.”

Exactly. The science has backed that for decades, but our society is having a very hard time coming to terms with some of the ugly implications. The sooner we come to terms with it, the better.

Comment by Liandro Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 1:30 pm
Liandro

Again, yours is an opinion. Nothing more

Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 1:41 pm
==then it’s a problem==

To you maybe. It’s an emotional topic. You attempt to act as if it isnt. If you don’t like it or cant handle it that’s your problem and you can go away.

Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 1:45 pm
Liandro,

I think you’re missing my point. If it’s been 18 years since I left my mother’s womb, wouldn’t you say that I’m 18 years old? Not 18 years and 9 months? Or maybe you do, I don’t know.

Comment by Anon E Moose Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 1:50 pm
ajjacksson,

I’m assuming that you mean that it’s been 12 years since they left their mother’s womb.

Comment by Anon E Moose Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 1:51 pm
Demoralized, I honestly have no idea what you are saying. That an unborn doesn’t have its own DNA? Are you saying it DOES have DNA, but that DNA isn’t human? Are you saying it does have DNA, and that the DNA is human, but that it’s not unique?

Because all of that isn’t opinion, it’s been researched and discovered as fact. The unborn have their own human, unique, genetic code that is specific to them. And, for all that you’ve typed, I have no earthly clue as to whether you recognize that or not.

Given that, how can we ever move on to the “opinion” stage of what, exactly, to do with those facts?

Comment by Liandro Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 1:53 pm
My sons were human before and after they left their mother’s womb.

Comment by ajjacksson Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 2:09 pm
A zygote is “human” in the same way a fingernail is human. No one gets jail time for clipping their nails.

Comment by Quibbler Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 2:37 pm
ajjacksson,

I’m not asking if they were/are human. I’m asking how do you calculate their ages. You said they were 12 years old. I’m assuming you meant that they left their mother’s womb 12 years ago. It’s perplexing that you refuse to answer a simple question.

Comment by Anon E Moose Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 2:42 pm
Liandro,

I’m still waiting for you to advise me which language you prefer to have the women who you would make second class citizens address you with.

Comment by Candy Dogood Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 2:44 pm
Liandro and ajjacksson,

I’m also curious as to how many abandoned children you have adopted since you clearly have such a deep empathy for DNA.

Comment by Anon E Moose Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 2:49 pm
Seems to me the issue is not a member’s position on abortion, but whether a member can be held accountable after telling the public and the “appointer” one thing and then voting the opposite (a “present” vote having the same impact as a “no”).

Comment by Mike Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 2:49 pm
I do not live in Kalish’s district, but I will drive there every weekend to knock on doors for the primary opponent he will draw. He lied to his constituents and now has told him that they can’t count on his vote. Absurd.

Comment by Annon Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 3:34 pm
==I have no earthly clue==

I know. You’ve made that abundantly clear with your rehashing of the same thing over and over again hoping we’ll all suddenly see the light of day (at least as you see it).

You’re speaking as if science has settled the debate once and for all. It hasn’t. Not everyone *gasp* shares your beliefs as far as your attempt to use science in this debate. You drone on and on and then scratch your head because some of us won’t acquiesce to what you have declared to be true. And, as is usual with those of you who argue “facts,” you get frustrated that emotion comes into a discussion. You scratch your head and just can’t understand how someone cannot possibly accept what you are saying and you accuse them of ignoring “facts” and being too emotional.

This topic is an emotional one and it is not an easy one - no matter how many times you throw out the word science.

Your. Opinion.

Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 3:35 pm
==human, unique, genetic code that is specific to them==

And before you come back with scratching your head again, yes, I do believe in the science of dna. Where you leap to opinion is that the dna equates to a human being.

Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 3:40 pm
== The Bible makes it very clear that life does not begin until first breath and includes instructions for how to perform an abortion.==

That is a completely false statement. “Fake news” as the President would say.

Comment by Billy Shears Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 3:46 pm
=== ends human life===
=== Except that it doesn’t. ===

If the fetus is not a human life, then what species is it?

Comment by anon2 Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 4:03 pm
anon2,

Is an apple seed the same as an apple?

Comment by Anon E Moose Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 4:06 pm
Rep. Kalish, good luck and godspeed in the next election.

But, speaking seriously, bye.

Comment by Left Leaner Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 4:29 pm
Likely the REAL reason he had a change of heart:

https://northcooknews.com/stories/511750668-orthodox-rabbi-in-new-york-slams-kalish-s-positions-on-legal-abortion-gay-marriage

Comment by ??? Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 6:41 pm
To equate trimming one’s fingernails with aborting a fetus is a ridiculous argument. Do better.

I measure their age from the day they were born, although I frequently refer to the day they were due. It would be problematic to try to measure age from the point of conception. My guess is that that’s the reason we count age from the date of birth, not because life starts at that point

Comment by ajjacksson Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 7:07 pm
Doctors use the weight of a baby as an estimate of their gestational age, since the exact point of conception can’t be determined. All that to say that the point if conception is medically important. To say that life doesn’t begin until a baby is outside the womb is simplistic.
My wife and I would have been heartbroken if the boys had not survived. That’s because they were human.

And, I will say that I don’t do enough for abandoned children. I should do more.

Comment by ajjacksson Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 7:19 pm
===Likely the REAL reason===

That was from January.

Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Jun 27, 19 @ 9:10 pm
==And, I will say that I don’t do enough for abandoned children. I should do more.==

I think you meant to say that you don’t do anything for abandoned children because that’s not what you really care about.

Comment by Anon E Moose Friday, Jun 28, 19 @ 9:51 am
You don’t know me. For your own good, stop judging others. You have no idea what I do and what I don’t do.

Comment by ajjacksson Friday, Jun 28, 19 @ 10:02 am

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