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* Via the completely revamped and very cool looking Illinoize…
Interested in everyone’s thoughts on the new Draft Tom Cross website
Rumors have circulated for months that House GOP Leader Tom Cross is interested in a 2010 statewide bid. The message was first announced on a former staffer’s blog, which is not working at the moment. There is an admission on the new Cross blog that the website in question was, indeed, set up by Jake Parillo.
From the new Cross blog…
It’s Time for Tom is an effort to get Tom Cross, the Illinois House Minority Leader, to grab the mantle of the Illinois Republican Party and run for Governor in 2010. This movement has come out of a desire to drive change in the great state of Illinois. We’ve become fed up with the way things are: Governor Rod Blagojevich is rotten, Cook County Board Chair Todd Stroger is inept, and the Illinois Democratic Party is trying to install their sons and daughters into more leadership roles across the State.
Parillo even compares this effort to the draft Ike movement. A bit much, but whatever.
FYI, Cross’ House Republicans lost four seats last week and picked up one Democratic seat in a race that wasn’t contested by the HDem organization.
* Meanwhile…
A Democratic state senator from the Quad-Cities said he plans to spend the next three months traveling the state to determine whether he will run for governor in 2010.
Key to state Sen. Mike Jacobs’ decision will be whether he can raise enough money to compete against better-known foes.
“I think I will need to start with at least $1 million,” said Jacobs, an East Moline resident who has served in the Senate since 2005.
* More…
“If I can move into a higher office I think I can direct more money and resources back to my district,” Jacobs said.
* We’ve already talked about this one…
Bloomington Republican Senator Bill Brady on Thursday told his supporters in an e-mailed newsletter of his intentions to make another run for governor.
* Others…
State Sen. Christine Radagno is one of the other Republican names being talked about for Governor and State Sen. Dan Rutherford may run again for Secretary of State. DuPage County State’s Attorney Joe Birkett may run for Governor or Attorney General.
posted by Rich Miller
Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 9:02 am
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Re: Mike Jacobs: Any Democrat who almost punched
out Blago is worthy of a “look”….
Comment by Esteban Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 9:11 am
I don’t think I’ve ever tried to hide that I built the site - however - Cross and crew had nothing to do with it. I did this on my own.
Comment by Jake Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 9:17 am
===”If I can move into a higher office I think I can direct more money and resources back to my district,” Jacobs said.===
This statement is bizarre. He’s already alienating all but a sliver of the state population…while seeking a statewide office?
Comment by The Doc Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 9:17 am
I griped about mistreatment by SOS employees–a SOS employee made a mistake which was going to prevent me from getting services, the supervisor didn’t know what his own forms said and he threatened to have me arrested for arguing with him–to Dan Rutherford at a Romney event in River Forest. Rutherford responded with a statement I took to mean that he was running again.
Comment by Carl Nyberg Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 9:19 am
“Draft” Tom Cross? Is he reluctant? A “movement.” Quite sub rosa, so far. Like Ike? Please.
I guess if the “draft” doesn’t generate a significant “movement, ” we can expect a “Sherman-like statement” next.
Comment by wordslinger Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 9:20 am
Good God, not another bunch of state legislators! These people are all part and parcel of the dysfunction in Springfield. Not a single one has done anything but fiddle while Rome burns! We have to look outside of state government if we are to expect anything but more of the same.
Comment by abe froman Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 9:20 am
I think you should all look at State Rep JIM SACIA for a state-wide office. The time is now for the Illinois Republican Party to come up with bright, honest and new leaders to help make this a competive two party state. Rep Sacia has just been re-elected to a third term. He is a retired FBI agent and could certaily help clean up the mess in this state. We NEED new leadership.
Comment by NWillinois Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 9:21 am
From the results of the latest election, it seems a majority of Illinois voters are not very upset with the legislative majority, thus not too concerned about the inside squabbles between the legislative chambers and between the House majority and the Governor. We shall keep on keepin’ on for a while longer, probably a long while longer. Leader Cross is whistling into the wind.
Comment by Captain Flume Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 9:37 am
Cross might have unique appeal an an exurban, moderate Republican. But if he is going to do it, he should resign as Minority Leader so another member of the House GOP caucus can keep them focused on seat retention and additional pick ups in 2010.
Comment by Craig Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 9:46 am
Is it just me, or is Birkett starting to seem a little Oberweis-like?
Comment by Old Shepherd Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 10:02 am
captain–most illinoisans don’t know the dems control the legislature.
Comment by colt 45 Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 10:11 am
Friday the QOTD was about the Republican party and how to fix it. If they have any chance to succeed this next election, they must not fight each other and perhap it would be good to get everyone in the room and try to get candidates for the other offices as well.
But what will happen is nobody will budge and they will beat the heck out of each other and we will once again get shut out of all the elected positions.
Comment by He Makes Ryan Look Like a Saint Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 10:14 am
Is it too early for a Republican resurgence? Intuitively, given the Obama influence, it would seem so. But it’s not clear that the economy is going to recover by 2010 or that Obama’s plans to
fix middle class economic life will have had any measurable impact by then. Presidents are not gods
and even the Fed Treasury has its limits.
The thing is, it would be really really hard work,
to win back the governorship. Are either Cross or
Radogno, moderates who would have a chance, up for it. Thousands of chicken dinners. Begging for money daily. Exhausting days and nights across Illinois. I’m not so sure. Meanwhile, they should be hoping our Blago wins the primary…which he could do.
Comment by Cassandra Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 10:18 am
Six days after the last election and folks are amping up for 2010 already? Cross is probably a viable candidate, but does the drum beat have to start already?
Comment by Jake from Elwood Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 10:19 am
Cross for Statewide? Please…more like United States-Wide!
Comment by So ILL Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 10:19 am
Somebody please tell Billy Brady that he should abandon his gubenatorial delusions. Doesn’t he still have $600K in dept from his last tilt at windmills? Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see how a real estate developer eliminates that much debt and raises enough money to be competitive in today’s environment.
Comment by inDUpage Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 10:33 am
Tom Cross could not gain seats after the disaster of Blago and state Dems. Are people waiting with bated breath for Cross to go statewide?
Comment by Loyal Whig Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 10:34 am
I like the sound of Governor Rutherford.
Comment by photogram Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 10:40 am
Old Sheperd—couldn’t agree more. Joe is old news. Ever look at the facts, Dupage is going bluer each year Joseph, unless you have a “Technicolor Dreamcoat” you’ll be wasting your time. Plus, positions/issues aside, Brady looks like a governor, Birkett looks like a boxer (oh wait he was a boxer):)
Comment by 10th warder Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 10:49 am
I’ll second Governor Rutherford… but how about Governor Lahood? That sounds alright too. Unfortunately, I don’t think Ray will run.
Comment by Heartless Libertarian Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 11:05 am
Too many Illinois Republicans ran for statewide office, lost, and ran in a second statewide campaign, thinking that the first loss would help them win the second race. However, those candidates usually lost the second race. In 1996 and ’98, Al Salvi ran statewide races and lost both of them. In 2002, ’04, and ’06, Jim Oberweis ran statewide campaigns and lost all of them. In 2002 and ’06 Joe Birkett ran statewide campaigns and lost both of them. In 2004 and ’06, Steve Rauschenberger ran statewide campaigns and lost both of them. If Radogno, Rutherford, Birkett, and/or Brady runs for statewide offices, in 2010, they’ll lose again.
The current governor was a congressman for three terms, so the republican nominee, for governor, should be a congressman. In 2000, when then-St. Rep. Tim Johnson ran for Congress, he promised that he wouldn’t serve more than three terms, in the U.S. House. Later, he changed his mind, and, last week, he was elected to his fifth term. In 2010, Johnson should run for governor. He usually votes conservatively, and, since his district includes Champaign and Danville and parts of the Bloomington and Decatur areas, he has high name recognition in all of those cities. If he leaves Congress, St. Sen. Brady should run for Johnson’s congressional seat.
Comment by Phil Collins Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 11:06 am
Cross for governor? He couldn’t parlay strangled government, Democrat bickering, and Blagojevich disapproval ratings into any new seats. How is he going to win statewide?
Comment by Fan of the Game Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 11:25 am
Gov. Roskam?
Comment by Frank Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 11:26 am
Cross for Governor? He can’t win as minority leader with dozens of investigations, indictments & convictions at the feet of Blago and the dems and now he wants a promotion? When this becomes the party’s definition of new leadership, you know the tank is completely empty.
Comment by SangamoGOP Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 11:33 am
Add one more… Governor Kirk???
Comment by Heartless Libertarian Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 11:35 am
Kirk makes sense to me.
Nice win in a suburban Obama district. The GOP looks to be in the minority in the House for some time, so I don’t think giving up the seat is that big a sacrifice.
I’m fairly confident the U.S. Attorney is not done with the Blago Administration, so 2010 might be a good time for the right Republican.
The question is, where does he get the money, not just for the primary, but for the general election? You know whoever the Dem is will be loaded.
Comment by wordslinger Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 11:40 am
Cross’s problem is not that he lost seats in the 2008 elections. That was inevitable.
Cross’ problem is that he’s pro-choice, supports stem cell research, pushed to “reform” Illinois’ death penalty system, and above all, is a close ally of Governor Blagojevich.
That’s NOT a recipe for winning the Republican Primary.
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 11:45 am
Possible QOTD: What GOP ticket would the Dems love to run against in 2010 (U.S. Senate and constitutional officers)? What GOP ticket would be the toughest for the Dems?
Comment by Carl Nyberg Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 11:47 am
I live in Rep. Kirk’s district. I hope that he and Rep. Johnson will run. Kirk’s replacement, in Congress, should be St. Rep. Elizabeth Coulson, whose district includes Glenview and most of Northbrook, Wilmette, and Winnetka. She could win the congressional race because she and Kirk agree about many issues and because of her political experience. Last week, she was elected to her sixth term, in the state house.
Comment by Phil Collins Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 11:47 am
Cross is exactly what the GOP needs. A pragmatic fiscal conservative with moderate social views is the only GOP candidate that can appeal to a State which has trended democratic.
Comment by ice phisher Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 12:10 pm
Jacobs for Governor huh? I heard Mike Boland was thinking about Lt Gov. Maybe they’ll end up on a ticket together. Jacobs/Boland 2010! heh
Comment by Sango Dem Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 12:11 pm
Kirk certainly doesn’t have any of the Springfield stench and his military service would help blunt his more liberal stances with downstaters. He can raise more money than anyone other than a self-funder, the press respects him and he’s proven he can run a solid campaign. He could be very tough for the Dems.
Comment by abe froman Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 12:12 pm
Kirk has a safe congressional seat. Why would he risk that on a gubernatorial bid? He would have to win a primary (a difficult task for a perceived party centrist) and then an election. Not going to happen, imo.
Comment by Ela Observer Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 12:14 pm
How can someone who loses seats for years while the states economy is in the dumps and corruption is rampant think of getting a promotion? Cross will be really lucky to keep his leadership position from the calls I am hearing.
Brady? No trust. No cash. No base. No way. No chance!!!!
Kirk he can’t win state wide with his stands plus we will lose the seat. The dem’s will leave him alone next time. Roskum’s the same.
Phil do you think that Blago having $9 million when he announced had anything to do with his winning? Think back he ended up with $13 million. He went on TV downstate before Christmas 01.
If someone would have, say, $3 to 6 million RAISED or promised when they announce they will have a great chance of winning what ever party they come from. And they will keep allot of others out. anyone with less that 2 millon should look for another office.
Comment by GOPlanner Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 12:35 pm
===I’m fairly confident the U.S. Attorney is not done with the Blago Administration===
Hopefully the new U.S.Attorney, having just been appointed by Attorney General Eric Holder, will concentrate on prosecuting real criminals instead of picking on hapless politicians like his predecessor did.
Comment by Bill Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 12:50 pm
Bill, what makes Rod so hapless?
Comment by wordslinger Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 12:52 pm
Word,
Who said I was writing about Rod?
I meant Ryan,Fawell,Stanley,Levine, Hurtgen,and those poor Irish boys from Bridgeport.
Comment by Bill Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 1:13 pm
When will Deb Mell announce her intentions for a gubernatorial run?
Comment by The Doc Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 1:23 pm
I’m for ABB - anyone but Blago.
Comment by Little Egypt Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 1:42 pm
Ela Observer, you said that winning the primary would be difficult, for Kirk, since he’s a centrist. Dr. Sauerberg is a centrist, and he won a statewide primary. Ex-Treasurer Topinka is a centrist, and she won a statewide primary.
GOPlanner, yes, I think that Blago’s large campaign fund helped him win, in 2002, but his congressional experience also helped him.
Comment by Phil Collins Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 1:47 pm
===Dr. Sauerberg is a centrist, and he won a statewide primary===
Once again, a misdiagnosis. Sauerberg did not run as a centrist by any stretch of the imagination. And he didn’t have much of a primary.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 1:50 pm
===Ex-Treasurer Topinka is a centrist, and she won a statewide primary.===
And was forever damaged by it.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 1:55 pm
I don’t think that Topinka was forever damaged by winning a statewide Republican primary, I think she was forever damaged by millions of dollars spent on commercials trashing her day and night. Maybe the only good news for Republicans is the hope that Blagojevich runs again and does the same to anyone that dares run against him in the Democrat primary. If he doesn’t win the primary, the least he could do is beat up the competition for the general election.
Comment by N'ville Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 2:00 pm
Not sure any Repub can win statewide against Alexi. Cross would have a better chance than Birkett or Brady or Radagno thats for sure. At least he has kept his caucus out of being in the super minority like the Senate Republicans. Not sure if Lisa can get through a primary with Alexi if her father insists on staying in as Speaker. Right or wrong the nepitism issue will be played hard and the comparisons to Todd Stroger, Dan Lipinski and 3mil will be loud.
Comment by SoxFan Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 2:08 pm
Rich, Sauerberg didn’t say that he was a centrist, but he said that he’s pro-choice and pro-gun control. A republican politician, I know, said that Sauerberg is so liberal, he should have run in the democrat primary.
Comment by Phil Collins Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 2:40 pm
Does anyone outside of this board have any idea who Alexi is? If he is ever a contender, it won’t be for a couple more terms. Since he’s a man, he won’t face the same “no experience” rant that LM faced, despite having far less experience than she did when she ran for AG. But he still doesn’t have enough accomplishment to override any negative attacks, where he is extremely vulnerable. Dan Hynes stands a better chance than he does, despite the charisma gap.
Comment by Ann O'Namus Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 2:44 pm
Let’s be fair. StateWideTom had Blagoof, the scandals the G, etc……and did not just lose seats; he lost seats where GOPS were running for reelection or had been GOP for the past 100 years.
Now that warrants a draft!
Can we set a # for signatures needed so he can quit before we have to listen to his nonsense for another year?
Oh BTW can he release the MOUs?
Comment by EmptySuitParade Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 3:02 pm
Phil Collins, every primary is different. There may be one centrist and many conservatives on the ballot. Or one conservative and many centrists. Or some other combination.
Best-case-scenario statewide for Kirk: “Kirk” is the only name on the ballot. Not likely though. Next best-case-scenario: “Kirk” + no centrists + a large number of conservatives.
Primaries usually see low voter turnout, with a high percentage of the party faithful bothering to vote. Given Kirk’s positions on gunsgaysabortion, I’d think his only chance is to hope the party faithful evenly split their vote on other candidates. And that he picks up enough moderate voters to put him on top. Not a bet I would care to take however.
Comment by Ela Observer Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 3:09 pm
Good lord, when will Phil Collins change his tune?
He’s still sore about his guy Mike Psak and the proof that he’s a dem. He even voted in a DEM primary.
IL Right to Life does not endorse liberals. Sauerberg is pro-life. You really need to move on.
On another one of your subjects, what good does it do for Kirk and Coulson to move on to other jobs when they will vacate seats that will go right to DEMs? Which republicans will replace them? Kirk is a decent congressman and the GOP needs him to stay put and hold his seat, same with Coulson.
Comment by ChiCountryGuy Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 3:34 pm
Gov. Mike Jacobs has a nice ring to it.
Comment by Huntingwithaswitch Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 3:34 pm
To whom?
lol
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 3:36 pm
===when will Phil Collins change his tune?===
Never, I imagine.
ChiCountryGuy is right, PC, it’s time to drop that line of faulty reasoning.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 3:38 pm
The GOP faithful would embrace a Tom Cross run for something other than Governor. His track record as head of the House GOP is not inspiring. The base is looking for a leader that can redefine a party who’s brand name has been tarnished and a person that will inspire . Tom is not now seen as someone who can do either of those tasks. The base understands that in 2010, the Dem nominee wont be Rod, it will be Lisa. They will be looking at who best stacks up against Lisa. I dont know that Tom’s less-than-bold leadership makes him look like a strong opponent for Lisa. Lisa will argue that Tom Cross was closer to Blago than she was, and campaigned for his capital bill while she and her Dad cautioned for fiscal responsibility. Dont like his chances.
Comment by Sam Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 3:38 pm
Anyone in Illinois that thinks the governor should be honest!
Comment by Huntingwithaswitch Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 3:40 pm
I’m a “Dan Fan”, but I truly hope he doesn’t take on Jesse White again. Jesse has managed to be in Springfield a long time as SoS and not had too many public issues. He would be incredibly tough to defeat and I would hate to see what two failed statewide bids would do to Rutherford’s otherwise impeccable record as a legislator and businessman.
Oddly, I think Dan would have a better shot running for Treasurer or Comptroller. Hynes will likely run for Governor and there’s few dems who could make any serious run at Rutherford. Or Alexi gets tapped for a job in the ObamaNation and Dan could make an equally successful run for that office. While I’m pontificating, it’s also plausible (not likely, but plausible) that Jesse White becomes the next U.S. Senator from Illinois, Rod appoints a lame duck SoS, and then Dan renews his campaign based on a strong appeal to modernize the office and increase customer service.
All this speculation will unravel quickly when Rod gets back from his fundraiser in California and names a replacement for Barack.
Comment by DzNts Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 3:43 pm
Easy Steve err…emptysuitparade. Sounds like someone is a little defensive that Napolean was unable to get his super majority he guaranteed to anyone that would listen even with Obama winning DuPage, Will and Cook by huge margins.. Too bad the Speaker was wasting money to send people messages while Emil was able to focus his resources and talent on the races that matter and gain and hold a super majority. Now the speaker will still be unable to overide that buffoon Governor whenever he wants. Everyone likes to bust on Emil but he has demonstrated himself to be a much shrewder and successful political tactician than the Speaker the last two cycles.
Comment by Slukis Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 3:58 pm
OK, now I’ve seen everything. The Cross guys promoting Emil Jones.
Thanks. I can close shop for today a fulfilled man. lol
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 4:00 pm
Phil Collins - Tim Johnson for Governor??? God help us all if that happens.
Comment by What? Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 4:33 pm
Will Lisa run if Quinn takes the helm?
Comment by Suzanne Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 5:32 pm
Cross’ moderate views can get him elected. A conservative has no chance. He was the first to champion ethics reform. He’s telegenic and is well liked by Chicago media.
Comment by Lance Stevens Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 5:49 pm
Capt Fax:
StateWideTom’s guys have been promoting The President for the past two yeears. That’s why we don’t have a capital program.
Wow, that is a hugely impressive website —- not.
It appears the “volunteers” forgot to mention the Lee Daniels roommate era, sitting at the knee of GHR and…. We’ll just save that for another day while we marvel at the brillance of the new website.
BTW most believe StateWideTom will be hard pressed to make through the GOP primary. The tinfoil helmet wing of the party “might” knock his as a Blagoofer from day one.
If this sounds defensive then I know you have been playing on the wrong side of the ball too long.
Who is Steve?
Comment by EmptySuitParade Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 6:38 pm
Wait just a minute, my friends-AA will throw his beat up Stetson in the ring before Tim Johnson is allowed to have a shot at it.
With Sen. Bill’s endorsement (I would hope) and VMan writing my commercials (we’ll have to raise a lot of dough, cuz they’ll all run at least 2 and a half minutes) the AA-Team could be a force to be reckoned with.
I suppose the effort should start now with the release of my blockbuster book, “The Mendacity of Mopes-30 Years inside Illinois State Government.”
Comment by Arthur Andersen Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 6:53 pm
Jim Durkin - he won a statewide primary for Senate; he organized a great McCain effort in the primary; he’s been in both the house and the senate; and he has ties to both suburban and rural voter bases. Gov. Durkin has a good ring to it.
Comment by inDUpage Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 7:34 pm
the state of the GOP…lets put a guy who didn’t lose as badly as the other guys on the top of the ticket. that seems reasonable i guess
Comment by Downstate GOP Faithless Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 8:21 pm
John Shimkus?
Comment by Frank Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 9:30 pm
Dan Hynes for Governor??? The guy has absolutely no charisma, it just won’t work. Alexi Giannoulias for Governor??? Give me a break, the general public doesn’t even know who he is. Republicans need to run a Congressman for Governor!!
Comment by anon Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 9:31 pm
If anyone wants to draft Cross, Radagno or Cong. Johnson as the Republican hopeful for Governor, they should give their choice a white headband and a bottle of rice wine for Christmas. That way the victim can at least have the proper props for a political Kamakaze mission.
Comment by Randall Sherman Monday, Nov 10, 08 @ 10:06 pm
Jacobs has so many parallels to GW Bush it’s eerie. Nepotism, and the rest I’ll leave unsaid.
Now he seems to want to be more like Sarah Palin, leaping to shoot for high office when he’s barely qualified for the one he holds now. Talk about not ready for prime time.
And when his dad by inference compares him to Obama, justifying this grab for a governor’s race by essentially saying, “Why the hell not? Obama was a nobody not long ago.” it almost goes into the surreal.
They’ll shake the money tree and raise a pile, as that seems to be the thing he’s proudest of, not that other stuff with the laws and stuff. Money’s all that matters, I guess. Jacobs was hinting he’d be great to replace Obama in the senate over a year ago, now he wants Gov. I’m sure he’d only think it was a stepping stone to his White House bid in 2012. Palin vs. Jacobs. The ultimate race.
Comment by Anonymous in RI Tuesday, Nov 11, 08 @ 2:12 am
It is official. I am changing parties and whole heartily backing Blago. If that does not get him out of office maybe I will get one of the last four jobs left in Springfield when he wins again.
Comment by Whizbang Tuesday, Nov 11, 08 @ 5:02 am
Mark Kirk is a rising star and is the most qualified. It would be great to see a fresh face in Springfield. Kirk’s integrity will be a warm welcome to all Illinois residents. He’s also one that has a proven track record of working with both Democrats and Republicans. Kirk running the state would be a good change.
Comment by J Mack Tuesday, Nov 11, 08 @ 8:23 am