* There’s been an attempt recently to try to pivot on Barack Obama’s statements about the Clinton archive records…
Barack Obama, who’s been scolding Hillary Rodham Clinton for not hastening the release of records from her time as first lady, says he can’t step up and produce his own records from his days in the Illinois state Senate. He says he hasn’t got any.
“I don’t have - I don’t maintain - a file of eight years of work in the state Senate because I didn’t have the resources available to maintain those kinds of records,” he said at a recent campaign stop in Iowa. He said he wasn’t sure where any cache of records might have gone, adding, “It could have been thrown out. I haven’t been in the state Senate now for quite some time.”
Obama’s statement that he has no papers from his time in the Illinois statehouse - he left in 2004 - stands in stark contrast to the massive Clinton file stored at the National Archives: an estimated 78 million pages of documents, plus 20 million e-mail messages, packed into 36,000 boxes. While any file from Obama’s time in the state Senate would be far smaller, the idea that no papers exist at all is questioned by one historian.
“Most of those guys do keep this stuff, especially the favorable stuff. They’ve all got egos,” said Taylor Pensoneau, a historian who has written about Illinois legislators and governors and worked with them as a lobbyist for the coal industry. “It goes in scrapbooks or maybe boxes. I don’t think it’s normal practice to say it’s all discarded.”
And…
The real issue, Clinton’s campaign said, is the availability of “schedules, memos and other documents” from Obama’s time in the state senate.
On Meet the Press Sunday, Obama said he did not have a scheduler and therefore there are no schedules to be had. A spokesman for the Obama campaign said Obama passed along many of his files to his successor, Kwame Raoul.
* I sent an e-mail to a handful of legislators this morning asking about their record-keeping practices. Here are the responses I’ve received so far…
* Rep. Lou Lang…
I think we all have large file cabinets and diaries that we keep for a while but there is not a special requirement that we keep any particular records in any particular way
* Rep. John Fritchey…
I would venture to say that I keep better files than most, but the only record of my meetings would be on the personal calendar that I keep. I do keep most substantive correspondence going back several years though. I would doubt that at the state legislative level, anybody keeps the type of contact records that they are referring to. There is a big difference between the state house and the White House.
* Sen. Jacqueline Collins…
As it relates to records. No, I don’t keep an account of who I meet with. My secretary may have the information jotted down on a daily schedule but I don’t think she retains that information because of the volume of paper we receive on a daily basis.
* Rep. Sara Feigenholtz…
We have old message books and my Chicago staff puts everything in outlook. I keep a lot of stuff… but after 13 years we have to purge so we don’t hoard.
* I’ll post more as they come in, but it looks to me like this Obama thing is just another national non-issue.
* Rep. Susanna Mendoza…
…I don’t religiously keep a detailed file or anything; it’s more like folders on bills with corresponding notes or info in them. Regarding my scheduling, I definitely don’t keep records of that and don’t really know anyone who does. So many of the meetings we end up having are not even scheduled and end up being with people who drive to Springfield to meet with legislators without a previous appointment. I’d be surprised if anyone keeps detailed records of their schedules and definitely believe Obama when he says that there probably aren’t any files or records of his to look over.
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- Anonymous - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:02 pm:
you don’t have to be accountable if there’s no record of your contacts/meetings…
- Levois - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:07 pm:
That doesn’t mean someone who wants to be president bad enough won’t make a big issue out of it anyway.
- phocion - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:07 pm:
It was Obama himself who made Clinton’s records an issue. This is classic blowback. Obama should have thought about his own glass house before he started hurling stones at Hillary.
- Been There - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:13 pm:
Maybe the good senator should check with the Illinois State Archives. There are specific requirements about the disposition of records for retiring legislators. He may be surprised what he could find.
- The 'Broken Heart' of Rogers Park - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:14 pm:
The passing of important meeting information and documents to the predecessor would be a more important issue.
How many politicians leaving office turn over pertinent documents for the incoming elected officials to have?
- Patriot - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:16 pm:
With each passing day, Obama makes Clinton’s job of discrediting him easier. He is an amateur in the professional world of politics.
- FED UP - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:16 pm:
This is another example of obama saying one thing and doing another. I bet names like Rezko were in his old meeting books and we wouldnt want to bring that up again. He is a Crook Co. Dem Machine pol made by Emil Jones,he is great to listen to but no substance.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:22 pm:
===There are specific requirements about the disposition of records for retiring legislators. ===
State law pertains to state agencies only. Rules don’t mention legislators. Do you have a citation or just blowing smoke?
- Charlie Ramp - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:25 pm:
Some of the legislators and commenters seem to be focused on whether it’s common to keep CALENDARS.
The question for Obama is whether he kept any records at all, such as letters or memos. He says no, even though Fritchey, Lang and others seem to suggest that’s unusual.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:26 pm:
CR, he said he left his stuff to Sen. Raoul. Big dif.
- zatoichi - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:27 pm:
You have to show yours, but I can’t produce the same kind of stuff because I do not have any. Please. I still have junk from high school. Barack’s stuff (ala George Carlin) is around. Maybe not Clintonian obsessive, but it exists. This seems like one of those spontaneous comments that sound good at the time but comes back to bite you.
- It's not a non issue - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:27 pm:
Rich, it might appear to be a non-issue, but I don’t believe that Obama did much as a State Senator which is reflective of all that he has done as a U.S Senator, Nothing.
State Legislators should keep records so that it won’t later come back and bite them.
- Rob_N - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:30 pm:
The legislators’ comments about that material is just common sense. Besides, his voting record, bill sponsorship record, etc. is public info already; maintained by the state.
It would make sense that any sort of daily diary or schedule keeper would’ve been tossed out since that stuff isn’t necessary after a while. It’s usefulness “expires”.
OTOH, the weirdness about Hillary’s records as First Lady comes in that the material hasn’t been processed after 7 years… I don’t know of any law requiring that the material be saved and archived, but since it’s sitting there waiting to be added to the Clinton Library it comes off looking strange that it hasn’t been taken care of yet. (Same goes for Pres. Bush’s records as Texas governor, etc.)
Levois, if someone’s going to try and make an issue out of such a non-issue like wanting to dig into then-State Sen. Obama’s trapper keeper or whatever it could easily backfire by looking like a lame attempt at distraction.
Then again, Obama’s has to a walk a fine line with statements like Fritchey’s reminding people that he was in the State Capitol not that long ago. (Fritchey: “There is a big difference between the state house and the White House.”)
- Rob_N - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:34 pm:
PS: Charlie Ramp, the legislators’ comments do not conflict with Sen. Obama’s statement that he left the material you describe with his successor.
- illinois insider - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:47 pm:
dan shomon’s photographic memory was used for all of barack’s record keeping and scheduling
- Rep. John Fritchey - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:48 pm:
Rob,
What I meant, but maybe didn’t properly articulate in a casual e-mail to Rich, is that both the need for, and expectation of, retaining those types of contact records is much lower for a state legislator than for a U.S. Senator.
There is a difference in wanting to know who Bush/Cheney met with in formulating our national energy policy as opposed to who came to see their state legislator to discuss questions regarding circuit breaker eligibility.
- I keep everything - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:57 pm:
I kept the Christmas cards that Barack has sent me over the years. I am mad to think he must have thrown out the ones I sent him.
- Don't Worry, Be Happy - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:58 pm:
Rich:
I’m curious - did you not poll any republicans, or did they just not respond? It would be interesting to know if republicans handle recordkeeping differently than the dems. You never know if this issue will outlast the primary and become the leading concern for November.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 1:58 pm:
So far, none of the half-dozen or more Republicans I queried about this have responded.
- GoBearsss - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 2:07 pm:
Easy Barack response would be to say that -
I didn’t have grand ambitions to be president 7 years ago (a dig at Hillary running for Senate as first lady). At the time, my office was more interested in recycling all the clutter from my tiny State House office than in preserving any memos for posterity.
- Arthur Andersen - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 2:16 pm:
Rich, the State Records Act applies only to the Executive Branch. 5 ILCS 160/2.
- There you go again - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 2:17 pm:
The highly-talented Dan Shomon would be the best resource to answer those questions. Dan Shomon toiled effectively in the vineyards with the state senator and deserves huge kudos from the presidential candidate.
- Discouraged - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 2:21 pm:
Agreement on the comment about “blowback”. Obama just reminded the entire country that he has been on the national stage for only 3 years and, in the eyes of the national media, that he was until that time just a ‘lowly state legislator’. It begs their questioning his “gravitas”. In their minds the score will be Hillary, 36,000 (i.e. boxes), Barack, 0 (i.e. “i didn’t have the resources to keep them). Some hands are better left unplayed.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 2:30 pm:
AA, that was exactly my point.
- Rob_N - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 2:41 pm:
Rep. Fritchey wrote, “[…] both the need for, and expectation of, retaining those types of contact records is much lower for a state legislator than for a U.S. Senator.”
“There is a difference in wanting to know who Bush/Cheney met with in formulating our national energy policy as opposed to who came to see their state legislator to discuss questions regarding circuit breaker eligibility.”
I understand that, but the point about reminding voters of Sen. Obama’s “green-ness” remains.
I’m neutral on the question of his experience, but it is a line of attack that is continuously used against him by opponents and as “Discouraged” just wrote, some hands are better left unplayed (directly by the candidate, at least — sometimes it’s better to use a proxy).
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 2:43 pm:
Rob, sometimes it’s best not to read too much into things.
- french fried - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 2:44 pm:
All the electeds you quote are supporting Obama. Do you really think any of them are going to respond differently???
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 2:47 pm:
FF, as I said earlier, the half-dozen or so Republicans I asked this very question of have not yet responded.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 2:47 pm:
But your hyper cynical response is noted. Thanks.
- Captain America - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 2:50 pm:
No issue at all here. There is no evidence that Obama has anything to hide. State Senators are under no obligation to retain records.
Hillary on the other hand probably has a lot to hide, but not necessarily anything illegal or improper. Records exist in Hillary’s case - the Clintons simply don’t want to make those records available to the public/subject her records to scrutiny.
Comparing Obama’s lack of records to Clinton’s desire to maintain secrecy is clearly
case of apples and oranges. Different laws and standards apply to State Senators and Whiote House occupants for obvious reasons.
- french fried - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 2:55 pm:
Come on Rich, you know exactly where most of those documents are.
- Anonymous45 - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 2:58 pm:
FED UP was a little harsh–but let’s remember that this man ran against and outsed his mentor in his first political race–not very nice to
step on the the toes of the one that brought you to the dance…he is very, very ambitious, as is Hillary, but she is not a newbie like he is…his lack of experience is showing…
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 3:03 pm:
Wow, FF. Now comes the tinfoil hat as well.
- Bud Man - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 3:06 pm:
I agree with “It’s not an Issue.”
Its hard for Obama to have any pertinent documents as a State or US Senator because he hasn’t done anything of substance in either office.
The one thing that would be damaging, as someone pointed out, is all of the meetings he had with Rezko and others who are and will soon be facing indictment by the US Attorney.
- Poli-Sci Geek - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 3:07 pm:
Record keeping by legislators, or even the house clerks and senate secretaries is very limited. One of several perceptions held by people outside the “veterans’ parkway” is that Springfield is a smaller version of DC. Most meetings with legislators aren’t planned. They don’t involve notes beyond a possible fact sheet. Legislators’ offices are small, and often anything but posh, they have little filing space. The quality of their records depends a lot on the secretary they are assigned. The same people whining about the lack of record keeping would scream about the cost of archiving all of paper and email lawmakers get everyday. (most of it the same fact sheet or letter dropped by every office every day…)
- Ghost - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 3:11 pm:
Obama has not been refusing to turn over the records he has. Hillary has been refusing to turn over existing information. These are not even remotely related. Hillary is trying to keep people from looking at documents she has.
- amazing.... - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 3:22 pm:
….how many pundits find every potential issue for Obama ‘another non-issue’.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 3:27 pm:
Amazing, I would only say, “Garbage in, garbage out.”
- Anonymous - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 3:28 pm:
Rich, you should poll “ex” senators or reps. I can’t imagine most of them save anything, regardless of what they may have saved WHILE they were in the legislator. Why bother?
- VanillaMan - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 3:31 pm:
Geez people, Hillary has you chasing your tails, doesn’t she?
Hillary has a long record of record-issues. But by bringing this up, Obama hit a nerve. Hillary has issues regarding her perception of honesty, so Obama bringing up her missing records is a reminder of her “losing” her Rose Law Firm records and basically reminds voters about Memogate, and Hillary’s repeated need to cover her paper trails. We even saw Sandy Burger stuffing his shorts with secret Clinton documents. The entire issue hurts Clinton, right?
So, what did she do? She demands that Obama release his records. She is trying to get the press corp to equate her archived documents with Obama’s, which is ridiculous, isn’t it?
Obama and Edwards is correct to start reminding voters about Hillary’s document cleaning machines, shredders, subpoenas, and Burger-stuffings. Hillary is responding with a non-issue which a lot of you guys seem to be falling for!
Obama can release whatever he wants and demonstrate an open file cabinet to all and start again demanding that Hillary cough up the smoking guns in her documents.
Oh, and I just love the claim that Hillary makes that she “can’t” get her documents sealed, BY HER HUSBAND, opened for our benefit. Not really funny, but a hilarious lie, isn’t it?
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 3:32 pm:
I sent e-mails to two or three ex-members. No response yet. Lots of people are on vacation, I suppose. That, or they don’t want to get involved in this Obama stuff.
- Anonymous45 - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 3:59 pm:
no attacking the local candidate Rich!
- Kid Vegas - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 4:28 pm:
Can one day go by that Rep. Fritchey does not have something to say? What is it with that district and grandstanding politicians?
- Hellooo? - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 4:40 pm:
Fritchey REPLIED to a question FROM Rich. What’s wrong with that exactly?
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 4:41 pm:
I agree with “Hellooo?” Take your insightful comment to the other Fritchey post today. lol
- lake county democrat - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 4:54 pm:
“I don’t have - I don’t maintain - a file of eight years of work in the state Senate because I didn’t have the resources available to maintain those kinds of records”
What a load of bologna! A storage unit in Springfield and some metal shelving? Lawyers are supposed to keep client records for something like 5-7 years.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 4:56 pm:
==Lawyers are supposed to keep client records for something like 5-7 years.==
Different rules for different professions.
- Amy - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 5:20 pm:
What about his time at the law firm when he did
housing deals with Rezko? Don’t they keep track
of hours to bill to the client? Of course what also continues to be troubling about Obama is his
inability to show up to work. How many votes has
he missed lately? it’s way more than the Iran vote that he can’t stop talking about. and then there were the votes in the State Senate, on Safe Neighborhoods, on lending, on choice. it’s amazing how inexperience is held to be a good thing in the hands of Obama. if you don’t keep the evidence no one can find it….
- To Vegas - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 5:49 pm:
Most people complain that their reps don’t do enough, not sure that it’s valid to complain that one’s doing too much.
Like him or not, most of Fritchey’s stuff is pretty valid.
Maybe if more reps weighed in on more issues, the state would be better off.
- anon - Thursday, Nov 15, 07 @ 6:34 pm:
Concerning Obama’s records, ask yourself this…. Would an Ivy League Lawyer just leave his records for his replacement? I don’t think your “average Joe” will believe so. Seems a bit strange to me. He just lost his argument on Clinton. Too bad.
- Shadoobie - Friday, Nov 16, 07 @ 1:49 am:
I’m really late coming to this conversation, so no one will probably see it, not that it would hold any weight with anyone, anyway. This not keeping copies in the legislature has been going on for a while. In 1978 I worked for some reps on the Dem side, one of which was a lawyer, and we didn’t even keep copies of daily correspondence, much less anything else that I can recall. Having come from a law office where we kept copies of everything, I was a little shocked, but relieved I didn’t have deal with carbon paper. Or the copy machine which was way far away from where I sat.
- StoreItAll - Friday, Nov 16, 07 @ 5:20 am:
Has anyone bothered to jingle up the SOS State Archives or the Sec. of the Senate to see if they got any stuff that says B. Obama?