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The hoopla has commenced in earnest

Monday, Jul 8, 2013

* From a July 5th press release

Governor Pat Quinn today visited the popular area surrounding Chicago’s Wrigley Field to discuss the importance of common-sense gun laws in Illinois, especially when it comes to concealed carry. Earlier this week Governor Quinn issued an amendatory veto of House Bill 183, legislation that would allow and regulate the carrying of concealed handguns in public places, to address several serious safety problems. One of the governor’s critical changes to ensure public safety is to prohibit concealed weapons from public areas such as taverns and restaurants where alcohol is served.

“Guns and alcohol are a toxic mix,” Governor Quinn said. “Public safety should never be negotiated away or compromised, and I will never support a flawed concealed carry bill that puts public safety at risk. The common-sense changes I outlined this week make this a better law and I encourage people to visit KeepIllinoisSafe.org, contact their state legislators and urge them to support these important changes.”

The Wrigleyville locale was a nice touch. Pretty much everybody knows that the neighborhood’s perpetual drunken street fest is a nightmare.

But the original bill banned concealed carry in taverns, or any place where booze was at least half of revenues. Quinn merely expanded it to include places like restaurants.

* Also, check out this language from the AV…

A person shall not carry a concealed firearm onto the private real property of another without prior permission from the property owner. A property owner shall indicate permission to carry concealed firearms by posting a sign at the entrance of a building, premises, or real property, except this posting is not required if the property is a private residence

The bill as passed said business owners could post signs banning guns. Quinn reversed the polarity.

* From a July 7th press release

Governor Pat Quinn today joined local residents for a community walk on the south side of Chicago to discuss the importance of common-sense gun laws in Illinois, especially when it comes to concealed carry. Earlier this week Governor Quinn issued an amendatory veto of House Bill 183, legislation that would allow and regulate the carrying of concealed handguns in public places, to address several serious safety problems. The changes address several serious safety problems with the legislation and will make communities safer across the state.

“The people of Illinois deserve common-sense gun policies that keep them safe,” Governor Quinn said. “No one needs to carry more than one gun and 10 rounds of ammunition for self-protection. As we continue to fight the gun violence that plagues many communities, the common-sense changes I made last week are crucial to public safety.”

Trained and licensed concealed carriers aren’t the problem. It’s the untrained, unlicensed illegal gun owners who are the real problem. This is just rhetoric. Eric Zorn

Look, someone planning a massacre in a public place isn’t going to be deterred by such a limit — probably isn’t going to go through the trouble of getting a permit — and the whole idea of CCW is that it arms good guys. And whether you like that idea or not, it’s going to be the law. So why disarm good guys?

* And Quinn’s rejection of a provision that gives municipalities ten days from the law’s effective date to enact assault weapons bans is apparently just symbolic, since few locals are actually moving ahead with their bans

As Illinois prepares to become the last state in the country to allow the concealed carry of firearms, few of its communities appear concerned that the window allowing them to ban assault-style weapons will rapidly begin closing next week.

Despite encouragement from Lt. Gov. Sheila Simon — and on the verge of almost-certain enactment next week of a law allowing residents to carry concealed weapons — only four communities have adopted semi-automatic gun restrictions out of more than two dozen taking them up.

According to interviews and information from gun-rights groups such as the Illinois State Rifle Association, 14 communities have rejected or decided not to act on proposed bans. Ten have yet to vote or have delayed consideration.

All of them are in the Chicago metropolitan area. Those adopting bans — Highland Park, North Chicago, Melrose Park, and Skokie — join eight other cities, also near Chicago, that already regulate possession or sale and transfer of illegal weapons, according to research compiled by the Illinois House Democrats’ staff.

* Bill Daley’s mouthpiece makes a valid point

“The governor didn’t do his job during the legislative session,” said Pete Giangreco, spokesman for former White House Chief of Staff Bill Daley, a gun-control advocate who is challenging Quinn for the Democratic nomination for governor next year. “You can’t fix that by having a well-rehearsed press conference.”

* From that well-rehearsed press conference

It was an event that had all the trappings of a campaign rally. Quinn supporters, including children, lined up around him with placards denouncing gun violence. Some held photos of murdered loved ones. Quinn announced a website in support of his actions — “KeepIllinoisSafe.org” — laying out his case against the original bill and providing information for people to contact their legislators.

“My job is to fight for the 13 million people of Illinois every day,” Quinn said, to fervent applause from those gathered with him. “I don’t believe the National Rifle Association is an authority on public safety.” […]

Quinn, meanwhile, has alleged it’s not he who is playing politics with the gun issue, but the supporters of the original bill — people he alleged are “mouthpieces for the NRA.”

“The General Assembly … should put aside politics and focus on people and their safety,” Quinn said last week.

One of the main supporters of the original bill was House Speaker Michael Madigan. I seriously doubt he’s a mouthpiece for the NRA.

* Finke

For a while there, it seemed like Rod Blagojevich had come back as governor.

But no, it was just Gov. Pat Quinn doing his best Blago impression last week with concealed carry.

As a governor, when you act on a controversial, high-profile bill like concealed carry and want to make some political points at the same time, you do it at a public ceremony. And that’s what Quinn did. The news media were summoned to an event in Chicago. The place was packed with people. There were law enforcement people. There were people from gun-control organizations. There were family members of gun-violence victims. And, of course, there were the children. That was a common Blagojevich technique, to use children as props in his public events.

Then there was Quinn’s action on the bill itself. He didn’t use his amendatory veto powers to do a nip and tuck on concealed carry. He extensively rewrote the bill with stuff that wasn’t agreed to by negotiators during weeks of discussions. That was also something out of the Blagojevich playbook.

Word.

But keep in mind that RRB won two statewide elections.

* Related…

* Chicago Gun Violence Deadly Over Long Holiday Weekend Ahead Of Concealed Carry Deadline

* Rep. Phelps: Quinn playing politics with guns: “The governor’s acting like the mayor (of Chicago),” Phelps said. “He represents 102 counties. He can’t just pick one out.”

* Editorial: Quinn’s gamble on guns: If Quinn doesn’t line up the votes to support him, but he peels off enough votes to defeat an override of his veto, Tuesday will bring no new law … and possibly chaos. Illinois could be left without a law prohibiting or regulating the concealed carry of weapons… That would be an all-around, and potentially dangerous, failure of leadership.

* Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn’s Last Minute Changes to Concealed-Carry Bill Has Gun-Advocates Up in Arms

* Will Co. concealed carry proponents criticize Quinn

* Is the Right to Bear Arms Plural?

- Posted by Rich Miller        


82 Comments
  1. - walkinfool - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 11:47 am:

    The Gov brought up a couple of good points in his AV, like further clarifying what “concealed” means — that I think could have been agreed to by both sides as part of the compromise bill if they had been offered in committee 6 months ago.

    His overall AV contains so many other points that must be rejected, if we support the idea of hard- fought, bipartisan compromise, that it hasn’t got a chance.


  2. - OneMan - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 11:47 am:

    Well the website re-directs to a state web site. The actual domain he is promoting was registered by someone from the Lt. Governor’s office on June 30th

    http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/results.jsp?domain=KeepIllinoisSafe.org


  3. - wordslinger - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 11:48 am:

    I can see the restaurant proposal — an assumed ban unless there’s signage welcoming concealed-carry — having some legs in the near future.

    There will be all sorts of proposed changes from all sides in the coming years.

    Despite what some here will tell you, the federal court of appeals didn’t require the state to do anything. They just struck down the old law as going too far.


  4. - haverford - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 11:50 am:

    I was in MN during the conceal carry debate and bill passage there. Allowed guns in the Capitol, courtrooms, etc.

    In MN (they may have amended since 2002, but this was how it passed), any biz, church, etc. must post a sign saying No Guns Allowed and then PHYSICALLY tell every person that comes in that guns are not allowed. Why? To quote the sponsor, “I don’t think we should assume all these people can see”… What?!

    And that’s a yes to having to post the same signage in your home or car. But you probably shouldn’t do that, again, according to the sponsor “because then the bad people will know you’re unprotected.”

    Totally back Quinn on the signage move. You shouldn’t have to post a sign to keep guns out on your owned or leased property, you should be allowed to invite them in, if that’s your preference.

    I figure if it applies to, say, a dog, it should apply to a gun.


  5. - Motambe - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 11:50 am:

    Governor Quinn continues to use words such as “tragedy, disaster, and flawed.” All are good descriptions for his failed, Don Quixote-like leadership. He is very good at chasing windmills. Lousy at being governor.


  6. - wndycty - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 11:50 am:

    “Trained and licensed concealed carriers aren’t the problem. It’s the untrained, unlicensed illegal gun owners who are the real problem.”

    Tell that to Trayvon Martin, which is my big concern. I was reading the comments section of one of the Chicago papers and in discussing all of the Chicago shootings someone commented that once CCW was in place the citizens could fight back.

    Make me wonder if folks are going to go George Zimmerman vigilante and start harassing suspicious people in neighborhoods impacted by gun violence. Conceal carry would have done NOTHING to prevent this weekend’s gun violence in Chicago. NOT A THING.


  7. - Rich Miller - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 11:52 am:

    ===Tell that to Trayvon Martin===

    The plural of anecdote is not data.


  8. - VonKlutzenplatz - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 11:56 am:

    I keep hearing that Quinn had absolutely zero role in negotiating the bill. He did nothing until after it was passed.

    Has anybody heard any differently?

    For those older than me — how would Ryan, Edgar and Thompson have handled something similar? Were they in the room getting a deal done? Are Quinn’s tactics unusual?


  9. - wndycty - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:01 pm:

    I understand that Rich, but I am concerned about the George Zimmerman types. There might not be data to back that up but hearing some of the rhetoric from the ISRA and being an African American male myself I feel that my concern is legitimate. At the end of the day folks will get to carry and I am not going to feel good about it ever. Its an opinion.


  10. - haverford - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:01 pm:

    ====Tell that to Trayvon Martin====

    ==The plural of anecdote is not data.==

    No, but it speaks to Zorn’s point about the “good guys.”

    Without a gun, I doubt Zimmerman stalks Martin and confronts him. His comfort in his concealed weapon allowed him to pick a fight with a stranger, and (best case scenario) when he was on the losing end of the fight, shoot him.

    Circumstances can sometimes make a ‘good’ guy into a ‘bad’ guy - and a gun just makes it end more poorly.

    This shouldn’t turn into a Zimmerman/Martin thread. I hate guns, but I’d prefer open carry if we’re going to have carry. I want to see what you’re toting, cowboy. Conceal carry is just the threat of getting on someone’s bad side at all times (which, I hope, isn’t the point…)


  11. - VonKlutzenplatz - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:05 pm:

    wndycty,
    There is no data to support your fear.
    With all due respect, we should not make laws based on irrational fear.


  12. - Mike Weisman - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:08 pm:

    >>>>> hearing some of the rhetoric from the ISRA and being an African American male myself

    The African American ISRA members might not agree with you.

    Please show me something from the ISRA that’s racist.


  13. - 47th Ward - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:09 pm:

    ===It was an event that had all the trappings of a campaign rally. Quinn supporters, including children, lined up around him with placards denouncing gun violence. Some held photos of murdered loved ones.===

    Yep.


  14. - wndycty - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:10 pm:

    I am allowed my fear and my fear is based upon situations like the one Trayvon Martin experienced, just as the ISRA is allowed its crazy rhetoric. No?


  15. - RonOglesby - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:11 pm:

    @wndcty

    Like he said, its not data. Your worries are much like the worries since the 1980’s that there would be shoot outs over parking spots and blood in the streets… In every other state that has passed concealed carry laws or loosened them. Those fears have been shown to be unfounded.


  16. - Rich Miller - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:14 pm:

    ===just as the ISRA is allowed its crazy rhetoric===

    You do know that I’ve come down hard on the ISRA for its crazy rhetoric, right?

    So, deal with it.


  17. - wndycty - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:16 pm:

    Its funny that I am being told my fear is unfounded. But the fear of those who feel the need to carry a conceal weapon is real. LOL


  18. - Slick Willy - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:17 pm:

    What exactly is your fear? Is it that a bunch of white people are going to pay the fees and take the classes to get their CCW permits and then band together in wild vigilante groups (complete with torches and pitchforks for those that cannot get their permits) and hunt down random black people that are “the wrong neighborhood”?


  19. - VonKlutzenplatz - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:19 pm:

    W, whether you are “allowed your fear” is really up to you, and perhaps your therapist.

    A lot of us have irrational fears. I personally am sort of creeped out by cats. They move way to quietly. And they don’t seem to really like humans. If it was up to me, nobody would keep them as pets.

    But we shouldn’t limit freedom based on irrational fear.


  20. - Mike Weisman - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:20 pm:

    If wndycty lives in The Windy City, he/she may be hearing gun fire or be aware of injuries and deaths involving guns. Neither legal CCW nor African American ISRA members nor Anglo ISRA members are involved. Yet there is a good reason to be afraid right now, and that’s from violent acts committed by criminals.


  21. - wishbone - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:20 pm:

    “Please show me something from the ISRA that’s racist.”

    I am a strong gun rights advocate, but it is a fact that the idiots at ISRA called our President an “animal”. That rates as racist for me.


  22. - Libertyville's finest - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:22 pm:

    State Rep Ann Williams stated she would support separate legislation to keep guns out of restaurants. This was driven by the Illinois Restaurant Association. Not public safety. Tomorrow we will have CCW and Wednesday numerous bills to clip its wings


  23. - Libertyville's finest - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:23 pm:

    Leave wndycty alone! You’re proving his point and he has a good one


  24. - Cassiopeia - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:28 pm:

    Whats happens when Quinn’s attempt at temporary political gain ends up with a failed override? Then there are no rules and he wears the jacket for the mess.

    Then he axes the GA budget and then all heck breaks out.

    Maybe the GA should just impeach Pat and Shiela for gross incompetence and let Lisa be Governor? She is next in line.


  25. - Libertyville's finest - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:32 pm:

    —-Rich Miller—- question: aren’t we all just talking here? Quinn and Madigan and Cullerton talk. Isn’t this just theatre? The game as its played? Of course he will get overriden. That’s the game, right?


  26. - Cook County Commoner - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:46 pm:

    “Guns and alcohol are a toxic mix”.
    So are guns and unemployment, poor housing, lack of healthcare, poor public schools, deteriorating public services, etc.
    Perhaps, if the state honestly and immediately addressed its fiscal issues, such as unsustainable public pensions and and its fiscal inhospitability to business, the gun issue would be relegated to the back page.


  27. - the unknown poster - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 12:49 pm:

    @wndycty

    “Conceal carry would have done NOTHING to prevent this weekend’s gun violence in Chicago. NOT A THING.”

    Neither did the conceal carry ban.


  28. - Esquire - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 1:10 pm:

    The violence that occurred in Chicago this holiday weekend was not the result of FOID card holders availing themselves of a Conceal Carry law.

    49/50 states already have similar laws on the books. Quinn is pandering; the General Assembly will override his amendatory veto if necessary.

    I do not buy all of the vigilante stories: The jury is going to have to deliberate and render a verdict on the Travon Martin case. Apart from the pretrial publicity campaign (depicting Martin as a sweet ten year old rather than a somewhat menacing seventeen year old on school suspension because of disciplinary issues), I do not see the prosecutors pressing charges in that case. If Martin had opted to walk away rather than breaking Zimmerman’s nose and pounding his head into the sidewalk, maybe he would be alive today. Based upon the evidence that was in the media, it is difficult to imagine Zimmerman being convicted on account of the right to self defense. If someone breaks your nose, do you wait for the same person to break your jaw.


  29. - siriusly - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 1:14 pm:

    According to the Violence Policy Center 24 law enforcement agents have been murdered by conceal carry permit holders, and 500+ citizens have been killed by CCW permit holders.

    Everyone’s a law abiding citizen, until the moment when they are not.

    wndycity - your fears are valid, and so is your right to speak of them

    I personally do not fear the ISRA or any of the really involved the gun rights advocates, and I don’t fear any of the CapFax blog posters. Anyone who is so dedicated to a policy debate on an issue is very likely to be rational enough to know how to use firearms properly in all situations.

    What I really fear are the non-ISRA members with concealed weapons - these might be the people who doesn’t show up at rallies or follow the policy debates. But he could be the one guy who has his gun with him when he gets cut off in traffic, or he has too many drinks, or just lost his job when I bump into him by accident (because I am clumsy).

    We all face situations in our lives where we lose our cool, where we say or do things we regret. I know I have. Does that person having a gun on his your hip make those situations more safe or less safe for me and my family?


  30. - Small Town Liberal - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 1:33 pm:

    - If someone breaks your nose, do you wait for the same person to break your jaw. -

    Yeah, let’s cry for Zimmerman. Keep in mind he admittedly chased the kid even after being told not to, and regardless of Trayvon’s school record he hadn’t done anything wrong that night.

    But keep defending your wannabe cowboy buddy, I hope he gets what he deserves.


  31. - RonOglesby - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 1:39 pm:

    @ siriusly,

    Did you happen to notice how many of those 24 LEO’s killed by license holders were justified as self defense? Also, in the overall study they included CCW holders that… UH… Killed themselves… in their own home…

    Watch the details. they count.


  32. - wordslinger - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 1:39 pm:

    –49/50 states already have similar laws on the books.–

    It never dies.

    No, there’s quite a range. At either end they’re not similar at all.


  33. - VonKlutzenplatz - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 1:41 pm:

    Sure Word, there is quite a range.

    But in zero of the 49 has there been any massive outbreak of CC shootings.

    There are simply no stats from anywhere to support the allegation of impending doom.


  34. - wordslinger - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 1:41 pm:

    –Did you happen to notice how many of those 24 LEO’s killed by license holders were justified as self defense?–

    How many?


  35. - Phenomynous - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 1:42 pm:

    I’m fairly certain that most people here talking about the Martin/Zimmerman confrontation actually have no idea as to what the facts or timeline of events was. Give it a rest…jeez.


  36. - Small Town Liberal - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 1:47 pm:

    - actually have no idea as to what the facts or timeline of events was -

    Except what was on the tape, with Zimmerman clearly saying he was chasing Trayvon while the dispatcher told him not to.


  37. - the unknown poster - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 1:48 pm:

    “But keep defending your wannabe cowboy buddy, I hope he gets what he deserves.”

    ummmm…..acquittal? Prosecution has not proved its case and may have aided the defense.


  38. - VonKlutzenplatz - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 1:51 pm:

    It is amazing how many people claim to be experts on the Zimmerman trial.

    None of us were there.

    Let the jury decide. Until then, please stop boring the rest of us with comments about that trial.


  39. - RonOglesby - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 1:51 pm:

    @Small Town

    - actually have no idea as to what the facts or timeline of events was -

    Actually, no. I have been following it a bit. (not the testimony of DNA people, but the time line and “eye” witness folks) and uh… thats not what has been said, even with the prosecution witnesses or the person that took the call.


  40. - Small Town Liberal - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 1:53 pm:

    - It is amazing how many people claim to be experts on the Zimmerman trial. -

    And it’s amazing how many gun nuts rush to his defense. He admittedly chased a kid for no reason, and ended up shooting that same kid, and killing him.

    Whatever happens in the trial, he’s a disgrace, and responsible gun owners should call him the coward that he is.


  41. - VonKlutzenplatz - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 1:55 pm:

    STL,
    You weren’t there,
    You don’t know what happened.
    Let the jury decide.


  42. - wordslinger - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:01 pm:

    –There are simply no stats from anywhere to support the allegation of impending doom.–

    Funny, I don’t recall writing anything about “impending doom.”


  43. - Anonymous - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:02 pm:

    The debate over the Zimmerman trial and gun control in Illinois to me is amazing. Where is the outrage over 70 people shot in Chicago over the weekend. These are real people living in a war zone in the most gun controlled environment in the Country. Why not a real debate on how to stop this violence Governor Quinn, not hiding behind verbal that guns in restaurants are the main program?


  44. - VonKlutzenplatz - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:03 pm:

    Heck Word, you should read this thread then. You will find all sorts of comments of that nature right here in this thread.


  45. - Esquire - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:18 pm:

    @Small Town Liberal:

    Less than a week ago, a minority youth was arrested on my own block. It turns out that the police found a crow bar and a pair of bolt cutters nearby. A window to a residence was found broken, but no burglary occurred because a neighbor who had observed the suspect called for the police.

    Was this person “profiled” too? Someone was watching him before the police were summoned and he was not given the opportunity to complete a crime.

    Travon Martin did beat up George Zimmerman before he was shot. Perhaps after someone breaks your nose, you can show us what response is appropriate and what is cowardly. Maybe life is simpler in a smalltown. The Florida community in question is close to Orlando. A friend of mine lived in the vicinity and the subdivision in question had been subject to a series of crimes.

    Maybe if the police dispatcher had sent a patrol car rather than dismissing Zimmerman’s telephone call, Martin would have lived.

    In our litigious society, I would not be surprised to see Martin’s parents sue the local police or municipal government for not sending a police car after receiving the call.

    Concealed carry laws do prevent crimes because many criminals are cowardly when their intended victims may not be unarmed.


  46. - Demoralized - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:26 pm:

    ==Perhaps after someone breaks your nose, you can show us what response is appropriate and what is cowardly.==

    Yes, let’s blow some guy’s head off for punching us in the nose. Shooting somebody is certainly an appropriate response to that. Sheesh.


  47. - wordslinger - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:28 pm:

    –Concealed carry laws do prevent crimes because many criminals are cowardly when their intended victims may not be unarmed.–

    Who says? Seems kind of simplistic, doesn’t it?

    Concentrated poverty would seem to the primary driver.

    http://247wallst.com/2013/06/13/the-most-dangerous-cities-in-america-3/2/


  48. - Esquire - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:32 pm:

    There is an author, formerly from the University of Chicago, by the name of John Lott that you might want to consult.

    As for having your nose broken, the testimony was that the beating be administered by Martin had not stopped. The bullet fired by Zimmerman stopped the beating.

    By the way, was Martin within his rights to beat up Zimmerman for being followed or questioned? Take a criminal law class someday.


  49. - Esquire - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:33 pm:

    “beating being administered”


  50. - Demoralized - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:34 pm:

    @Esquire:

    Give me a break. And why don’t we just end the trial right now since you seem to be such an expert on everything that happened. They should call you to testify since you have everything figured out. Oh, and I’ve taken a few law classes in my day, thanks. But I’ll be sure to defer to your expert knowledge next time.


  51. - Small Town Liberal - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:35 pm:

    - Perhaps after someone breaks your nose, you can show us what response is appropriate and what is cowardly. -

    What if the situation was reversed, and Trayvon had gotten out of a car and chased Zimmerman for no reason. Would it have been appropriate for Zimmerman to shoot him?

    The loser should have stayed in his car and let the police do their job. Instead he chose to fullfill his hero fantasy, with a gun, against a teenager. What courage.


  52. - VonKlutzenplatz - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:36 pm:

    Esquire,
    John Lott?
    The guy who “lost” all his data?
    Are you serious?


  53. - Demoralized - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:36 pm:

    @Esquire:

    Also if you think the appropriate response is to shoot somebody then I think you are the example of why concealed carry might not be a good idea. I support it but if this is the attitude of some people then I might rethink my stance.


  54. - Wensicia - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:42 pm:

    ==–Concealed carry laws do prevent crimes because many criminals are cowardly when their intended victims may not be unarmed.==

    I’m more worried about the coward who carries a gun, then takes cover behind “fear” as the reason to use it while provoking another. That’s what we’re seeing in the Zimmerman case.


  55. - wordslinger - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:44 pm:

    -–Did you happen to notice how many of those 24 LEO’s killed by license holders were justified as self defense?–-

    Ron, since you raised the question, I’ll try to make it easier for you:

    Can you name one killing of a cop by a license holder that was ruled justified?


  56. - wndycty - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:54 pm:

    You see @Demoralized, @Esquire is kind of proving my point. Conceal carry will make a bunch of vigilante types think its ok to hunt down innocent, but “suspicious” looking youth. The guy is defending the shooting of an unarmed teen. I suspect there are more conceal carry advocates like him.


  57. - Rich Miller - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:57 pm:

    ===in the Zimmerman case===

    It’s never a good idea to enact laws based on one unusual case.

    That being said, the real problem in that instance was Florida’s “Stand your ground” law, not its concealed carry law.


  58. - VonKlutzenplatz - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 2:57 pm:

    Esquire, why do you find it necessary to point out that the person allegedly breaking into a house on your block was “minority”?

    Your comment for those who did not notice:

    “Less than a week ago, a minority youth was arrested on my own block. It turns out that the police found a crow bar and a pair of bolt cutters nearby. A window to a residence was found broken, but no burglary occurred because a neighbor who had observed the suspect called for the police.”


  59. - the unknown poster - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 3:03 pm:

    Yep, packs of vigilante concealed carry permit holders are running rampant in the other 49 states. Why wasn’t I told of this?


  60. - Rich Miller - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 3:03 pm:

    ===Perhaps after someone breaks your nose, you can show us what response is appropriate===

    Hey, idiot, if you shoot someone in Illinois who breaks your nose you’ll be arrested for manslaughter/murder/etc.

    Again, the problem is Florida’s “Stand your ground” law, which Illinois does not have.

    Move along. Both sides.


  61. - Sir Reel - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 3:07 pm:

    As I recall the Governor didn’t participate in the CC debate or bill negotiations much other than generalities like, “I oppose assault weapons.” Why didn’t he raise his AV points earlier? Oh, I forgot, dumb question.


  62. - Mason born - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 3:10 pm:

    Rich,

    I know you said move along and i am. However it is important to note the stand your ground law doesn’t apply here. Stand your ground removed the duty to retreat codified in florida law. If Zimmerman is telling the truth and was on the ground pinned by Martin (and at least one witness corroborates) then he could not retreat. that is why it is being tried as a straight self defense.


  63. - RonOglesby - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 3:41 pm:

    @Rich


    That being said, the real problem in that instance was Florida’s “Stand your ground” law, not its concealed carry law.

    Not even being invoked in the trial. Defense waived it.


  64. - Precinct Captain - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 3:43 pm:

    Why attack wndycty for using anecdotes and not data, but not CCW supporters? A lot of The Cause is based on anecdotes and fear because there is no credible statistical basis to say that CCW reduces crime (nor is there any to say it increases crime).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States#Research_on_the_efficacy_of_concealed_carry


  65. - LisleMike - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 3:49 pm:

    I am surprised at the postings. Rich is right, move along. I normally learn more here than other places but today is a verison of “did to, did not, did to, did not”. You guys can all do (and have done) better. You have your opinions, they were shared, and beating it over and over, again and again doesn’t make it stronger. c’mon!


  66. - Precinct Captain - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 3:51 pm:

    ==What exactly is your fear? Is it that a bunch of white people are going to pay the fees and take the classes to get their CCW permits and then band together in wild vigilante groups (complete with torches and pitchforks for those that cannot get their permits) and hunt down random black people that are “the wrong neighborhood”?==

    At least a quarter of American people were alive when things like this did still happen in America.
    http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-03.pdf

    Also, check out AC Thompson’s Nation article from a few years back. http://www.thenation.com/article/katrinas-hidden-race-war


  67. - VonKlutzenplatz - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 3:52 pm:

    Precinct Captain,

    It is because when you are against freedom, you have the burden of showing a substantial need.

    The anti-carry people have not shown that CC makes things noticeably worse (or better) so why limit freedom?


  68. - Logic not emotion - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 3:53 pm:

    Sorry. Others posted similar stuff while I was typing.

    I’m anxious to see how it all plays out tomorrow.


  69. - capncrunch - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 3:55 pm:

    “There are simply no stats from anywhere to support the allegation of impending doom.”

    That’s correct. In fact, there is data that show the expansion of CCW legislation has not been accompanied by increased gun death rates. In 1989, 21 states had passed concealed carry laws. Today 49 have such laws. According to CDC data, the number of firearm homicide deaths increased from 14,464 in 1989 to 11,078 in 2010(it peaked at 18,253 in 1993). Firearm suicides rose from 18,178 to 19,392. Per 100,000 people, however, gun homicides have declined from 5.9 in 1989 to 3.6 in 2010 while firearm suicides declined from 7.36 to 6.28.


  70. - Precinct Captain - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 4:14 pm:

    ==Less than a week ago, a minority youth was arrested on my own block. It turns out that the police found a crow bar and a pair of bolt cutters nearby. A window to a residence was found broken, but no burglary occurred because a neighbor who had observed the suspect called for the police.

    Was this person “profiled” too? Someone was watching him before the police were summoned and he was not given the opportunity to complete a crime.==

    So someone called the police while seeing the commission of the crime? That’s totally different than what happened in the Trayvon Martin killing.

    ==the real problem in that instance==
    Rich, another issue is that the Sanford police used SYG as a BS excuse not utilize resources on the death of a young black male, instead buying into his killer’s account of events with barely any questions asked.


  71. - CJA - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 5:09 pm:

    Having sat through firearm training and classes to get out-of-state CCW permits, I can tell you that one of the things pounded into people is the legal side of what you can and cannot do when armed. Even in-the-house self-defense comes with a lot of legal ramifications. To think that because someone has a CCW means they are automatically going to “go Rambo” is a really bad overgeneralization. Living with a firearm and carrying it in public creates MORE respect for that responsibility from 99% of the people who do it legally. Do not characterize the 99% of rational, respectful, legal people by the 1% who don’t follow the rules. Every facet of life has the 1%.


  72. - Fan - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 5:11 pm:

    Boy, is there gonna be some pretty disappointed Lefties when this verdict comes in…


  73. - FormerParatrooper - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 5:43 pm:

    PQ is doing what weak leaders do. He did not provide input into the legislation nor did he provide guidance, but he sure is critical of it. Leadership is lost here.


  74. - Yeah I'm chicken - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 6:25 pm:

    I saw a sound bite from the Gov saying he made 5 parades in 24 hours. I didn’t know the clown shortage was so severe….


  75. - Mr. Wonderful - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 6:29 pm:

    Enactment of concealed carry will be pretty transparent. Less than 10% of the population will even apply for a permit, of those, only a fraciton will carry.

    On the upside, people will be able to exercise their right to defend themselves if they so wish. I see absolutely no downside to passing concealed carry.

    A year from now, everybody will have forgotten all about concealed carry. By that time, the ISRA will be supporting the state’s gun owners by fighting against “assault weapons” bans and other foolish gun control schemes.

    So, sit back and relax.


  76. - leonard - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 7:04 pm:

    Will I have to buy a pitchfork and torch if I get a CCW?


  77. - Precinct Captain - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 9:46 pm:

    ==I saw a sound bite from the Gov saying he made 5 parades in 24 hours. I didn’t know the clown shortage was so severe….==

    Have seen the price of clown college these days? It squeezes out new ones.

    ==Living with a firearm and carrying it in public creates MORE respect for that responsibility from 99% of the people who do it legally. Do not characterize the 99% of rational, respectful, legal people by the 1% who don’t follow the rules. Every facet of life has the 1%.==
    Sources?


  78. - Double Take - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 11:14 pm:

    A moment of clarity?

    Following a lengthy public comment session, including citizens who were pro and con on the proposed legislation, the Evanston City Counsel agreed to defer action on its proposed assault weapons ban ordinance and postpone a vote until its next meeting.

    Alderman Donald N Wilson (4th Ward), who favors some type of home rule restrictions on assault weapons, conceded that the proposed home rule ordinance was seriously flawed in that it would effectively outlaw the ownership of basic hunting rifles and would not genuinely restrict military weapons designed to fire large numbers of rounds. He suggested that the ordinance as written would not accomplish anything other than to lead to costly litigation!

    The Council directed the Evanston City Attorney to rewrite the ordinance to conform to similar local laws that have passed constitutional muster.

    What made this temporary setback most interesting is that the draft ordinance which was rejected in Evansotn as unworkable was modeled after the ordinances passed in Chicago and Cook County.

    ISRA members are smiling. During the public comment period, one speaker challenged the Council to acknowledge that Evanston does not have a gun problem per se, but a serious street gang and drug trafficking problem. Most of the shooting victims in recent years have been involved in criminal activities.


  79. - american - Monday, Jul 8, 13 @ 11:35 pm:

    “You will never have a democracy when you take from those willing to work and give it to those who are not”
    Thomas Jefferson


  80. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Jul 9, 13 @ 8:18 am:

    –“You will never have a democracy when you take from those willing to work and give it to those who are not”
    Thomas Jefferson –

    american (catchy handle) I’m sure that has some connection to the gun bill somehow.

    You do see the irony, if not hypocrisy, in Jefferson extolling the intrinsic value of labor in a democracy, don’t you? The dude made his living appropriating the labor of slaves.


  81. - Slick Willy - Tuesday, Jul 9, 13 @ 8:39 am:

    A guy with the handle “Wordslinger” poking fun of a guy with a handle “American”. Kettle, meet pot…


  82. - CJA - Tuesday, Jul 9, 13 @ 8:41 am:

    ==Living with a firearm and carrying it in public creates MORE respect for that responsibility from 99% of the people who do it legally. Do not characterize the 99% of rational, respectful, legal people by the 1% who don’t follow the rules. Every facet of life has the 1%.==
    Sources?=

    Numerous interviews journalists have had with gun owners — try Dan Baum as a start. Also, the fact there are a relatively low number of legal CCW gun shootings compared to illegal/criminal offenses.


Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.


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