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* From the Illinois Policy Institute’s news service…
One of the main focuses of the Illinois State Board of Education in the coming year is going to be accounting for the shortage of teachers. A reform advocate says the state needs to change how they qualify a hirable teacher.
In a call about the state’s latest update to their school district data, State Superintendent Tony Smith said that Illinois needs to address the state’s shortage of educators in the coming year.
“In the Midwest in particular, there is a significant teacher shortage,” he said. “We have to take good care of the teachers we have and really be looking at how we get others in the profession.”
Illinois requires not only a four-year degree but also a separate teacher training program and then a number of additional exams to be a teacher. It is also difficult for a teacher to use out-of-state experience to qualify for a position in a local school in Illinois.
Jeanne Allen, founder of the Center for Education Reform, said the additional steps that a teacher here has to take creates an artificial shortage.
“You constrain the supply by requiring traditional bureaucratic certification that doesn’t necessarily mean a teacher is a quality person or quality educator in the classroom,” she said. “You’re heavily reliant on union contracts that dictate who can teach, how long they can stay there, and how they’re evaluated.”
A list of unfilled teaching positions is here.
* WAND TV…
The Decatur School District has 39 unfilled teacher positions, the district’s superintendent told the State Senate’s Education Committee at a hearing Monday.
Superintendent Paul Fregeau told the committee the district has hired a full-time recruiter to find new teachers, but he said many teachers from other states are deterred by Illinois’ teacher certification process.
“Once people find out the steps they have to take to get certified here … they choose not to come,” Fregeau told the senators. Fregeau said he filled out one form to move professionally from Illinois to Missouri, but he said moving from Missouri to Illinois took eight steps.
Fregeau also told the senators that his last district in Missouri often received 150 applications for jobs, while jobs in the Decatur district often receive two or three applications.
* WCIA TV…
Teachers, superintendents and ISBE officials told lawmakers the shortage could be addressed by lowering scores for the basic skills test, making it easier for out-of-state teachers to transfer and possibly even a universal teaching license.
Another factor preventing many from entering the field is pay. […]
The Illinois Association of Regional Superintendents of Schools conducted a survey last year and found 75% of districts saw fewer qualified candidates than previous years.
Also, 16% of schools canceled programs or classes because of a lack of teachers. The most needed positions are in special education and PE.
* Sen. Andy Manar was also at the hearing…
“It’s hard to go to a college or university and spend $150,000, walk out and make $30,000 (as a new teacher) and not be valued by your community,” said Susie Niesman, vice president of the Decatur Education Association. “All of you had teachers that got you where you are today.”
Manar said some of the “low-hanging fruit” that could be dealt with immediately would not require extensive study to correct.
The layers of regulation surrounding licensing, for example, could be quickly streamlined if legislators work together to draft a bill and get it passed, and that alone could make a significant difference.
Alternative pathways to teaching include helping paraprofessionals complete the requirements to become teachers, “grow your own” programs that mentor middle and high school students and restoring funding to mentoring programs would help, Manar said. Funding to raise teacher salaries and training to help teachers who work with high-needs students, could all make a difference in the shortages, he added.
* Related…
* State allows educators to bypass some exams, courses for teacher licensing
* Programs for visually impaired students face teacher shortage
posted by Rich Miller
Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 12:49 pm
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Young people today are so much more aware of financial issues.
Who would want to not only not earn a decent living (until your later years) but put up with all the abuse coming from every direction?
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 12:58 pm
–“You constrain the supply by requiring traditional bureaucratic certification that doesn’t necessarily mean a teacher is a quality person or quality educator in the classroom,” she said. –
Oh please, it’s a couple of one-time tests. Not a heavy lift at all. You don’t get your four-year teaching degree and then decide not to enter the profession over a couple of tests.
I’m shocked that free marketeers like IPI don’t see the obvious market solution to increase the supply of teachers in the labor pool to meet the demand.
How does that generally work in capitalism, when supply doesn’t meet demand?
Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 12:59 pm
I think this may be a regional issue. Teaching positions can be highly competitive with hundreds of teachers applying for one position, and I know teachers where it has taken them years to get jobs. Again, I understand that may be the case in suburban Chicago or “better”, higher paying districts and not everywhere.
Comment by Just Observing Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 12:59 pm
Oh, and before we forget - quit talking about property tax freezes and taking pensions away. People with a choice of whether to begin their careers in Illinois or in a state that isn’t talking about squeezing school districts’ finances or reneging on contracts are likely to go elsewhere, and existing Illinois teachers who have the opportunity to jump ship are a little more likely to do so when the ship is taking on water. And why should a teacher from another state jump on board s sinking ship?
Comment by Whatever Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:00 pm
Campaigning to remove teacher’s union protection, attempting to lower salaries through “starve the beast” tactics, and constantly attacking promised pensions doesn’t help either.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:02 pm
1:02pm was I; auto-fill didn’t.
Comment by RNUG Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:04 pm
not sure wordslinger, but they may be talking about alternative certification.
Comment by alternative Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:05 pm
There are fewer students going into teacher education programs in Illinois universities. The students have seen what their teachers deal with every day and do not want to dedicate their lives for the pay and benefits.
Interesting that the legislators are talking about lessening the requirements to become teachers when the legislators have been the source of laws that make teacher’s jobs harder. All this school reform and requirements for getting and maintaining their licenses come from the organizations many of these legislators belong to such as ALEC that wants to weaken public education. A lot of the Education Accountability Act was ALEC language.
Comment by Nearly Normal Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:05 pm
2 years ago when I was supervising student teachers, the most promising candidates moved out of state. 2 were counseled by their parents to leave the state because of pension issues & politics. It’s sad to see Illinois lose excellent potential teachers.
Comment by Interim Retiree Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:07 pm
There are lots of issues so I don’t mean to take away from others by highlighting one. Also, I’m generally pro-Union but one issue is that most union contracts don’t account for the field when determining salary. Thus a PE teacher makes the same as a special ed, math, or science teacher for one example.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:08 pm
I for one would like to see an easier, more streamlined process for professionals to go back to teach later in life. I’ve considered it myself. The way things are right now I could walk into an Illinois law school and teach today, but I’d have to jump through numerous bureaucratic hoops just to teach a high school business law class. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be some training and in-class supervised experience, I just wish it wasn’t like a 2 year process for people with advanced degrees already.
Comment by Ron Burgundy Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:12 pm
A look at that Tier II or III retirement plan would keep me out of Illinois.
Comment by Enemy of the State Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:12 pm
“$30,000 (as a new teacher)” Yet to hear people like Lucky Pierre talk, their property tax bill says they’re making too much. Can’t have it both ways.
Comment by Skeptic Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:15 pm
Here’s exactly how teachers (2) in my extended family explained “teacher shortages” to me;
There are about 10% of all the districts in Illinois teachers would “really” like to teach in.
Reasons are pay, respect, class sizes, district support, even school board support.
The irony is that obviously more wealthy districts populate most of that 10%, many are small rural districts where pay keeps up with local salaries and class sizes are small the administration and school board and teachers all live in these areas and know, trust, respect each other.
The issue they tell me, these “2” isn’t the shortage in some places, many places, lots of places…
… as teachers, they see fewer places where they choose to work and feel a partnership.
They are tired of hearing how teachers are enemies, “and pensions”… and “part time, 9 month” workers.
They see it as lack of opportunity for a quality working environment… not unlike non-teachers.
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:17 pm
==a look at that Tier II or Tier III retirement plan would keep me out of ILlinois==
And the toxic environment under which teachers teach. There is no good reason to go into Education in ILlinois, pension or otherwise. Kids have wised up to that.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:17 pm
CPS has no problem filling open teaching positions. I think the shortage may have to do where the jobs are located. People aren’t looking to live in rural Illinois.
Comment by Ron Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:18 pm
=== How does that generally work in capitalism, when supply doesn’t meet demand? ===
Since 2011, new teachers go into the Tier II pension. While Tier I teachers can retire at age 55 after 35 years of teaching, those in Tier II have to wait 12 years longer, until age 67. While Tier I retirees enjoy the 3% AAI, those in Tier II get a much lower AAI the won’t keep up with inflation. Despite having to work until a more advanced age, and getting an inferior pension, they pay the same as their counterparts in Tier I. No wonder smart young people are avoiding Illinois classrooms.
Comment by anon2 Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:21 pm
===People aren’t looking to live in rural Illinois.===
That’s not true.
What is true is how the district may be, how teachers are treated, the quality of the work environment, and if a spouse can find work there too…
… not unlike other professions.
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:21 pm
=Illinois requires not only a four-year degree but also a separate teacher training program and then a number of additional exams to be a teacher. =
During the process of obtaining a college degree and teaching license in Illinois the education courses (teacher preparation) are imbedded in the program, not additional. The IPI is being purposefully deceptive here and I don’t really understand why. They think it is too hard to be a teacher now? Give me a break.
It is also difficult for a teacher to use out-of-state experience to qualify for a position in a local school in Illinois.
=Jeanne Allen, founder of the Center for Education Reform, said the additional steps that a teacher here has to take creates an artificial shortage.
“You constrain the supply by requiring traditional bureaucratic certification that doesn’t necessarily mean a teacher is a quality person or quality educator in the classroom,” she said. “You’re heavily reliant on union contracts that dictate who can teach, how long they can stay there, and how they’re evaluated.”=
The licensure issue is from the ISBE and that determines what and at what grade level someone can teach. Contracts may have some stipulations in them but usually it is about pay and workload. Go read one, she clearly hasn’t.
And when the most recent licensure changes were put in lace, I know for a certainty that the NEA was opposed and stated as much at P-20 meeting I attended. The changes eliminated flexibility and made it very challenging for out of state candidates, particularly those who received their license and preparation outside of Illinois., to get licensed in Illinois. I suspect this was done to encourage students to go to Illinois schools, but I am probably just being cynical there.
At the end of the day the IPI and other market-economy delusional think you can require a college education and pay people peanuts and get the top quality with an ample supply. They do not even understand or believe their own words. A shortage should create higher demand and pay.
The shortage that is happening is not simply due to requirements or bureaucracy, compensation is the number one driver.
They know that but cannot be honest about it since they have championed the poor pay and diminished benefits.
Comment by JS Mill Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:22 pm
1.) K-12 education is mostly funded by property tax in this state.
2.) A lot of districts (there are a few too many of them) are already taxing excessively on their only source of revenue.
3.) The tax base in a lot of districts isn’t great to begin with.
4.) This means Illinois can’t afford to pay teachers.
5.) There’s this thing called the labor market.
Therefore, the state should increase income tax revenues and increase K-12 education through that magic formula they just created which would allow local governments and school districts to
A.) Reduce their property tax millage.
B.) Increase spending in their schools and pay teachers more.
C.) Recruit and retain more K-12 educators instead of the ones that don’t have better options.
Bonus: Increased income tax revenue can be used to finance re-amortizing the payments the state is requiring itself to make towards the money the state owes the pension fund.
Revenue is the issue. Not education. In Illinois revenue is always the issue.
Comment by Anon Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:25 pm
I am sorry, but if you are choosing to spend $150,000 to get a degree in education where you know what the starting pay will generally be, that’s your own issue/fault.
Comment by Shemp Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:37 pm
One branch of the IPI reporting on a problem another branch of IPI helped create. Irony at it’s finest!
Comment by Smitty Irving Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:39 pm
Smart teachers just pay the minimum each month until they hit 10 years and get student debt forgiveness.
Comment by Robert the 1st Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:43 pm
That’s the point, Shemp. Students are choosing NOT to spend their college dollars on an Education degree. They’ve wised up, thanks to the bashing of the media, legislature, public, you name it. Hence, there are shortages. Magical stuff happening here. Who would ever think that you can pay educated people squat, trash their work and they’ll still flock to the job?
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:51 pm
===I am sorry, but if you are choosing to spend $150,000 to get a degree in education where you know what the starting pay will generally be, that’s your own issue/fault===
Someone should check out the in state tuition at Illinois Public Universities and walk that outrage back a little bit.
Y’all are the ones that makes it cost more for in state tuition in Illinois than for out of state tuition in Iowa or even Missouri.
Comment by Anon Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 1:53 pm
Given the attitude toward teachers in this state, I’d predict that standards will be lowered or altered to allow other professionals to teach without all the hoops to jump through and standards for Education majors will also be lowered. Parents want top notch geniuses with uber degrees and maximum experience to teach their children but don’t want to pay for that expertise. Hence, the lowering of standards. It will be a necessity in order to get people into classrooms.
If anyone thinks that there are hordes of teachers wanting to teach in Illinois but they don’t have in state credentials, then they are practicing wishful thinking.
If shortages are real, I have no clue why anyone would be surprised, given the full out assault on teachers in this state. The altruistic population has shrunk. Thanks to our media for not only the attacks on those who educate our kids, but also the exposure to other options for work (with that college degree) and what it can do for your life.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 2:12 pm
Two points, not exactly related, but it keeps me from writing two posts.
1. I don’t know who Jeanne Allen is or her background, but she is demonstrably wrong on her assertions that unions =dictate who can teach, how long they can stay there, and how they’re evaluated.”= In 2011 Madigan pushed through an educational reform bill that drastically weakened protections for teachers.
2. When I talk to potential K-12 teachers studying at my college I emphasize that you really have to love the job and be willing to make it a career. Why? Tier II hires who graduate when they are 21 will have to work 46 years for a full pension. Retiring even one year early will seriously erode your benefits. Also, keep in mind that the reforms mentioned above will make it easier for your school district to force you out early. Why put up with it?
Comment by G'Kar Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 2:14 pm
=== Smart teachers just pay the minimum each month until they hit 10 years and get student debt forgiveness ===
It’s not that simple.
Teachers are not eligible for the federal PSLF program, which forgives all federally-held debt tax-free. They are eligible for teacher-specific programs, and I believe (though I can’t find the information right now) they have to pay taxes on the forgiven or cancelled debt.
From the Dept of Ed:
“The Teacher Loan Forgiveness Program is intended to encourage individuals to enter and continue in the teaching profession. Under this program, if you teach full-time for five complete and consecutive academic years in certain elementary and secondary schools and educational service agencies that serve low-income families, and meet other qualifications, you may be eligible for forgiveness of up to a combined total of $17,500 on your Direct Subsidized and Unsubsidized Loans and your Subsidized and Unsubsidized Federal Stafford Loans. If you have PLUS loans only, you are not eligible for this type of forgiveness.”
“Teacher Cancellation:
You qualify for cancellation (discharge) of up to 100 percent of a Federal Perkins Loan if you have served full-time in a public or nonprofit elementary or secondary school system as a
teacher in a school serving students from low-income families; or
special education teacher, including teachers of infants, toddlers, children, or youth with disabilities; or
teacher in the fields of mathematics, science, foreign languages, or bilingual education, or in any other field of expertise determined by a state education agency to have a shortage of qualified teachers in that state.
Eligibility for teacher cancellation is based on the duties presented in an official position description, not on the position title. To receive a cancellation, you must be directly employed by the school system. There is no provision for canceling Federal Perkins Loans for teaching in postsecondary schools.”
Those are some very specific requirements, varying by the type of school, teaching position, and even the type of loan.
Comment by Nortorious RBG Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 2:18 pm
Someone can have years of experience teaching at the college level but still not be eligible for high school teaching in Illinois,
Comment by dr. reason a, goodwin Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 2:25 pm
““It’s hard to go to a college or university and spend $150,000, walk out and make $30,000 (as a new teacher)…”
The nearby “poor” school district by me starts teachers out at $44,000 with no social security to deduct from pay. Not a windfall, but by no means bad for straight out of college. We’ve hired staff accountants for less.
Comment by City Zen Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 2:34 pm
Come on City. Enough with the smoke and mirrors. Instead of 6.2% social security, the deduction is
9%. And that TRS pension is the only thing you get when you retire.
Hmmmmm. My experience has shown me that the people who disparage teachers the most are the ones who had trouble in school, either academically or behaviorally. Just sayin
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 2:39 pm
==Instead of 6.2% social security, the deduction is 9%.==
No, that accountant pays 6.2% in social security AND 9% into a 401k, lest he be destitute in his old age. And his wages are suppressed an additional 6.2% for the employer social security match.
== And that TRS pension is the only thing you get when you retire.==
Because that’s all they pay into. I don’t pay into TRS. Should I get a TRS pension?
Honors student here, but teachers noted they saw the back of my head a lot.
Comment by City Zen Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 2:48 pm
I think some teachers do qualify for PSLF. I believe that’s what my cousin used (who is an IL educator) for debt forgiveness of around $30k.
Comment by Robert the 1st Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 2:53 pm
Those who fail to learn from history are bound to repeat it. Historically (at least dating back to 1946), when we have experienced a “full employment economy” (aka low unemployment rates), we have had teacher shortages. Today, in that respect, is no different. But couple that with the issues raised by Wordslinger, Oswego WIlly, and JS Mill, and –bam– you have a teacher shortage that may not be curable in the near term. One can look to Finland, Germany, and Japan as examples of countries where teachers are valued (paid well) and revered (respected). We always want to be like other nations in an economic sense. It has a cost. Some are willing to pay it. If one thinks education is expensive, try ignorance — it has a huuuuggge cost.
Comment by Diogenes in DuPage Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 3:01 pm
= We’ve hired staff accountants for less.=
Well, the audits ought to be fun. I guess somebody has to be last in every class.
Comment by JS Mill Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 3:08 pm
Another angle here is people who try to make lateral career moves into teaching. Illinois has an insane number of requirements for people with 4-year degrees to get licensed as a school teacher compared to other states. It’s not JUST going back to education college for a degree, and people all but have to give up their day jobs to do their student teaching semester.
Comment by lake county democrat Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 3:09 pm
JS Mill, for alleged free marketeers, IPI has an odd understanding of capitalism.
I’m pretty sure that cutting pay and benefits is not the way to increase the labor supply to meet a shortage.
Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 3:11 pm
“people all but have to give up their day jobs to do their student teaching semester.” and that includes people who have been actively teaching but weren’t certified at the time. So, yes a person with 8 years classroom experience teaching high school had to spend a semester as a student teacher.
Comment by Skeptic Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 3:19 pm
===Someone should check out the in state tuition at Illinois Public Universities and walk that outrage back a little bit.===
You can very easily go to public colleges in Illinois and come out with a bachelors of ed without ending up $150,000. Just because someone feels they have to doesn’t mean it’s the best or only path. You can go to junior college and then spend two years at Eastern/Northern/Southern/Western and walk out with less than $50,000 in total tuition. And if you go to the local juco, you can avoid dorm/apartment costs. And some people actually hold part time jobs while in school to offset some of those costs. I know it’s totally crazy, but it can be done. Did it myself.
Comment by Shemp Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 3:25 pm
Any teacher shortage could be made up with simple salary increases. There are lots of jobs, actually most, that are worse than being a teacher. Teachers have lots of challenges, like most jobs. Human rewards like few other jobs. Also, like the potential summers off. And generally the hours are good.
Lots of great posts on this thread.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 3:38 pm
Illinois Policy Institute, queen of the teacher-bashers, is wondering why there’s a teacher shortage?
Look in the mirror.
Comment by TinyDancer(FKASue) Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 3:47 pm
Who wouldn’t want to spend four years in college and three years in graduate school only to be handed a pack of mind-numbing test-prep materials?
Comment by TinyDancer(FKASue) Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 3:52 pm
Simple salary increases?
On what planet do you live? See above mention of 44K as being generous. (generous depending on where exactly in ILlinois you live) Most ingrates feel teachers need pay cuts. These ingrates usually are making multiples more than teachers.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 3:58 pm
If teaching is truly such a great job there wouldn’t be a shortage of teachers. When my daughter was in Kindergarten I volunteered a couple of hours twice a week to assist with the math and reading “stations” in class. After leaving there I stopped by Starbucks for a venti latte to recharge and felt like going to my job was like going on vacation.
I do understand why neo-cons admire cancerous capitalists like our illustrious governor so much because both hold the view of extracting as much from society as possible over the short-run and then moving along.
It is the “slash and burn agriculture” approach to the world with equally dismal longer term results.
Comment by former southerner Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 4:06 pm
Are Illinois teachers not paying into social security still? If Illinois teachers don’t get social security and now no pension why would they want to work in Illinois?
Comment by Claude Peppers Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 4:14 pm
Take the money you would pay into SS and put it in a Roth IRA. With the future diminishments coming to SS younger teachers would be be better off. Wish I could opt out of SS.
Comment by Robert the 1st Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 4:20 pm
== Are Illinois teachers not paying into social security still? ==
Yes, no SS.
Comment by RNUG Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 4:22 pm
== See above mention of 44K as being generous.==
Never said it was generous, just provided sorely lacking context. But no experience, straight out of college, and no social security withholding (essentially $5,500 bonus), better than average health benefits…is that compensation package that bad?
Comment by City Zen Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 4:29 pm
CZ, I don’t get the math on your “essentially $5500 bonus” calculation from not paying SS on a salary of $44k. Even counting Medicare, I get about $3400. Quite a bit less.
The calculation should also include the decreased value of Tier II or III pension and the decreasing number of employers picking up the full TRS contribution.
Comment by Arthur Andersen Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 4:43 pm
Is this the same state that’s soon handing its schools a 2-year property tax freeze?
Comment by Math (usually) Doesn’t Lie Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 4:53 pm
AA: $44,000 * 12.4% = $5,500 total SSI withholding. The employer’s 6.2% portion is compensation that could otherwise go to salary or an alternate retirement fund.
==Wish I could opt out of SS.==
Yep. Folks wonder why no one has enough saved for retirement. But when you flush 6.2% of your salary towards a low performing insurance fund that gets reduced the more you earn and your employer does likewise, it’s not easy to save for retirement.
Imagine 12.4% of your career earnings invested just like TRS. That why I tell folks it’s not pension envy, it’s social security regret.
Comment by City Zen Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 5:06 pm
CZ
There you go again with your wild exaggerations.
What would you possible know about health benefits for teachers?
Each individual district (remember local control?) negotiates their own health benefits. A school a mile down the road, in a different district, but same community could have vastly different pay scales, benefits.
When people who know absolutely nothing about how schools and school districts operate, they need to stop their urge to comment.
You obviously don’t know jack.
You also don’t seem to grasp the concept of TRS. Not every school district picks up that payment. So, instead of salary minus 6.2%, it’s salary minus 9%. If you think that’s more take home money, you’re not the genius you think you are.
I repeat. All ILlinois teachers are not on one salary schedule, benefit package, retirement agreement (who pays what). Wise up.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 5:09 pm
The last two presidential administrations have have done a lot to discourage people from entering the profession with their policies.
My time teaching in DOC was much more enjoyable and rewarding than my time in the public schools. The irony is I had more freedom to teach how I wanted while teaching in prison than I did in the public schools.
Comment by Anon Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 5:34 pm
Ok all those teacher bashers, now is your time to shine. Since you are saying teachers are paid too much, step up to the plate and getcha some. They are hiring.
Comment by Generic Drone Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 7:38 pm
=Imagine 12.4% of your career earnings invested just like TRS=
Did you sleep through 1987, 1999, and 2008?
Pension funds, Social Security, etc. have long time lines. Individuals don’t.
“We will not have any more crashes in our time.”
- John Maynard Keynes in 1927
“Some pretty intelligent people are now buying stocks… Unless we are to have a panic — which no one seriously believes, stocks have hit bottom.”
- R. W. McNeal, financial analyst in October 1929
Comment by TinyDancer(FKASue) Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 9:17 pm
==Did you sleep through 1987, 1999, and 2008?==
Did you sleep through math class?
Take a starting salary of $20,000. Compound 4% annual raises until retirement in 43 years (age 65). Take that 12.4%/yr that would have gone into social security and instead invest it in the same stock market TRS invests in and assume the same 8% rate of return TRS used for decades.
You’d have a $1.4 million retirement fund at age 65. You could withdraw $100,000 per year and never make a dent in the principal. Can social security make the same argument?
Comment by City Zen Tuesday, Nov 7, 17 @ 10:25 pm
@City Zen
Um………. you do realize that the market goes up and down?
This isn’t math. It’s history.
“Stock prices have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau. I do not feel there will be soon if ever a 50 or 60 point break from present levels, such as (bears) have predicted. I expect to see the stock market a good deal higher within a few months.”
- Irving Fisher, Ph.D. in economics, Oct. 17, 1929
So, it took 25 years for the market to recover after the 1929 crash.
Most retirees can’t wait that long for their cash.
Comment by TinyDancer(FKASue) Wednesday, Nov 8, 17 @ 12:14 am
===Did you sleep through math class?===
You gotta cut people a break in Illinois. They think pensions are expensive because they passed a law to avoid making payments — so compound interest worked against them instead of for them.
Plus, there’s multimillion dollar ad campaigns by politicians deliberately misleading them.
Comment by Anon Wednesday, Nov 8, 17 @ 12:19 am
=assume the same 8% rate of return=
Is that a good rate of return? Not if the inflation rate is 10%.
=You could withdraw $100,000 per year=
And what’s the value of $100,000 43 years from now?
Comment by TinyDancer(FKASue) Wednesday, Nov 8, 17 @ 1:32 am
–The IPI is being purposefully deceptive here and I don’t really understand why.–
Lol. You must be an IPI virgin.
Comment by Da Big Bad Wolf Wednesday, Nov 8, 17 @ 7:15 am
==Is that a good rate of return? Not if the inflation rate is 10%.==
10% inflation of 43 years? We’ve got bigger problems if that’s the case. And I’d wager yearly raises would have to be greater than 4% or at least track closer to inflation than in my example.
==And what’s the value of $100,000 43 years from now?==
My assumption is based on $20,000 starting salary which is applicable to someone more than half way through their career. So I’d wager $100,000/yr in retirement 10 years from now will still be a significant amount, but at least double what social security will pay out. Or I can raise my starting salary to that teacher I cited earlier making $44,000.
Look, I’m just running the math, using the exact same assumptions the state’s pension systems use. If my results are not realistic, then what does that say about our state pensions?
Comment by City Zen Wednesday, Nov 8, 17 @ 7:37 am
==Or I can raise my starting salary to that teacher I cited earlier making $44,000.==
Why in the world would you assume a $20,000 starting salary? That’s not even a serious base to start your math lesson from.
You’re doing your best to make a low salary seem good with a ridiculous argument about not being in Social Security.
Comment by Demoralized Wednesday, Nov 8, 17 @ 7:54 am
==Why in the world would you assume a $20,000 starting salary?==
What if my example starting working in the 1980’s?
==You’re doing your best to make a low salary seem good with a ridiculous argument about not being in Social Security.==
Actually, my example shows just how poorly the federal government manages 12.4% of lifetime earnings for someone who is solid middle-class.
Comment by City Zen Wednesday, Nov 8, 17 @ 8:41 am
==If my results are not realistic, then what does that say about our state pensions?==
That pension systems can absorb more risk than individuals can because the outlays of a pension system are more evenly spread over a much longer time period for which an 8% average return is realistic.
Comment by Tier 2 Employee Wednesday, Nov 8, 17 @ 8:42 am
The bottom line is that word is right. You want to help fix the shortage? Raise the pay.
Comment by Demoralized Wednesday, Nov 8, 17 @ 8:59 am
@City Zen
“10% inflation of 43 years? We’ve got bigger problems if that’s the case.”
Did you sleep through the 70’s and 80’s also?
“I’d wager $100,000/yr in retirement 10 years from now will still be a significant amount”
Can I borrow your crystal ball? I’d like to short the bond market.
The whole point is that the market/interest rates are unpredictable so one needs a very long timeline to smooth it out - pension funds have a long timeline. Individuals do not.
I’m done.
Take Econ 101.
Comment by TinyDancer(FKASue) Wednesday, Nov 8, 17 @ 9:46 am