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* Quincy Herald Whig…
A report by the National Governor’s Association showed enrollment in bachelor’s level teacher programs in Illinois declined from 24,206 to 14,685 between 2000 and 2015, and those completing the programs dropped by an equal percentage.
Whoa.
posted by Rich Miller
Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:15 am
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Looks like our race to the bottom is a HUGE success! /s
Comment by WhoKnew Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:19 am
They tried law instead.
It’s time to get those holding a law degree into teaching. That’ll be a good fit.
Comment by VanillaMan Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:21 am
How does this compare to the national drop?
Comment by Ron Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:23 am
If you treat a profession with contempt and disdain for long enough, folks will decide to do something else.
Comment by Pot calling kettle Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:27 am
Which candidate for governor will be fighting for teachers in Illinois?
Which candidate after three years has yet to fully fund higher education, where teachers are made and prepared for their craft?
Which candidate feels that Chicago teachers are illiterate and also has contempt for the teaching trade?
When a governor has obvious distain for Illinois higher education… and teachers… what students want to be trained, educated, and work in a state where the profession is looked down upon as our current governor does… for educators?
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:27 am
===How does this compare to the national drop?===
Use the google.
Thanks.
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:27 am
No worries. Under the law of supply and demand, the answer is to cut teacher pay and pensions.
Am I getting that right?
Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:29 am
This is a problem at the national level, and for a multitude of reasons. I guess that means that Rauner has expanded his reach. At least that’s what some people here will suggest.
Comment by SSL Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:31 am
Tier 2.(period)
Comment by DuPage Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:36 am
“the profession has been hit with low morale over low pay, unfair evaluation methods, assaults on due-process rights, high-stakes testing requirements, insufficient resources and other issues.”
SSL, While most of these are national issues, you might want to consider the fact that Tier II pensions being less valuable than social security might be a unique contribution to Illinois’ teacher shortage.
Comment by Ole' Nelson Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:37 am
Looks like CA techer enrollment was down 53% from 2010 to 2015. Wisconsin is down over 30%. Georgia is down 17%. Pennsylvania is down 60%.
Comment by Ron Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:37 am
DuPage
We must have been typing at the same time. You are spot on.
Comment by Ole' Nelson Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:38 am
SSL, exactly. Teacher program enrollment is plummeting nationwide. Nothing unique to Illinois.
Comment by Ron Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:40 am
==Nothing unique to Illinois.==
That’s nice. It doesn’t mean it’s not a problem.
Comment by Demoralized Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:42 am
Perspective is always helpful though.
Comment by Ron Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:44 am
Treat them like garbage for long enough, see what happens. Hard to believe that people aren’t lining up around the block for mediocre pay and underfunded schools where they spend their own tiny salary on books for kids.
Comment by PJ Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:48 am
–It’s time to get those holding a law degree into teaching. That’ll be a good fit.–
That would be good if the requirements weren’t so onerous. Someone with a JD can walk into a law school and teach right now, but must undergo a bunch of classes and exams to teach a HS business law course. Sure, some basic training on dealing with students is necessary.
As for undergrad education training, as an aside I’ve wondered if students aren’t better off getting a bachelors in the subject they intend to teach and then getting their education training through a certification program or a Master’s program.
Comment by Ron Burgundy Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:50 am
From the National Center for Education Statistics:
The average salary for public school teachers in 2015–16 was $58,064 in current dollars (i.e., dollars that are not adjusted for inflation). In constant (i.e., inflation-adjusted) dollars, the average salary for teachers was 1 percent lower in 2015–16 than in 1990–91.
All those years that there was a glut in supply, we were told salaries were kept down because of the law of supply and demand. Now there is a demand for teachers, so I am quite sure salaries will begin to really escalate./s
Comment by Interim retiree Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:50 am
UIUC stats provide a bit of insight. More and more women, who make up 80% of education majors on campus, are foregoing the liberal arts path and pursuing the sciences.
Enrollment in Engineering/Env Sciences/Applied Health/ Business all increased over 15 years whereas
Education/Liberal Arts/Social Work decreased.
Women see more options in the workforce. That is a good thing.
Comment by City Zen Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:51 am
==where they spend their own tiny salary==
I just did the taxes of a teacher friend of mine and he had about $2,000 in unreimbursed job expenses last year.
Who wouldn’t want a job that in a lot of cases pays mediocre and where you are required to spend your own money on supplies and other materials?
Comment by Demoralized Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:51 am
==Now there is a demand for teachers, so I am quite sure salaries will begin to really escalate==
Sorry, we can’t increase their pay - we have to cut corporate taxes! Won’t someone think of the job creators?
Comment by PJ Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:52 am
Would you really want to be a teacher in Illinois with this mess?
Comment by Just Me Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:54 am
Other than the low pay, reduced pensions, often poor working conditions, being treated like the poor relation at budget time with more cuts constantly on the horizon, and serving as a prennial whipping boy for blamed for right-wing blowhards who would last maybe 15 minutes in the classroom, why would anyone bypass this dream career?/s
Oops—almost forgot the constant refrain from know-nothings that “anyone can teach.”
Comment by Crispy Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:54 am
As a retiring teacher this year, I am telling all of my high school students to go to school to get teaching degrees, as it is the surest way to get a good, solid job with a great quality life. Tier 2 or Tier 3? I’m not sure if it will be around forever for these future teachers because the pot may need to be sweetened for them because of the forthcoming teacher shortage. (And yes, I understand about the unfunded liability of the pensions being an issue.) I do agree that the demonizing of this profession by political know-it-alls have had an adverse effect on the numbers.
Comment by Mr. B.A. Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:57 am
Whoopsie—meant to type, “perennial whipping boy of right-wing blowhards,” etc. Hey, don’t blame me—I’m not a teacher. …
Comment by Crispy Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:58 am
I’m shocked. Shocked.
You mean intelligent gifted individuals are choosing to go into professions where they will be respected, valued, and well-compensated as opposed to a profession where they are vilified, blamed for all societal ills - where their autonomy has been revoked, their judgement and methodology questioned, mind-numbing test-prep is mandated, and they are underpaid with reduced retirement benefits to boot?
This ain’t the 50’s - the choice is no longer between secretary, nurse, stewardess, or teacher.
Wake up.
Comment by TinyDancer(FKASue) Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:59 am
City Zen, agreed on the expansion of options for women. The irony is that we as a culture are pushing students into the sciences and there now is a glut in those fields. At the same time the long-term data are showing essentially no difference in income 15 years out for humanities majors vs. science majors. And the over-supply in the sciences is a real thing now. There will be hell to pay for this generation down the line.
Comment by Texian Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:59 am
The teacher shortage is real, it is hurting the areas outside of the collar counties hard and it is starting to hit the burbs.
WIU has 59 education grads. 59. ISU has a program with 1 student right now. 1
Comment by JS Mill Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 12:02 pm
Illinois State University, illinois’ oldest public university, was founded as a teachers’ university.
To ISU’s total credit, through the decades, the university as grown to be a fine university, seen as a top institution in business, the arts… and it’s education roots.
Bruce Rauner has purposefully refused to fully fund ISU, and all public universities in Illinois, for a full fiscal year, never signing funding since taking the oath.
“And gladly would he learn and gladly teach”
The old motto of ISU, the Chaucer quote, gender un-friendly, but the sentiment…
“And gladly would we learn and gladly teach”
Making it gender neutral… we’re losing sight on education with the RaunerS, as Illinois State or Western, or “Carbondale”… they ain’t Dartmouth… so teachers that had an ISU… ISU isn’t getting the funding, and before I read “they’re doing great”…
… funding something at a level of zero, that’s wanting it gone, no matter how you want to judge a result.
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 12:14 pm
Texian - It seems we can never find the right balance in skill shortages. When I started college, there was a shortage of engineers. By the time I graduated, employers were saying “we have too many engineers.”
I think we’re close to the point of beginning to “outsource” teaching, so to speak. We do it for plenty of professions already. States like CA and NV are currently hiring teachers from the Philippines. I would not be surprised to see that expand.
Comment by City Zen Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 12:17 pm
JS Mill, which program at ISU is down to one student? I hadn’t heard about that yet and I live in that area. To the post- I have three kids in school right now and our district consolidated schools to close on of the elementary schools last fall. We are expecting another round in the next few years as enrollment drops. Teaching is great, if there are students in the area. Some of these rural districts are going to be hit hard over the next 5-10 years though with layoffs of enrollment continues dropping.
Comment by Fixer Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 12:19 pm
For how many years have the Democratic GA not paid the State’s fair share of K-12 education? How many years did they fail to fund the pension system so now you have a Tier 2 to pay for the retirees of Tier 1 and the Tier 2 get less benefits in the future? Both parties are responsible for this mess but the Lion’s share goes to your illustrious leader Michael Madigan.
Comment by Stand Tall Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 12:19 pm
While Illinois has not dropped to the level of Oklahoma, West Virginia, or Kentucky let’s give Bruce a chance. Maybe some more pension cuts or revisions and making teachers work until they are 65 plus to collect that meager pension will get us there. At the very least let’s keep blaming teachers for lack of funding and poor student achievement and we can get there. If we could just pass RTW and skip a few more pension payments all would be well.
Comment by Old and In The Way Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 12:26 pm
Fixer, I too would love to see the source for 1 ISU grad.
Comment by Ron Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 12:37 pm
“If you treat a profession with contempt and disdain for long enough, folks will decide to do something else.”
Occam’s Razor.
– MrJM
Comment by @misterjayem Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 12:46 pm
City Zen, that would be a sad day. We all know how well outsourcing customer service has worked for big companies. LOL. Going online is a lot like outsourcing, however. A lot of the major high school online websites are essentially outsourced education. And the education you get on those websites is just as good as you’d expect it to be.
The writing skills of students has slipped a great deal in the last two decades since the standardized testing mania took over K-12 education. No Child Left Behind left them all behind. That now means universities have to teach skills that used to be part of a high school education. The sad thing is that the focus on math and science hasn’t led to an improvement in test scores in those two areas.
It’s almost like we should quit pushing students in certain directions and just give them a good basic education and let them decide what they want to major in. What an insane idea.
Comment by Texian Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 12:49 pm
I retired after a very long career as an educator. I would not encourage young people to enter the profession. Low pay, mediocre benefits, lack of respect from students, parents, administrators, and the community are ongoing. There are better more profitable professions for young people to turn to. The lack of respect from the law makers, and state administrators is hard to understand. “If you can read, thank a teacher.” They all act like they could have got where they are without the benefit of teachers. They are wrong.
Comment by Retired Educator Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 12:57 pm
I understand that the ISU foreign language majors in a teacher education program are almost gone. This was from a former member of the department. Would not surprise me that there may be only one in that department. Most of the majors are going into business and government not K-12. Try to find a French teacher to hire.
Comment by Nearly Normal Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 12:58 pm
Retired Educator is spot on. As a retired educator with 35 years of teaching, administering, and State Board of Education employment, I wouldn’t recommend anyone entering the teaching field in Illinois. Getting beat up every day is just not worth it.
Comment by Retired Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 1:13 pm
The self fulfilling prophecy…cry “poor teaching” and get poor candidates. The shortage isn’t as scary as the cadre quality.
Comment by wondering Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 1:14 pm
I say we blame the governor.
not that this current generation of women that are enrolling in college at higher levels than their male counterparts and they have their eyes on careers that are far more lucrative than teaching. Teaching is an ideal position for someone that wants to have great benefits and start a family. When I was in middle school and highschool probably 90 percent of the female teachers I had at one point or the other, got married, had a kid, and then had more kids. To lazily ignore the fact that women today are prioritizing career over marriage and children is just plain absurd.
Comment by Iggy Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 1:14 pm
I teach at a community college and I routinely have students ask me about teaching for a career. I routinely tell them to follow their dream, but have your eyes wide open. I also strongly suggest they pick another state once they graduate, as Tier II is so unattractive and so draconian for someone who has to retire earlier than 67. Asking someone to commit to 46 years in the classroom is asking a lot.
Comment by G'Kar Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 1:25 pm
I’m married to a teacher who will likely exit the teaching profession as soon as possible for all the reasons others have already mentioned. We know of several educators leaving the profession after this school year for the same reasons. Some are simply done with everything politicians, pundits, parents, and students throw at them. Some are afraid the same geniuses in Springfield who have left TRS in shambles will strike again with major impact on the pensions they have rightfully earned. This attrition out of the profession is another troubling side of the same coin.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 1:40 pm
I have been a teacher for over 35 years. I love my job and I would do it again in a heartbeat. I could retire but I plan to stay another seven years or more.
Comment by ajjacksson Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 1:48 pm
=Fixer, I too would love to see the source for 1 ISU grad.=
Industrial Arts education. Funny that you would challenge anyone on the truth.
=As for undergrad education training, as an aside I’ve wondered if students aren’t better off getting a bachelors in the subject they intend to teach and then getting their education training through a certification program or a Master’s program.=
Maybe sit this one out. Anyone can learn content, teaching another person is the real challenge. It is both an art and a science. I cannot even begin to list the number of content experts that i have known that couldn’t teach a fish to swim.
Additionally, the idea that we should subject teachers to a requirement of addition years of school and additional cost, for a job that some think should be paid less with worse benefits is beyond absurd.
Comment by JS Mill Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 1:54 pm
==If you treat a profession with contempt and disdain for long enough, folks will decide to do something else.==
Couldn’t have said it better. My wife trained to be a teacher but quickly realized it was a lousy deal. She’s a librarian now.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 1:56 pm
Dusty Rhodes reported on NPR Illinois this morning about some of the various bills in the 100Th she is tracking. One would set the minimum beginning salary at $40,000. She challenged Sean Crawford (I think he was the host this morning) to take a guess at the average starting salary. He guessed a bit high, but it’s around $24-26000 per year.
Now, before some of you get on your high horse and say teaching is only a 9 month a year job, chill. Even if you only teach and have no other duties, calculate the gross pay of that over a 12 month period. Now factor in any student loans that may have to come out of that, as well as just basic living expenses.
We as a society don’t value our teachers on many levels, so why should we expect them to see value in the profession? This “deficit” in the profession has been coming for years, and we are going to pay for it one way or another.
Comment by Anon221 Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 1:56 pm
This should surprise no one, with remarks such as Secretary DeVos (”adults should keep disagreements in a separate place and serve the students.”) and Governors Matt Bevin (”a child was sexually assaulted because there was nobody there to watch them.”) and Mary Fallin (”teachers’ demands are like having a teenage kid that wants a better car.”)
Comment by Jocko Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 1:59 pm
Iggy, don’t lazily ignore the fact Republicans have been demonizing teachers since Bob Dole started it in 1975. NCLB was a product of it. The pension blame game furthers it.
Comment by wondering Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 2:00 pm
@Anon221- I heard the same thing, the current legislation has the minimum salary at $11,000. A minimum wage job would pay more than that in a year.
Comment by JS Mill Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 2:04 pm
ajjacksson, whoopy doo for you. What conclusion can we make out of that? or about you?
Comment by wondering Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 2:06 pm
===I have been a teacher for over 35 years. I love my job and I would do it again in a heartbeat. I could retire but I plan to stay another seven years or more.===
Ok… then…
===whoopy doo for you. What conclusion can we make out of that? or about you?===
Conclusion…
===“If you treat a profession with contempt and disdain for long enough, folks will decide to do something else.”===
I’m - wondering - why it’s not higher than a 39% decrease…
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 2:10 pm
Are there any more clever ways to bridge the gap here? What if, if you go to an IL public university and then teach in the state for 5+ (or 10+, this can be negotiated), your student loans (even private ones) are paid off by the state? If there are ways we can use state money to keep students in our schools and better public education, politicians are charged with identifying them.
Comment by Chris Widger Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 2:15 pm
==As a retired educator with 35 years of teaching, administering, and State Board of Education employment, I wouldn’t recommend anyone entering the teaching field in Illinois.==
That’s some legacy you have there.
Comment by City Zen Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 2:21 pm
OW: I guess for the same reason we continue to have some people going into selling used cars…go figure.CITY ZEN legacy of honesty.
Comment by wondering Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 2:31 pm
JS Mill- I thought I heard $9000 was the current minimum, not that it matters. What really matters, is that salary “value” is from the 1970’s. So, the $40,000 proposed isn’t even reaching the same “value” in today’s dollars-
$9,000.00 in 1975 had the same buying power as $42,749.83 in 2018
However, if it was $11,000, then the equivalent today would be $52,000+ .
https://www.dollartimes.com/
Comment by Anon221 Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 2:32 pm
I dunno too many folks wanting children educated by car sales folks over trained educators, but…
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 2:33 pm
OW, I was attempting to answer your question, “Why only a 39% decrease?” Compare the long term demonization of used car salesmen, we still have them, nonetheless. High quality folk /s/
Comment by wondering Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 2:51 pm
== One would set the minimum beginning salary at $40,000…the average starting salary is around $24-26000 per year.==
In Illinois or national? In Harvey SD152, home of the bankrupt police/fire pensions, the starting teacher salary is $42,873. Clinton CUSD15 starts at $36,150. Both districts pick up 100% of the employee pension contribution, which is included in the amounts above.
Granted, these are two random “poor” districts, but I’m not sure $26,000 is the average starting salary state-wide.
Comment by City Zen Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 3:24 pm
Who was the last governor that graduated from a public university? How about the legislative leaders?
Comment by Enemy of the State Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 4:46 pm
And so many support a $15 hour burger filpper
No degree. 31,200
Comment by Anon Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 4:46 pm
My daughter is a jr in high school. Says she wants to
Be a teacher. I just cringe and ask her to consider a different. Career
It’s so sad
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 4:49 pm
City Zen- that may be. There’s no posting of the conversation on NPR Illinois about this from this morning, and I was driving to work when I heard it. The closest I can find, is this report from Dusty last month in regards to starting salary levels-
http://nprillinois.org/post/curing-teacher-shortage-may-take-dollars-and-sense
Comment by Anon221 Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 4:56 pm
My wife works as a sub in our local junior high. About 600 students. There are 5 current openings, at least 5 teachers not planning to return, with 2-3 out for long term illness. They cannot find enough subs to cover their current needs. Major issue at every level: low salary.
Comment by zatoichi Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 5:24 pm
Benefits for teachers took a big chop for those hired after 2010, so it was predictable teaching would be less attractive. Younger teachers have to work 12 years longer to get a full pension, to age 67, and they get a meager annual adjustment that does not keep up with inflation, while paying just as much into the pension as their older colleagues who get to retire at age 55 with 35 years in.
Comment by anon2 Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 6:32 pm
Keep beating up on educators and watch teachers keep leaving in droves.
Comment by Generic Drone Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 6:39 pm
ajjacksson, I say this with all due respect, thank you for your service.
But this about this–if you started today just out of college at 21, you could work that 35 years and seven more, and you would still have to work four more years to qualify for your full pension. You could retire after 42 years at age 63, but your pension would be reduced 24%
Comment by G'Kar Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 7:58 pm
“In Wisconsin, the Assembly Committee on the Judiciary held a public hearing for Assembly Bill 693 (AB 693), also known as the Teacher Protection Act. The legislation proposes to require schools to notify police about any assault; require police to notify a school when a student has been taken into custody; give teachers the right to remove students from classrooms; and allow teachers to use reasonable and necessary force with civil immunity.”
http://schoolsafetylawblog.com/safety-law-news-for-february-16-2018/
Comment by John 56 Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 8:27 pm
ZEN, why are you bickering about salary levels? Your opinion is irrelevant. The market in this capitalistic society rules, There is a teacher shortage.
Comment by wondering Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 10:23 pm
My soon to be daughter in law could quickly find a job earning $40K plus as a beginning teacher (what I earned as a tenured associate professor 14 years ago at a regional university in a nearby state) which isn’t too bad.
However, she went to suburban Chicago to get it. The reality is that there is a shortage but you can do okay if you’re willing to leave rural Illinois. Just keeping it real.
Not arguing that it should be that way, just stating that it is.
Comment by Texian Tuesday, Apr 17, 18 @ 11:11 pm
==ZEN, why are you bickering about salary levels==
Because that’s what they do. Complain about salaries.
This is of course anecdotal but my best friend currently makes just over $50,000 after teaching for 25 years. I find that abhorrent. During the school year teachers spend more time with our kids than we do. We expect them to be teachers, counselors and a number of other things. They are expected to buy their own supplies for their classrooms. I would think we would value the people that we entrust our children to a little more than we do.
Comment by Demoralized Wednesday, Apr 18, 18 @ 8:17 am