* And the bludgeoning begins…
Forget cheese curds along Interstate 94 or speed traps designed to nab Illinois vacationers on the way to the North Woods.
Wisconsin thinks it has a new strategy to make a buck off of Illinois thanks to Gov. Quinn and the state Legislature’s backing of a 46-percent increase in corporate income taxes.
New Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, a Republican, launched an unprecedented blitz of the Chicago media Wednesday to woo tax-weary Illinois businesses into the Dairy State with his vision of two years of tax-free existence there if they move.
“I pulled out an old bumper sticker from the ‘80s when Tommy Thompson was governor that said, ‘Escape to Wisconsin.’ That was the tourism campaign back then. But that’s a message we’re sending now to employers in Illinois,” Walker told the Chicago Sun-Times in a phone interview.
Yet, there was not one mention [There was a brief mention, at the very bottom] in the article of Wisconsin’s much higher personal income tax rate. Yes, it starts at 4.6 percent, but that’s for single people making less than $10,070 a year. Make more than that and it’s 6.15 percent, up to about $20K in income. From there it ranges between 6.5 percent and a whopping 7.75 percent. For a lot of business owners, the personal rate is more important than the corporate rate because they don’t pay much or any of the corporate tax.
Our new corporate rate will be lower - 7 percent vs. 7.9 percent - but we also have that 2.5-point personal property replacement tax, which puts us higher. Still, Wisconsin has a state property tax.
…Adding… A great quote from the IMA…
“Wisconsin is not the mecca where everybody is going to be running off to,” predicted Illinois Manufacturers’ Association President Greg Baise. “The last time I looked, their climate is a lot s——- than ours.”
* Missouri? Really? Not…
If Gov. Pat Quinn signs the bill as expected, “this plan will undermine the state’s ability to attract new investment and business development, in particular relative to its lower-tax neighbors like Indiana and Missouri,” said Tax Foundation Staff Economist Kail Padgitt.
If you make more than $9,000 a year in Missouri, your tax rate is 6 percent. Our corporate tax rate will be higher, but it already is if you include the replacement tax.
Indiana will have a lower state income tax than us, but its counties are allowed to impose their own income taxes, and some of them are as high as 3 percentage points. Its corporate rate is currently 8.5 percent, plus those local rates. We’re still competitive.
* And then there’s this…
And some observers say the virulent reaction in the business community is somewhat overblown.
Economic development consultant Robert Weissbourd, president of RW Ventures LLC, said companies do not look solely at tax costs but at whether they get value for the costs, in the form of good roads, good police protection, a well-trained work force and the like.
“Chicago has had quite an attractive tax value proposition and it can stand to raise it a little bit,” he said. “I don’t think this is a total killer.” Still, the government needs to address inefficiencies and fragmentation in the way the state markets itself, he said.
* Highly misleading…
For a senior citizen with a base income of $25,000, the annual bill would grow from $660 to $1,100.
If that senior is living on a pension, he or she will pay zero state income taxes, as always.
* The first year of the tax increase’s impact will be lessened by the feds…
For many middle-income Illinois taxpayers, the reductions from the federal payroll tax cut may balance out the costs of the state tax increase, resulting in little immediate impact on withholding from paychecks. But the goal of the payroll tax reduction was to increase take-home pay and stimulate consumer spending, a benefit that Illinois taxpayers may not share in.
There’s also this to consider: The payroll tax windfall expires after this year, so in 2012 it will no longer cushion the blow of the state tax hike. That increase is to remain in full force through 2014 and then ratchet down in stages over the next decade, dropping to 3.75 percent in 2015 and then 3.25 percent in 2025 — still higher than the current rate.
* Also, keep in mind that after the 2014 gubernatorial campaign, much of the rate hikes will sunset…
the current 4.8 percent corporate rate would go to 7 percent until 2015, when it would drop to 5.25 percent. And in 2025, it would return to the current 4.8 percent.
Some don’t believe it…
As for the belief that legislators will let stand a requirement to draw back the increase by 1 1/4 percent within five years, Ellis calls that “hogwash.”
“If this increase isn’t even covering the deficit, there’s no way they’re going to allow a decrease. When was the last time you remember legislators cutting taxes?”
The 1983 temporary income tax hike was allowed to sunset.
* Roundup…
* Tribune: Here they are
* Cash-strapped taxpayers upset by decision to raise income tax
* Flider supports income tax increase during final day in office after campaigning against it
* Easier to tax than to cut
* Quinn vows quick signing of tax hike
* Budget bomb gets dropped in laps of taxpayers
* Residents say they will cope with income tax increase by cutting fun
* Tax hike is betrayal of taxpayers
* Central Illinois debates rising Illinois income tax
* Blaser: What’s with this tax hike?
* Tax hike concerns business owners
* Brown: Legislature not for the fainthearted
* State lawmakers cling to party lines in tax vote
- Just Observing - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 9:56 am:
It’s not simply the tax increase that irks so many people — it’s the tax increase with not substantial cuts in spending that causes a lot of people not to buy into this. And while I don’t always like the Illinois Policy Institute’s approach, for those that argue that there is nothing left to cut in this state, the IPI does a good job of highlighting ridiculous spending:
http://www.illinoispolicy.org/news/article.asp?ArticleSource=2105
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 9:59 am:
===it’s the tax increase with not substantial cuts in spending===
That’s a misnomer.
- just sayin' - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:02 am:
I love Matt Murphy and other Republicans running around now touting repeal.
Where was their alternative plan? If they don’t like taxes, what would they cut? Of course they never give any specifics and they had no counter plan. Wouldn’t it have been better to be proactive instead of reactive?
With a GOP that’s not serious and just trying to score political points, the Democrats had to take action. It’s too late now for Republicans to say it wasn’t the right action. You snooze you lose.
If Republicans in this state don’t care enough to get competent leaders on their side of the table, they should probably just shut up.
- Just Observing - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:03 am:
I mean — WITH OUT
- Free Ike Carrothers - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:03 am:
Rich, where are the substantial cuts in spending?
- Sue - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:07 am:
Rich- the real problem with what Quinn/Madigan/Cullerton did was not raising taxes to 5 percent- the problem is that facing the fiscal crisis and having the best excuse they will ever have, they didn’t attack expeditures sufficiently so that we can begin to address the longer term deficit- given the funding level of the state pension systems(and their mediocre returns) along with the exploding costs associated with public employee health care(which isn’t protected by the constitution)Illinois will continue to have huge deficits as more people retire and fewer people contribute into the plans- As many politicos attest, you shouldn’t ever lose the opportunity presented when facing a crisis and our elected leadership has done just that- The new legislature has the opportunity to start cutting the budget but it won’t happen
- tubbfan - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:07 am:
Did I miss a link on CapFax to Greg Hinz’s editorial yesterday? Priceless
- bored now - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:08 am:
politicians (especially those that hail from the business community) tend to be idiots when they are thinking that they can lure businesses to their area. the company i owned with my brothers did move from one county to another, lured by a ten-year property tax holiday, and found it more troublesome than expected. we had valued employees (mostly single) who grumbled and a couple quit. our moving costs were much higher than expected, and we were only moving computers and office furniture. even though we built a wonderful facility (a planned expansion that would have happened anyway), and it turned out great, i can’t tell you how many corporate leaders who said AFTER WE MOVED, “i could have told you that,” when i complained about the unexpected costs in moving from one place to the next. over time, we did come out ahead but our up-front costs were just phenomenal and could have easily killed the business.
*real* business people know that. politicians somehow overlook it…
- publius - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:13 am:
who said what and how it happened is all inside baseball look at the big picture a democrat in a republican year didn’t promise big cuts he promised an income tax increase and we elected him and we have a tax increase the governor said it was needed and the people believed him and followed him sometimes adults make the system work
- Statewide - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:14 am:
The IPI website says they found $350 million in “wasteful” state spending. The budget deficit is something around $16 Billion. That’s Millions vs. Billions. Conservatives, please repeat that to yourselves until it sinks in. You can’t solve a multi-billion dollar deficit by simply saying something that feels good.
Similarly, the Pantagraph has an editorial lambasting the tax increase. Yet they quote no cuts which could balance the budget, even within this decade. It ends by simply saying: “Instead, we will urge the governor and lawmakers to focus on spending cuts, pension reform, workers compensation changes and more to show attitudes are changing and there’s hope for Illinois.”
Which of those things can actually be done, and how much do they amount to, and how soon?
The conservative chant of “no new taxes” is as wishful, ineffective, and wearisome as Cubs’ fans saying “Wait ’til next year.” (I like the Cubs, too, but it doesn’t make them winners. Just saying something over and over doesn’t make it true.)
- Bigtwich - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:15 am:
The Governor claims 3 billion in cuts since taking office. Here are some of the changes in the current year budget.
http://www2.illinois.gov/budget/Documents/FY2011%20Budget%20By%20Agency%20080210.pdf
- JN - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:17 am:
> where are the substantial cuts in spending?
Please propose $1B or more in tax cuts. Bonus points if you can find 5 Republican legislators that would back them up. Good luck.
- dave - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:19 am:
Rich, where are the substantial cuts in spending?
Medicaid reform. Pension reform. $3B in cuts to discretionary spending over the last two years.
Those are very substantial cuts.
- wordonthestreet - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:21 am:
I’m not one to complain much about taxes; I figure it’s the price we pay for all the government services on which we rely every day.
But there is “waste” in government that can be eliminated. Most of it these days is in contracts with private sector companies who get paid a LOT of money, perform poorly, then take the money and run, leaving no one behind with knowledge to manage their mess. We used to have some (certainly not all, but some) good managers in government. Chased most of them out, I fear. Too bad. We’ll probably cut the wrong stuff and keep the dopes that perpetuate this fiscal mess.
- Marty - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:21 am:
Rich, you get it a bit wrong–the current balance of economic activity between the states is based on the whole constellation of factors that go into location decisions. Illinois has now changed some of those factors, making it less attractive.
However, even so I think a lot of the rhetoric is overblown. Will some people and businesses move? I suppose. Will some businesses reassess investment options? Sure. Will people and businesses more aggrssively manage their state tax liability so that collections increase less than the rates suggest? Absolutely.
But the numbers involved will not cause a mass exodus of people or activity… the effect will be relatively small, maybe hard to separate from everything else going on in the economy.
- Shemp - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:25 am:
Say what you will about rate comparisons, but many of the surrounding states also offer better incentive packages. Ask downstate people how effective DCEO is in assisting some of the downstate regions with recruitment. We’ve seen firsthand how the jobs are indeed going elsewhere. Outside of Chicago (yes people do still live west of 39 and south of 80, we’re struggling to compete with our neighbors.
- Bring Back Boone's - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:27 am:
I’d like to see Boeing move it’s headquarters to Green Bay or Motorola to Indianapolis. Not gonna happen. People need to chill out.
Where I do agree with the angry mob is that the leaders didn’t really address the structural issues that have been crippling the state. There was no clear path here, just kind of status quo. If they’re really serious they need to do something to reform the two biggest aspects of the state’s budget- the unaffordable pension obligations and the insurmountable costs of medicaid/ all kids.
- GoldCoastConservative - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:27 am:
Rich,
I’m not sure how one can assert that “we’re still competitive? Illinois lost over 600,000 jobs over the last decade. We are #48 in job creation. And while our neighbors may have higher tax rates, they didn’t just hike theirs up by historic percentages. Theirs are standing pat while ours are going up.
- steve schnorf - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:27 am:
Sue, what’s your source on our pension systems’ low returns? I think generally they do pretty well–upper half, sometimes upper quartile.
Also, I thought you were leaving Illinois.
- Loop Lady - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:28 am:
Ia this the same Governor of WI who refuseed high speed rail money from the Feds…yeah, a very forward thinking, business savvy guy…BTW, Quinn attempted to grab this cash for IL, and last I heard, succeeded….
- Cassiopeia - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:32 am:
The 2% FICA payroll deduction will expire at the end of 2011 meaning that wage earners will see their take home go down because of the state tax increase in January 2012 and will then be good ammunition against the democrats whether they individually voted for it or not. Especially if they don’t get spending under control which every indication is that they won’t.
- WRMNpolitics - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:32 am:
As an accountant, I would first like to thank the legislature for passing the accountants full employment act, aka tax increase. The increase in tax rate was the easy way to affect revenue. The next step needs to be to revise the tax code to remove exemptions and tax breaks that effectively negate the increase for many individuals and businesses. Nothing is more maddening that having to pay taxes, while the guy next to you, with the same income, pays little if any due to favorable loopholes in the law. The sooner the legislature realizes this, the more palatable the increase becomes. Businesses will not move because of the increase but plans to expand or spend on capital items may be postponed or canceled because of it.
- Yellow Dog Democrat - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:32 am:
Noting the note to newbies, I’d just like to take a moment to acknowledge the extraordinary lengths that Rich goes to promote a vigorous yet informed and civil debate.
The message of the President last night was not just a message to Washington and the national media.
Illinois has been virtually paralyzed for the past several years by a rancor that I have not seen. Our state is in crisis, but instead of coming together to find common ground to solve our problems and promote the common good, too many have tried to leverage that crisis to score political points or advance their own private interests.
That’s been true not just of our political leaders, parties, or interest groups on both sides of the political aisle, but also our media outlets big and small. In that regard, Capitolfax stands out not just among websites but among all media outlets in trying to promote a civilized debate. We posters, not just the newbies but oftentimes the regulars, don’t always make that easy.
I’ve been guilty in the past, and I’m going to try to do a better job. Let me start by saying that whenever I’ve talked to voters who criticize politicians with broad brush strokes as selfish crooks, I’ve always been quick to respond that I’ve had the pleasure to work with rank-and-file lawmakers from both parties and both sides of the aisle, and I’ve found them to be genuinely good and decent people who only want to do what they think is right, even when I’ve disagreed with them.
This week while I was in Springfield, I took the time to say farewell to two Republicans with whom I’ve often disagreed but always enjoyed working with. I wish Representative Bassi and Representative Coulson well in whatever the future holds for them.
For those sworn in to the current General Assembly, on both sides of the aisle, I wish them good health and good luck.
I hope they’ll remember that while they may have their differences, they are separated only by an aisle, little more than three feet wide, and not a canyon.
- cassandra - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:33 am:
Well, there may not be an exodus of people or businesses (moving is expensive) but every single one of them will be blamed on the Democrats so they better get ready to defend their positions. Ditto any increases in the unemployment rate, increases in foreclosures, in bankruptcies, the weather…….be careful what you wish for, Dems. It may not be party time just yet.
Along the same vein, i thought the reaction to Todd Stroger’s sales tax hike was much more negative and prolonged than could reasonably be expected. He never really got over it. And, to be honest, I stopped noticing it almost immediately.
But apparently lots of people didn’t, judging by the rhetoric.
- soccermom - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:35 am:
Hey Schnorf —
I think the yield for SERS this past year was about 5.5%. I thought that was pretty low. By comparison, Calpers reported 13.3% for fy10
- Trusth Seeker - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:35 am:
Rich, simply looking at income tax comparisons is to simplistic when one makes decisions about taxes. We look at the total tax burden. Illinois has scored well overall because we have had low income and corporate tax burdens. With that changing our tax burden comparisons with other states will take a big hit and make us less attractive.
- DE - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:44 am:
Anyone really know why the Gaming Bill, SB 737, wasn’t called? If signed into law, backers estimated $1B lump sum to the state. Rep. Lang promised the horse people at 3 pm it would be called that night. Now there’s no comment. Couldn’t the tax increase have been a lower % if the state had the $1B in the bank?
- Responsa - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:46 am:
==But the numbers involved will not cause a mass exodus of people or activity… the effect will be relatively small==
For most middle class families another $1000 a year to the state is not insignificant. For many it will mean $1000 less given to their church or charity, $1000 less to spend for an anniversary getaway downtown, restaurant meals and sports tickets, or $1000 less to apply to home repairs and maintenance. All of this impacts the local economy, private social services and businesses quite directly.
The bill is passed and what’s done is done. That debate is over. But to suggest it is not going to affect regular people’s lives, and businesses’ bottom lines and hiring in a very real way, is unseemly and callous spin.
- TwoFeetThick - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:47 am:
To those breathlessly going on about the lack of cuts, let’s review some numbers from COGFA’s budget summaries… The FY 2011 Enacted operating budget was $26,014,000,000. The FY 2009 Enacted operating budget was $28,311,000,000. Hmmm… sure looks like $2.3 billion in cuts over those two years to me. Put away your tired talking points and look it up.
- Yellow Dog Democrat - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 10:51 am:
This seems like an appropriate time to share a few facts from our good friends at Site Selection Magazine.
Despite all of the Doom and Gloom over the past year about what an awful place Illinois is to do business, Illinois ranked 16th in 2010 in its business climate.
Yes, the temporary increase in the corporate income tax will not be welcome news, but there are other factors to consider as well.
1. Todd Stroger has been replaced by Toni Preckwinkle, and sales taxes in Cook County are going down.
2. While the temporary take hike is not welcome news, certainty is. In fact, Illinois’ budgetary uncertainty was not only causing angst for the bond houses, but business owners. Now, they know what to expect, and for better or for worse, they can plan accordingly.
3. We are a step closer to eliminating the backlog of unpaid bills…an $8 billion infusion into our state’s economy. Remember that backlog of unpaid bills has caused an estimated 50,000 layoffs in Illinois.
4. There’s no denying that tax policy is an important factor in where businesses decide to locate, but there are other important factors as well. Taxes rank #2, but workforce skills ranks #1…to the degree closing the structural budget deficit enables us to strengthen our schools, adequately fund student aid and higher education, and strengthen job training partnerships with the private sector, it will be welcome news.
There’s alot of folks in Springfield and media outlets whose incomes depend on driving up hysteria and partisan rancor. I don’t have a crystal ball, but time will soon tell how employers react.
- frustrated GOP - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 11:01 am:
Perhaps the Illinois chamber of commerce needs to step up and start throwing darts at the taxes in neighboring states. Hey, remember Chamber staff members, Illinois losses business you lose members; and membership fees. We all know what happens to associations when membership drops. Staff get cut. So get on it and start promoting Illinois. Your job may depend on it.
- Loop Lady - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 11:10 am:
The IL Chamber is a tool for the Republican Party of IL…whatever gravitas the organization possessed has been usurped by its failure to be an objective voice for the business community in IL
- Deep South - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 11:15 am:
Hey Rich, you talked about tax rates in Missouri, Wisconsin and Indiana….What about Kentucky, oh, and Iowa?
- Tukas - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 11:34 am:
Check out the Governor’s web page. There is an are where you can nominate yourself to several committees.
Closer look at the job descriptions, they are mostly paid positions. There are several that I am sure Illinois could do without.
http://appointments.illinois.gov/appointmentsListing.cfm
- cermak_rd - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 11:38 am:
Shemp,
You’re right that outside of Chicago, areas don’t do as well in attracting business, but that would be true regardless. The economy has changed and cities that are global hubs and the smaller communities that are deeply connected with them are going to do better. As I look at the middle class jobs on offer around me, I see a lot of jobs that require a 4 year college degree or even graduate work. Modern manufacturing, for instance, is going to require far more technical skills than it once did. These kinds of skill sets tend not to be as densely on offer in non-metropolitan areas.
- wordslinger - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 11:44 am:
Love that Tribbie editorial board. Today’s entry is one for the ages. It begins:
–The nation’s laughing at us again.–
At first, I thought the New York Times had written another article about Trib. Co.’s middle-aged frat boy management and their workplace antics.
Or how they’ve eviscerated one of the nation’s great newspapers — the L.A. Times.
Or how they’ve devastated the strongest brand in radio — WGN — driving away hundreds of thousands of loyal listeners by tossing out beloved, long-time on-air talent and replacing them with a bunch of sawed-off Rush wannabes and the great Jim Laski (now gone).
Turns out they were talking about the tax increase.
The Tribbies then helpfully provide a list of all GA members who voted to take steps to pay the state’s bills. The Tribbies, of course, don’t bother with such things; they just hide from their creditors behind the robes of a federal bankruptcy court judge (while begging for court-approved management bonuses).
The list of legislators was probably leftover from when the Trib was plotting with Blago to run through the GA a scheme to pawn off the liability for decrepit Wrigley Field on Illinois taxpayers.
The edit could have been written by Blago, judging from his radio comments yesterday. Maybe he’s found work at the Trib edit board. After all, with Laski, the Trib’s been known to hire felonious public officials to be the voice of their company.
- Small Town Liberal - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 11:56 am:
- Closer look at the job descriptions, they are mostly paid positions. -
Are you nuts? Not many are paid. Some of them don’t even cover travel expenses.
- Tukas - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 12:27 pm:
“Are you nuts? Not many are paid. Some of them don’t even cover travel expenses. ”
Most of them do. Plus, you also expend money on all the paperwork and other support that goes into them. I would like to see how much THAT would come to.
- NormalRedefined - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 1:10 pm:
Deep South … You asked about Kentucky and, oh, Iowa? Here you go:
http://tefillinois.com/2010/08/11/state-by-state-income-tax-rates/
- Small Town Liberal - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 1:39 pm:
- Most of them do. -
Tukas, really, count them, they are not mostly paid. Some of them are also funded by private trusts, and many of them are important ways for business and public interests to team up to solve problems. I’m sure there are some paid positions that are largely cushy favor jobs, but not most.
- Fed up - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 1:41 pm:
Yellow dog dem,
Todd Stroger has been replaced by Toni Preckwinkle, and sales taxes in Cook County are going down.
Not so fast she has already the same as Quinn backed away from that commitmentand is saying it cant be done now maybe later. Good luck with that. It might just be another example of a tax and spend Dem saying anything to get elected.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 1:44 pm:
Fed up, as I pointed out months ago, Preckwinkle has been saying since before the primary that the tax would be phased out over time.
- Just Observing - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 2:21 pm:
For all those pointing out the cuts already made — IT’S NOT ENOUGH. We need to cut more — we cannot sustain this pace of spending. Your arguments are akin to somebody making $50,000 a year and spending $100,000 a year — and when s/he lowers their spending to $75,000 they claim what else can they do since they already cut $25,000. We need to cut local spending too — for instance we need to get rid of worthless Township government — if we reduce the overall tax burden on the local level there will be more room to play on the state level.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 2:22 pm:
===and when s/he lowers their spending to $75,000 they claim what else can they do since they already cut $25,000.===
I would assume they’d get another job or ask for a raise. Hence…
- wordonthestreet - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 2:40 pm:
I know it’s not an original thought, but perhaps worth stating again:
Understanding that most folks would rather eat nails than pay a few dollars more to assure essential public services, exactly where do they see all this waste and abuse that should be cut? If someone (Brady?) has this info and is not sharing it, shame on them.
- Fed up - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 2:41 pm:
Rich all I was stating was that YDD claimed sales taxes are going down now that Stroger is gone and Preckwinkle is in. That in fact is not happening. I stated she said maybe later, but no I dont believe it for a minute.
- Upstate - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 3:05 pm:
Preckwinkle said the Stroger sales tax would be gone by the end of her first term. We’ll know if she’s serious by the time she runs for re-election.
- steve schnorf - Thursday, Jan 13, 11 @ 9:41 pm:
Mom, SERS doesn’t manage any investments