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“Sidewalk only” carry permits?

Wednesday, Feb 6, 2013

* Gov. Pat Quinn will introduce his concealed carry proposal today, which is combined with lots of gun control stuff. The NRA described the proposal to me yesterday as “Only on the sidewalk” - meaning that concealed carry permit holders wouldn’t be able to carry their loaded weapons just about anywhere except the sidewalk. That appears to be an overstatement, but not by a whole lot.

From the Sun-Times

In a broad-brush manner, Quinn and his administration are expected to offer a framework of what he wants included in court-required concealed-carry legislation, including making applicants undergo fingerprinting and banning concealed guns in malls, schools, polling places, hospitals, bars, libraries, sports stadiums and government buildings, according to one source familiar with the governor’s plan.

Quinn also will renew his push for bans on the sale and possession of military-style, semi-automatic guns and the ammunition that feeds them, according to a source familiar with the governor’s gun platform.

He will call for a ban on gun purchases over the Internet without background checks and a new requirement on gun owners to report lost or stolen weapons within 24 hours, the source told the Chicago Sun-Times.

The governor also is expected to push circuit clerks across the state to more thoroughly report to the state when someone is adjudicated as mentally ill. That information is used by the Illinois State Police in screening gun-permit applicants.

I’m told there is a FOID processing backlog right now of about 75,000 applications. They’re gonna need a bunch of money to cover all this concealed carry stuff.

Also, and I really hate to bring this up, but Quinn opposed fingerprinting applicants for the undocumented resident driver’s license permit program.

Needless to say, the NRA is gonna fight this proposal tooth and nail.

- Posted by Rich Miller        


129 Comments
  1. - Empty Chair - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:02 am:

    FOIA backlog or FOID backlog?


  2. - RNUG - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:15 am:

    This bill is DOA … (pun intended)


  3. - MontgomeryCo - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:21 am:

    FOID backlog, Empty Chair.


  4. - Sgtstu - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:22 am:

    No wonder the Governor did not want to talk to Todd about his (Quinn’s)bill. Does this guy have a clue about anything involving the people of this State ?


  5. - John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:23 am:

    >>>> Quinn also will renew his push for bans on the sale and possession of military-style, semi-automatic guns and the ammunition that feeds them, according to a source familiar with the governor’s gun platform.

    “and the ammunition that feeds them” - one would think that the governor’s gun platform is perhaps not familiar with guns. Maybe he shoots skeet with President Obama.


  6. - Sgt USMC - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:23 am:

    @Empty Pretty sure he meant FOID. The State police are supposed to process a FOID card app and return in under 90 days at the moment it is running more towards 6 months. Quinn is trying to say ya you can have a permit but you will be banned everywhere you are banned without the permit. I agree this should be a complete non-starter but Quinn seems to believe that he is some sort of magical dictator that can demand whatever he wants and everyone else will knuckle under.


  7. - Pete - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:23 am:

    RNUG - maybe so, but I applaud Quinn’s efforts here in attempting to stem the rising tide of guns & gun violence in Illinois.

    And there are probably a lot of other voters like me out there.


  8. - Slick Willy - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:25 am:

    More silly stuff from Quinn. It really shows that they have no clue about fireamrs or the current laws. For example, how would you ban ammunition from “military-style” semi-autos? There is no difference between the cartridges used for a bolt action, pump, single-shot or semi-auto rifles. Essentially, you would have to ban all rifle ammunition. It is also already a requirement that all guns purchased over the internet be transferred through a Federally licensed dealer, which requires a background check. The only thing in this that makes sense is the increased reporting of individuals adjudicated as mentally ill to the ISP.

    EC - It is FOID (Firearm Owner’s ID card) not FOIA.


  9. - M O'Malley - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:27 am:

    Ah, can’t wait to read the CapFax gun troll’s pontificate this one..well, actually I can.


  10. - John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:29 am:

    >>>>>> The State police are supposed to process a FOID card app and return in under 90 days

    30 days. After that you can request a hearing.


  11. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:31 am:

    Somebody should give Quinn the bad news that the 7th Circuit ruled against him.

    Giving bad news to those in power is tough, but somebody has to do it.

    When he gets that news, he’s going to have the head of whatever chump told him to push this version. That poor guy. Quinn doesn’t tolerate people making him look like he’s got the political instincts of a gnat.


  12. - RNUG - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:32 am:

    Pete,

    I could support the betetr Mental Health reporting and the solen gun reporting … but the rest of it is just stupidity, especially when you branch into the ammo ban and “assault weapons” ban, because from a functional matter there is zero difference between the “banned” and legal weapons & ammo.

    If Quinn wants to do mental health and robbery reporting as a seperate bill, I’ll support that.


  13. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:33 am:

    – banning concealed guns in malls, schools, polling places, hospitals, bars, libraries, sports stadiums and government buildings, according to one source familiar with the governor’s plan.–

    Is that list unreasonable? They would seem to pass the “sensitive areas” test.

    Anyone ever really felt the need to carry a gun to the library?


  14. - Cheryl44 - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:38 am:

    I’m anti-gun but this is a bad bill. Though I hope whatever does pass keeps the mental health checks and lost/stolen reports.


  15. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:41 am:

    But in all seriousness this is one of the reasons that some of us have no faith in Springfield.

    Guns are a major issue. The Gov. lost in court and now we need a responsible bill that has a chance of passing the legislature and will pass court scrutiny.

    We need leadership, but our Gov. sends us a piece of trash that has little chance of passing and no chance of passing court scrutiny.

    It is stupidity. It is a waste of time. It fails to take problems seriously. It is a fine example of everything wrong in Springfield.

    Somebody needs to let Quinn know that he’s not a backbencher anymore. He can’t make idiotic proposals just to get headlines. He is the Governor of the state. He needs to start acting like it.


  16. - Irish - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:42 am:

    All of this talk from our Governor again. He wants to maske all these restrictions and then but his administration isn’t keeping up with the restrictions already in place.
    I don’t have a problem with some of the things that are being talked about, but it sure would be refreshing to have our leaders make proposals from an informed position.

    “The governor also is expected to push circuit clerks across the state to more thoroughly report to the state when someone is adjudicated as mentally ill..” Yet Cook county’s reporting system is so antiquated they don’t know when a prisoner is supposed to remain in custody or released. Like Rich said the Gov. better be ready to throw a whole lot of money at this if he is really sincere.


  17. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:44 am:

    –“and the ammunition that feeds them” - one would think that the governor’s gun platform is perhaps not familiar with guns. Maybe he shoots skeet with President Obama.–

    I think that clunky sentence construction is on the Sun-Times.


  18. - Slick Willy - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:04 am:

    *** Anyone ever really felt the need to carry a gun to the library? ***

    No. But I have. :)


  19. - Rusty618 - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:05 am:

    I’m glad my FOID card is good through 2021!

    “Quinn opposed fingerprinting applicants for the undocumented resident driver’s license permit program”. I hate to let the cat out of the bag, but the fingerprints are used for more than just driver’s license ID. This is not good.


  20. - Leave a Light on George - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:08 am:

    =Anyone ever really felt the need to carry a gun to the library?=

    From the parking lot to the library and back? Heck yes.

    Inside the library not so much.


  21. - Skirmisher - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:12 am:

    The difference is that the undocumented driver’s license applicants are presumed Democrats while the conceal-carry applicants generally ain’t.


  22. - dupage dan - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:20 am:

    I don’t understand what is so unique about a library. I suppose the comment is supposed to highlight the contrast between a place where a gun would REALLY be needed (bar? pool hall? post office?) and a place where it would never be needed because no evil monster or criminal would ever bring one into such a place.

    But as long as it was unloaded, what would be the problem?

    I get that some places will evoke that kind of response. However, bad things can happen in nice places. The question is, what is reasonable and what isn’t. Quinn appears to believe he can steer this process in his direction. Good luck with that.

    Readings the proposal again I am struck by the concept. Will there be someone at the door of all these restricted places who will secure the weapons of all who wish to enter, to return them to the owner once he leaves? Or perhaps a person carrying the firearm could go back and forth to his car securing it and retrieving it as the case may be? Maybe they could put gun lockers outside all these establishments so that a person could lock up their gun like street shoes at a roller rink.


  23. - TCB - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:24 am:

    I just don’t understand this “you must report your gun stolen within 24 hours” law………there are lots of people who have weapons stashed in their closet or under the bed (not saying that’s responsible or smart, but its true) who could go weeks/months without noticing that one of these weapons has gone missing. If someone broke in & took these weapons & used them in a later crime, the law turns the burglary victim into a criminal for not reporting a crime he never knew occurred.

    I’m a gun owner & would rather see a law requiring that all guns be safely stored (involving some sort of locking mechanism) than something like the Governor is proposing.


  24. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:27 am:

    TCB,
    If you are such an irresponsible gun owner that you can’t even keep track of your weapons, you should not have weapons.


  25. - ArchPundit - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:27 am:

    ===– banning concealed guns in malls, schools, polling places, hospitals, bars, libraries, sports stadiums and government buildings, according to one source familiar with the governor’s plan.–

    This isn’t much different from Missouri which has conceal carry. I don’t think malls are banned by law, but all of them have no firearms signs at the doors.

    It’s the thing that most conceal carry advocates don’t seem to get–you can’t carry that often or to that many places. Private property rights trump your permit.

    ===Somebody should give Quinn the bad news that the 7th Circuit ruled against him.

    There’s also an appeal underway so I wouldn’t assume we ever get to the court mandating some sort of conceal carry. Posner doesn’t believe his own ruling–he was being provocative to the Supreme Court. First we go en banc and then to the Supremes. There is no hurry to create a conceal carry law assuming as most court cases have happen, the ruling is stayed for appeal.


  26. - ArchPundit - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:30 am:

    ===

    I just don’t understand this “you must report your gun stolen within 24 hours” law………there are lots of people who have weapons stashed in their closet or under the bed (not saying that’s responsible or smart, but its true) who could go weeks/months without noticing that one of these weapons has gone missing. If someone broke in & took these weapons & used them in a later crime, the law turns the burglary victim into a criminal for not reporting a crime he never knew occurred.

    If you look at Kotowski’s current bill, it mandates reports the second time it happens. IOW, if you have it lost/stolen once and don’t report–nothing really happens. The second time, the hammer comes down. The point being when multiple guns used in different crimes are traced to one individual, the individual can’t keep claiming it must have been stolen. It’s one of the strategies of straw purchasers. I think Kotowski’s bill is a reasonable way to approach that given you one free pass for the reasons you state.


  27. - chefjeff - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:31 am:

    So I cannot legally buy guns or ammo, or even possess the guns I now own because the State is “backed up” processing my FOID renewal? BTW they cashed the check promptly.


  28. - RetiredStateEmployee - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:31 am:

    “Nine years ago, we were attacked. 3,000 people died. In response, we started two long bloody wars and built a vast homeland security apparatus - all at a cost of trillions. Now consider this. During those same nine years, 270,000 Americans were killed by gunfire at home. Our response? We weakened our gun laws.”

    I don’t know what the answer is but I do know that this country acts emotionally. We are scared of terrorists, but we really don’t mind if we are shooting each other. Both sides of this argument seem to be too emotionally charged to come up with a common sense response. But as a country, we need to prioritize our expenditures where they will do the most good.


  29. - John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:34 am:

    >>>>>> So I cannot legally buy guns or ammo, or even possess the guns I now own because the State is “backed up” processing my FOID renewal?

    Call your state rep and state senator and ask them to intervene. Or call the office of the director of the state police and request a hearing on the matter.

    In either case, you will find out that your FOID app was processed yesterday, and will be winging its way to you shortly. I’m serious.


  30. - John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:37 am:

    >>>>> We are scared of terrorists, but we really don’t mind if we are shooting each other.

    I am scared of terrorists, but I am more afraid of being robbed or killed by the LK gang down the street. Give me CCW.


  31. - Anon - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:39 am:

    “He will call for a ban on gun purchases over the Internet without background checks”

    Never understood that. A gun purchase online requires that the shipper send it to an FFL (federal firearms licensee, so generally a gun shop) who must then abide by all local laws (so here, a FOID check, background check and waiting period).

    Can someone enlighten me?


  32. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:42 am:

    JJJS,

    The terrorists don’t scare me. Neither do the gangs.

    The things that scares the heck out of me is some guy from Effingham who thinks he needs a gun to walk down Michigan Ave. That person is more of a threat to me than terrorists or gangs.


  33. - Slick Willy - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:52 am:

    *** So I cannot legally buy guns or ammo, or even possess the guns I now own because the State is “backed up” processing my FOID renewal? BTW they cashed the check promptly. ***

    The ISP has been backed up so long that the Fuzz in my area are aware of it and essentially verify that you have applied. I tell people to make a photocopy of their application and keep it with them (while hunting or shooting). In your case, I would also keep a copy of the cancelled check.


  34. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:52 am:

    Really Arch? The 7th Circuit is going to issue a stay? That’s certainly big news. Any idea when the order is coming down?

    By the way, how often do circuit courts get reversed when heard en banc? How many cases go up to the S.Ct.? Does that happen a lot?

    Or is it exceedingly rare?


  35. - TCB - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:53 am:

    @Arch,

    Thanks. This proposal makes much more sense than Quinn’s proposal & seems to be a fair compromise.


  36. - Slick Willy - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:54 am:

    *** Can someone enlighten me? ***

    No enlightenment needed. You got it right. Chalk it up to our esteemed leaders showing their ignorance of firearms and the firearm laws that already exist.


  37. - Both Sides Now - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:56 am:

    I agree with “Leave a Light”. Anyone of you ever visited the library in downtown Springfield after dark? Heck, there are people who don’t want to visit it in the daytime!

    And do we want guns in schools? The knee jerk reaction is no but the proposed legislation is in response to a school shooting! What would have happened if someone in the school had a gun and used it on the intruder at Sandy Hook? For one example, see what happened less than a week ago: http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/man-shot-near-martin-luther-king-jr-high-school-in-detroit Would you rather have had the coach or students killed? For another interesting take on this subject, listen to the testimony of a Sandy Hook student’s father: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhXPlCjr0Vw

    Understandably, people are worried about their safety and the reality is that most Illinois residents do not believe our state and local governments have what is necessary to keep them safe. Our “leaders” are not leading. Those living in or near Chicago want to eliminate as many guns as they can while those in rural areas are sharply opposed, understanding they simply don’t have the police power to patrol and protect their jurisdiction.

    There are common sense measures that can be agreed upon if everyone is willing to move a little towards center. One would be increased controls on the mentally ill and funding for mental health. Every one of the shooting tragedies can be traced back to a mentally ill individual. Quinn would be better off proposing legislation to fix the root cause of the problem, rather than more sharply dividing our state on the issue of gun control.


  38. - Slick Willy - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:58 am:

    *** The things that scares the heck out of me is some guy from Effingham who thinks he needs a gun to walk down Michigan Ave. That person is more of a threat to me than terrorists or gangs. ***

    Stop with the downstate smears already. Someone needs to bump the needle on your record player…


  39. - Plutocrat03 - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:59 am:

    Seems to me that the “guy from Effingham” is more common than a terrorist, but far more rare than the gang members on Michigan Avenue.

    I don’t see the reason to fear ‘the guy from Effingham” unless there is something I am missing about the locale. What’s the problem outside a reflexive fear of weapons?


  40. - Kerfuffle - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:04 am:

    “The State police are supposed to process a FOID card app and return in under 90 days 30 days. After that you can request a hearing.”

    – So how long does it take to get a hearing? Another 90 days?


  41. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:05 am:

    Pluto,

    Most people from Effingham just sort of annoy me. They slowly walk five wide down the sidewalk and they don’t get that red follows yellow, so if the light is yellow and cars are stacked up on the other side you can’t clear the intersection, you really shouldn’t enter the intersection.

    The ones who I fear are not those people. I was a bit more specific. The ones from Effingham who think they need a gun to walk down Michigan Ave. scare me. Those are the guys who are going to mistake med students for either gang members or terrorists and open fire. People who are out of their element and are afraid are dangerous to me.

    If you are scared to come into Chicago, then don’t come into Chicago.


  42. - Sgt USMC - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:07 am:

    Wordslinger
    As for the places where Quinn wants to ban possession. The only ones i see Diferent than the Phelps bill is Malls and Hospitals and both have the option of whether or not they allow CCW. so who ever owns the Mall can make it as Gun Free or open as possible. in fact in the Phelps bill if the mall owner wants it open for carry the individual stores can make their store a gun free zone. (polling places are banned under federal law) What the difference is is that Phelps bill allows the libraries and schools to make their own choice as to whether CCW is allowed so if the Library and School want armed guards all they have to do is approve it. So with these facts i assume you are for the Phelps bill then as well???

    The real question which we won’t know until it is put into a proposal is what restrictions on storage. For those of you that don’t know the problem is this. In most states you can store your firearm in your car while you go into a gun free zone. Seems like common sense? However some states don’t include this protection in fact I believe FL didn’t include it at first. This made peopel who went to places like a mall and safely stored their firearm in their car into criminals. Now looking at the list you can see how excluding this makes it completely impractical to actual use your permit.

    Now 99% of what quinn’s proposing is unacceptable. Why he thinks when the court has demanded that a bill must be passed that he can tie on poison pills points to his incompetence. However the idea of forcing circuit courts to provide info on those adjucated Mentally ill is a good idea and could probably stand on it’s own. As for the rest sorry Pat pull up HB 997 that is your bill you will have to deal with it.

    As for the State Police being broke and overworked seems like a good idea to let county sheriffs handle the permitting process. Of course i know Cook County will drag their feet as much as possible but we will probably have to take them back top court anyway.


  43. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:07 am:

    “Stop with the downstate smears already. Someone needs to bump the needle on your record player.”

    Stop with the thin skin, or just read the thread. JJJS claims that gangs are such a problem that he needs a gun. Think JJJS lives is Englewood? Or it is more likely that JJJS lives downstate?


  44. - ArchPundit - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:09 am:

    ====Really Arch? The 7th Circuit is going to issue a stay? That’s certainly big news. Any idea when the order is coming down?

    ===By the way, how often do circuit courts get reversed when heard en banc? How many cases go up to the S.Ct.? Does that happen a lot?

    ===Or is it exceedingly rare?

    Not very rare when there are conflicts between circuits and Posner wrote the opinion to specifically criticize Scalia’s position. Posner was tweaking the Supreme Court and already knew there was another decision in another circuit with a different ruling. Add to it, Scalia specifically rejecting the logic, ” “a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues.”

    Posner is correct that Scalia is inconsistent, but it’s pretty clear he’s maximized this ruling for review by the Supreme Court, knowing Posner to tweak Scalia for being inconsistent.


  45. - ChicagoDem - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:09 am:

    Skeeter…what Michigan Ave. are you talking about, the one from 20-30 years ago? Robberies, assults, and shootings are taking place on the Ave. more often than they are being reported.


  46. - Sgt USMC - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:14 am:

    Skeeter
    Really you are going to rip people from Effingham while making the assumption that someone will just take off shooting because someone looks different. Please sir show me where that has happened? Where?? You see it may be hard for you to understand that we really aren’t that dumb. It is your unreasonable fear that is scaring you. BTW correct me if i am wrong but wasn’t the girl killed in Chicago whose funeral Quinn is going to shot within a mile from Obama’s Chicago Mansion??? Weren’t several tourists beaten and robbed along the beach just off of Michigan avenue? Seems like Michigan ave isn’t the utopia you portray.


  47. - Kerfuffle - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:15 am:

    Dupage Dau - “I don’t understand what is so unique about a library.”

    Perhaps guns are just too noisy for libraries. Maybe the would be okay if they had silencers.


  48. - Small Town Liberal - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:23 am:

    - within a mile from Obama’s Chicago Mansion? -

    You ever been around Hyde Park? Lots of shady territory within a mile of there.

    Also, I believe the young lady was shot on Lakeshore Drive, nowhere near where tourists walk along Michigan Ave.

    Now this has nothing to do with anything, but if you’re going to call people unreasonable, might not want to use arguments that don’t really make sense.

    And for the record, Michigan Ave is generally very safe, the real gun violence occurs where the gangs are warring over drugslinging turf. I don’t care one way or the other about concealed carry, but the only thing that’s going to significantly make Chicago safer will be a change in the way we regulate drugs.


  49. - Cincinnatus - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:29 am:

    What is the over/under time on when we bust through 100 comments?


  50. - Fan - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:34 am:

    Skeeter, what was the gun murder rate in Effingham? Any year. What was it in Chicago? And how do they relate to the per 100,000 citizens? Let’s see some numbers please.


  51. - Rod - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:39 am:

    I am unclear whether or not M O’Malley would qualify me as a gun troll since I do comment on other issues, be that as it may be I will proceed to opine, not pontificate, on the outline of a concealed carry law that Quinn is proposing. As others have correctly stated the right to concealed carry can be restricted, the question then is do such restrictions rise to the level of having a concealed carry gun useless because one can carry in only a very limited situation.

    Banning concealed guns in schools, and government buildings is not uncommon. These are reasonable restrictions but how they are applied in actual language of the law is somewhat critical. In relation to government buildings if the state or local governmental unit has notified the person not to enter or remain in the building while carrying a firearm or a type of firearm it is totally legal and is more than appropriate.

    However, in no case should this rule be allowed to prohibit a lawful concealed carry permitted individual from having a firearm in a vehicle driven or parked in a parking facility that is associated with a government building.

    Schools K-12 and the property around schools have full bans in many states including Wisconsin. Colleges and Universities have different rules in different states, most of these rules have been upheld.

    Many of the other types of bans the Governor is discussing should legally be at the determination of the property owner and when they are prohibiting concealed carry signage should be posted. I have seen nothing yet on a training requirement, I doubt it could be higher than what Chicago currently requires. I personally have no objection to the fingerprinting requirement, we have to do this currently in Chicago in order to receive a Chicago Firearms Permit (CFP) but the process is laborious and must be done in person at 3510 S. Michigan (Chicago Police Department HQ).

    It is my opinion that the Illinois State Rifle Association should attempt to correct the faults in any concealed carry bill the Governor proposes by amending the bill, not out-right opposition. The Association should stop pushing Representative Brandon Phelps bill HB997 if the Governor is going to propose another bill. This fight is better done on the level of amendments rather than opposing bills.


  52. - Todd - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:43 am:

    The state police are suppose to process FOID cards in 30 days.

    Illinois already has a mandatory storage law.

    Between 2000 and 2010 there were 16,000 cases filed in the 7th circuit. During that same time only 33 en banc reviews were granted.


  53. - Slick Willy - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:49 am:

    *** It is my opinion that the Illinois State Rifle Association should attempt to correct the faults in any concealed carry bill the Governor proposes by amending the bill, not out-right opposition. The Association should stop pushing Representative Brandon Phelps bill HB997 if the Governor is going to propose another bill. This fight is better done on the level of amendments rather than opposing bills. ***

    I am all for reason and cooperation, but why not expect the same from Quinn? Todd mentioned that they were willing to sit down and talk to Quinn about Phelps’ bill and was told to pound sand. No point in trying to be cooperative when you are the only one trying.


  54. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:58 am:

    –So with these facts i assume you are for the Phelps bill then as well???–

    Since there are three question marks, I will answer no, no and no.

    But within the context of the debate toward a possible law, Quinn’s exceptions seem reasonable within the “sensitive areas” exceptions as outlined by Justice Scalia.

    Personally, I don’t believe in “sensitive areas.” If concealed-carry is dangerous anywhere, it’s dangerous everywhere.

    And DD, you never got the irony of my post on gun shows. You seem more confused every time you trot it out.


  55. - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 12:10 pm:

    Rod-
    Read HB 0997… it is almost exactly what quins wants from a carry bill. In the actual suntimes article on of commentators went through it all.

    The difference is quinn wants one gigantic bill that has CCW, assault weapons ban, mental health provisions for court adjudication, etc etc. There is a CCW bill with what he is talking about SPONSORED by the NRA.. but none of the anti-gunners will even ADMIT that the bill stops CCW in court houses, schools, etc. and allows private property owners (LIKE MALLS!) to put no-CCW signs up to regulate them the way the private property owner deems fit.

    This is 90% of the problem with this debate. people like quinn and some commentators here stating all the things they want in a CCW bill, decrying the NRA backed 0997 just because it is NRA backed when it gives them 95% of the crap on the CCW wish list!!!!!


  56. - Yellow Dog Democrat - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 12:17 pm:

    Until some legal scholar argues otherwise, I’m sticking by my original BIG, HAIRY point.

    If the NRA doesn’t come to the table to pass bipartisan conceal-carry, then the issue will be governed by Home Rule by default. The Speaker has in fact declared that Home Rule is applicable.

    That means that just like the smoking ban, Chicago and Cook County will pass New York-style gun safety measures, and I’m betting that they will be followed in short order by a number of suburban communities as well as downstate cities.


  57. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 12:28 pm:

    No Yellow Dog, it will not.

    It will be resolved by the 7th Circuit who will legislate.

    You can do a reasonable compromise now, or let the court do the job.


  58. - wizard - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 12:29 pm:

    “the speaker has….applicable” so let it be written, let it be done. the speaker is infallable. lol


  59. - Todd - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 12:29 pm:

    YDD

    The bill will pass with bi-partisian support and supermajorities

    It will include preemption, shall isse, statewide. No carve out for chicago or cook county. This week has just improvedmy outlook and where things are headed


  60. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 12:33 pm:

    –I just don’t understand this “you must report your gun stolen within 24 hours” law………there are lots of people who have weapons stashed in their closet or under the bed (not saying that’s responsible or smart, but its true) who could go weeks/months without noticing that one of these weapons has gone missing–

    C’mon, man. You have property worth thousands of dollars missing and you don’t notice?

    It’s to address straw buyers, the folks who, for some reason, don’t report to their insurance company or authorities that they’ve been robbed of very valuable property.

    Put it this way: if some pharmacy had a boatload of oxy “stolen” and didn’t report it, would you suspect they might be up to no good?


  61. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 12:42 pm:

    Skeeter, I’m inclined to agree with Arch.

    Did you not find Posner’s opinion provocative, ie, a shot at his U of C arch-nemesis, Scalia?

    If it ends up being appealed to the Supremes, do you think Scalia is going to let Posner have the last word?


  62. - Slick Willy - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 12:47 pm:

    *** Put it this way: if some pharmacy had a boatload of oxy “stolen” and didn’t report it, would you suspect they might be up to no good? ***

    Agreed. But what if the cops come to the same pharmacy and say that they caught these guys during a traffic stop with a bunch of oxy and the pharmacy did not notice that the box was stolen from the back store room? I get your point, but there has to be some lattitude in the law to keep the requirement from turning honest citizens into criminals.


  63. - titan - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 12:48 pm:

    @Yellow Dog Democrat - isn’t Chicago’s Home Rule (effective) gun ban what the 7th Circuit already ruled on, and overturned?


  64. - Sgt USMC - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 12:52 pm:

    @ small town liberal

    No i know little about Hyde park i avoid Chicago and prefer safer places like STL and Indianapolis. As for the muggings i am referring to the ones committed this summer on tourists. Remember the mobs of teens running around playing the knock out game? Which is why even though i LOVE the museum of science and industry as well as Shedds i will not risk my safety and my childs to go there.

    Now i am curious please explain to me why it is only bipartisan if the NRA folds and tries to amend Quinn’s poison pill. Seems a little lopsided as well as terrible poker.

    Can some one answer a question please? Quinn will probably veto anything that doesn’t ban the guns he doesn’t like etc. can his veto be dealt with at the same time or does the legislature have to wait for the veto session? I am assuming not but i am not sure.

    @wordslinger
    You are right if i know my guns have been taken i will be calling the police right away. The problem comes down to when that time clock starts. I don’t check every firearm in my safe daily. I work lot’s of hours during the week. if someone managed to get into my house and took nothing but the safe on a Monday and left no sign of break in it wouldn’t be hard for me not to realize it until the next weekend. Now i agree the proposal of the first time no penalty is more reasonable. I am all for cracking down hard on straw purchasers. however restraining overzealous prosecuters is equally important.


  65. - TCB - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 12:53 pm:

    @Word,

    If you think the handgun in my uncle’s night stand or the rusty double barrel propped up in the corner of his closet are worth “thousands of dollars” I’m sure he wouldn’t mind if I gave you his phone number & arranged for you two to meet.

    As I mentioned, many people have guns placed around the house in certain places (and I’m on record as saying this isn’t responsible or smart) for various reasons often don’t take inventory of these guns daily….I mean after all, Quinn is requiring that we report these within 24 hours of the theft. I never said I couldn’t get behind some form of this, but the 24 hour window is a little short IMO.


  66. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:03 pm:

    Sgt,
    You were were a U.S. Marine and you are too afraid to go to the Museum of Science and Industry? Or the Shedd?

    Unbelievable.


  67. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:03 pm:

    –No i know little about Hyde park i avoid Chicago and prefer safer places like STL and Indianapolis–

    By what measure is St. Louis safer than Chicago? And I’d advise to stay out of certain neighborhoods in Indy, as well.

    I don’t think any of that has to do with gun laws, but control of the illegal drug trade.

    Right now, there’s a horrific spike in gun homicides in Chicago largely attributed to an internal Gangster Disciples war over drug territory.

    A similar spike occurred in the 90s with the introduction of crack as gangs fought for market share over this new product.

    And, of course, the most murderous era in the city’s history was the 1920s, when infant organized crime gangs fought for control of the illegal booze business.


  68. - Judgment Day - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:04 pm:

    If PQ really wants to cover all the bases in one bill, then he needs to start requiring all owners of axes, hatchets, hammers, and sledgehammers to hold FOID cards. And have background checks.

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/18034282-418/witness-woman-allegedly-pummeled-ex-husband-with-a-sledge-hammer.html


  69. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:05 pm:

    For what it worth — I routinely walk around Shedd and the Planetarium with four year olds. I’m not as tough as some Marines, but I have some basic comment sense and I don’t allow myself to be terrified by some headlines.

    I’ve never had the slightest problem.


  70. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:06 pm:

    TCB,
    If you don’t know if somebody got into that night stand or the closet, you should not have a weapon.

    We need to limit gun ownership to people who are responsible.


  71. - ArchPundit - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:12 pm:

    ===–No i know little about Hyde park i avoid Chicago and prefer safer places like STL and Indianapolis.

    ===By what measure is St. Louis safer than Chicago? And I’d advise to stay out of certain neighborhoods in Indy, as well.

    It’s not.

    Saint Louis is experiencing a similar issue with what seems to be a war over drug territory. However, the worst of it is around College Hill Neighborhood which I seriously doubt many tourists have been to in decades. It’s on 70, but there are no attractions and the neighborhood is on tough times. I used to volunteer at a school up there actually.

    Saint Louis, like Chicago, is perfectly safe to visit and enjoy yourself. You do have to be careful about going into the wrong neighborhood, but that’s true of any large city. You are more likely to be a target of petty crime like smashed windows or crap like that than murder.

    That is, unless you are engaged in buying narcotics on the street. Then it’s pretty dang dangerous.


  72. - ArchPundit - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:14 pm:

    ===No i know little about Hyde park i avoid Chicago and prefer safer places like STL and Indianapolis. As for the muggings i am referring to the ones committed this summer on tourists. Remember the mobs of teens running around playing the knock out game? Which is why even though i LOVE the museum of science and industry as well as Shedds i will not risk my safety and my childs to go there.

    Better stay out of Saint Louis–we’ve had a few rounds of the knock out game and had a young woman killed in a carjacking in the West End (near Forest Park and the museums and zoo).

    Though, if you are rational, you are more likely to be hurt or killed getting there in your car.


  73. - Sgt USMC - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:15 pm:

    @Skeeter when i was kicking doors in Iraq my children were not there. I also was not required to be unarmed and a victim. You see unless you have a transporter to take me directly from my house to the front door of Shedds it involves traveling to and from inside the city of Chicago. Again since i do not have an armored car to transport my family seems wise to avoid it. That isn’t fear that is Prudence. Furthermore i will not spend one dime of my well earned salary in a city that deprives me of the right to defend myself and my family.
    @wordslinger
    Yes hate to break it to you but STL is much safer than Chicago. We could get into the details but i will say this STL had 113 homicides for the year Chicago 512+. BTW Chicago had more homicides than U.S. Deaths in Afghanistan last year. i agree this is largely a gang thing that doesn’t mean it is prudent to put my children in harms way. You see when i travel in STL and Indy i have the right to protect myself and my family.


  74. - ArchPundit - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:17 pm:

    Saint Louis has about 325,000 people in it compared to just under 3 million for Chicago.


  75. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:20 pm:

    Sgt.,
    I’m not following. You are claiming that LSD is too dangerous for a United States Marine? That you can’t walk with your kids from the parking lot near the Shedd and into the museum?

    This skinny lawyer is a heck of a lot tougher than a United States Marine. Who would have guessed?


  76. - TCB - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:20 pm:

    @Skeeter,

    Gun ownership is not a privilege like driving or owning a vehicle, it is a right just as voting is. Should we be able to criminally prosecute someone who irresponsibly casts a vote?

    Your definition of responsible might be different……If I, a single man, have a gun inside the closet of my locked home you consider that irresponsible? Just how many locks must I put between a thief & my gun before I am storing it responsibly?


  77. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:23 pm:

    I go back to my prior statement. If you think you need a gun to come into the areas that most tourists visit, you are a bigger danger to me than most gang members.

    I can predict how the gang members will behave. Most are absolutely harmless to me. But the guy from downstate with a gun who is too terrified to walk in the parking area near the Shedd in the middle of the afternoon? That’s the guy who is unpredictable and dangerous.


  78. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:25 pm:

    TCB,
    If you carelessly cause your vote to be stolen, and somebody uses it to kill a gang rival, you should be prosecuted.
    I’m not aware of that ever happening, but if so, I would agree with you.
    You may want to fine tune that analogy a bit.


  79. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:26 pm:

    “I, a single man, have a gun inside the closet of my locked home you consider that irresponsible?”

    Only if you don’t realize for a year that somebody broke in and stole it. In which case, you are pretty irresponsible.


  80. - TCB - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:34 pm:

    =If you carelessly cause your vote to be stolen, and somebody uses it to kill a gang rival, you should be prosecuted.
    I’m not aware of that ever happening, but if so, I would agree with you.
    You may want to fine tune that analogy a bit. =

    Fair enough……but I think you know I was getting at. Owning a gun is a right & should be prohibited for criminals & the insane, and little else.

    =Only if you don’t realize for a year that somebody broke in and stole it. In which case, you are pretty irresponsible.=

    What if I don’t realize for a couple of days? or a week?

    I was citing PQ’s 24-hour rule & have said that I’m not totally against a similar rule, but 24 hours is too short of a window.


  81. - Arthur Andersen - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:36 pm:

    Skeeter, don’t go profiling us downstaters. Many of us are perfectly sane and do not feel the need to pack heat whenever we leave the two-one-seven.
    Quite frankly, and I am not trying to start anything here, there are parts of Springfield and my hometown Chambana that scare me more than anywhere I need to go in Chicago or St.
    Louis.


  82. - ArchPundit - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:41 pm:

    ==I was citing PQ’s 24-hour rule & have said that I’m not totally against a similar rule, but 24 hours is too short of a window.

    I don’t know if we have seen his legislative language, but my guess is that it is within 24 hours of discovering the lost/stolen firearm. I’m not sure that’s perfect either–do you look for it for a couple days before calling the police?

    Then again it’s PQ so the answer may change by the minute. The more I have thought about it, I like the second instance law. Once is a mistake–two or more and something more is going on.


  83. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:41 pm:

    AA,

    You are right, but I thought I had made that clear.

    The guy from Effingham may be a bit of annoyance walking slowly down the street, but so is the guy from the Evanston. I’ve chosen to live in a certain area and that’s part of the deal.

    However, the guy from Effingham who thinks he needs a gun to walk slowly down the sidewalk is a different thing completely. That guy is a real threat. The Sgt who posted above who is terrified to take his kids to the Shedd? The place I’ve routinely taken my small children whenever I can get a day off work? “Sgt” scares me. I don’t want him near my area.


  84. - Arthur Andersen - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:43 pm:

    Same topic, different subject. Quinn should put some money where his big mouth is and restore some of the huge budget cuts at the Illinois State Police enacted by himself and his running mate, 40892-424.
    Saying we have a low amount of State workers per capita may be good in some respects, but when that count includes State troopers, forensic scientists, and even the people who process FOID cards, the metric may be shortsighted.


  85. - Arthur Andersen - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 1:46 pm:

    Skeeter, I kid, I kid. I agree with you and should have snarked more clearly.


  86. - Esquire - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 2:10 pm:

    This is doubly embarrassing, but Quinn is used to be a public embarrassment. Presumably, Quinn is a licensed attorney and he attended schools in Illinois which require students to pass an examination on the US and Illinois constitutions.
    Perhaps, Quinn was absent on every occasion when the Bill of Rights was being discussed.

    Let’s accept that this all political grandstanding, once again. How much more money can the state waste on restricting the lawful rights of gun owners? It seems as if the powers that be have come out on the losing side of almost every case for close to twenty years if one includes those cases that were ultimately reversed on appeal.


  87. - Small Town Liberal - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 2:13 pm:

    - You see unless you have a transporter to take me directly from my house to the front door of Shedds it involves traveling to and from inside the city of Chicago. Again since i do not have an armored car to transport my family seems wise to avoid it. -

    Man, what you choose to do with your family is none of my business, but wow.

    My niece and nephew really enjoyed the Shedd, even the long walk because it’s tough to find parking on weekends. Can’t wait to take them again.


  88. - Sgt USMC - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 2:24 pm:

    Liberal
    Refer to previous post if you instead of Skeeter wan to give me a clear site to tell me where to go and not to go in Chicago. i will reconsider. now considering until today i thought the Hyde Park Area was a safe area, since our president used to live there. I will stick to areas where a wrong turn doesn’t put me in the middle of a gang war. For that matter i have just went to the Newport aquarium in Cincinatti last year my kids didn’t miss a thing.


  89. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 2:26 pm:

    –You see unless you have a transporter to take me directly from my house to the front door of Shedds it involves traveling to and from inside the city of Chicago. Again since i do not have an armored car to transport my family seems wise to avoid it. That isn’t fear that is Prudence–

    Dude, by definition, that’s fear.

    How is it even possible that you are that scared?


  90. - John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 2:28 pm:

    >>>>> JJJS claims that gangs are such a problem that he needs a gun. Think JJJS lives is Englewood? Or it is more likely that JJJS lives downstate?

    JJJS used to live downstate, but knows the city, knows Marquette Pk, Brighton Pk, Beverly, MoPo, Mt Greenwood, Roscoe Village, Belmont-Cragin, Englewood, Rodgers Park & Clearing.

    JJJS has distant kin, the Jingleheimer-Schwartzes who live in Roseland.

    JJJS does not want trouble, and long ago moved to a quiet little corner of DuPage Co where there are no sidewalks or streetlights. Come lately the multi-family housing in a nearby burb with LK’s on the corner, occasional gunfire at night, property crime, and one high-profile armed-robbery turned murder of a neighbor out walking his dog before his 3rd-shift job.


  91. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 2:38 pm:

    Sgt, I’ve given you “heck” about your comments, but I appreciate that last one.

    Realistically, the real threat you face is pick pockets. Walking anywhere, and particularly on Michigan Ave., that can be an issue. You need to be aware. Same thing goes for dining out. People (no matter where they are from) will at times leave phones on the table or purses on the back of chairs. That’s a bad idea.

    During the day (whenever the Shedd is open) the area around it, including the walkways below near the lake, and the street connecting the Shedd to the Planetarium, are very safe. Is it possible that something might happen? Maybe, but I’ve never been in a situation there when I’ve felt concerned. I’ve been lucky to work where I can take days off so I’ve spent a lot of time there now that my kids are young. It just never has been a problem.

    With regard to the Museum of Science and Industry, there is underground parking. To me, it appears completely safe. I’ve never seen anybody that appears shady around the MSI garage. Would I park a few blocks away to get there? Possibly, but I wouldn’t recommend it.

    LSD and the expressways, unless you are actually a drug dealer fleeing other drug dealers, are perfectly safe when it comes to crime.

    The only issue is gassing up. For that, I would agree that a gun in the car would be a decent idea. It might not be necessary but a gun when gassing up would be reasonable.

    Michigan Ave.? Again, I walk down Michigan Ave. literally every day. I am aware of some real crime, but it extremely rare. Pickpockets are a threat. Getting hit over the head? No.

    Walking to Navy Pier from Michigan Ave. is also safe. Head down Ohio Street and follow the path.

    One last note — for museums, if you go twice a year, you are better of paying for a membership. Worth it.

    No matter where you go, you need to be alert, but that’s the extent of it. You don’t need a gun for most of the tourist areas. You just need to keep your head up.


  92. - Sgt USMC - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 2:46 pm:

    @ word, Skeeter, SMTL

    Let me try to explain this another way. Am i correct in assuming you would not take your children to the areas that these crimes are committed or as some have said this drug war is raging? Now you know where the areas are that the crimes are committed and where you should not go. I do not. Are there areas you would avoid at all costs? You know where they are. I do not. So when i decide to take my children anywhere their safety has to be a concern. Since i do not have the proper Intel to determine where to avoid it is prudent to not take my children where they may be in danger even if that danger is because their Dad took a wrong turn. I have been to Chicago and to be honest you can keep your city. I prefer a quieter life with more freedom.


  93. - Sgt USMC - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 2:51 pm:

    @Skeeter Thank you sir for trying to keep an open mind. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.

    Please except a question from a legal neophyte. If Quinn veto’s a bill can the veto be brought up for a vote immediately or must it wait for the “veto” session? i would assume it doesn’t but the way this state does business seems to defy logic.


  94. - Esquire - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 2:53 pm:

    The last time that I visited the Museum of Science and Industry, I saw a youngster urinating outside of the building because it was too much effort to go to the restroom inside of the museum’s entrance.

    I used to routinely visit the South Shore Country Club. The Chicago Park District now operates the golf course. There were always numerous off duty cops on the premises, so I never felt concerned for my safety. The mounted police unit stables its horses at the former country club, so these officers often spent their off duty hours caring for their horses. The late John Stroger used to golf there too.


  95. - Rod - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 2:57 pm:

    At this point it is unclear whether the Governor plans on proposing one massive bill that will address concealed carry, so called assault rifle bans, and clips holding over ten bullets. If he does this it would probably not be a smart move, he would be better off floating issue by issue bills.

    The Illinois State Rifle Association would in the situation of an all encompassing bill certainly be correct to oppose it. But on a stand alone bill for concealed carry amending what Quinn proposes would be more simple than a counter bill like HB997 even if it contains many of the elements Quinn might want.

    Reasonable amendments to a Quinn backed concealed carry bill would be difficult to stop and impossible for Quinn to veto. The object here is not to have a fight, but rather to win. Just for the record I am a member of the ISRA, but I don’t agree with every position they take. I don’t plan on carrying a gun on me at all times once concealed carry becomes law even though I do live in Chicago. I for example would trade away high capacity magazines to prevent the so called AR ban, even though I do not own an AR. All of this stuff I hear about the NRA/ISRA not yeilding on any aspect of 2nd amendment rights is just nonsense.

    The NRA has compromised in the past and it will do so in the future. Following Sandy Hook we are faced with a full scale attempt to significantly reduce the interpreted scope of the 2nd amendment by gun control advocates. This push back is to be expected. Like any other right the parameters are elastic and that is part of the reality of living in a democratic society. Beat back what can be beaten back and move ahead.


  96. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 2:59 pm:

    Sgt.,

    Unless you get out and walk around, and as long as you stay on major streets, you are not in much danger anywhere. I’ve driven down 95th Street and Roosevelt and Chicago Ave. through the west side. Was I thrilled with it? No, but during daylight hours and as long as I didn’t pull up too close to the car in front at stoplights (leaving me a way out)I was never in a significant amount of real danger.

    The problem is getting out and wandering in those area. But why would you?

    If you come to Chicago, you would do so to see downtown, Michigan Ave., Lincoln Park Zoo, the Museum Campus, or MSI.

    Unless you are looking for ethnic food, there is not much of a reason to venture beyond that.

    Why would you go? Because my kids go to the Shedd and see black tip reef sharks. They go to the Field Museum and see Sue and a pretty incredible exhibit on dinosaurs. They go to MSI and learn the science that makes a plane take flight.

    I go because my kids find it fascinating and the look on their faces is priceless. I’ve given up a lot of billable hours to enjoy it. It is far more valuable to me than the income I could have made sitting in my office.

    They are your kids though. If your irrational fear is going to prevent them from having those same experiences, that is something you will have to answer to yourself.

    But either way, have the guts to admit that it not about “freedom.” It is about irrational fear. Be honest with yourself.


  97. - How Ironic - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 3:14 pm:

    @ Skeeter,

    Your comment of “It is about irrational fear. Be honest with yourself.” made me laugh as you use it to highlight the folly of Sgt.

    And yet, you are about beside yourself thinking that someone from Effingham is going to come to Chicago, immediatly spy a med student, confuse them with a gang-banger, and in a fit of misguided civic duty proceed to have a shootout on Michigan avenue.

    Who’s got the ‘irrational’ fear again???


  98. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 3:16 pm:

    How Ironic,
    Go back, read the thread, and then comment.


  99. - ArchPundit - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 3:50 pm:

    ===Now you know where the areas are that the crimes are committed and where you should not go. I do not. Are there areas you would avoid at all costs? You know where they are. I do not.

    “Roll ‘Em Up!” We should start calling you Clark (and that is meant in good humor if it isn’t clear)


  100. - Sgt USMC - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 3:54 pm:

    Skeeter

    let me make it clear i am all about experiences for my kids and have also sacrificed many billable hours. I like visiting interesting places heck we went to D.C. the year before last and i consider it much more dangerous than Chicago. However seeing the Declaration and Constitution were worth the risk. (fyi we went straight in and straight out back in VA by 3p.m.) Since you are being accomodating as for Chicago travel. Where are safer hotels for less than $150? (my kids don’t need the Park Hyatt)
    As for the Fear part i do not live here in the middle of no where because i am afraid either of a rational or irrational fear. I live down here because i find the freedom of being able to grow my own beef, have a 4 acre yard, and have a bonfire with my friends and co-workers till 3 in the morning to be well worth the cost of fuel to go visit the sites whether in Chicago or Stl or anywhere else. I like that my kids do not hear sirens, neighbors fighting, and have never and i pray never hear a shot fired in anger. You see at different times in my life i have lived in L.A., Houston, and Honolulu. I have seen the big city life. I prefer the country. As they say different strokes.

    Though we were far afield please allow me to explain something on the storage part. Yes the weapons i keep for home protection are monitored regularly. However we gun guys often keep guns that aren’t used very often for instance i keep a deer shotgun and a goose shotgun. Neither see a lot of attention when not in season. They are kept inside a locked Safe inside a locked room. If one of them were to go missing without some other more obvious sign (such as door kicked in etc.) i would not know they were missing probably until a few months before the next season.
    This is why the 24 hr notice is problematic for me. I would love to see a mandatory 20 yr sentence for Straw Buyers. However when you say 24 hrs there is a judgement call to be made by the prosecuter as for whether or not you knew it was missing. Now i don’t know about you but on days when i have a major project wrapping up it is all i can do to salvage a half hour to spend with my kids before they go to bed.


  101. - Sgt USMC - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 4:06 pm:

    @Rod
    Do you play poker sir? Why would you fold a winning hand? Accepting Quinn’s premise and amending it surrenders the winning hand ISRA and NRA hold. Right now the NRA and ISRA get CCW with no give away to Quinn or Kotowski. Why? If Quinn’s ideas have backing he can bring those up in seperate bills. It seems to me that the only proposal that should be left in any CCW bill is the one that directly links to it the Clerk reporting provisions. To be honest with you i didn’t know that is a problem addressing that with the carry bill makes sense in order to prevent those people from getting a permit.


  102. - Small Town Liberal - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 4:12 pm:

    - Right now the NRA and ISRA get CCW with no give away to Quinn or Kotowski. -

    Legislators are strange folk, and Todd V does know them better than most, but they still have the say. If Todd is right, then you’re also right, but it’s difficult for me to believe there won’t be any giveaways.


  103. - TwoFeetThick - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 4:23 pm:

    Sgt

    Regarding your procedural question if Quinn were to veto the bill, the short answer is no on both counts. The bill can’t immediately be brought up for an override vote, but it also doesn’t have to wait until Veto Session, though that is the likely time frame.

    When the GA passes a bill, it has up to 30 days to send that bill to the governor. Once the governor gets a bill, he has 60 days to act on it. If he vetoes it, it goes back to the chamber where it started. The GA then has 15 days (I think) to act to override the veto. The 15-day clock starts when the governor’s action is read into the record so, as was repeatedly done back in the Blago days, this time period can in reality stretch longer than 15 days. Once the clock is ticking, if 15 days pass without the GA acting, the bill dies.

    So, the GA does not have to wait until Veto Session to act on a vetoed bill, but the days allowed for each part of the process means that that is likely the earliest time for such action to take place.


  104. - How Ironic - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 4:24 pm:

    @ Skeeter

    “The ones from Effingham who think they need a gun to walk down Michigan Ave. scare me. Those are the guys who are going to mistake med students for either gang members or terrorists and open fire.”

    You seem to be both pretty clear in your comment, and irrational at the same time. Try to remember what you actually posted, then comment again.


  105. - Sgt USMC - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 4:24 pm:

    @Small
    My point to Rod was this. By the ruling of the 7th once their stay is out of effect june 2013 there is no ban on carrying firearms. I am not arguing that politicians will not attempt to get give aways. However the ISRA and NRA if no bill is passed get CCW as it stands now. Now we can argue that hpotheticaly the 7th will rule en bloc and overturn it but until they do the cards are in the ISRA and NRA favor. As you know it is easier to prevent a bill than it is to pass a bill.

    For that matter the give aways Quinn is seeking are beyond the scope of the bill. I think in my humble opinion that if Quinn was doing his job he would sit down with Phelps and Todd V. and bring up his concerns to negotiate. Instead he is going to try and ram something that has almost zero chance of passing through based i guess on his perceived super pursuasion power. I am not fond of the idea of Constitutional Carry in this state at this time it would be nice if Quinn would swallow his ego and actually try to work with people that disagree with him.


  106. - Todd - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 4:25 pm:

    STL - the vote count looks better everyday. I think that when the bill hits the floor, some people are going to be surprised


  107. - Sgt USMC - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 4:27 pm:

    @ Two Feet
    Thanks! While i passed my Gov test in High school with flying colors after Blago and now Quinn il gov’t seems to be making up new rules every year.


  108. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 4:28 pm:

    How Ironic,

    I stand by that statement.

    If you think you need a gun to walk down Michigan Ave., then you are a danger to me.

    In reality, you don’t need a gun to walk down Michigan Ave.

    If you think so, then you are dealing with irrational fear and people dealing with irrational fear act in an irrational manner.


  109. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 4:32 pm:

    ==STL - the vote count looks better everyday. I think that when the bill hits the floor, some people are going to be surprised==

    Vote on what?

    The victory laps have been going on for a couple of years now.


  110. - dupage dan - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 4:52 pm:

    === wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:58 am: And DD, you never got the irony of my post on gun shows. You seem more confused every time you trot it out ===

    Actually, word, I get your “irony”. I just think it is lame beyond belief.

    I do understand your comment about weapons being dangerous no matter where they are. That’s why I asked the question about what is unique about a library. The world is a place full of risks. We can try to manage and minimize risk but we can’t make it disappear. The world doesn’t exist in a vacuum. The possibility that a madman or gangbanger can cause harm to another exists whether or not we have firearms, they are controlled, or folks have the right to lawfully carry them concealed. The question in my mind is what is the most rational way to accept the reality of firearms in our society, adhering to the 2nd amendement of the US constitution and making innocent folks as safe as possible. We can debate whether or not those desires are mutually inclusive or exclusive and come up with some real world strategies to address them.


  111. - How Ironic - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 4:58 pm:

    @Skeeter

    “If you think you need a gun to walk down Michigan Ave., then you are a danger to me.”

    No, that’s just irrational fear, and beyond that foolish. Ever been to Florida, Missouri, Indiana, Iowa, or anywhere for that outside of Illinois?

    How many times during those ventures outside the sheltered walls of Illinois were you assulted by members of the public at large that were carrying a firearm (concealed or open carry?).

    Your inablity to grasp the simple reality that not every gun owner is a mouth breathing zealot that can’t control their urge to fire off at any moment is stunning and indicative of your irrational fear.

    Get a grip. If I want to get a conceal carry permit and walk down Michigan ave, no one will be the wiser.

    You need to be worried about the thousands of folks that already carry, and don’t give one lick for the law. That’s who you should really be worried about.


  112. - dupage dan - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 5:04 pm:

    === Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 10:42 am:

    The things that scares the heck out of me is some guy from Effingham who thinks he needs a gun to walk down Michigan Ave. That person is more of a threat to me than terrorists or gangs ===

    So, I’m sure you can post links to the epidemic of street shootings commited by rural yokels who come to the big city and shoot the place up. You have the right to be askeered, Skeeter, but you don’t necessarily have the right to impose your phobia on others in the form of some CC law limits. If there are few events you can point to where otherwise law-abiding citizens have utilized a concealed weapon in the way you describe I have to call you on your unreasonable fear.


  113. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 5:10 pm:

    ==The world doesn’t exist in a vacuum.–

    Obviously, it could not.

    But the idea that you need to go packing in a library just takes the argument to the absurd, ergo, my comment.

    I’m 50 and have been rolling through the West Side on the CTA twice a day for 25 years.

    In all those many days, I’ve seen a few instances of petty crime — snatching chains, mostly, — but nothing that would make me think that anyone would be safer if I came up blasting.

    That’s my life experience.

    What are you all scared of? If you aren’t in the illegal drug business, or live in the neighborhoods where it goes on, do you really think you’re in a lot of danger? Where do you get that stuff?


  114. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 8:00 pm:

    –Legislators are strange folk, and Todd V does know them better than most,–

    That’s the rumor. Strange…. no wins in the GA, just in the Scalia courts.

    5-4 wins in the court. I wonder where those new Supreme Court justices will come from?

    A little research on the google, and it doesn’t take a big brain to see that the NRA is a paper tiger, like Gov. Rendell says.

    They have no money. They have no stroke. They don’t push the needle among suburban women.

    Between the 40 yard lines, they have nothing.

    Some free advice: Give Wayne a vacation.


  115. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 8:34 pm:

    Century City, LA, excuse me.


  116. - Excessively Rabid - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:25 pm:

    Other than thinking Quinn is as usual irrational and in denial, I don’t have a strong view on this. I do think that if one of those possibly apocryphal flash gangs materialized on Michigan Avenue to mug somebody, it would be cool to have a guy from Effingham come around the corner and shoot a few of them. Not that I have any belief at all in armed civilians who are not combat vets successfully defending themselves with firearms.


  117. - mainstream voter - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 9:57 pm:

    Please don’t spend my tax dollars on processing concealed carry permits. Gun owners should have to pay for this regulation and all of the collateral costs associated with it.


  118. - John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:25 pm:

    >>>>>> “If you think you need a gun to walk down Michigan Ave., then you are a danger to me.”

    There’s needs, wants and rights.

    I don’t NEED my self-defense firearm to walk down Michigan Ave, but I’d like to have it with me anyway. Right now the 7th CA says I have the right to do so.


  119. - RNUG - Wednesday, Feb 6, 13 @ 11:35 pm:

    mainstream voter

    Why? IL government, presumably at the behest of the IL taxpayers, is the one imposing the regulations. There is a cost associated with regulation.

    There is already going to be an individual cost of complying with any training and proficiency requirements, and maybe some additional cost for the fingerprinting, photo ID, etc. Beyond that, if you want to set up a big regulatory process, let all the taxpayers bear the cost. If you don’t want the extra cost, don’t impose the regulations. Just let the current FOID card serve as is.

    Or to put it another way, voting is a right. It has been ruled that government can not charge a fee (poll tax) to vote. Almost every photo voter ID law that has been struck down was done so on the fact that the voter had to pay a fee to get the ID, be it a driver’s license or other type of photo id.

    To draw an analogy, gun ownership and use is also a right. Even having to pay for the ID is, in my mind, questionable. Why should you have pay a fee to exercise this right but not for voting? The same rules should apply in both cases.


  120. - dupage dan - Thursday, Feb 7, 13 @ 6:33 am:

    word,

    I didn’t say I NEEDED to have a gun in a library. I was commenting on how one would abide by the sidewalk rule - how does one lawfully carry a concealed weapon on the sidewalk while they are doing important tasks, shopping, picking up a book at the library, getting a haircut and shave? Do they keep going back to the car to drop off the firearm each time? Is there a lockbox they can use? Seems like a way to make lawful carry a pain in the butt. We’ll wait and see if it passes court muster.

    The fact is, I don’t feel the need to carry a weapon in a library specifically. It is the idea of carrying a firearm lawfully - if there is a right specified in the constitution, I don’t have to justify my reasons to you or anybody else. As long as I don’t deny you any rights who are you to limit mine?

    I have had to visit some dangerous places in my lifetime. I have been menaced by dangerous folks. My home was invaded while it was occupied. These are the realities of life. I don’t dwell on them nor fear evil in every dark corner. I am a law abiding citizen who values human life and understand the limits of my capabilities. In your mind, I am a danger to the populace.

    Your fear of someone like me lawfully carrying a concealed weapon is not born out by the plain evidence of life in the whole of the USA. Rampant shootings by folks who carry weapons lawfully thruout this great country simply have not been happening. Your fears are, essentially, groundless. To harbor such fears despite the lack of evidence of the threat is akin to suffering from a phobia.


  121. - wizard - Thursday, Feb 7, 13 @ 8:45 am:

    dd @ 6:33 am. Well said, getting awfully tired of word’s condescending and smug attitude as if his opinion is the only correct one. Irony he says; my butt. Will I get a permit when they are offered? Definitely. Will I carry often. Probably not. I usually do not put myself in a situation where it is necessary. When I have no choice, I will carry (at least it would be legal then as it is not now). It is my freedom to choose.


  122. - John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt - Thursday, Feb 7, 13 @ 8:54 am:

    >>>>>> To draw an analogy, gun ownership and use is also a right. Even having to pay for the ID is, in my mind, questionable. Why should you have pay a fee to exercise this right but not for voting? The same rules should apply in both cases.

    The Illinois residents that hold no FOID but are “constitutional gun owners” is not something that is counted, but is certainly something one should consider as in existence.


  123. - Skeeter - Thursday, Feb 7, 13 @ 8:56 am:

    JJJS,
    I could give you an endless list of things that impact constitutional rights that are taxed.
    Why should guns be treated differently?


  124. - PM31 - Thursday, Feb 7, 13 @ 9:15 am:

    Both sides of this discussion are interested in passing “new laws” to regulate firearms.

    I have a BREAKTHROUGH IDEA!!!

    Why not enforce the EXISTING laws…
    and maybe this would not happen!

    From the Tribune:
    Boy, 15, arrested 19th time after armed robbery
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-boy-15-arrested-19th-time-after-armed-robbery-20130207,0,1937768.story?track=rss


  125. - dupage dan - Thursday, Feb 7, 13 @ 10:09 am:

    I note that neither Skeeter or word address the core of the comments presented. As is typical, they pick out some small portion of the comment and pick that apart without keeping in mind the general gist (called parsing!). It is a way of avoiding the central theme of the comment while taking to task some minor portion of the comment.

    The best example of this is their incessant fixation on some ficticious civilian walking down the street while lawfully carrying a concealed weapon causing mayhem. We are told we are a danger to society for wanting to exercise constitutional rights and assumed to be incapable of rational thought and action.

    Word, you once said you are willing to discuss the topic. I have yet to see you do that. It might actually be refreshing to read your prose addressing the true issue rather than posting your ironic statements.


  126. - wordslinger - Thursday, Feb 7, 13 @ 10:14 am:

    –The best example of this is their incessant fixation on some ficticious civilian walking down the street while lawfully carrying a concealed weapon causing mayhem.–

    Show me examples of my alleged “incessant fixation” as you describe it if you want to have an honest discussion.


  127. - Skeeter - Thursday, Feb 7, 13 @ 10:51 am:

    What Word said.

    Adding —

    Did I point out some random individual, or some person who claims to need a weapon? In reality, didn’t I distinguish the two?

    Your failure to distinguish the two does cause me to suspect that you are, as you say, incapable of rational thought.


  128. - PM31 - Thursday, Feb 7, 13 @ 11:59 am:

    Word, are you a Hermit? If you have traveled to ANY other state, you probably have been around a “civilian walking down the street while lawfully carrying a concealed weapon”.
    Where they causing any MAYHEM??? I would guess… NOT.


  129. - Skeeter - Thursday, Feb 7, 13 @ 12:03 pm:

    PM,
    Love the all caps in that last post, and the odd capitalization of “hermit.” Sure, you are calm enough to handle a gun.


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