Today’s numbers
Tuesday, Oct 1, 2013 - Posted by Rich Miller
* AP…
The issue of gun permits surfaced briefly in the Illinois governor’s race, when a candidate claimed that the Illinois State Police had a backlog of 75,000 gun-owner’s ID applications under Gov. Pat Quinn, forcing hunters to miss entire hunting seasons.
The real number isn’t that high — just 49,000, according to state police. But those numbers belie a bigger headache awaiting the state’s bureaucracy now that lawmakers have set in motion a process to facilitate the carrying of concealed weapons in public, as mandated by a federal court order.
Whereas a few years ago, 1.2 million Illinoisans held Firearm Owners Identification cards, the number has jumped to 1.6 million, state police spokeswoman Monique Bond said. Soon after the court decreed in December that Illinois couldn’t ban public carry anymore, demand for FOID cards jumped precipitously. In January alone, Bond reported, there were 61,000 FOID applications, nearly double the 31,000 in January 2012.
Once the state’s new concealed-carry law is fully in place, state police officials expect 400,000 applications in the first year for the $150 “carry” permits, a number on top of the 49,000 waiting for a $10 FOID which gives them permission to own a gun — permission that’s unique among states.
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 10:27 am:
Here come the comments about people’s Constitutional rights being trampled on . . . .
- dupage dan - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 10:31 am:
Here come the comments by gun haters………..
- FormerParatrooper - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 10:40 am:
Sounds like a logistical problem. Maybe we should remove the bureaucrats and have UPS take care of it, after all they love logistics.
- wordslinger - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 10:47 am:
I’m sure Todd, Phelps and the boys saw this coming.
But it was probably smarter just to get the bill passed first. It would have been a tougher sell if there had been discussion as to what it would cost in new hires to implement the law efficiently.
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 10:49 am:
==Here come the comments by gun haters==
I don’t hate guns. I like it how when anybody has something to say about the subject they are a “gun hater.” Grow up.
- dupage dan - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 11:03 am:
You gon’t get the irony in your statement, Demoralized?
- Amalia - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 11:06 am:
don’t know how the state can get all the work done. the concealed carry permits are the most important review to do, and gun purchases that happen in dealerships require a background check, so I’m inclined to have the legislature require background checks for all purchases and scrap the FOID card. the cost does not support the work necessary to do the work and it takes too long to get permits to applicants.
- Stones - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 11:12 am:
Given the sheer volume of conceal carry permits as well as other fingerprint checks (which are mandated) for various functions, the ISP just doesn’t have the resources availble to process the workload in a timely fashion. The fact is many employees that performed those functions have left via retirement and their positions have not been filled.
- Mason born - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 11:13 am:
@Word
In what way can you avoid that?
–But it was probably smarter just to get the bill passed first. It would have been a tougher sell if there had been discussion as to what it would cost in new hires to implement the law efficiently. —
Seems to me no matter how you draft the law sooner or later you are going to have the problems Rich points out. Granted the Foid is all on ISP mismanagement but they had to know that there would be a rush for the permits.
- Allen Skillicorn - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 11:53 am:
My foid card renewal took about 115 days. Four months is an unreasonable delay.
- Tequila Mockingbird - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 12:01 pm:
My Utah nonresident permit took 3 weeks and they process a heck of a lot of permits. Maybe Illinois should outsource it. Or maybe they shouldn’t have made it such a convoluted complicated bureaucratic process in the first place.
- John Boch - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 12:04 pm:
The ISP is doing a fine job throttling the number of potential carry license applicants by slow-walking the approval process for instructors.
We seem to have broken the logjam at ISP headquarters and we now have about 750 instructors, and as of 6pm yesterday, a host of approved curricula.
The problem is that everyone who wants a license is going to need at least 8-hours (and in many cases, the full 16-hours) of training.
There are only so many ranges in Illinois and once the cold temperatures and snow arrives, that number *really* shrinks as there are probably less than 40 indoor ranges in the entire state.
ISP is slated to release the applications in January.
At best, I believe there will be 25,000 training seats available before January for the 400,000 people the ISP believes will want a license and need to have successfully completed the training required.
Until springtime rolls around next year, it’s going to be a serious logjam among would-be applicants.
Intentional or not, this chokepoint will certainly aid the ISP in their efforts to try to be a little more timely with CCW applications than they have proven themselves with the FOID applications in recent years.
John
- Hedley Lamarr - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 12:07 pm:
My wife’s renewal earlier this year took 121 days. Not bad for a 30 statutory requirement, huh?
Where else can you get away with brazenly blowing off such a law?
- trooper - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 12:33 pm:
The ISP has around 25 people in the foid section to process those 60k applications per month. It isnt mismanagement by the department, it’s a lack of manpower related to funding and staffing of the department as a whole. 61,000 applications to be processed by an office smaller than most SOS satellite sites.
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 1:39 pm:
I suppose I understand why people are upset that it takes so long. But I completely dismiss any notion that it’s on purpose. If @trooper is correct, ISP has 25 people to do this job. If you have 30 days to process what they believe are 400,000 applications that’s more than 500 per day per person. That’s obviously not remotely possible. This program is stuck in the same rut as all other state programs in that there are not enough people to do the work. This program hasn’t been singled out for some sinister reason. You need to fight with the GA to fund more positions (or at least fund temporary staff) to get through this initial glut of applications.
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 1:47 pm:
==The ISP is doing a fine job throttling the number of potential carry license applicants by slow-walking the approval process for instructors.==
It’s always a conspiracy isn’t it John. They are out to get all of you.
- Logic not emotion - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 1:48 pm:
@Word:
“I’m sure Todd, Phelps and the boys saw this coming.” Yes. I expect they did. That is why the original bill had language to address this issue.
“…It would have been a tougher sell if there had been discussion as to what it would cost in new hires to implement the law efficiently.” Really? Let me help with some basic math… 400,000 anticipated permits at $150 each equals $60,000,000. If the necessary staffing for this costs more than $5,000,000 per year; they need a system change. Exclude the initial start up costs for hardware and software (which shouldn’t be over half the anticipated revenues) and it’ll could go down in history as one of the best financial moves this state has made in a long time and all by recognizing people’s rights while political leadership fought it all the way… Amazing!
- Logic not emotion - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 1:51 pm:
I think the state needs to seriously revisit whether the FOID card serves any useful purpose. Obviously the state is not complying with its obligations to issue them in a timely manner. Obviously, the license to carry permits will take some time. Scrap the FOID. Use those staff for the carry permit processing. Bank some funds to upgrade the systems for this and other stuff at ISP.
- Mason born - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 1:51 pm:
@ Demo
Pretty sure trooper meant 25 to handle foids not the CCW permits.
- RonOglesby - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 1:56 pm:
What the article fails to mention is that the ISP is complete violation of the FOID law itself. There is no punishment, no teeth at all.
So a legal gun owner is suddenly illegally because he gave only 6 weeks to renew his FOID and the State takes 8 or 10 or 12 weeks, that silly gun owner COULD be arrested for not having a valid FOID card but the ISP can simply ignore the law as long as it wants without sanction.
That to me is a problem. either the state follows the law or stop requiring the people to follow the exact same law they are in violation of.
- wordslinger - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 2:02 pm:
The thing is, LNE, you need an appropriation to hire staff or upgrade systems. That’s only logical, isn’t it?
- RonOglesby - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 2:09 pm:
@Word,
I think you are partially correct. the state is not interested in staffing the FOID section properly. Why should they? there is no penalty for it taking 110 days vs 30? and any anti-gun legislators are fine with it taking longer to get a FOID.
The problem will be once the FOID lawsuits come up and the state is slammed there. WE think the UUW/AUUW suits were nice for otherwise law abiding folks. Wait till the States Attorneys have to start dropping cases against folks that didnt have a FOID.
- dupage dan - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 2:12 pm:
So, what comes first - collecting the fees to process the CC permits or the hiring of the staff needed to process said permits?
- Stones - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 2:23 pm:
A few Fingerprint Technicians were hired to help with the workload processing but part of the issue is that the AFIS system is reaching capacity and needs to be upgraded. These were all issues that existed prior to conceal carry but obviously were exacerbated when the law went into effect.
- Logic not emotion - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 2:37 pm:
@Word: Appropriation? Yep. You’re right. It’s not as if this was brought up at the very last second of the session though. It doesn’t speak well of the budget preparation if both revenues and expenses weren’t included.
@Stones: Yes. I think this part of an argument that pro-LTC people have made in the past was that fees from LTC applications could be used to update / upgrade the system.
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 2:39 pm:
==Pretty sure trooper meant 25 to handle foids not the CCW permits. ==
Do you know how many people that have or will be hiring for CCW? I would be surprised if the number was that different, but maybe I’m wrong.
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 2:40 pm:
As far as headcount goes, the state has artificial headcount caps for all agencies that are based on nothing more than essentially throwing a dart at a board at a point in time and saying that’s how many people you get. It’s quite a sophisticated system.
- Todd - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 2:43 pm:
D- I disagree.
The ISP had the FOID audit. and still not much has changed on the processing time. I don’t blame ISP, I blame the Governor for an intentional understaffing as a way to try and squeeze a fee hike out of gun owners.
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 2:55 pm:
@Todd:
Maybe. But I also think people really should consider (and I’m not making excuses, just an observation) that this is a problem in all agencies. Do more with less, don’t ya know.
- Todd - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 3:07 pm:
D — I recognise that ALL agencies have a staffing problem. Just seems that after an auditor general’s report and a couple of court decisions on the right to bear arms, you would think they would respect it.
Or maybe its better off to go back to court and win, so the STATE complies and has to push more money into FOID by court order, or trash the whole thing.
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 3:13 pm:
==Just seems that after an auditor general’s report and a couple of court decisions on the right to bear arms, you would think they would respect it. ==
Auditor General reports don’t mean too much to the headcount Gods. I’d hang your hat on the court cases. Even then I’m not sure the headcount Gods care. If I were a betting man you will have to spend more money on lawyers. It’s like the little kid you tell not to do something but he does something else because you specifically didn’t cover that in your admonition to him (meaning there was no “hire more staff” in the court decision). I’m being silly, of course, but not as silly as you might think.
- RonOglesby - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 3:19 pm:
We wont have to worry about head count once a court says if the state doesn’t have to abide by the FOID law, people can’t be charged under said law.
- Pacman - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 3:24 pm:
Here’s an article from the SJR in yesterdays paper;
http://www.sj-r.com/top-stories/x1868844668/State-police-expect-surge-in-permit-requests?zc_p=1
The article states the ISP has posted 65 jobs to process permit apps and expects to post an additional 30 jobs. ISP also has posted a job notice on the work4illinois website seeking 23 contractual employees to do employee background checks. The wheels are moving, albeit slowly.
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 3:29 pm:
@Ron:
If that’s what you want to hang your hat on go for it. That’s kind of a backdoor way around FOID in general and I’m not sure that will fly. It might though.
I think we need a separate “gun” court since there seem to be so many lawsuits in that arena.
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 3:32 pm:
@Pacman:
Thanks. That’s still a monumental task for 95 people and that number probably isn’t realistic to handle the anticipated applications, at least initially.
- Mason born - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 3:45 pm:
@ Demo
I think your right in that 95 isn’t enough at least for the first year. I would be surprised if only 400k applied in the first year of course that means every 5 yrs the surge repeats.
- Logic not emotion - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 4:05 pm:
D: I think you’re right about headcount. One of the frustrating things is that only seems to apply to the key staff actually doing the work. It seems the departments can afford several high paid special deputies who report to the Gov’s office though…
- RonOglesby - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 4:10 pm:
@Demo,
You’re right, there is lots of court (non-criminal) going on right now with firearm laws in Illinois. As to hanging my hat on them… Its all we have to hang our hat on.
I mean do you believe there would be a CCW law right now if there hadn’t been a ruling from the 7th? I don’t. Or handguns allowed in Chicago if not for McDonald? Illinois, as a state, has proven to be very anti-gun. Its legislators for the most part with a house dominated by the chicago area lead that charge. And by anti-gun I mean to the point having unconstitutional laws, fighting for those laws all the way to SCOTUS and today not caring if the FOID office is staffed to comply with its own laws and requirements.
There has been no recourse other than the court system at this point.
I mean would you say the same to someone who sues the state over the unconstitutionality of same sex marriage bans (this coming from a SSM supporter)? Right now they have no other recourse right? and of course a court case helping them move a few lawmakers isnt a bad thing is it?
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 4:29 pm:
@Ron:
I wasn’t suggesting don’t use the courts. It was more of a snarky commentary on the state of the gun issue in our state - the fact that the court always has to be involved.
- RonOglesby - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 5:23 pm:
@Demo
Ahhh. got it. Yeah kinda sad. but it is what is! Kind of like our debt or other things that never seem to get resolved easily.
- Just The Way It Is One - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 7:11 pm:
The Quinn Administration had better pull it together on this issue, and with the choice Hunting Season upon us(which he’s almost undoubtedly clueless about)–that is a LOT of unhappy Voters, and he’d be a FOOL to underestimate the incredibly high number of both formal AND INformal Outdoorsmen/women in this State who love to fish and hunt (and soon, be in a position to at least arguably better protect themselves with a hidden handgun). If he doesn’t get on the stick on this iMMEdiately, there’ll be SEVERAL THOUsand lost votes to pay for it as a result…!
- Freezeup - Tuesday, Oct 1, 13 @ 9:58 pm:
I noticed my FOID was expired in April and had my renewal in 3-4 weeks. I was expecting longer but I have an unusual last name ( Freezeup)so maybe it’s easier to determine I’m not a felon.