151 Comments - soccermom - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:31 am: I don’t know why this bothers me so much, but it really annoys me that these kids are being called a “flash mob.” they were no such thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_mob Now, if the kids had attacked the tourists with pillows… - NIref - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:39 am: Yep, because a side arm is going to be truly effective against 12-24 people who sneak up behind you and have you on the ground before you can unholster. Thanks ISRA for another lesson in logical fallacies. - Logic not emotion - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:40 am: I had planned to attend a conference in Chicago next week. I cancelled it yesterday. My wife had planned to attend a conference in Chicago in August. After discussing the violence and lack of self defense options in Chicago, we decided last night not to attend that conference either. Chicago needs to either get a handle on its violence problem or ensure people have feasible options to defend themselves or both. - grand old partisan - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:41 am: Rich, I think part of the point is that these youth mobs – or whatever you want to call them – would feel less emboldened if there was a possibility that their would-be victims might be armed. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:41 am: gop, if so, then they should say so. They didn’t. - aaronsinger - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:43 am: I love scoring cheap political points by using fear and scare tactics. - lincoln's beard - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:44 am: I like my iPad, but I’m not sure I like it enough to shoot somebody over it. - Montrose - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:44 am: “Logic not emotion” is such an ironic name for you. Logic says that the chances of you getting attacked while visiting Chicago are next to none. Logic says that if you are attacked by close 20 all of the sudden, a gun won’t do you much good. Logic says that taking a few very bad events and blowing them up to an epidemic that warrants the cancellation of trips does not make sense. The ISRA should be ashamed of itself. That fear mongering they are doing to advance their agenda is repugnant. - Small Town Liberal - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:46 am: - After discussing the violence and lack of self defense options in Chicago, we decided last night not to attend that conference either. - Man, are the ISRA and the rest of you just a bunch of scaredy cats? I grew up in Beardstown, IL and lived in central IL for 27 years. At what point did I miss the meeting about how tough you have to be to walk the mean streets of Chicago without a gun? I always thought downstaters were supposed to be the tough guys, I hope my friends aren’t terrified of me when I go back for my high school reunions. - Way Way Down Here - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:46 am: ===Yep, because a side arm is going to be truly effective against 12-24 people who sneak up behind you and have you on the ground before you can unholster. . .=== And then instead of smart phones and Ipods they can take loaded weapons. - Jasper - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:47 am: I was actually at the scene about the time this was taking place (8:30 or so, at Lake Shore Drive and Chicago). Saw a large group of “youths” acting in a very rowdy manner and moving toward LSD on the north side of Chicago. I could not tell exactly what was going on. I’m not pro-gun generally, but I have to say that with the the people approaching, pulling a weapon may have made a difference. - Jimmy CrackCorn - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:47 am: =This warning was issued in response to a recent dramatic upswing in violent crime in the windy city.= The mob action is certainly a startling development, but the media sensationalism has been ridiculous. Also I know facts should never get in the way of a propaganda opportunity, but crime is down… if anyone cares “Chicago residents can breathe a little easier after seeing the latest crime figures. Overall and violent crime in Chicago was down for the 29th consecutive month, according to preliminary monthly crime statistics for the month of May. Total crime in the city fell 5.9 percent compared to the numbers through May 2010, according to a police press release…. The most impressive drop in May’s crime statistics was homicide. Murder rates in the city fell by 16.3 percent. There were 27 fewer homicides this year than the same period in 2010, police said. More than half of the Chicago’s 25 police districts reported decreases in their homicide numbers.” Source: http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Chicago-Police-Numbers-Show-Violent-Crime-is-Down-123216828.html#ixzz1ObZSMJKT - bored now - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:47 am: what can we do to encourage the gun nuts to boycott chicago? i know i feel *much* safer knowing that a bunch of people totting guns looking for trouble (especially if they are frequently our terrific bars) are going elsewhere… - M - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:48 am: This sort of behavior out of the ISRA should surprise no one. Nor should the missleading information or the twisted logic they put forth in their release. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:49 am: ===but I have to say that with the the people approaching, pulling a weapon may have made a difference. === So, when a large group of young black males approach, you’d want people to draw a weapon? That’s a recipe for instant disaster. - Johnny USA - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:49 am: I think turning Michigan Avenue into a wild west shooting gallery would be far more detrimental to Chicago’s image as a tourist destination. I’ll take the muggings and flash mobs, thank you very much. - Lil Enchilada - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:50 am: A “good kid” would NEVER have done something like this. - Realist - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:51 am: It would be legal to shoot the attackers, even though it likely would not come to that, because there would be a reasonable belief that your life is in danger. If it did come to that, you wouldn’t have to shoot 12-24 of them, as soon as a shot is fired they would all flee. Also, it wouldn’t have to be the person being attacked who is armed, if there were 1 or more witnesses who see the attack and draw their weapons they could diffuse the attack. I would definitely shoot someone to save my personal property, I don’t value the life of a criminal. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:52 am: ===as soon as a shot is fired they would all flee.=== Or they’d grab the gun. - grand old partisan - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:52 am: Rich - they didn’t because this is a member alert, not a white paper or letter to the editor. The people recieving this message already understand how concealed carry acts as a deterrent. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:53 am: ===I would definitely shoot someone to save my personal property=== You’d shoot an unarmed person to save your iPad? You’d probably end up in prison for that. - aaronsinger - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:53 am: “It would be legal to shoot the attackers, even though it likely would not come to that, because there would be a reasonable belief that your life is in danger. If it did come to that, you wouldn’t have to shoot 12-24 of them, as soon as a shot is fired they would all flee. Also, it wouldn’t have to be the person being attacked who is armed, if there were 1 or more witnesses who see the attack and draw their weapons they could diffuse the attack. I would definitely shoot someone to save my personal property, I don’t value the life of a criminal. ” Say, you misesd? Say, you didn’t see them until they ran up to you within point blank range? You don’t see how many people walking around with guns near Michigan Ave., could end up being a bad thing? - grand old partisan - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:54 am: “I think turning Michigan Avenue into a wild west shooting gallery would be far more detrimental to Chicago’s image as a tourist destination.” Johnny - 48 other states allowed some form of legal carry, and none of them are home to any “wild west shooting galleries.” Why do you assume Illinois would be different?? - mokenavince - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:58 am: This is police matter and I think the Chicago cops will handle it. McCarthy is not going to let some punks mess up our downtown. - Montrose - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:58 am: *Sanctuary city; highest gas prices in the lower 48; high taxes; closed beaches - due to violence, even if open why go?; random and\or gang shootings…there are so many other reasons I no longer go to Chicago. Flash mobs would just be another addition. Afraid? No. Prudent? Yes. * Yet, close to 3 million people live here every day. We must truly be heros to make it through. - Jimmy CrackCorn - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:58 am: ==48 other states allowed some form of legal carry== Everyone on 5th Ave. in New York is walking around strapped, just ask Plaxico! - Jasper - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:58 am: Rich, the thought of conceal carry is deterrence. I was there. They did not choose people at random. They chose people who looked vunerable. And Johnny, walk through one of those crowds and then tell me how you feel. Conceal carry has not lead to the wild west in 48 other staes. No reason to think it would in Chicago. - Justice - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:00 am: Sounds like a big push by the ISRA for concealed carry…and in a city who opposed their efforts? Law enforcement can already tract text messages, tweets, and flash posting on the net. Fact is, they can take the people they caught and backtrack all their posts and where they were made and to whom. They can then track those connection points. I was born before the computer world existed, close to the smoke signal era, but grew up in the technology field. This is very doable so be careful what you text and to whom. As to assaults…carry skunk spray or bear mace. Long and short of it. They will get all those involved. Technology is great but it is also highly visible and stays in the system forever. - JL - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:01 am: Well, I hope all the ISRA members choose St Louis or Indianapolis as alternatives, because there is NEVER any crime in Missouri or Indiana. As far as I am concerned, Chicago is better off without all these Wyatt Earp wannabes. - Cincinnatus - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:08 am: - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 10:53 am: ===I would definitely shoot someone to save my personal property=== “You’d shoot an unarmed person to save your iPad? You’d probably end up in prison for that.” I’d take the chance. Two things are inviolate, my person and my property. Respect them both. The attitude that it is okay for a person to be assaulted (see also Jacobs/McCarter), heck, it’s only an iPad, has filtered down to these animals. The people who assault and rob think the police won’t catch them, and people won’t defend themselves. This is precisely the environment that they work in and which enables their actions. I think these “flash mobs’ will be an increasing trend in Chicago this year. I also expect flash mobs to start cropping up in the suburbs, too. This lawlessness will not end until we defend ourselves, and help defend our neighbors, when the events occur. The respect for person and property is lost in America. - Ok - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:09 am: Realist, I just have to say it is really effed-up that you would shoot to kill someone who stole your iPod. Really effed up. - Levois - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:09 am: “I like my iPad, but I’m not sure I like it enough to shoot somebody over it.” Now I can trust you with a gun! I like that answer! - Pyramid schemer - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:09 am: I understand that it can be legal to shoot someone who is threatening you or causing you harm. When is it legal to shoot someone who is threatening someone else you see on the street? Do you have to ensure that the person actually is threatened or feels threatened? Can you shoot away if you think you see someone is threatened? What’s the standard here in Illinois or in the safe concealed carry states? - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:11 am: ===What’s the standard here in Illinois=== The standard here, as I understand it, is that if you shoot somebody who has a baseball in his hand, you’re gonna be charged. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:12 am: ===The attitude that it is okay for a person to be assaulted (see also Jacobs/McCarter)=== OK, that’s just ridiculous. Now it’s ok for McCarter to have shot Mike Jacobs? - bored now - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:12 am: == The respect for person and property is lost in America. == aahh, the lament of a plantation owner… - Ryan from Carrollton - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:13 am: It never ceases to amaze me how there are usually two types of people present during a mugging, the mugger and the victim. - Small Town Liberal - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:13 am: - This lawlessness will not end until we defend ourselves - It won’t end then, either. Preventing violence starts with education and providing opportunities to these “animals” you speak of. Shooting them doesn’t fix the problem. - bored now - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:14 am: btw, i’m not suggesting that Cincinnatus was aware that his lament had been used before, merely acknowledging that others voiced this concern more than 120 years ago… - Montrose - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:15 am: I am now advocating that in addition to any other caveats in a concealed carry law in Illinois, only those people that pledge not to shoot someone because they want your phone will be allowed to have a permit. Really? We are arguing that shooting someone to protect your wallet/phone/etc. is a right? Can we please get a little perspective? - Liberal - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:18 am: The problem is we need to close all prisons and spend more money on social programs. - Loop Lady - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:20 am: I have a friend who is moving back to the western suburbs after living in Streeterville for several yeas and witnessing this flash mob business twice…this nuttiness will definitely hurt retail/restaurant business in the touristy North MI Ave corridor…Emanuel and his new police commander need to put an end to this terrorism ASAP… - aaronsinger - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:24 am: @Vitaman, I’ve read that blog and the comments on it. They often trade in fear, conspiracy theories, class and race based warfare, and other nonsense. I take nothing seriously there. - Yellow Dog Democrat - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:24 am: Perspectives and Youth Connections are both charter public schools. Carver is actually a military academy, not a vocational school, unless I’m wrong. Not sure what this says about school reform in Chicago — traditional public school students know not to get caught? — but its not good. - Jasper - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:26 am: One note on this — people keep saying it is about property. When you see the mob like that walking towards you, the least of your concerns is losing your phone or wallet. Instead, the main concern is “these people are going to jump me and beat me to bloody mess.” So at least for me, it would not be about defending the wallet. I’m much more concerned about my head not being left on the sidewalk. - Logic not emotion - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:27 am: @ Montrose: Odds of getting attacked may be low; but they are lower in other cities which respect the second amendment and are more desirable to visit anyway. STL: I’m not a scaredy cat or a Rambo wannabe. I have a black belt in martial arts and am relatively strong so I can defend myself better than most. I was raised right, have avoided fights, and realize people get hurt in fights. All that said, odds are that a gun will do you a lot more good against a gang like that than a room full of martial arts trophies. A firearm is the only realistic hope for most people against a mob. JL: Wife just got back from conference in St. Louis. We went to one in Indianapolis last year. Spent a lot of money in both places. We really liked Indy and we were each recruited to accept jobs and move there. We declined due to my family connections and our properties where we live; but we wouldn’t chose to live in Illinois if not for those. - Cincinnatus - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:28 am: With each robbery, there is the implicit threat of violence, “Gimme your wallet.” There is an “Or else,” there to, or we’d be walking down the street handing our property over to others no questions asked. It is that inherent threat, the “Or, else,” that gives people the right to protect themselves, and if they feel physically threatened, with violent force. Only people who are comfortable with redistributing wealth can be comfortable with allowing animals to attack, rob and otherwise infringe on individuals who have decided nothing more than to visit the City to catch a show, or take a dip in the lake. I support STL’s call for education, perhaps in addition to the normal kumbaya curriculum, and education in the law, a warning can be included that you can get shot and killed by an armed victim, who carries a weapon legally. I’d be all for it. Until those against a citizen’s right to protect himself come up with a bullet-proof way to protect the innocent victim, this victims should be allowed to use any means available to protect themselves, and yes, that means using bullets. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:31 am: ===Odds of getting attacked may be low; but they are lower in other cities which respect the second amendment and are more desirable to visit anyway.=== Your ideology has blinded you to facts. You need to either go look up some facts or change your screen name, please. - Deep South - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:33 am: Proponents of concealed carry need to find new leadership. The people putting out this kind of nonsense are doing their cause no favors. Same with the over-the-top rhetoric favored by the ISRA. Preaching to the choir with these kinds of tactics ain’t gonna win converts. But I guess it does keep the choir all fired up. - Yellow Dog Democrat - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:34 am: Unless I’m mistaken, ISRA members have been avoiding Chicago like Gomorrah for a long time any way. This “member alert” was a smartly crafted poke in Rahm Emanuel’s chest. Frankly, instead of talking about armed “vigilantes” firing shots at unarmed “mobs”, we’d be better off addressing the teen unemployment rate, which is somewhere around 25% statewide. - Deep South - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:35 am: ===Only people who are comfortable with redistributing wealth can be comfortable with allowing animals to attack=== Geez, Cincy, that’s one of the most idiotic comments you’ve ever posted. - TwoFeetThick - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:35 am: Those asking when you can use force and how much force you can use should refer to the following sections of the Criminal Code: 720 ILCS 5/7-1. Use of force in defense of person. 720 ILCS 5/7-2. Use of force in defense of dwelling. 720 ILCS 5/7-3. Use of force in defense of other property. You can look these up here: www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs.asp - Montrose - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:38 am: @Logic not emotion # of aggravated assaults per 1,000 in 2009 St. Louis - 11.93 (#2) Indianpolis - 6.48 (#13) Chicago - 5.52 (#23) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate Again, I love the irony of the name. - JL - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:40 am: @Logic Not Emotion, here is some interesting reading http://tinyurl.com/37zkubu and http://tinyurl.com/39gmdgq While you may like that the cities have looser gun laws, there is no logic or fact behind your arguments that Chicago is a more dangerous place for you or your wife. - Judgment Day - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:41 am: “Well, I hope all the ISRA members choose St Louis or Indianapolis as alternatives, because there is NEVER any crime in Missouri or Indiana. As far as I am concerned, Chicago is better off without all these Wyatt Earp wannabes.” Missing the point. This is all about presenting the City of Chicago as a destination to individuals who would otherwise visit Chicago, for business and/or pleasure. Remember back a few years ago when Greater Miami-Dade County has sensationalized stories about foreign tourists who were assaulted and murdered, and the drastic effects on foreign tourism those few, limited events had. It was brutal for the local business community. Concealed Carry and what the ISRA spouts off on isn’t the real issue here. The real issue is what the City of Chicago and Cook County are going to do about finding a way to counter this entire situation, because otherwise the City might as well cancel all their tourism promotion spending and save themselves some money, because fairly or otherwise, the perception will be the Chicago isn’t safe for tourism. - Jasper - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:42 am: “Frankly, instead of talking about armed “vigilantes” firing shots at unarmed “mobs”, we’d be better off addressing the teen unemployment rate, which is somewhere around 25% statewide.” Those poor kids, FORCED into beating up an old man. He should have known better than to have worked hard to get nice stuff. Others don’t have the same stuff. NOT FAIR! Right, Yellow Dog? Great to see people on the far left more concerned with offenders than victims. - Montrose - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:45 am: “Those poor kids, FORCED into beating up an old man. He should have known better than to have worked hard to get nice stuff. Others don’t have the same stuff. NOT FAIR! Right, Yellow Dog? Great to see people on the far left more concerned with offenders than victims.” We can actually try to solve the problem and keep folks from turning to crime in the first place, or we can just arm to the teeth so we can shoot people that come near us. I like option number one, personally. - Small Town Liberal - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:46 am: - Great to see people on the far left more concerned with offenders than victims. - Great to see that people on the far right can’t make real arguments. It doesn’t take a genius or a liberal to understand that if more teens are employed, less teens are out committing crimes. I guess it’s a little over your head though… - dave - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:46 am: They seem to be in support of concealed carry and they think the media is hiding this stuff. Yea… I didn’t see any the articles or stories on the so called “flash mobs.” Wait… huh? - Anonymous - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:47 am: - Montrose - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:15 am: I am now advocating that in addition to any other caveats in a concealed carry law in Illinois, only those people that pledge not to shoot someone because they want your phone will be allowed to have a permit. Really? We are arguing that shooting someone to protect your wallet/phone/etc. is a right? Can we please get a little perspective? ———— No, we’re arguing that shooting someone to prevent them from assaulting you and possibly severely injuring or killing you is basic self-defense. Do you think the mobs just go up to people and politely ask them for their iPhones? They knock their victim down, beat the living daylights out of them, and then take their property. From the description of the assaults, it sounds like they do it for the thrill of it more than they do it to steal property. After all, how do you split a few stolen iPhones among 15-20 members of the mob? - dupage dan - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:47 am: When the mob approaches in a menacing manner, do we know that they are only after the iPod? Jasper makes a good point - the mob identifies those who look vulnerable. Pretty standard stuff when you are downtown - be aware of your surroundings, get the ear buds out of your ears, don’t be alone if you can help it. Being armed is a part of that as well. An armed person will feel less vulnerable and will, as a result, appear less vulnerable. I question the idea that a group of young miscreants armed with nothing more than a baseball bat would turn on a person, who pulls a gun and shoots it at the mob, and try to take the gun away - there is just as much liklihood that they would all scatter and run away as fast as they can. Since I can’t look into the mind of another person, I can’t possible know what their intent it. “Hey, just give them the iPod and they’ll leave” does not sound like a winning strategy to me. A couple of incidents where the “flash mob” is met with armed resistance may, as Jasper suggests, be enough to discourage the participants. If they get what they want with little repercussions or resistance - that hardly seems like a deterrent to me. - soccermom - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:49 am: If Chicagoans starting shooting people who are holding baseballs and causing emotional distress and anxiety, I sure wouldn’t want to be a member of the Chicago Cubs…. - Downstate Illinois - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:51 am: Rich, someone coming at you with a baseball bat is carrying a deadly weapon. Anyone would have the right to use whatever force necessary to stop him. Someone coming at you with a knife from 15 feet away is fair game as well. Ask a cop just how quickly a knife can be thrown. I might not fight you to save an IPad, but if I was with someone for whom I had responsibility, that would be different, particularly if I thought their life might be in danger. That’s a man’s responsibility. Police do not exist to protect us as individuals. They protect the public. It’s our responsibility to protect ourselves. - Phineas J. Whoopee - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:51 am: I just got done reading this story at lunch and thinking, this is the poster child issue for concealed carry and here the ISRA is all over it. Good for them-they seem to be on their game. - Raging Against the Tide - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:51 am: Facts are useful things. With thanks to TwoFeetThick for posting the link, here are the germane sections: CRIMINAL OFFENSES (720 ILCS 5/) Criminal Code of 1961. (720 ILCS 5/Art. 7 heading) ARTICLE 7. JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE; EXONERATION (720 ILCS 5/7‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 7‑1) Sec. 7‑1. Use of force in defense of person. (a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony. (b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of “aggressor” set forth in Section 7‑4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct. (Source: P.A. 93‑832, eff. 7‑28‑04.) (720 ILCS 5/7‑2) (from Ch. 38, par. 7‑2) Sec. 7‑2. Use of force in defense of dwelling. (a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other’s unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if: (1) The entry is made or attempted in a violent, riotous, or tumultuous manner, and he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent an assault upon, or offer of personal violence to, him or another then in the dwelling, or (2) He reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling. (b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of “aggressor” set forth in Section 7‑4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct. (Source: P.A. 93‑832, eff. 7‑28‑04.) (720 ILCS 5/7‑3) (from Ch. 38, par. 7‑3) Sec. 7‑3. Use of force in defense of other property. (a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other’s trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with either real property (other than a dwelling) or personal property, lawfully in his possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his immediate family or household or of a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. (b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of “aggressor” set forth in Section 7‑4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct. (Source: P.A. 93‑832, eff. 7‑28‑04.) (720 ILCS 5/7‑4) (from Ch. 38, par. 7‑4) Sec. 7‑4. Use of force by aggressor. The justification described in the preceding Sections of this Article is not available to a person who: (a) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or (b) Initially provokes the use of force against himself, with the intent to use such force as an excuse to inflict bodily harm upon the assailant; or (c) Otherwise initially provokes the use of force against himself, unless: (1) Such force is so great that he reasonably believes that he is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, and that he has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or (2) In good faith, he withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force. (Source: Laws 1961, p. 1983.) - Cincinnatus - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:52 am: STL, You might as well say that if we had a no-pedestrian zone in Chicago, there wouldn’t be problems. It is not society’s fault that an individual (or group of individuals) make a decision to assault another individual. I support education. I believe in job growth. But those items are diversions from the fact a roving band of youtz (H/T Joe Pesci) decided to assault people, and are being prohibited by the government from legally defending themselves. - Fed up - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:52 am: If 15 to 20 people are attacking you. Then death or great bodily harm are a real posibility. Remember the video of the Fenger HS student. People get beat to death. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:54 am: –I think these “flash mobs’ will be an increasing trend in Chicago this year.– Why’s that? And look up the definition of the word “think” before you answer. Really weak funder pitch, Todd. You bragged all session long that you had the votes, then blamed it on lame-duck Daley when you came up short. I’m guessing that if you ever passed conceal carry, your fundraising would dry up. Imagine that. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:56 am: wordslinger, Todd’s with the NRA. ISRA is Pearson. - Boone Logan Square - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:56 am: I for one feel safer knowing gun-toting racists won’t spend leisure time in Chicago. - TwoFeetThick - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:56 am: Thanks, Raging Against the Tide. Trying to post the full text was too much with a Blackberry. - John Bambenek - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 11:58 am: Boone- Yup, anyone who wants a concealed carry card MUST be Klan, by defintion. - Boone Logan Square - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:03 pm: Yes, the description of hordes of urban youths “savagely” beating people has no racist connotations at all. Uh huh. - Phineas J. Whoopee - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:04 pm: ====Yep, because a side arm is going to be truly effective against 12-24 people who sneak up behind you and have you on the ground before you can unholster.=== I’m pretty sure with 12 to 24 of these morons wandering the neighborhood they are not sneaking up on anyone. More like a stalking wolf pack. Another words, a Glock 26 with a 33 round clip emptied into the mob by a trained shooter would deter quite nicely. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:06 pm: Rich, then, through you, my apologies to Todd. - Cincinnatus - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:07 pm: Boone, Perhaps you would like to take a stab at describing the people who participated in the assaults. We’ll use your verbiage from then on… - Boone Logan Square - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:13 pm: Cincinnatus, You don’t see race-baiting in a fundraising pitch specifically designed to heighten fears of urban youth? With a strong implication that shooting kids is a good idea? - soccermom - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:14 pm: Oh, for goodness’ sake. Can anyone think of a reason why it would be a bad idea to start emptying the clip of your Glock 26 into groups of teenagers wandering in crowded areas? Anyone at all? - Yellow Dog Democrat - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:15 pm: @Jasper - Unemployed teenagers get in to trouble in the summer. That’s what they do. The only difference between these stories and what happens every day in towns throughout Illinois is that USUALLY the teenagers are beating up younger kids and taking their stuff. But, the target is always someone they perceive as more vulnerable. And when there are 20 of you, that’s just about everybody. More police foot patrols is the immediate answer, but the long term solution is much more complicated, because the kids will just move from Streeterville to Lincoln Park, or wherever there is a Red Line stop. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:16 pm: soccermom has a point. If we ever do get concealed carry here, I really hope some of y’all are denied permits. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:16 pm: It’s a fundraising pitch people. Everybody calm down. I thought we were supposed to be informed insiders? These young punks are giving ISRA a perfect hook for their issue, and everyone here is playing along in their roles like regular joes. Unless you want to send a check so Todd can get paid to try CC again next year, ignore this and move along. Like most political FR pitches, this one pushes all of the easy buttons and requires no difficult thinking. It’s instinct, herd mentality stuff. The ISRA e-mail will have no impact on Chicago tourism, no impact on crime and won’t change a single vote. It might raise some money though, and if it does, it was successful. The question for this blog audience is, how much will ISRA need to raise to defend all of the Suburban GOP members who voted for CC last time? Given the new districts, I think we’ll see a lot of gun images in mailboxes. So, what have we learned? If you think Chicago is overrun by young criminal gangs and we need CC to protect ourselves, send ISRA a check. If you think putting guns into this volatile mix makes things worse, send your check to ICAHV. - John Bambenek - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:19 pm: 47th Ward- I don’t think any of the above, so I’ll just spend my money on scotch. Fair? - Walter Mitty - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:27 pm: live close to the areas in question. Rifle nuts are right to raise concern about the problem, dead wrong (ahem)about the solution. Suggestions: Use common sense. I’ve seen these groups on the subway, @ Chicago Ave. etc. If they’re there, you can’t miss them. So, if you see loud, obnoxious behavior-youths-dont draw attention to yourself, all valuables NOT out, try not to be separated from other people out (yes, this is more difficult on the lakefront if you are alone-dont be there after dark) Yes, its a problem. The solution is not either or. YDD is correct about the lack of youth employment. Law Enforcement is aware and working on the problem. Chicago Police can always be found now in these “hot” spots. Allowing everyone to carry firearms is not the solution. As a lifeling resident, frankly, I’m glad a bunch of trigger happy yahoos from who knows where will avoid Chicago. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:32 pm: More than fair, thanks John. “Everybody’s got to believe in something. I believe I’ll have another beer.” - Raging Against the Tide - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:39 pm: John Bombenek — I can’t speak for 47th Ward but so long as it’s a respectable single malt, you’ll get no argument from me. (By the way, a friend just returned from a stint in London with a bottle of Aberfeldy 21-year-old. Don’t miss tasting it if you have the opportunity.) - PublicServant - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:49 pm: ** (By the way, a friend just returned from a stint in London with a bottle of Aberfeldy 21-year-old. Don’t miss tasting it if you have the opportunity.) ** I wouldn’t wander around downtown with it. In fact, I don’t think you’d make it through Kenilworth either. - Yellow Dog Democrat - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:53 pm: === As a lifeling resident, frankly, I’m glad a bunch of trigger happy yahoos from who knows where will avoid Chicago. === Ditto. My dad used to tell the tale of a union buddy of his who traveled once to D.C. to lobby Congress. They were on their way in to the Capitol when my dad learned his pal was carrying a pistol because he’d heard D.C. wasn’t safe. - soccermom - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 12:58 pm: PublicServant — I am now having visions of wandering bands of John Cheever wannabes, running wild through the mean streets of Kenilworth in search of premium-brand liquors. - Phineas J. Whoopee - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:00 pm: I guess what makes all the “trigger happy yahoos” disgusted is all the lily livered cowards who would rather not go out at night and not draw attention to themselves and let the criminals run their lives. If we don’t get them jobs we deserve to get our heads kicked in? Sorry for being mean, but I don’t have much patience for enablers. They have destroyed their own neighborhoods and terrorized their neighbors. Now, the gangs have a planned move toward more prosperous areas using increased violence. The only jobs they deserve is making license plates. - hammer - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:03 pm: Anyone involved in these sort of actions is not a “good kid”. There’s obviously a severe lack of judgment. Prosecute the one’s you catch to the fullest then lean on them for the rest (or access to the central command). More plainclothes patrol downtown and as you catch mob members go back to their communities and make it clear that behavior won’t be tolerated. This is tough for me because I’m worried that this’ll lead to either a de facto criminalization of young black men downtown or a more restricted lakefront where I can’t have a beer on the water because in an effort to not profile law enforcement takes away all of our fun. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:04 pm: Everyone should be so lucky as to have a Soccermom. After going upside these young men’s heads (or unloading our conceal-carry clip), we have a couple of choices: put them in jail, or put them to work. As a country, we spend (or borrow) $10 billion a month to send our young men and women to die to protect Europe’s heroin dealers in Afghanistan. That’s one way to go, but it ain’t no way to live. We could spend a lot less and do a lot more right here at home. From “Freedom from Fear: The American People in Depression and War, 1929-1945.” –During the time of the CCC, volunteers planted nearly 3 billion trees to help reforest America, constructed more than 800 parks nationwide and upgraded most state parks, updated forest fire fighting methods, and built a network of service buildings and public roadways in remote areas. –By the time it expired in 1942, it had put more than three million idle youngsters to work at a wage of thirty dollars a month, twenty five of which they were required to send home to their families.– Seriously, isn’t this something everyone can get behind? It just makes so much sense. No ideology, no partisanship, just idle youth at productive work. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:08 pm: Phineas, how would you know what Chicagoans do? You live in McLean County. - Grandson of Man - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:09 pm: I became an ISRA member last year, when Chicago’s handgun ban was overturned. I support concealed carry, with proper training and registration. We all know how well the handgun ban worked in Chicago to control gun crimes–it worked about as well as the drug war is working. Only outlaws possessing firearms doesn’t sit well with me and many others. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:10 pm: GoM, the hole in your logic on this particular post is that none of those thugs were armed with anything more than a baseball. Basically, all you’ve done is recite a talking point. Try harder next time. - Phineas J. Whoopee - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:11 pm: Now your scaring me, I don’t know what a McClean County is. - Raging Against the Tide - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:12 pm: Soccermom, Fortunately the Kenilworth police have been trained to identify such ne’er-do-wells by the popped collars on their polo shirts and the absence of socks with their Topsiders. Happily, the Highland Park PD also will be operating an undercover sting operation near the gates of Ravinia so concertgoers won’t find themselves forcibly separated from their bottles of Sauvignon Blanc. - Jasper - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:27 pm: Hammer, Actually Streeterville/Mag Mile is pretty diverse. Unless there are 10 males with their pants riding low, there is not a de facto criminalization of anything. - PublicServant - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:32 pm: ** 10 males with their pants riding low ** You mean police officers on foot patrol? - Kevin Highland - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:32 pm: “none of those thugs were armed with anything more than a baseball.” I’m not sure I want to be clubbed upside the head numerous times with a baseball while others hold me done or pummel me with fists. Disparity of force is every bit as threatening as an obvious weapon. - 3rd Generation Chicago Native - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:33 pm: We can only hope this “flash mob” action does not go viral, to the City of Chicago, or any other city. Grand Ole Partisan does not know too many COPS. They will agree with all the comments that followed his “they should be armed” when dealing with a sudden “flash mob” you would have no time to fire, much less get your weapon out, and the chances of the “flash mob” getting your weapon far are high. It’s just best to give them what they want, you can replace material possessions but not your life. The City does not need to loose any tourist revenue. This hurts all the businesses and seasonal employees terribly. Logic not emotion is only one example of people cancelling a trip(s) due to this. And Loop Ladymoving out of the city are more examples of how this “flash mob” is going to hurt the city. And there will be many more making these same decisions. McCarthy has to prove himself on this one. This is a almost a new epidemic that will hurt tourism and residency. On the South Side we are having way too many shootings, and also a guy run over by a car on his bike. All of them way too close to my home for my comfort. I hope the “flash mobs” can be stopped before they head South. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:37 pm: –This is a almost a new epidemic that will hurt tourism and residency.– One incident is an “epidemic?” Send a check to the ISRA and you’ll feel better. - Small Town Liberal - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:38 pm: - rather not go out at night and not draw attention to themselves and let the criminals run their lives. - I go out at night. I’m not sure whether or not I draw attention to myself, does karaoke count? Heck, I even see lots of other people out at night, and some of them definitely draw attention to themselves. So who are these lily livered cowards, the ones who are deciding not to go to Chicago for vacation? - steve schnorf - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:40 pm: Rich, as is frequently the case on this issue, this discussion is becoming surreal. I think you get real enjoyment out of this. - Jasper - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:43 pm: One more note on this (again, as the only person here who was at the scene on the night in question): It seems to us in hindsight that the reason the girl I was with and I were not victims was: 1) We were walking on the south side of Chicago Ave.; and 2) We were walking her Pit Bull. A couple just walking down the street might have met with a different fate. These guys were not choosing targets at whim. They chose an old man, a tourist with a camera, and a guy just getting off his scooter. All looked like easy targets (although the guy on the scooter ended up being too tough for them). They saw that we had an effective means to counter (or at least make things painful for a few of them) so we were left alone (assuming they glanced across the street to see us). Based on what I saw, the idea of some shootout does not seem credible. Instead, the gun would simply have to come out and they would have gone someplace else. These people were not superheroes. They wanted easy targets. - Cincinnatus - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:44 pm: Wordslinger, I hope this flash mob phenomenon is a flash in the pan. However, since it is based on the use of social media, and social media is still in its infant growth phase, I fear we will see more of these types of assaults as word (no offense) spreads across the nation. We may be seeing the tip of a new wave of violence that will only dissipate when it snows. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:45 pm: Again, this was not a flash mob. - Jasper - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:47 pm: Wordslinger, About two months ago, there was a series of robberies about two blocks away (across from Northwestern Hospital). It has been a rough six months for the neighborhood. While crime may be decreasing elsewhere, it seems to be on the rise in that neighborhood. For what it is worth — my understanding is that much smaller groups were involved in the incidents at Fairbanks/Erie/Huron. My impression was that those incidents were more typical muggings were a gun would not have made a difference. - steve schnorf - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:47 pm: Hmm, concealed carry pit bulls? Would you attack someone who might have a pit bull under their coat or in their pocket? I think not! - steve schnorf - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:49 pm: God, now I’ve let myself be sucked in - Jasper - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:51 pm: And that’s sort of the point, Steve. “Conceal” would not necessarily stop the incident. “Open” would be. Our deterrent was about 80 pounds tugging on his leash. Obvious to everybody. Something tucked in a waistband would have been worthless. Pull it out though? Pretty sure they would scatter. - Jasper - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:52 pm: And now you are in for good, Steve. Forget getting work done this afternoon. - deadcatbouce - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:53 pm: According to Wordslinger we need to get the “idle youth at productive work.” The problem is that the idle youth do not want to work. These youth have not learned how to self control at home and how to defer gratification. All the schooling and job training that money can buy is wasted unless they kids can control their behavior and acquire the ability to wait in order to obtain something that he or she wants. That training needs to start as a very young child. If they can’t do their school work or even get to school, how are they going to work a job? - fed up - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:55 pm: the media ignored this when daley was mayor. It has been happening downtown for months. It statrted with groups of teens rushing into stores and piliging and has evolved into random acts of wilding. The police really dont have a lot of good choices here. If the attacks continue it looks real bad for the city. if the police break up goups of teens Small town liberal and her ilk will be calling them racist and suing so I guess that it might be best to stay away from downtown - Bigtwich - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:56 pm: A brief Google search suggest this is happening in various places including Las Vegas. http://www.8newsnow.com/story/14575982/mob-of-thieves-swarms-las-vegas-convenience-store Must be caused by gambling. - Phineas J. Whoopee - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:58 pm: Word this is not one incident. This stuff started a couple years ago when the gangs found out they could come down to the Taste and run rough shod. What happened? They cancelled fireworks. Then the gangs started mass robbing the upscale stores. Now they are mass mugging. They found it easy picking and it’s progressing. - dupage dan - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 1:59 pm: I’m still trying to figure out just how a victim is supposed to know he is safe from serious harm when he is hit upside the head with a baseball? “Oh, it’s alright, I just have a concussion. They must just be out having a lark”. If I were to be accosted in the came manner as the victims in these cases I would be terrified and would likely believe that my life was in imminent danger. As far as using a handgun when the criminals “only” have a baseball, I am reminded of the woman who had rocks thrown at her home. She was hit by one of the rocks when she confronted the 2 boys and she shot one of them. Thankfully all survived. Curiously, the woman was not charged with illegal possession of a firearm (pre-SCOTUS decision) or for using too much responding force. Pretty much everyone agreed she had a right to defend herself even tho her attackers “only had a rock”. The gratuitous comments about how some posters here shouldn’t have the right to CC is just that, gratuitous. The evidence bourne of statistics culled from the 48 other states that have some form of CC law indicates that there are few incidents where the weapons are used in reckless ways. Other than the hyperbole used here by many, including here, to belittle and provoke those who post here is harmless discussion. I don’t even see anyone carrying a baseball. - chuddery - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:02 pm: ==The problem is that the idle youth do not want to work. These youth have not learned how to self control at home and how to defer gratification.== If you know so much about these kids it’s your duty to give the police the identity of the unknown participants. If you’re just making broad, sweeping generalizations without any type of facts maybe you should reconsider posting. - Smitty Irving - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:05 pm: Saying 48 states have concealed carry is not quite right. Concealed carry from New York State outside New York City is rarely recognized in NYC … the original version of Home Rule, one could say. - Anonymous - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:10 pm: “After going upside these young men’s heads (or unloading our conceal-carry clip), we have a couple of choices: put them in jail, or put them to work.” Seeing as how they committed several felonies, I vote for jail. That is normally where people who commit crimes are supposed to go. Of course, several of the kids were charged as minors, so I’m sure they’ll be back out on the streets within a few weeks. - Irishpirate - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:14 pm: Those of you who think this is largely economy driven are wrong. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304066504576345553135009870.html In any case the po po need to get a handle on this quickly. It likely involves just a few hundred young idiots. After locking up a few dozen most of the others will get the idea and find something else to pass the time. This has been an escalating problem for years. The city didn’t acknowledge it before and now it’s apparent there is a problem. - bored now - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:17 pm: 3rd Generation Chicago Native: please stop pretending chicago is interested in tourism. it’s the least tourist friendly city i’ve ever encountered. chicago is interested in its residents bringing in their friends and family, and perhaps an occasional midwesterner who knows their way around the place, but real tourists??? nope. there is no evidence of that, at least not to tourists themselves. there is a reason why chicago is losing conventions, and it has nothing to do with unions. chicago has a tourist apartheid policy; you’re welcome, but only where we tell you to go (the loop, mcpier, museum campus and the “miracle mile”)… - dupage dan - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:19 pm: Ok, so it was not a “flash mob”. I get it. What should we call these groups of ne’erdowells? Crass Mobs? Classless Mobs? Crabby Mobs? As far as using some form of CCC or WPA or some such acronym from the FDR days, that was for persons over 18 y/o. They have some youth programs in the city as well as YMCAs, Boys/Girls Clubs, Summer School (Maybe school should be year round?). The lists go on and on. Funding cuts have certainly affected how many youths can be signed up. Maybe we could have a discussion about how that funding should come before health care for the poor or group homes for the disabled. Fact is, crime is occuring even when school is in sessions. The criminal cases regarding the Fenger HS is a case in point. Blaming society is a convenient way of watering down what these people did. They engaged is vicious criminal behavior. There seems to be a pattern emerging despite what some are posting here. They should be held accountable for their actions. People should be able to feel safe and be able to protect themselves without having to hide at home or avoid going downtown. - grand old partisan - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:20 pm: Okay, now that I have a little more time to fully dive into this: (a) Yes, the ISRA’s ‘alert’ is – characteristically – poorly crafted. This is hardly breaking news. (b) The Chicago Police Department’s difficulty in controlling the problem is a direct result of the fact that it is utterly understaffed. Perhaps an acknowledgement of that would go a long way to winning LE support for concealed carry. (c) That being said, even a fully staffed police department is fundamentally incapable of providing direct, immediate protection to all citizens (and visitors). That is why the right to self protection is so important. If you disagree that concealed carry is the best option for providing citizens with a self protection plan, then please suggest an alternative. (d) Nobody here is suggesting that the solution is to allow conceled carry so that people can “start emptying the clip of their Glock 26 into groups of teenagers wandering in crowded areas.” To suggest otherwise, even snarkily, is stupid - plain and simple (and delete me for saying so if you want Rich, but it’s the simple truth) - Jimmy CrackCorn - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:21 pm: == and the “miracle mile”)… == I’ve lived in Chicago my whole life and have yet to discover this “miracle mile.” Maybe you’re right we should be spending more money on tourist promotion to get the word out on this magical place! - Logic not emotion - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:22 pm: Montrose: No irony meant; but I like the name too so “thanks”. As does everyone else, I have access to stats too; but I’ve read in multiple places that Chicago does a number of things to distort (lower) the actual stats. Do I know that for a fact? No. Do I suspect it is true? Yes. Does it really matter in the big picture? No. - dupage dan - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:23 pm: @Smitty Irving 2:02pm, If you were referring to my post re CC laws in 48 states, please note I specifically said “48 other states that have some form of CC law”. SOME FORM OF CC LAW. So, what was your point in bringing that up? How does your post move the discussion along? - wordslinger - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:24 pm: This is news because a white guy got attacked by black kids in Streeterville. That makes it an “epidemic.” Six black people were murdered last weekend on the South and West sides. That rated a paragraph in the Sun-Times and no commentary whatsoever. - soccermom - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:29 pm: Word– Last summer, we went out to Orcas Island, where there is a wonderful park constructed by the young folks in the CCC. It was great fun, we dropped way too much money into the local economy, and we felt proud of our country for preserving such a beautiful place and making it accessible to tourists like us. Seems like we ought to be able to run a similar program these days — goodness knows there are plenty of state and federal parklands that could use some sprucing. And while it’s embarrassing to sound like the Girl Scout leader I used to be - -I think there could be some real value in getting these kids out into some clean, green spaces where they can breathe fresh air, see real stars, commune with nature and build something that will outlast them. (Cue Jimmy Stewart in “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.”) - amalia - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:29 pm: Back to the problem….those three kids arrested came from three different schools in Chicago. are they in a gang? did they meet in a neighborhood and one or more of them moved but still stay in touch? what about the juveniles? is there a ringleader in this group? and while the concept of flash mob is of people getting together via different types of e communication and doing something, oh, usually dance related or whatever, this is a similar, but sinister concept IF they meet up through electronic signaling. so get off the point that “it’s not a flash mob.” cause it kind of could be. poor and without a job is not an excuse for violence. - Jasper - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:32 pm: Good point, Wordslinger. Because the last time that 20 people jumped one (at Fenger) it got no attention at all. - Realist - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:33 pm: This is news because it was a random, vicious attack on people in crowded areas in broad daylight, and the overwhelming number of attackers. Gang violence happens all the time, and is rarely random (one gang fighting another gang). Race plays absolutely no role in this discussion. I would expect a large number of whites, blacks, hispanics, asians, etc. all applying for conceal carry permits when they are finally available. Self-defense is everyone’s right. - JL - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:36 pm: Chicago is a city. Cities have crime. Crime is bad. However, there is no proof that concealed carry would reduce any sort of crime. States that have concealed carry laws have as much, if not more crime than Illinois. To think that a concealed carry law is going to change anything is naive. Not to be insensitive, but how is this any different than the beating epidemic in Lincoln Park a couple summers ago? Any time crime comes to white areas it makes news, the issue here should not be concealed carry, but a need for an honest discussion about how we deal with violence in our city. This is a complex problem and Rahm better address it soon, instead of letting partisan buffoons (like me) from both sides dictate the debate. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:36 pm: –poor and without a job is not an excuse for violence.– That’s very true, and the majority of those who are poor and without a job are not violent. But if you can point to me a time or place in human history where poverty and joblessness didn’t result in more crime, I’d love to see it. Soccermom, one of the greatest places on earth in Ludington State Park in Michigan, built by CCCers. I wish I was there right now. - dupage dan - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:39 pm: word, One of the victims is from Japan. Just sayin’. - soccermom - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:40 pm: Grand Old Partisan - If you take a look at Phineas J. Whoopee at 12:04 p.m., you will see that somebody here did indeed suggest that the solution is to allow concealed carry so that people can “start emptying the clip of their Glock 26 into groups of teenagers wandering in crowded areas.” You also will note that, although I disagree vehemently with concealed carry, I did not call anyone stupid, snarkily or not. - dupage dan - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:43 pm: Actually, word, despite one of the worst economic pictures since the Great Depression crime statistics indicate a drop in crime, not a rise. One more time - what should the current economic picture mean to the victim while being viciously assaulted by a gang of thugs? How should the victim process that information? How should that affect their choice of self defense? - dupage dan - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:46 pm: Maybe we should start a seperate stream about the CCC. As a young boyscout it was a yearly tradition to go to Devil’s Lake in Wisc during January and stay in the CCC barracks. @ dorm wings on either side of the dining room with the kitchen in back. Big old gas ranges and 50gal drum stoves provided the heat. Outhouse out back was cold when you first sat on the seat. Hiking around the state park up on the bluffs. Great memories. Now, back to the bloodbath. - grand old partisan - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:47 pm: Soccermom – duly noted, my apologies. I didn’t catch that particular comment, and I’m simply dumbfounded that someone did actually make such a ridiculous statement. I withdraw point (d) of my comment. - Phineas J. Whoopee - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:48 pm: Soccermon, if your going to quote me at least try to be a little accurate. You’d still make your point. - Because I say so - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:55 pm: Just a guess but I think that a mob of teens who would commit this kind of crime are not necessarily up to speed on recently passed laws. Also guessing they don’t read the papers and watch the news. Would they even know about conceal carry if it were legal? If not, it will not be a deterrent. - Cincinnatus - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 2:58 pm: Studies show that crime increases only at the margins during economic downturns. So we did not necessarily see an increase of crime during the recessions, and even if we did, correlation is not causation. One could also make an argument that crime rates increase because during economic downturns, police departments are often hit and there are a reduced number of peace officers to prevent crime. Indeed, the slight increase in crime during the Depression can be attributed to the end of Prohibition as several bootleggers jockeyed for position after booze became legal. - soccermom - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 3:02 pm: Phineas — what subtlety did I miss in this remark? “a Glock 26 with a 33 round clip emptied into the mob by a trained shooter would deter quite nicely.” - dupage dan - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 3:06 pm: word, I appreciate your post about how the vast majority of the poor without a job are not violent. Certainly we don’t see many headlines about those folk, do we? I would like your opinion about just what the difference is between the poor, jobless NON violent folk and the poor, jobless and VIOLENT? If we can control for the variables I fear we would conclude that it is a choice. A choice to offend. A choice to assault. Just like we see Suburban White Kids who come from privelege and, presumably, eduation. Some keep to the straight and narrow and we find others coming into the city to purchase heroin or engaging in other forms of criminal activity. These are choices that people make. We can go on and on about the “why”s of this behavior. We can, and have, spent billions of dollars trying to address the problems and turn the lives of these young folk around. And we can’t even say for certain why the crime rate is down. Great for discussion but it means NOTHING to the victim during the assault. - Walter Mitty - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 3:25 pm: Whoope–figures you would mischaracterize my point. I never said that what they are doing is right, moral, OR can be excused because of upbringing. Get this: i am a Dem, and this is CRIME that should be PUNISHED. What I AM saying is that everyone carrying firearms, namely what the yahoos want to have happen, would NOT solve the problem. What I WAS saying was that more street smarts would go a long way towards it. Meanwhile, the CPD will continue to work and solve the problem. Nice TRY on making us sound soft on crime. Wont work. - Cincinnatus - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 3:33 pm: Walter Mitty said, “What I AM saying is that everyone carrying firearms, namely what the yahoos want to have happen, would NOT solve the problem.” While it may not solve societies “problem”, it may solve that “problem” for the individual being assaulted if he were armed. Nowhere in the constitution does it address “group” rights other than the freedom to associate. It’s about the safety and rights of the individual, and right now Illinois is infringing on an individual’s right to self defense. - Jasper - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 3:33 pm: Walter, you claim “more street smarts” would solve the problem. Tell me, since you know the area so well: Assume you are walking west on Chicago from LSD. It is light as day. The area has a lot of people and traffic is moderate to heavy. You see a big group of gang members approaching. Now, how does “street smarts” prevent them from making you a victim? Walter, you can rely on “street smarts.” I, on the other hand, will volunteer to do a favor for a friend take that Pit with me. We will see which one of us becomes a victim. The idea that “street smarts” would solve this is just ridiculous. Street smarts and a weapon of some sort (gun, Pit Bull, etc.) will solve the problem. - amalia - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 3:34 pm: well, wordslinger, I am no authority on the levels of crime and joblessness, but the mobs in France had a point and changed their government via the Revolution. these folks are after iPods. big difference. what about the 1930s? the dust bowl? were prisons our big industry then? why not? somehow we have reached a point where it seems expected that a gang has an excuse to hurt people…poverty. would this response have been the same in the 1950s? would those kids be roaming around the same way? what happened? why is it different? - Anonymous - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 3:37 pm: More street smarts? These attacks happened in broad daylight, to people simply walking down the streets and going to stores. The CPD has been unable to solve this problem for over a year now, because they’re obviously undermanned. I saw that new Superintendent McCarthy also made those kinds of comments about street smarts. If blaming the victims is going to be part of the CPD’s response to these attacks, maybe the best demonstration of “street smarts” would be to avoid the area altogether. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 3:45 pm: OK, everybody calm down. Deletions have begun and may expand. I’ve been distracted, but now I’m back. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 3:46 pm: –somehow we have reached a point where it seems expected that a gang has an excuse to hurt people…poverty. – No one said that. Strawman. Your nostalgic for a time that never existed. There was plenty of urban violence in the 1950s. Urban violence and crime were huge problems in American cities in the 19th Century (think “Gangs of New York”) and led to the establishment of professional police forces. http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/policing.cfm - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 7, 11 @ 3:49 pm: Mario, you are banned for life. Anybody else want to try? Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.