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* From Rep. Mark Batinick…
Rich,
It’s late. Kid 3 broke her collarbone and this is my wife’s first day going back to work as a teacher. There are likely typos but I wanted to get this information to you. I’m ok with you posting as-is if you warn people that it may not be grammatically perfect. I believe this to be very important information that needs to be discussed.
He was responding to our discussion yesterday about Eastern Illinois University’s troubles.
* So, let’s focus on his considerable substance below, not his style. Here it is…
As you may know, I am on the Higher Education Appropriations committee. I believe Eastern Illinois University is important to the state’s future and wanted to provide additional important information for you and your readers. I am of the belief that the state’s “brain drain” is actually its biggest crisis, trumping the pension situation and the FY’16 budget. Solving our significant issues within Higher Education is a big part of stopping the “brain drain.” We need Eastern Illinois.
A big concern of mine has long been the high in-state cost of our public universities. I compared the tuition of U of I and our directional schools to their public conference peers. I used information from US News and World report to be consistent. Our tuitions are 30%-60% more expensive. I can tell from personal experience that the high in-state cost of tuition is driving our youth out-of-state. My daughter received a better deal to go to school at Truman State University in Missouri. My son will likely take his talents out-of-state as well. Both were ranked near the top of their class and will likely pay a lot of taxes — to another state. Studies show that once a student leaves for school, he is much more likely to leave for good. This state cannot afford to lose tomorrow’s high income earners. If you talk to people with children going off to college, you’ll find many of them leaving the state. Many schools offer out-of-state tuition waivers to good or even decent students. They are stealing our talent!
We currently have a net-out migration of over 16,000 students per year! That is like losing 2 Eastern Illinois’ annually. That’s every year. It’s a multiple of that when you consider that kids go to school for many years. Just stemming that tide, would fill Eastern, Western, and Southern quickly. Also, between 2009 and 2014 we have lost 70,689 students going from 397,018 to 326,329. Look, the easiest way to solve our pension crisis is through growth. We are going in the wrong direction fast. I cannot over-emphasize how this demographic shift creates future fiscal challenges for the state. Access the back-up data by clicking here.
Before taking office, I had assumed that the high cost of tuition is due to a lack of state funding. To my great surprise, it is not. According to the State Higher Education Executive Officer’s 2014 Report we actually rank 3rd in Full-Time Equivalent funding. We spend $12,293 while the national average is $6,552. Supporting data is attached. And the entire SHEEO report can be found by clicking here.
Critics will say that the only reason our FTE funding is so high is because we are catching up on our pension payments. But I have also attached a chart that we were given by the board of higher education that shows that after stripping out all pension costs we still rank 9th in the funding of higher education. I know we are making up pension payments, but pulling out all retirement costs is an over-correction. All universities have some retirement costs even if it is merely the matching social security payment. So reality is somewhere between 3rd and 9th in funding. No matter where that is it is well above the national average.
Armed with this data, I asked representatives of various universities in committee, “Why is it so expensive to educate someone in Illinois?” I repeatedly received the same answer. “The cost of doing business is high in Illinois.” Let’s get specific. The University of Illinois actually cited in our data packet the higher cost of Worker’s compensation and liability insurance. Their liability insurance has gone up 1000% in the last 20 years. That’s a wee bit over inflation. Data attached. They also often cited our state’s regulatory climate. When the cost of doing business is high for businesses, it is often high for taxpayers as well.
Another issue raised almost universally was our procurement code. We would hear about having to wait months for approval on items costing administrative time and often price increases. We hear about how the bid process doesn’t work for purchasing specialty items. In fact, U of I has told me that trying to match the state code with federal grant requirements has caused the University to “house” some grants at Purdue. Our federal grants are moving out of state! And last week I heard a new one. Illinois State University spoke at the Lt. Governor’s consolidation committee I am on about a “soy-bean based ink preference.” I’m not sure if this is something for the farmers or for renewable energy. I currently have the LRU looking into how much that requirement is costing the state. Now I’m for renewable energy. And I love farmers. I even own a car that can run on used vegetable oil. But we can’t save the world if we can’t save the state. We have to do things more cost-effectively. Requirements like this have to go. Click here for a link to me trying to get procurement relief for universities.
While procurement and regulatory relief would help, it likely isn’t enough. I believe that the universities need much more autonomy in the way they operate. With all the stories that I have heard, it seems like the state micro-manages them through all sorts of mandates and red tape. But in exchange for autonomy, the state should be measuring a small set of large metrics. We should more concerned about the cost of tuition, amount of in-state students, graduation rates, and in-state job placements than what type of ink a university buys.
Which brings me back to Eastern Illinois University. With a little freedom, Eastern is set to thrive. I have many friends who had children attend recently. I traveled from Champaign to Charleston often during my college years. It is a great campus in a wonderful town. I’ve only heard positive experiences from students. It is very conveniently located close enough to our population center, while far away enough from Mom and Dad. It’s right off I-57. I also would like to mention that according to the May 2013 Auditor General report, Eastern Illinois University has the lowest administrative cost per student. See page vii of this link. Eastern Illinois should be an integral part of Illinois’ renaissance. I expect it to be.
Stay healthy!
Mark Batinick
posted by Rich Miller
Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:01 am
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Batinick is absolutely correct! Dem’s have a death-grip on this state because they want to control EVERYTHING. It’s time to free Illinois from the chains shackled on by Madigan and let good people do their collective thing!
Comment by Anon2U Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:07 am
==Many schools offer out-of-state tuition waivers to good or even decent students.==
Anxiously awaiting the first “race to the bottom” comment…
Comment by nixit71 Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:09 am
Very interesting. How many of those mandates have passed within the past decade? I can think of two union-backed measures that forced higher costs on Universities just off the top of my head. Both were opposed by Republicans, but gleefully passed by the Democrats.
Comment by Not it Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:11 am
Rich,
Bless your daughters heart. I know she will, but hope she gets along well….. mom and dad too.
Comment by Facts are Stubborn Things Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:13 am
Well stated Mark. Thank you for sharing.
Comment by BW Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:13 am
I’d like to see some cites on these studies that kids who go out of state to go to school don’t come back.
That certainly hasn’t been my life experience. Friends and children of friends went all over the Big Ten, Wash U, and the Ivies and landed back in Chicago for work and family.
Once football season starts up, pick up a Red Eye. It’s filled with ads for North Side bars that are the “official” spot for alumni for colleges all across the country.
Graduates make individual choices on the best job after college.
In the Midwest, the biggest job market is Chicago metro.
It ain’t Iowa City, West Lafayette, Bloomington IN, South Bend, Madison, etc.
Comment by Wordslinger Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:17 am
From my alma mater, Illinois State University’s website:
* For most students, tuition rates remain the same for four years. Tuition and fees for out-of-state students are $21,480. However, students from neighboring states (Iowa, Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, Missouri, Kentucky) and some academically talented students (as determined by the University) are eligible for a rate of tuition equal to students who live in Illinois, a savings of almost $8,000 per year.
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:17 am
I can only speak for Chicago and the metro area, but there is no brain drain, in fact it’s the opposite. Chicago attracts well educated folks.
Comment by Tone Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:19 am
Thoughtful and detailed. Waiting for the status quo defenders here to say something … Bueller? Bueller?
Comment by Ottawa Phil Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:19 am
TL;DR. Pardon my grammatical imperfections, but I’m going to use logic and reasoning to explain why higher education is an integral component for bringing forth a better economy and a better state. **Rep. MB, thanks for writing. And RM, thanks for posting.**
Comment by W.S. Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:21 am
Wordslinger - true, but those aren’t the only out-of-state schools these kids are going to - some may go to schools on or near the coasts and will go to those business centers. And even if most of those students at the nearby out-of-state schools come back here, *any* additional losses than that which would otherwise occur is a bad thing.
Realizing this is bad inductive reasoning, but I’m surprised that Eastern doesn’t rank a little higher in those magazine school rankings - the people I’ve met who went there are very impressive (and nice folks to boot).
Comment by lake county democrat Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:22 am
Many of the Procurement rules that we deal with come as a result of residing in the most corrupt state in the union. Each and every Procurement rule has a place, and is designed to eliminate corruption but there are so many that the aggregate becomes death by a thousand cuts. The Procurement rules, coupled with an overabundance caution by by the people responsible for complying with the rules, breeds this massive slow-moving bureaucracy.
Comment by Gruntled University Employee Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:24 am
I did not see historical “Brain drain” stats. I left the state to attend college and returned. And, while I was in college we actually studied the baby boomers’ affect on the US economy, past, present and future. The fact is, there are fewer students today and universities are fighting it out in a free market. Charleston just may not be a desirable destination compared to its competition. Especially, if U of I executes a strategy of growing to a 100,000 student system.
Comment by Nothin's easy... Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:26 am
==The Procurement rules, coupled with an overabundance of caution by the people responsible for complying with the rules, breeds this massive slow-moving bureaucracy.==
Fixed it.
Comment by Gruntled University Employee Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:26 am
Our experience with our three kids who are in college. Their decisions on which colleges to attend were very much like buying a car. They were all offered scholarships at various schools that interestingly brought the costs of their education below that of what they would have been at the University of Illinois. One admissions officer at another Big Ten school actually admitted to us that it was easy to beat the U of I purely from a financial perspective because its tuition is so much higher.
Comment by GA Watcher Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:26 am
Here is a study by the Illinois Education Research Council on our brain drain;
http://ierc.education/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/2014-1-Outmigration-and-Human-Capital-Research-Highlights.pdf
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:30 am
EIU also offers in-state tuition rates to students in neighboring states: Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri and Wisconsin
Comment by anon Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:31 am
The point about losing students is true. I have two family members that went to much better out of state universities at lower rates.
But let’s get real. The liberalization of IL public universities is killing them. They prioritize balancing perceived socio-economic scale over education. All of our university have extensive social programs that have nothing to do with education and are not provided in other states. LGBT…progams and the like are more important than tenure track professors.
Can’t speak for EIU, but SIU is much more interested in attracting minority students from Chicago then students withing 60 miles of the university that were in the top 10% of their class. A meritorious endeavor, but not one that promotes higher education.
Most valedictorians of local high schools do not even get contacted by a state university.
This is not the 60’s. We don’t need universities to be centers of social thought.(even if we do, we can’t afford it) They need to be centers for higher education. Each state university could cut costs dramatically be eliminating the social programs, and focusing on education. But no one will do it because education is not a priority.
Comment by the Patriot Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:32 am
First off, I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago. Friends that didn’t get into U of I, often went to other big 10 schools, U of Iowa, IU, Wisconsin, etc… They paid more than going to say ISU, but they wanted the big name school. U of I has 32,000 undergrads and Illinois has almost 13 million people. U of Wisconsin has 29,000 undergrads but a little less than 6 million people. Michigan has almost 10 million people, but they have U of Michigan and MSU. Indiana has IU and Purdue.
Of my close friends from high school, all that went out of state for undergrad (more than 10 years ago) all live in Illinois. Only one friend lives out of state, and he went to NIU.
Comment by Button is broke... Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:35 am
EIU has traditionally been a teachers college. ACT recently reported that fewer and fewer high school students are planning to attend college to become teachers. Maybe EIU’s problems are just part of a bigger trend away from education as a career.
http://www.act.org/newsroom/future-teacher-pipeline-narrows-even-further-act-report-shows-fewer-high-school-grads-planning-to-become-educators/
Comment by St. Louis Bob Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:37 am
Workers Comp at EIU is handled by CMS and I’m pretty sure costs are covered by the State, not the university. The U of I does handle their own, which is who Batinick cited, so he’s not incorrect, but that is not having as significant impact on Eastern.
Procurement is most definitely an issue. Both for the universities and state agencies. It would be nice if the Governor had spent more time on things that are actually broken and need to be fixed, since he’s the one who claimed he could save $500 million at CMS.
Comment by Juice Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:40 am
I think it is important to note that as satisfying as it may be to throw out simplistic one-line solutions, it is far more complicated than that. It isn’t *just* republicans, or democrats, or regulation, or brain drain, or tuition, or taxes, or recruiting, or pensions, or even programs.
Much like everything in Illinois, EIU’s problems are ones that need to be tackled by thinking people who are able to effect actual change. Not by stereotypical bureaucrats or politicians who are more interested in party jingoism and their egos than anything else.
Depressing as it is, I have zero confidence that the system, as it exists, is even capable of solving these complex problems.
Comment by Frustrated Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:42 am
Thank you for this, Rich, and thanks to Rep. Batinick for sharing his views (and backing it up with research).
I don’t agree with all of his conclusions, but admit some of that may be cognitive dissonance, so it will prompt me to do some of my own. At the very least, he’s given me new thoughts to consider.
Comment by thunderspirit Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:47 am
Having two competing governmental education systems directly competing against each other still makes no sense to me. Lakeland CC publishing direct targeted attacks to prospective students of EIU can’t help EIU.
Realizing everyone’s favorite price is “free”. Just in terms of cash, don’t we want the freshman and sophomore students at the 4 year colleges rather than the CC’s. I presume that while the CC’s cost the student less but they cost the tax payers more? It seems to me anyway, that CC’s have morphed into full function, multi building campuses rather than just a vocational/marginal student/low cost/easy entry alternative.
Comment by Bobby Hill Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:51 am
The “brain drain” concern is usually claimed as Illinois losing its university graduates to other states. Which way the flow goes for the best high school students is unclear, but a significant number of those who get educated elsewhere return to the state.
Comment by walker Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:54 am
Quit using anecdotes about friends and family returning to IL after college and read the IERC study, we are losing our best and brightest.
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:58 am
==don’t we want the freshman and sophomore students at the 4 year colleges rather than the CC’s==
As long as you can continue to go to a community college and pay less money to get the required core courses students will continue to do it. The universities either need to address this by creating a tuition system that matches the community colleges for core courses or work on a cooperative agreement with those community colleges to filter students to their particular university after they have completed their community college coursework.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:59 am
At NIU, the present President ignored purchasing rules to hire friends and cronies. Over a million dollars was spent just on consultants, ridiculous transportation plans (which used electric golf carts here in the frozen tundra). When we build State buildings we go to a bid system for buildings, when we use foundation and bonds, the buildings get built by the same architects and construction companies every time - no bid. When you relax the purchasing rules you create graft.
Comment by mhsheikh Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:02 am
I thought the surge in tuition really took off after Blagojevich set tuition for all four years at the start, so that students on campus weren’t affected by increases. Maybe that guarantee has to be revisited, if it means fewer people are concerned about the incremental growth in costs.
Comment by Elo Kiddies Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:05 am
If you want to increase the number of students at Illinois universities, stop paying 6 figure salaries to bureaucrats and start paying higher salaries to recruit top not admissions counselors and academic advisors. Those are the people students interact with, and the people who can get students to attend Illinois colleges.
Oh, and stop saying Illinois is so broken. If you’re a smart young person and you constantly hear the people in charge saying the state is broken and our high ed system is broken, you’re not going to want to go there. You’ll pick the nice, shiny out of state school that says they’re better than Illinois. It’s simple psychology/marketing.
Comment by ugh Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:05 am
We found a better deal for my oldest daughter who went to Southeast Missouri State University in Cape Girardeau. We essentially paid Missouri in-state tuition which made SEMO about $2,000-$3,000 less to attend than Illinois directional schools. She graduated with two degrees and is now enrolled at SLU Law School. She plans to settle in Missouri.
Comment by The Unknown Poster Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:06 am
One large increase to tuition occurred under the Blago administration. The state had all state employees including university employees covered on the state health insurance plan. The health insurance was paid in a single appropriation that covered state police, highway workers, Medicaid workers, and all others including UNIVERSITY employees. Blago then changed it so the insurance stayed the same, but the money to pay for the insurance was charged to the universities. Tuition jumped drastically. This factor should be looked at when comparing to schools in other states.
Comment by DuPage Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:08 am
He’s very right about there being reason and cause for concern. If you spend any time talking with college aged kids, their thinking is a lot different than a generation ago. Our instate rates are making us less desirable compared to comparable out of state rates. He’s onto something.
Comment by À guy Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:18 am
Wordslinger hit the nail on the head. I worked at a bar in Lincoln Park 5 years ago, and most of the time when you check a younger person ID, the happened to be from Michigan, Ohio…
I would also like to add, as a thought experiment, that maybe the location preference of the students has changed, with regards to college. I live near downtown and there are approximately 9 undergraduate schools. They are continually building “new” students high rises, especially in South Loop. My interpretation is that this younger generation (I graduated ’05) prefers to attend schools in more urban locales, rather than traveling to Charleston and Macomb.
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:18 am
Anon, the IERC two-pager you linked says 2/3 of those who go out of state for school return to Illinois and put down roots.
Is that some kind of smoking gun to you, in a highly mobile society?
Comment by Wordslinger Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:18 am
Maybe the admissions folks and the higher ups at EIU have done a terrible job attracting and retaining students. Just a thought.
Comment by anon Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:19 am
Ahh, procurement rules.
My favorite is when something is needed from a particular vendor, but you’ve gone over the bid limit. No problem — just contact one of the accepted vendors where bid limits don’t apply, ask them to buy the item, and then buy it from them at a 30% or greater markup! Problem solved!
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:23 am
I find this a breath of fresh air–an intelligent, well-informed argument and representation of Republican principles. Agree or disagree, this is the level of debate we need to move Illinois forward.
Comment by Earnest Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:24 am
No mention of the senate’s Spring report on the skyrocketing growth of higher ed admin…
Comment by Pot calling kettle Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:25 am
I think we haven’t yet figured out the real cost-drivers in IL. Workers comp is a problem, but it isn’t that much money.
I’d like to see some hearings or commissions on cost-drivers. I suspect it is health insurance more than anything, but I don’t know. Maybe procurement is part of it. Maybe workers comp is bigger than I think. But really figuring out what’s driving our costs so much would be really helpful.
And I love the idea of required cooperative agreements with community colleges on core classes. We should mandate that by statute.
And as long as I’m on the most influential soapbox in Illinois government, for local government consolidation, we should mandate consolidation of the back office functions (IT, procurement, HR) housed in one local gov (maybe the county or maybe the community college) to serve all the smaller local govs int that area, and not try to abolish townships, park districts, etc. Keep the elected people in place (maybe abolish their pay and benefits) but strip out the staff through consolidation. My two cents!
And since only Republicans are reading comments today as the Dems are all at the fair, create a commission. Minority parties can do that if the Administration doesn’t feel like it. Lots of fact-finding to do.
Comment by Dan Johnson Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:26 am
===We should mandate that by statute.===
That is exactly the problem. We treat our public universities as if they were state agencies when in fact, they are state supported institutions. They should not be subject to the procurement code. They should not be subject to mandates from Springfield.
The mindset that our public universities ought to be managed in the same way the Department of Agriculture or Transportation is governed is a very large part of the what is destroying public higher education in Illinois.
Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:35 am
EIU is a non competitive day care that C students In the suburbs will retreat to because it’s the only place that would take them. Meanwhile enrollment is up at ISU and U of I schools with far better standards than EIU. The decline of students at one school and increase at out of state and instate schools indicates that our students are working harder and no longer need an easy get in like EIU. It’s time for them to pack it in and let the state focus its resources on schools that are growing and raising the academic profile of our State
Comment by GoldwaterRepublican Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:37 am
I am sending my daughter to a private college this year instead of a state school. There were several factors involved with her decision, but the cost was basically the same. The privates have endowments and they can match or exceed the state schools on cost when they really want a student.
Just made the first payment though, gulp.
Comment by Jake From Elwood Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:43 am
==- Dan Johnson - Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:26 am:
And I love the idea of required cooperative agreements with community colleges on core classes. We should mandate that by statute.==
This has already been going on for years under the Illinois Articulation Agreement. Some courses in the major have also been included. http://www.itransfer.org/IAI/container.aspx?file=iai
Comment by Ret Prof Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:45 am
EIU and WIU suffer from the same disadvantage recruiting students. Today’s youth do not want to attend school in a small town. They want the amenities provided by larger urban communities. SIU-E struggles to house the increasing number of students wanting to study there despite similarities to EIU whose enrollment is plummeting. SIU-E is by St. Louis, EIU is in Charleston.
Comment by College Parent Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:55 am
Forgive me if my reading comprehension is a little off — but he doesn’t actually propose any solutions, does he?
He’s a lawmaker who is just listing policy problems and isn’t outlining any concise policy solution. Simply put, where’s his bill?
Where does he talk about addressing Illinois structural budget deficit with revenue so that he can continue to fund EIU?
This is just empty platitudes from a passionate man who offers no solutions to the problems he describes.
Comment by Anon Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:14 am
One of the best posts of the year!
Comment by Shore Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:26 am
-Forgive me if my reading comprehension is a little off — but he doesn’t actually propose any solutions, does he?-
Yes. Your reading comprehension is off. He proposed a bill and there is a link in the article to him speaking about it on the floor. He also talked about getting rid of mandates for things like “soy-bean based ink”.
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:26 am
Well, 47, if it was up to me, I’d require private colleges to accept a standard core class from a community college that met a standard of quality. I think we are too decentralized and too autonomous so we lose out on economies of scale and efficiencies. A student consumer should have the same clear path to a 4 year graduation wherever they buy their classes
Comment by Dan Johnson Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:33 am
“SIU-E struggles to house the increasing number of students wanting to study there”
SIUE is a commuter school and with times tight more will attend and commute from home. The reason they “struggle” to house the students is because it has always been a commuter school that had no need for on campus housing. With over 14,000 students enrolled this year 9,500 commute to campous.
“Southern Illinois University Edwardsville has reached the largest overall enrollment in the history of the school at 14,107, representing a 1.2 percent increase over last fall’s enrollment of 13,941. Of the 3,500 students who live on campus, University Housing reports SIUE residence facilities house some 1,358 freshmen.”
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:33 am
And thanks retired prof but is that voluntary? I think that was a Schock bill wasn’t it?
Comment by Dan Johnson Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:33 am
College Parent——-and some students want to experience greek life, have a traditional campus and have bars and restaurants on campus. SIUE offers little to none of that.
It is baffling why SIUE is popular. I’ve known some kids who went there and they left. St. Louis may have some appeal, especially if you are a Cardinal fan. Overall, not that much.
Comment by anon Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:34 am
I chose EIU in the late 1970’s because of the large number of women that attended school there. My parents never knew. (or at least I don’t think they knew.)
Comment by St. Louis Bob Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:41 am
Dan, you might be a hammer, but not every problem is a nail.
Most privates have articulation agreements with community colleges already, without a state mandate. Why? Because transfer students are a crucial piece of the enrollment puzzle at every four-year college. The market figured that out long before the General Assembly took notice.
Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:41 am
I have long known that a problem cannot be solved unless it is first defined. In this commendable post Representative Batinick has taken a step in the right direction. And, for a change, almost all of the comments are useful and correct. Bravo!
Comment by Keyser Soze Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:41 am
Daughter #2 graduated 5th in high school class. Purdue, Iowa, Mizzou offered great academic scholarships. Oklahoma and Oklahoma State offered guaranteed full ride for four years, including room and board. U of I offered nothing and told us that if she did not attend they had plenty of out of state and international students who could take her seat. She chose Mizzou.
Comment by Motambe Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:50 am
==This is just empty platitudes==
Though he wrote that late at night with a lot of going on, he summarizes the problems, possible improvements and includes research.
He was not writing a press release to lobby for a bill, but out of his real concern. Honest ==empty platitudes== like that beat the current Springfield dishonesty any day.
Comment by Formerly Known As... Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:54 am
==This is just empty platitudes from a passionate man who offers no solutions to the problems he describes.==
In Rep. Batinick’s defense, the first step in solving a problem is to identify and substantiate that it exists. I believe Mark is trying to rally attention to the situation with this piece, and that’s all - early in the process. Give him some credit for supplying some statistical evidence, making it harder for the out-migration deniers to shoot him down.
Comment by Tom K. Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:57 am
==U of I offered nothing==
Got to keep adding that $ to the endowment, you know. Is it over $2B yet? /s
Comment by Formerly Known As... Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:58 am
I was shocked when I heard the “Virgin Vault” 9 floors high Carmen Hall was mothballed. Thomas Hall is now co-ed, as well as other dorms. When I was at EIU in the mid-90s, I recall them having discussions about trying to reopen the top floor of Pemberton Hall because they were out of space for students.
The high tuition is only one factor in EIU’s woes.
Another factor is Lakeland College. I live in Effingham & a good 50% of graduating seniors go to Lakeland vs a 4 year school such as EIU. When I graduated high school many moons ago, Lakeland was known as “Losers Last Chance” & was not well attended by Effingham seniors. Among those of us that chose to go to college after high school, most of us went on straight to a 4 year university. Since that time, LLC has built satellite campuses - including one in Effingham - that offers nearly every class available on the main campus. In fact, there are plans for LLC to expand their facility in Effingham at some point over the next 5-10 years.
Another factor against EIU is the lack of innovation by EIU. At LLC & I assume it’s the same at other junior colleges, many of the courses are offered online. This keeps costs low for the student (housing and/or transporation) & allows a college student to work while attending school. EIU’s selection of online courses is dismal at best. Some of the online courses I have taken at LLC have been much harder than some of the courses I took at EIU. In this technology based age & just like a business, you must have that “click with the brick”. EIU has probably lost students who would be paying tuition to junior colleges & perhaps some other 4 year universities because they do not have a wide selection of online courses.
Yet another factor is the choices of majors. EIU has been known as a teacher education school. They keep churning out teachers for which there are fewer jobs. Trust me, I’m one of them who went to school to be a teacher & I am now in a field completely away from teaching. Part of that is the undergraduate advisors who fill students’ heads with visions of glory about the job field after college knowing full well that it’s a lie. But the more students a particular department gets, the more likely their budgets won’t get a severe of an ax. In addition, the majors available don’t match the changing job market. Just because you want to pay tuition to learn how to repair horse buggies, doesn’t mean the university should have that major available when everyone is driving cars. EIU should be finding out what jobs are in demand, which aren’t, & petitioning the powers to be to change what they can offer as majors.
A pet peeve of mine with the state universities is the lack of transferable credits between them. For instance, if I take Econ 4800 at EIU but then decide I want to finish at SIU then that credit doesn’t transfer - plus having to do “senior residency credits” once you transfer.
I also believe, tho I have no data to back it up, that EIU & other higher education 4 year schools could cut costs & attract more students if they cut out the general education part of their curriculum. A student spends 2 years taking biology, anthropology or English 101 before they get to their major courses. As tax payers, we paying twice to educate these students - once at the local level & once again at the university level. If a student attends a 4 year university, they should be able to go directly into their major courses. If that student is not prepared to do so, a) that’s the fault of their K-12 system & b) go to a junior college first for a refresher on general education. Even when I was attending EIU in the mid-90s, it was difficult to get out of school in 4 years without taking summer courses, trying an overload schedule or double enrolling at LLC & EIU to do general education courses (frowned upon but I did it & the credits transferred).
Sorry for the length, but I needed to get that off my chest.
Comment by LGHB Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 12:01 pm
Anonymous - Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:58 am:
Quit using anecdotes about friends and family returning to IL after college and read the IERC study, we are losing our best and brightest.
I’m sure there is a brain drain downstate where there are no opportunities for good paying jobs, look at most rural areas in the US, they are poor and losing population. IL is not any different, and why would it be with the taxes needed to pay for outrageous public employee benefits.
The truth is Chicago and the surrounding metro is a brain magnet, whether or not the well educated person was originally from IL, WI, MN, IN, NY, CA, MI, China, India, Bosnia, Nigeria is irrelevant to me. And should be to you.
IL is not a vacuum,
Comment by Tone Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 12:17 pm
@ Anonymous, 10:18: ==My interpretation is that this younger generation (I graduated ’05) prefers to attend schools in more urban locales==
Yes, and that’s also true of most faculty (who are no longer married men whose wives are at home raising the kids). Yet UIUC continues to be highly favored over UIC.
Comment by UIC Guy Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 12:18 pm
Rep. Batnick’s point regarding the high cost of workers’ compensation and its impact on public entities like EIU is on target. Even if EIU does not pay their comp costs directly, the costs are born by taxpayers and students. Rep. Batnick has not been shy about his solutions to the problem of workers’ compensation costs in Illinois. Look at the bills he has sponsored and co-sponsored this year…make the system work fair for everyone, reduce the friction costs, continue to provide our good benefits to legitimately injured workers and weed out the claims where the workplace is not the true cause of the injury…we don’t need to be the lowest cost state, but we need to get back to the middle to allow for the retention and growth of jobs.
Comment by Illini grad Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 12:28 pm
Motambe, please provide more info. What was your daughters GPA? Her ACT score? What is her major?
I know kids that attended my kids high school who had high GPA’s and 30+ on their ACT and they received no money because they were denied admission to UIUC.
Comment by anon Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 1:02 pm
“Oh, and stop saying Illinois is so broken. If you’re a smart young person and you constantly hear the people in charge saying the state is broken and our high ed system is broken, you’re not going to want to go there. You’ll pick the nice, shiny out of state school that says they’re better than Illinois. It’s simple psychology/marketing.”
The guv’s people need to stop saying Illinois is broken. Hearing negative remarks about our state all the time is like a broken record! Arrggg!!!
Comment by Mama Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 1:11 pm
Illinois is broken, but it can be fixed.
Hint, more taxes won’t solve our problems though.
Comment by Tone Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 1:27 pm
The effort to move health insurance to special funds, which includes universities, started under Thompson. As part of the deal with the universities to get them to assume their health insurance costs, the General Assembly gave up appropriation oversight of the university income funds starting in FY 1999, Edgar’s last year in office. All pre-Blago.
Comment by DuPage Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 1:50 pm
That was me, not DuPage, at 1:50. Made same mistake yesterday, time for a new phone.
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 1:51 pm
==ACT recently reported that fewer and fewer high school students are planning to attend college to become teachers.==
When I entered college, employers said there was a shortage of engineers. When I graduated college, employers said there were too many engineers.
Professional supply/demand is cyclical. But if you were considering a profession that contractually protected more-tenured employees over new hires, regardless of performance, would you chose teaching? Why enter a profession where you are 100% guaranteed to be the first person fired and only because you’re new?
Comment by nixit71 Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 2:10 pm
===Illinois is broken===
===time for a new phone===
There is a metaphor in there somewhere…
Comment by thechampaignlife Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 2:28 pm
47, I’d like to see those agreements on an IBHE website or the iTransfer site so student consumers can have full access to it. It isn’t on iTransfer (at least how I can see it).
And iTransfer looks like a very well-intentioned effort to bring some clarity to a real mess of a radically decentralized higher education network.
Comment by Dan "The Hammer" Johnson Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 2:43 pm
Looking at comments of people about how students are choosing more urban schools over rural schools, I felt the need to share this. Now, I don’t know how things will pan out this fall…most schools don’t release enrollment numbers until a couple of weeks into classes, however, I recently went through and compared enrollments at all the state institutions over the 4-year time frame of Fall 2010 to Fall 2014.
Here’s the list of 4-year public universities ranked by overall decrease in % of students from 2010 to 2014:
1. Chicago State, ~29.2% down
2. Eastern IL, ~23.3% down
3. Northeastern IL, ~14.8% down
4. Northern IL, ~13.6% down
5. Southern IL (Carbondale), ~10.2% down
6. Western IL, ~8.96% down
7. Illinois State, ~2.4% down
8. U of I (Chicago), ~0.8% down (problems finding grad numbers, this is just undergrad enrollment)
9. U of I (Springfield), ~0.7% down
10. U of I (Champaign/Urbana), ~2.5% up
I was unable to find equivalent numbers for Governors State.
So, if you look at where rural and urban schools are on the list, the #1 and #3 worst performing schools are urban, with #4 being technically “rural” but still very close to both the Chicago suburbs and Rockford area. It looks to me that having a “big name”…U of I, Illinois State…matters a lot more to a lot of students than where the school is located.
Comment by Scott Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 2:52 pm
== EIU & other higher education 4 year schools could cut costs & attract more students if they cut out the general education part of their curriculum.==
Agreed, or at least in part. I enjoyed some of my general education courses, but I don’t feel like I gained much. If you are “ready for college”, then you should already have the basics that are some of the general education courses and you likely won’t need much of the rest. Open the course schedule up to more electives and you’ll incentivize double majors, make it more forgiving to change majors, and give students a better experience.
Comment by Timmeh Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 2:57 pm
=== I’d like to see those agreements on an IBHE website===
Yes, well, I’d like to be taller.
Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 2:58 pm
=Why enter a profession where you are 100% guaranteed to be the first person fired and only because you’re new?=
Not true anymore. Tenure and seniority still play a role without a doubt. However, performance rating and ranking trump seniority when reductions in force (RIF) occur. All things being equal (rating and ranking) seniority wins. Some things have changed a little. I think some would argue not enough. Seniority and tenure also serve to protect us from ourselves to an extent. I do not think many see that side of things. When economics get though, there are always (and I mean always) those who want to release the most expensive teachers first. Without tenure and seniority, that would happen in some districts/colleges.In most cases we would lose an awful lot if that were allowed to occur. Well run institutions would not allow that even if it were legally permissible, but not all are well run.
Comment by JS Mill Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 3:00 pm
== EIU & other higher education 4 year schools could cut costs & attract more students if they cut out the general education part of their curriculum.==
Since the those students now entering the work force can expect to perhaps change careers several times - and jobs maybe 10 times - the specific subject matter they learned in their major will no longer be relevant throughout their working career. But the ability to think and communicate that they learn from those gen ed courses will help them throughout their lives to adapt and thrive in constantly changing work environments. Don’t sell those gen ed and liberal arts classes so short.
Comment by Joe M Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 3:04 pm
==but I’m surprised that Eastern doesn’t rank a little higher in those magazine school rankings==
EIU actually ranks very highly in those rankings…#4 among the Midwest’s top public regional universities according to US News & World Report. In those same rankings encompassing 12 states, EIU ranks 31st among all universities — public AND private — in their category and has the highest graduation rate and freshman retention rate among all Illinois public universities in its class. I’m a proud graduate of Eastern (Go Panthers!) and my wife, son and daughter-in-law all went there, as well. My daughter-in-law did go there to study education and was offered a teaching position at one of the schools where she wanted to teach almost immediately after graduation but I could also rattle off a laundry list of graduates who reached the top of their respective professions with educations from EIU as their foundation. I also have friends whose children attend there now and the students and parents love the place. Prioritizing where state funds should go is a difficult task but giving our universities a place somewhere on the priority list should be a no-brainer for us. It ain’t rocket science, folks…although EIU’s physics graduates could help us figure it out if it was. Also, a quick Google search and I found my stats here in case anyone is interested: http://castle.eiu.edu/media/viewstory.php?action=993
Comment by Cubs Win Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 3:05 pm
Anon - Daughter’s gpa was 3.96? made one B in HS, all other grades were A. ACT in the low 30’s, 31 or 32. Engineering was major. Planned for civil engineering, but went petroleum/environmental engineering route. Works well - drills wells when Republicans are in office, cleans up brown fields and pollution when money flows from Democrats.
Comment by Motambe Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 3:27 pm
Another factor that I don’t think has been addressed above is the growth of on-line college degrees. Presumably online degrees would hurt secondary schools significantly more than the prestige universities.
Comment by commentator Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 3:34 pm
this is one of the best posts I have read on Capitol Fax in a long while. Illinois needs to clean up it’s act not just for our businesses but for the local units of governemnt
Comment by Shoedoctor Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 3:37 pm
State Grants to students in private schools in FY 2010 amounted to $182,000,000. Have not found more recent data.
A good place to start would be phase this out over the next four years and give to students going to public schools.
Won’t happen! Most of the GA will not allow it. The privates are too powerful.
Comment by Fedralist Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 3:52 pm
We have 4 EIU degrees in my family plus my grad degree from SIUC. Not sure to what extent this contributes to the overall decline in public university numbers, but why are the community colleges permitted to allow out-of-state, private, and sometimes religious colleges to come to their campuses to offer bachelor degrees? It makes no sense for Illinois-supported CC’s to import more out-of-state competition for Illinois public universities. ICCB/IBHE need to address this. If a bachelors degree is going to be offered on a CC campus, the provider should be an Illinois public university.
Comment by DQ Cards Fan Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 3:58 pm
===Most of the GA will not allow it. The privates are too powerful.===
I guess when you can’t spell your own blog name correctly, having a basic grasp of public policy is too much to expect.
What makes you think the public universities would enroll more low-income students, even if MAP was only available at the publics? MAP is like a voucher program, letting students decide which school to attend. You know, a market approach. And for the state’s $182 million investment? In return Illinois gets about double the number of college graduates each year.
So you’re right that the GA won’t restrict MAP to the public universities, but not because the privates are “too powerful.” It’ll be because the MAP program works well. The only hiccup with MAP is there isn’t enough money to help all of the needy students, especially those at community colleges.
Illinois needs to invest in education. From pre-school through grad school and beyond with life-long learning.
Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 4:13 pm
St. Louis Bob at 9:37 nailed a major part of the problem.
Comment by Blago's Hare Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 4:19 pm
I find it interesting to watch the U of I at Springfield (formerly Sangamon State University.
Originally conceived as junior-senior, Masters level institution and no dorms.
Now look at it- huge buildings, dorms and even lower division students.
Lot of money spent! But the U of I wanted it and what the U of I wants, the U of I gets.
This is never mentioned in Illinois higher education discussions. Ever wonder why?
Comment by Fedralist Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 4:21 pm
EIU also has faculty represented by UPI Local 4100. The other schools with the same bargaining unit are soon to follow. Ever try to downsize faculty with tenure? It’s worse if they are in the bargaining unit. Less students should mean less faculty, but the layoffs are occurring with administrators and staff.
Comment by Just maybe Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 4:36 pm
This is all great conversation, but it misses the heart of the matter. The reason that EIU and other public universities in Illinois are in crisis right now is that the state has made major de facto changes in higher ed funding policy, and it has made those changes rapidly and without changing the formal published policy. Everything about state university economics has been structured around receiving a large enough state appropriation that universities can offer an education to students at far below cost — presumably because the state views this as in the public good. Rapid and haphazard reductions in state appropriated funding are what’s is creating a crisis in 2015.
Major increases in expenditures at universities did not bring us to this moment (for the most part spending increases are actually in the ballpark of tracking inflation), although universities may well need to radically restructure their expenditures going forward if the state’s policy has indeed changed for good. Lack of quality of teaching or scholarship did not bring us to this moment, although all our universities (especially the directionals) have slack to take up here. Excessive or insufficient focus on recruiting any one particular demographic did not bring us to this moment, although recruiting certainly needs to be done according to a coherent strategy. Mismatches between supply and demand for particular fields of study did not bring us to this moment, although those mismatches do indeed exist and need to be faced.
All of these things are real problems and needs for change. But none of them are the reason we are having a this severe of a crisis in this particular year. Massive state budget cuts brought us to this moment, period.
Comment by Forgottonia Republic Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 4:56 pm
@Federalist, and Governors State University is transitioning to a 4 year institution and I honestly don’t know if there are many upper division colleges left in the country. It was an experiment from the 60s/70s and I don’t know how well it worked out in the long run.
Comment by MyTwoCents Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 5:48 pm
@- Fedralist - Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 3:52 pm:
State Grants to students in private schools in FY 2010 amounted to $182,000,000. Have not found more recent data.
A good place to start would be phase this out over the next four years and give to students going to public schools.
Won’t happen! Most of the GA will not allow it. The privates are too powerful.================
Federalist: would appreciate more information on where you found that number, and how many students were served by those grants.
“Close down the privates!” may be a fantastic rallying cry on the soapbox, but in the real world, there aren’t enough seats at public colleges to serve all those private college students.
Comment by Lynn S, Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 6:45 pm
@Lynn S,
Not trying to shut down privates. Went to private undergraduate college and received my Doctorate at a private university.
For data:
http://www.ibhe.org/Data%20Bank/DataBook/default.asp
Table V-1
Hope this helps. Lots of data at IBHE- Just Google IBHE Illinois
Comment by Fedralist Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 7:58 pm
Great post and comments. Complexity with no quick fixes.
Comment by Yossarian Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 8:42 pm
@ Federalist–
A direct link to the table you looked at would be even better. I’ve got a project to work on, and frankly, I don’t have the time to dig through the on-line IBHE book to find the statistic you cited.
Comment by Lynn S, Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:24 pm
@DQ Cards Fan 3:58 =…why are community colleges permitted to allow out of state, private, and sometimes religious colleges to come to their campuses to offer bachelor degrees?…
1. Usually the 4-year college pays rent on the space from the community college district. Originally, Illinois community colleges were supposed to be funded 1/3 state funding, 1/3 local property tax, and 1/3 tuition. The state funding has been cut back over and over again. Renting out space to other non-profit organizations helps pay the bills.
2. The community colleges offer the opportunity for their students to continue their education at the 4-year college while continuing their job and living at home. This saves them a lot of money.
Comment by DuPage Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 10:01 pm
@ Lynn
IBHE site Shows up as a direct link on my computer except you have to go to Student Financial Aid in center of page.
Comment by Fedralist Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 11:14 pm
Illinois isn’t the only state where students are looking elsewhere to attend college. Many states are consciously recruiting out of state or foreign students for their own universities. One frequently cited recent report on the practice characterizes it as an “arms race”:
https://static.newamerica.org/attachments/3120-out-of-state-student-arms-race/OutOfStateArmsRace-Final.b93c2211cdfb4c3da169d668fbb67cc1.pdf
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/02/07/arizona-colleges-out-of-state-students/1899499/
Comment by Secret Square Friday, Aug 21, 15 @ 8:18 am