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* UPDATED x1 * Are we really going to have to wait until 2018?

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A long-time political reporter doubts the state will get a new budget before next summer.

In fact, Chicago Tribune’s Ray Long says there may be no budget until Democrats try to get Governor Bruce Rauner out of office in the 2018 elections.

* You may recall that I asked Gov. Rauner about this almost a year ago, back in January. Oscar the Puppy made the interview slightly difficult, however…

Miller: Do you see [Speaker Madigan] cutting a deal before the primary? Or before the General Election?

Rauner: I don’t know what timing he is going to choose. You know my buddies over in the Democratic caucus, some say that there’s a chance he’ll do it soon, others have said there is no way it’s happening before the primary. And more and more are sayin’ no way until after the general. At some point we got to lead.

Miller: How do you get there? You’ve faced complicated situations in business. You didn’t become who you were by just waiting everyone out.

::Oscar growing increasingly agitated::

Rauner: I haven’t played every card in my hand, I haven’t done everything I can do. I’m just going to keep doing what I can do to try and get a compromise.

Miller: Are you going to wait four years? Before we get a budget? Your entire term?

Rauner: Here’s the thing – I will not sign off on a tax hike that doesn’t have reforms in it.

::Oscar barking madly::

Miller: Oscar please!!

Miller: So, four years? Are you really willing to wait four years?

::Oscar continues barking as if to stop the interview all together::

Miller: Are you really willing to wait four years?

Rauner: I’m not waiting, I’m working my ass off 24/7.

Miller: Ok, are you willing to work your ass off and get nothing 24/7 for four years?

Rauner: We’ve already got a lot in the first year. I’m all about improvin’ the future for the people of Illinois.

Miller: (After a pause) Uh-huh.

Raw audo is here.

*** UPDATE *** That above interview was when the governor promised me economic and fiscal projections for his Turnaround Agenda. When I published them, Rauner promptly disowned his own numbers and then falsely claimed I was a former Madigan employee to distract from his woefully anemic projections of a $500 million revenue increase.

So, along those lines, here’s Wordslinger in comments today…

–We’re two years into Rauner’s term and I continue to be amazed that he thinks he’s going to get what he wants by opting for a 24/7/365 war against Madigan. Is he really any closer to his policy objectives than he was when he was first elected?–

Therein, I think, is a fundamental miscalculation many are making.

If squeeze-the-beast is the real agenda, and I think it is, then everything Rauner is doing makes perfect sense.

By his own (since disowned) calculation, Rauner estimated that his “agenda” would generate $500 million a year in extra state revenue.

So, do you push an FY17 budget with an $8 billion deficit (now estimated at $13 billion), and triple the backlog of bills to an estimated $14 billion by June 30, to hold out for an extra $500 million a year?

That would be the act of a lunatic. And Rauner ain’t crazy. He knows what he’s doing, and he’s accomplishing what he set out to do.

He just didn’t tell anyone what that was, for good reason.

Your thoughts?

…Adding… 47th Ward offers a counter-point…

He’s just so far removed from the carnage that he doesn’t care about the damage he is doing. The damage he is inflicting is in service of his anti-union zeal. He will stop at nothing to eliminate public unions. Period.

He knows he can’t get this done without breaking the whole political system so that’s what he’s doing, and damn the consequences.

I tend to side with 47 on this one.

posted by Rich Miller
Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 11:54 am

Comments

2019. Oscar was trying to tell you 2019.

Comment by Keyrock Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 11:59 am
To be completely fair, Oscar now needs to interview the Speaker and ask the same series of questions. /s (but just a little)

Comment by A guy Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:00 pm
Thank God he’s all about improvin’ the future for the people. He’s got a funny way of showing it

Comment by Chicago Cynic Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:00 pm
At least he gets the political danger of not passing a budget the whole term.

Comment by Arsenal Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:03 pm
If this is his version of improvin’ then I am movin’.

Comment by illinoised Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:06 pm
The way I see it, if Rauner maintains this course, he’ll face re-election against the head winds of Trump’s first mid-term with the only signature accomplishment being a $750 million electricity rate hike that kills jobs. He’ll also have accumulated over $20 billion in unpaid bills, probably a bunch of closed state facilities, including a university or two, and he’ll have overseen a decimated social service infrastructure. Pension debts continue to skyrocket, people continue to leave the state, no end in sight to the devastation.

That’s a heck of a record to run on.

Or, he could get a budget done and spend the next two years hammering home his agenda and persuading voters that his is the right way to bring back job and revitalize the Illinois economy. At least he’d have something to point to as he’s making his case for re-election. Right now he’s got nothing, and worse than nothing, he’s got abject failure as his legacy.

Someday people are going to see through his con, and when they do, they going to be very angry when they discover the true cost of Rauner’s intransigence.

Comment by 47th Ward Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:08 pm
He’s been working his … off on a scorched Illinois policy. Rauner is confident that his money will sustain him and his minions from the adverse ramifications of a 4-years without a complete budget. If anything, they expect his money to buy him a red state.

Comment by Norseman Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:08 pm
If you agree with what Madigan is doing, and opposed what Mitch McConnell did to Obama the last six years of his presidency you just tied your brain into a pretzel.

Comment by Almost the Weekend Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:12 pm
=He just didn’t tell anyone what that was, for good reason.=

Lying liars and the lies they tell.

Rauner’s dishonesty is transparent, yet few seem to care.

In time that will probably change.

Comment by JS Mill Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:24 pm
- Wordslinger - is on this…

===He just didn’t tell anyone what that was, for good reason.===

That’s why “no budget”, Rauner wins, “TA agenda points passing”, Rauner wins…

… the stalling of governing, Rauner wins

… “BossMadigan.Com” aids in the stalling, Rauner wins

Rauner continues to “win” by literally “failing” at governing

How twisted is that?!

Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:24 pm
1. Agree with Word. He’s a right as a 90 degree angle.
2. Governor Rauner, please give us another Rich and Oscar interview.
3. As long as K-12 gets funded, there will be no budget.

Comment by Earnest Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:29 pm
Extrapolating…. Rauners only objective is to try to get Madigan out of office. Glad to know that trying to run a 70+ year old man out of office a few years ahead of nature and against the wishes of his districts voters is worth destroying what has been destroyed so far.

Comment by Thoughts Matter Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:35 pm
Except he isn’t squeezing the beast, he’s running up the deficit/debt tab like my deadbeat brother-in-law at Gibson’s. Squeezing the beast would entail cuts to spending, lol. Haven’t seen any of those.

He’s just so far removed from the carnage that he doesn’t care about the damage he is doing. The damage he is inflicting is in service of his anti-union zeal. He will stop at nothing to eliminate public unions. Period.

He knows he can’t get this done without breaking the whole political system so that’s what he’s doing, and damn the consequences.

He is not a governor, he’s a zealot and his reckless disregard for the state of Illinois will have lasting consequences. We’ll be cleaning this mess up long after he moves to his ranch in Montana.

Comment by 47th Ward Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:36 pm
This exactly correct. Exactly! It only makes sense if one understands leveraged buyout.
Buy it
Break it up
Sell the pieces for profit

He bought it. Check
He’s stalled in breaking it up.
He’s already selling it. Note Madigans MOU on DCEO/intersect Illinois and EDGE Tax incentive agreements.
Just like Carrier got.

Leveraged buyout is for profit only
Not for social services
Not for small manufacturing/mainstreet
Not for Jobs
Not for education
Not for Republicans
Not for Illinois.

As Madigan said only for the governor and his wealthy friends

They profit

Only them

Comment by Honeybear Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:37 pm
Rauner said he wasn’t trying to change labor laws to allow local control of collective bargaining while doing just that. Local control of collective bargaining won’t change without some legal change.

Plus, Rauner said some local governments should not be encumbered by what other local governments want, because it’s undemocratic. He said this about local collective bargaining. So if Chicago legalizes marijuana and sells it in stores, the same logic follows for the state? The state should not interfere in Chicago’s democracy?

Comment by Grandson of Man Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:39 pm
lating…. objective is to try to get a particular legislator out of office. Glad to know that trying to run a 70+ year old man out of office a few years ahead of nature and against the wishes of his districts voters is worth whats happened the last 2 years.

I don’t know why some posts from my cell phone post and others don’t. Hopefully this is not duplicated

Comment by Thoughts Matter Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:42 pm
Excruciating interview, on many levels.

Prescient on the Gov’s part to a certain extent, but just gawd awful nonetheless.

Comment by Deft Wing Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:46 pm
Please explain to me how Term limits and property tax freeze generates $500 million a year?

This wasn’t covered in my 4 semesters of economics, no doubt because of uninformed academicians at the University.

Comment by Rufus Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:48 pm
===how Term limits and property tax freeze generates===

It was more than that back then.

Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:52 pm
Listened to the entire 9 minutes and loved Oscars input.

The longer I listen to our Governor hyping his “vision” for the future of our State, looking at his many, many failures/successes ( LSSI, Catholic Charities and hundreds of other agencies not to include the UofI and ALL Higher Education institutions ) the more frustrated I am to even comment on his myopic agenda and his disingenuous rhetoric.

I often refrain from commenting on many of the posts on this worthy site because others have expressed my opinions prior to me, and a few are especially daunting to follow up on.

And to this post, Wordslinger and 47thWard are to the point.

More Oscar, please. Always makes my day.

Comment by illini Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:53 pm
1) With all due respect to my fellow Scandinavian who I usually agree with, I’m leaning toward 47 as well.

2) JS Mill, shall we say Rauner’s post-truth world.

Comment by Norseman Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:55 pm
I don’t think the state can limp along too far into 2017 without a budget of some sort, and one much more robust than the previous “stopgap” one. The wheels will fall off the bus when the vendors stop supplying the state entities with needed things.

Comment by titan Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:57 pm
If you are comparing Mike Madigan and Mitch McConnell, you are twisting your brain into an even bigger pretzel, the brain and pretzel both soaked in Rauner Kool-Aid.

Comment by Michael Westen Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 12:57 pm
Let’s just speak plainly. Rauner’s objective is to shut the State down and he’ll NEVER agree to anything. Even if the GA gave him everything he asks for on a silver platter, he’d find a reason to veto it. His actions will always be punitive and he won’t be happy until we’re all on our knees begging for scraps.

Comment by (un)Happy Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:00 pm
Can’t wait for the 2016 accomplishments list — remember 2015 #1 was more money for education

Comment by Annonin' Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:01 pm
Oscar, the 21st-century coal mine canary. Got you out of there just in time!

Comment by Whatever Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:04 pm
Next time, Rauner will claim that Oscar used to work for Madigan. That’s when you know it is really a war.

Comment by Michael Westen Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:06 pm
Actually, I think -Word-, -47-, and -Honeybear- all have parts of it.

Rauner is breaking the State, because that was how he operated in the private sector.

And yes, he is willing to blow up both political parties because he sees no use for government except rewarding deserving “job creators” and, possibly, creating an infrastructure that businesses can use at minimal cost (which is why we may eventually get a capital construction bill).

And he is squeezing the beast, just in an unconventional way, to achieve a secondary goal on the national level. The increasing deficit / debt load is deliberate; he wants to overwhelm the State to the point where the only option is a federal bailout (if the D’s were in control) or federal permission for state bankruptcy (if the R’s are in control at the point of no return).

Three objectives that might be achievable for one price in one state. If he pulls it off, he will be ALEC’s man of the year.

Comment by RNUG Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:15 pm
== The wheels will fall off the bus when the vendors stop supplying the state entities with needed things. ==

So far, they have managed to find another vendor who will foolishly step in. Not sure how long that game of dominos can go on.

Comment by RNUG Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:18 pm
Public bankruptcy Rauner style…

Comment by Liberty Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:19 pm
Are we really going t have to wait until 2018?

My guess is that it will be in 2019 with a different Governor.

Comment by Federalist Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:27 pm
My guess is that anybody that thinks waiting for 2018 will work is in for a shock when they find out how many people in Illinois support governor Rauner’s agenda. What are you going to to do when he gets re-elected?

Comment by Dude Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:31 pm
Dogs can always judge a person’s true character. Follow Oscar…he is one smart and handsome puppy.

Comment by LisaC Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:33 pm
This post should be a warning of how this blog is becoming far too self-focused and an echo chamber. The comments cited here are warmly welcomed on this site but are far out of touch with average Illinoisans. Why did the media miss badly on the presidential election? Because they listened too much to people they liked to agree with. We can’t let the same thing happen here, but it is. Anyone who dares give another opinion is pounced upon by the professional commenters and 24-7 commenters. That’s not a healthy conversation.

Comment by Reality Check Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:33 pm
Quibble: is it “squeeze the beast”? Or “starve the beast”?

I think Radogno said “starve”, which is more dramatic and accurate. Take your pick.

Gee, RAUNER is insisting madigan speak first, and wear the jacket for: cuts, and esp tax increase. Hilarious.

Comment by Langhorne Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:39 pm
@Noresman- I like the sound of that (post truth world) it is shorter, catchy and apt.!

It is also the same place Deft Wing lives with his copy of the budget that no one else has, especially the ILGA, which they need so they can vote on it.

If only Deft Wing would share.

Comment by JS Mill Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:40 pm
There’s an ideology here obscured in words like “reform” and “turnaround agenda”. For Rauner actual governing is not something to embrace, it’s something to mock. It’s only done by “poindexters”. His goal is disrupting the institution and any damage done is inconsequential.

He simply has no interest in governing. The sooner we acknowledge that the better we’ll all be.

Comment by Pundent Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:41 pm
- Earnest -
“3. As long as K-12 gets funded, there will be no budget.”

It’s not funded now, but there’s apparently no hope of a budget anyway.

Comment by illini97 Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 1:46 pm
Reality Check - thank you. I have thought that for years. I agree with you and still respect the other commenters but it needed to be said.

Comment by Team Sleep Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 2:09 pm
@Reality Check: Amen to your comments. Well said.

Comment by Louis G. Atsaves Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 2:28 pm
The Bossmadigan site is a distraction prior to the 18 election. Rauner needs to blame someone to distract from himself. The great and powerful Madigan is that someone.
Think what you want unless someone has the money to match Bruce or can get Presidential type voter turnout, he will be reelected and he will pick up a seat or two. Prove to me the general public understands the nuances of the Capitol. Heck prove to me the press understands the nuances of the Capitol. Bossmadigan will dismantle some people and will rally Rauners base behind him and not let any crazy conservatives pick him off. No matter what right of conscience bill or conversion therapy bill he signs or how many corporate give aways he moves. Bossmadigan is there to harass Dems but it also keeps the ultra right wing from being able to sound any message about Rauner’s lack of real conservative values.

Comment by DuPage Bard Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 2:34 pm
>It’s not funded now, but there’s apparently no hope of a budget anyway.

It’s funded in the sense that it has a full year’s appropriation approved, but not in the sense that it’s being paid in a timely manner. Sorry–I didn’t phrase that well.

Comment by Earnest Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 2:41 pm
==Why did the media miss badly on the presidential election?==

Because a large number (NOT a majority) of people prefer simple (and pain-free) solutions to complex problems. Harold Hill would have a field day.

Comment by Jocko Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 2:41 pm
–Squeezing the beast would entail cuts to spending, lol. Haven’t seen any of those.–

Indeed, spending is up 12% in FY17, according to Moody’s. And the FY17 deficit is running at $13 billion, according to the Fiscal Futures Project.

But I’m sure you know that higher ed got whacked hard in FY16 and in the FY17 budget. And social service providers overall took at least a 35% haircut on their contracts — if they ever get paid. That projected $14 billion backlog is real.

–About $670 million was set aside to pay for social services, which amounts to roughly 65 percent of the cost of those services from last July through the end of this year. Providers of immigration services, autism services and youth programs, which had been frozen out of state spending the past 12 months, would become eligible for payments.

It was still unclear, however, which social service providers would get paid and when, given that there isn’t enough money to cover all of their bills. Rauner aides did not respond when asked how the administration plans to tackle that problem.–

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-illinois-budget-impasse-madigan-rauner-met-0701-20160630-story.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-bruce-rauner-illinois-moodys-met-0901-20160831-story.html

https://capitolfax.com/2016/12/02/report-a-decade-to-reach-solvency-if-leaders-cooperate-on-tough-plan/

Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 2:42 pm
– The comments cited here are warmly welcomed on this site but are far out of touch with average Illinoisans.–

How did you get that gig, spokesman for the “average Illinoisan?” I thought that was Guy’s job, among many?

So, are the points you don’t like being made by those who are below-average or above-average?

Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 2:48 pm
I am mostly with 47th, with a twist of Wordslinger. To Rauner unions are the enemy that must be defeated at all costs, and the Norquisty drowning of the state in the bathtub along the way is a side benefit. The fundamental problem of a rich-guy politician is that their bank account gives them a consequence free life so the ill effects of any this are so far removed that they can be waved away mentally.

Comment by In 630 Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 2:52 pm
RC, does the “average Illinoisan” think it is wise policy to run an FY17 deficit of $13 billion, and run up the backlog of bills to $14 billion, for “reforms” estimated to bring in an additional $500 million a year?

I hope I asked that gently enough for you. Want to keep the discussion “healthy.”

If you could answer that question and explain how it relates to the past presidential race, that would be great.

Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 2:53 pm
===This post should be a warning of how this blog is becoming far too self-focused and an echo chamber.===

Personally, I think you’re being a lil rough on the Raunerites, but that’s just me…

Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 2:54 pm
Reality Check: I think what you’ve noticed isn’t “Echo chamber”, it’s that we’re not a post-truth community. I don’t think I’m alone in saying that if Rauner’s ideas work and he can prove it with facts, I’m able to be convinced. But thus far he’s 0 for 2.

Comment by Skeptic Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 3:00 pm
Well said, Reality Check. Hear, hear.

Hey Walker, did you notice, almost on cue, how a couple of prolific knuckleheads immediately pounced on the gent for daring to express a pretty easy observation?

Comment by Deft Wing Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 3:03 pm
I think Reality Check is all wet. Polling puts the Governor at 38% approval rate. That’s about the same percentage of pro Rauner comments on this site.

Comment by Michael Westen Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 3:03 pm
===are far out of touch with average Illinoisans===

The last time [Rauner’s favorite pollster] Victory Phones tracked Rauner’s favorables was Oct. 30 through Nov. 3, just five days before [2016] Election Day.

The results of the poll of 1,376 respondents? Rauner’s favorable rating was 36 percent and his unfavorable rating 48 percent.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20161119/ISSUE11/311199986/mud-and-money-didnt-move-the-needle-much-in-springfield-power

Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 3:07 pm
The victimhood of being called upon to be less shill-like and be about a true factual discussion allows the Raunerbots to feel empowered… by their victimhood.

“Hear, hear, I’m a victim too… ”

That’s seems to be echoing…lol

- Skeptic -

I think you have a good grasp, asking for factual info should be embraced.

Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 3:08 pm
Deft Wing - amen to that.

Comment by Team Sleep Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 3:08 pm
Deft Wing:

Nixon 1960: 49.55%
Gore 2000: 48.38%
Kerry 2004: 48.26%
Ford 1976: 48.01%
Romney 2012: 47.15%
Trump 2016: 46.17%

Comment by Blue Bayou Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 3:09 pm
===Rauner promptly disowned his own numbers===

Regardless of which side of the political aisle you’re on I think one thing everyone can agree on is that Rauner has NEVER given us a true ROI on his TA with numbers to back it up. Wordsliger refers to this point often. I’m a middle-of-the-road guy and all I see right now is a lot of debt piling up, social services going away, and institutions of higher learning struggling. If Rauner can show me why this is all necessary I would be happy to consider his ideas. Show me what the reward will be as a result of all this self-inflicted pain. Rich, when Rauner disowned his numbers did he offer to send you amended ones? Or clarify the ones he sent? Or explain how you misinterpred them? I just want to know what lies at the end of this. I want to hear it from Rauner’s own mouth and I want specifics; not buzz words.

Comment by Cubs in '16 Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 3:19 pm
Agree that Rauner deception is an Illinois problem, but the Republican House members that have toed his line should not be getting any free passes. They will be just as guilty in 2018 for not allowing a State budget.

Comment by Gobblers Knob Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 3:29 pm
“To Rauner unions are the enemy that must be defeated at all costs”

This is the guy who speaks positively of government workers and pensions when he needs to look good:

“GTCR has been trusted for decades to oversee the retirement investments of first responders, teachers and other Illinois workers and has created tremendous returns for them - far surpassing the stock market’s performance - providing exceptional value for taxpayers.”

https://www.illinois.gov/gov/about/Pages/AbouttheGovernor.aspx

But he trashed public sector unions when he said they’re causing a financial tumor to grow due to “excessive compensation, both current pay and retirement pay.”

http://www.afscme31.org/news/rauner-attacks-public-employees

And some of you are upset over the tenor of comments? Wow, you might want to check your priorities.

Comment by Grandson of Man Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 3:39 pm
Someone above raised the McConnell-obstruction to Obama parallel to Madigan, which was some merit … but that worked out pretty well for McConnell, didn’t it? It’s not like republicans today love Mitch en masse, but he’s back in the driver’s seat. Madigan may be taking notes.

Comment by ZC Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 5:16 pm
Is it (a) “squeeze-the-beast” or (b) “union-busting at any cost” ? I think (b) but can’t be sure because some part of this is also a lack of basic political experience, a CEO’s inflexibility and lack of humility, and a vast separation from ordinary people due to his wealth.

Comment by peon Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 8:01 pm
Blue Bayou
Bill Clinton 1992 43.01%

Comment by Miller Lite Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 8:48 pm
–Author: Team Sleep
Comment:
Deft Wing - amen to that.–

What are you all “amening’ to? Not even Jesus can bail you out of your shallowness.

I suspect this admission of weakness is directed at me. What a wizard, I must be, to catch on to that. Amen.

No worries.

I have opinions that I back up with independent facts.

If I’m wrong, show me and sell it. Like big kids.

Let’s repeat that, for the Raunerbots, in the Matrix– if I’m wrong, show me and sell it. Like big kids.

I’ll tell you one thing — where I grew up in blue-collar Illinois, you walk it like you talk it.

And you back it up.

No crybabies, like the “amen chorus” here.

Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Dec 7, 16 @ 10:43 pm