Cook County considering “violence tax”
Tuesday, Oct 9, 2012 - Posted by Rich Miller
* Cook County Board President Toni Preckwinkle is reportedly mulling a “violence tax” on guns and ammunition…
Such a tax alone wouldn’t close a $115 million budget gap in 2013, but it could at least funnel money into the county’s $3 billion operation — where roughly two-thirds of the budget pays for both the county’s public health clinics and two hospitals along with the criminal justice system that includes the courts and jail.
“If we were to pursue a tax on something like guns and ammo, clearly that wouldn’t be popular with the [gun lobby] out there, and it may not generate $50 million, but … it is consistent with our commitment to pursuing violence reduction in the city and in the county,” Kurt Summers, Preckwinkle’s chief of staff, said on Monday.
The idea is to curb the number of guns in circulation, he said, citing a report issued last summer showing that nearly one-third of the guns recovered on Chicago’s streets were purchased in suburban gun shops. Other statistics are more dire: Murders in Chicago are up 25 percent this year, according to recent police statistics, and the county jail is filling up — with 9,000-plus inmates, nearing the 10,155 capacity. […]
The cost to treat a gunshot victim, without insurance, is pegged at $52,000, Summers said. And 70 percent of gunshot victims don’t have health insurance, he says.
* The Illinois State Rifle Association’s response…
“Today the president of the Cook County Board announced another in a long string of schemes to punish law-abiding firearm owners and firearm dealers. In the past, the county board has tried banning firearms and heaping all sorts of red tape on firearm owners and dealers – all in an attempt to discourage county citizens from exercising their 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms. This latest proposal, a tax on firearms and ammunition, will raise very little revenue and do nothing to stem the violent crime that Cook County has become famous for.
“As with the county board’s past gun control schemes, this firearm and ammunition tax is just a smokescreen designed to obscure the fallout from ineffective government. Estimates are that about 90% of those people who commit murders in Cook County have previous criminal records. Likewise, estimates indicate that about 75% of murder victims have criminal records as well. These numbers are an indictment of the Cook County courts and the county’s correctional system. It’s clear that the county cannot deter criminal activity and cannot rehabilitate the criminals that do end up incarcerated. Regardless of what the county board would have us believe, the problem of crime and punishment in Cook County is not the fault of law-abiding hunters and sportsmen.
“Whether board president Preckwinkle likes it or not, the demand for firearms and ammunition by law-abiding citizens remains strong – in great part due to the failure of the county to keep its streets safe. Imposition of this punitive tax on guns and ammunition will do nothing to stem that demand. The reality is that lawful firearm dealers will avoid the tax by moving out to the collar counties and take their law-abiding customers with them. And with their customers will go hefty sales tax receipts that far out strip any revenues that the firearm “sin tax” would generate. And lastly, passage of this tax on firearms and ammunition will make reelection bids much more expensive for those board members who vote for it.”
Discuss.
- OneMan - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 10:45 am:
If you are going to tax the proximate and immediate causes of violence, I would suggest increasing the alcohol taxes as well.
Also if anyone thinks a tax on guns and ammo sold in Cook County is going to reduce gun violence well more power to you in that, because it isn’t going to happen
- House of Pain - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 10:46 am:
We need a spoon tax, because you know…these spoons are making me fat!
- Allen Skillicorn - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 10:46 am:
Sounds like a backdoor attempt to close Cook County gun shops to me. Why not just be honest about it?
- John A Logan - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 10:47 am:
A proposal this detached from reality does not deserve a response.
- PQ's Primary Opponent - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 10:48 am:
The Prez of Cook County Board is a firm believer in the practice of regulating behaivor thru taxation. As usual, she will end up not getting the revenue expected, those that can will drive across the border to a neighboring county and get what they need. those that do not have the where with all to access a car will be stuck paying her tax, and we all know what poor communities will be affected.
- OneMan - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 10:49 am:
I would shoot this guy, but I don’t want to spend that much on bullets…
Said
No one ever….
- Anonymous - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 10:49 am:
“Estimates are that about 90% of those people who commit murders in Cook County have previous criminal records. Likewise, estimates indicate that about 75% of murder victims have criminal records as well.”
What is the source for these stats? If accurate they are very pursuasive. I wonder what percentage are registered guns as well?
- Loop Lady - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 10:52 am:
This sounds like good idea to me. What is the cost of the treatment of GSW victims that have no insurance in our ERs to folks that have insurance?
If there can’t be hand gun control in IL, lets tax bullets that are used in these firearms to help defray the cost of policing, healthcare expenses, and other costs to society related to the use of guns that are used primarily to kill people.
- PQ's Primary Opponent - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 10:53 am:
House of Pain: “a spoon tax” great idea. Preckwinkle should also levy a special tax on McD’s, Church’s and Popeye’s..
- Louis G. Atsaves - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 10:53 am:
Maybe the City of Chicago should concentrate on staffing their woefully understaffed police department? And then sending them out into the high crime areas which have turned into shooting galleries? Or am I being too logical here?
- He Makes Ryan Look Like a Saint - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 10:54 am:
Statitics show that most of the crimes are committed by high school drop outs. Perhaps they should levy a hefty fine on students that drop out of school? It will do the exact same thing as the guns and ammo tax…. NOTHING to stop crime.
- cover - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 10:56 am:
Cook County Board President Preckwinkle’s proposal will not do anything to reduce gun violence. In this case, ISRA is correct that the gun shops will relocate to the collars, reducing Cook County’s sales tax revenues (while slightly boosting them in DuPage, Lake, and Will), and offer a minor inconvenience to legal gun owners in Cook.
If Preckwinkle is really considering a future run for Governor, she seems to be tone-deaf to the concerns of downstate Dems, who are decidedly not anti-gun. Granted, downstate Dems are becoming harder to find, but if there is a primary contest, the downstaters could tip the balance.
- Cal Skinner - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 11:00 am:
Taxing motor vehicle more to pay for injuries in accidents makes as much nonsense but would bring in a lot more money.
- PQ's Primary Opponent - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 11:02 am:
LOOP LADY: so under your theory you would agree to a special tax on McDonalds, and popeyes and wendys etc?? How about all them poor fat people who show up in the er’s with heart attacks.. Hell let’s tax Starbucks they sell bacon n sausage each morning..
- RNUG - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 11:05 am:
John Logan said it best …
- PQ's Primary Opponent - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 11:12 am:
Of course lobbying the county board is NOT like lobbying the Illinois General Assembly..
- Colossus - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 11:14 am:
Does ISRA have any ideas about what to do about the violence in Chicago that is more involved than blaming Democrats and deifying law-abiding gun owners? Because those aren’t solutions, those are stances. If ISRA wants these types of proposals to stop, maybe they should bring some of their intellectual heft to solving the problem at hand while protecting their members’ interests. After all, as ISRA will point out, the perpetrators in all likelihood aren’t ISRA members.
- Aaron - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 11:15 am:
I guess the taxes I pay when I shop at the grocery store are part of a scheme against law-abiding eaters.
- Plutocrat03 - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 11:23 am:
“Taxing motor vehicle more to pay for injuries in accidents ”
You already pay for that in your insurance policy …. medical coverage, uninsured coverage, underinsured coverage…. and backed up by civil lawsuits.
Not a tax per se, but certainly a cost.
- wordslinger - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 11:25 am:
–Estimates are that about 90% of those people who commit murders in Cook County have previous criminal records. Likewise, estimates indicate that about 75% of murder victims have criminal records as well.–
I feel better already.
I’m with Colussus. What ideas do the “law-abiding” blah, blah, blah, have about curbing gun violence?
- Cheryl44 - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 11:34 am:
It’s like that Chris Rock routine where he says we need to make ammo so expensive people would really stop and think about it before they shot someone.
- VanillaMan - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 11:37 am:
A violence tax should be paid by those who commit violence, right? Who can mess up that logic?
Taxing guns and ammunitions to pay for crime is like taxing Butterfinger candy bars, Planter’s peanuts, and Skippy peanut butter for the cost of hospitalizing people with nut allergies.
Cook county is out of ideas to stop the slaughter, aren’t they?
- Loop Lady - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 11:42 am:
go Cheryl 44…PQ PO: see Colossus’ post…
Handguns are a huge problem for unarmed citizens in gang ridden neighborhoods. Rifles are not so concealable. Let’s discuss this and not demonize those who oppose our point of view…no knee jerk reactions allowed on this blog, remember?
A friend of mine was driving home from downtown Chicago ten years ago and was SHOT IN THE HEAD by a stray bullet from a handgun. She survived, but it took years to recover, with subsequent loss of income, huge medical bills, and loss of human potential. You’re lucky if this isn’t an issue where you live, but it sure as hell is in plenty of towns across this state buddy…
- Steve Bartin - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 11:47 am:
It’s not surprising Cook County Board President Toni Preckwinkle would suggest a tax on guns and ammunition. Preckwinkle doesn’t really believe in the 2nd Amendment. The whole concept is laughable , like Lake County Indiana is far away. It’s not the business of Cook County to “curb the number of guns in circulation”. Attention Toni Preckwinkle and the Cook County Board: your extreme views on guns don’t make it any easier to convince the Jim DeMint’s of the world to bail out your underfunded pension plans. If Cook County could manage its books, maybe stupid ideas like this wouldn’t come up.
- illinifan - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 11:56 am:
Taxes such as suggested here are imposed in other parts of the U.S. and it helps to cover the cost of medical care for the uninsured who are shot. The Santa Clara Valley health system does this. Sort of makes sense that those doing the shooting pay for the after care of those they shot. Just a thought.
- Wensicia - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 12:10 pm:
This makes about as much sense as the “pole” tax on strip clubs.
- Just Observing - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 12:37 pm:
This is why the public hates politicians. Silly proposals meant to generate headlines but void of any substance.
- Boone's is Back - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 12:45 pm:
I don’t think it is a silly proosal at all. The County has a budget shortfall and this could be part of a package to close that gap.
The city of Chicago and Cook County have a serious violence problem. While many criminals may get guns and ammo through the black market I would imagine that much of it was initially bought legally and locally. I don’t think gang bangers are driving to Tennessee to get bullets.
The second amendment right to bear arms is clear and concrete, but nobody ever said that right comes tax free.
- Steve Bartin - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 12:50 pm:
Just a reminder. People do buy ammunition off the internet and they aren’t paying Cook County sales tax.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/07/robert-farago/omg-ammunition-from-the-internet-1000s-of-rounds-omg/
- Arthur Andersen - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 12:50 pm:
Yes Toni, gangbangers go to Joe’s Guns & Ammo or Dick’s Sporting Goods to get a pistol and some bullets.
In your parallel universe.
The next idea will be a $250 fine on the owner of every gun stolen in a burglary that ends up next to a dead banger. “Failure to properly secure lethal weapon.”
- OneMan - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 12:53 pm:
Loop Lady –
I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with you that gun violence is bad, the problem is you are not going to reduce gun violence.
Using your logic, all users of a product should be taxed to help cover the social and government costs of when that product is used irresponsibly or illegally. That is the goal of taxing guns and ammo right, to make those who purchase those items, regardless if they are to be used to shoot someone in a drive by or to go to Northern Wisconsin to shoot Bambi’s mother.
For many people this is a T.O.P (a tax on other people, so it seems like a good idea). However using your logic, I should be taxed on the purchase of a car because a car could be operated by an uninsured driver and hit someone without insurance, that way all car users cover the expenses of the uninsured victim.
Or
Since many acts of violence occur within domestic relationships, some of these acts lead to expenses for the state (medical, law enforcement, etc) everyone who lives with another person should be subject to a special tax to cover those costs…
The other thing is, odds are the courts will not let you tax guns and ammo such that it is punitive and aimed a reducing the sales of said items and if you could do that (lets say have a tax at $1 a bullet), congratulations you have caused gun shops in Cook County to close and made them move to the collar counties and Indiana…
The guy involved in the drive by is not getting his ammo at Bass Pro Shop…
- wordslinger - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 12:57 pm:
–The guy involved in the drive by is not getting his ammo at Bass Pro Shop…–
Why do you say that? Is there a special Drive-By-Shooting Ammo Store?
- 47th Ward - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 12:57 pm:
===woefully understaffed police department===
It’s only understaffed in the eyes of the FOP. Just because Chicago has fewer police officers than it is authorized to have in its budget does not mean it is actually understaffed.
“As of 2010, the City of Chicago has more police officers per 100,000 residents than any of the top four largest cities in the country.”
http://chicagojustice.org/blog/police-staffing-in-america2019s-5-largest-cities
As for Preckwinkle’s idea, while I agree we should tax things we want less of in society (pollution being a prime example), in this instance we want less violence, so I don’t think taxing ammunition or guns really gets at the problem. ISRA and others would say their “solution” is to arm everyone and let the vigilantes help with the problem and/or make criminals think twice. To me, that is as misguided as Preckwinkle’s plan.
We live in a violent society. Canada has about the same level of gun ownership but only a fraction of the violence. More to the point, a huge percentage of Chicago’s violence and murders are a direct result of the illegal drug trade. Give Preckwinkle credit for speaking out on that too. At least she isn’t burying her head in the sand like most politicians on the single biggest driver or murder in the country.
- OneMan - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 12:58 pm:
You can’t even buy ammo or guns in Chicago if I am not mistaken. So you a really targeting the suburbs and I highly, highly doubt that even 1% of the ammo sold in Cook County is used in the commission of a crime, but go ahead and tax it, more sales tax revenue for the collars and Indiana..
- OneMan - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 1:09 pm:
Because it is logical…
Most gun owners (even legal ones) don’t buy ammo that often (if at all, besides what they have in the weapon).
Why because they don’t shoot the weapon.
They don’t go to the range, they might shoot up in the air on New Years Eve but they are not going to the range.
If they were going to the range there would be a ton of gun ranges in Chicagoland (there are not)…
Also if you even use half of estimated number (lets say 45% of murderers have a criminal record) it does not seem like a stretch. Those folks can not buy ammo from a retailer.
- Colossus - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 1:12 pm:
- Using your logic, all users of a product should be taxed to help cover the social and government costs of when that product is used irresponsibly or illegally.-
OneMan - Are you saying we should get rid of all tobacco taxes? Alcohol taxes? Because you just put down the entire premise those long-levied taxes are built upon. I couldn’t have put it better myself, actually. Thanks for saving me the time!
- jerry 101 - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 1:13 pm:
Makes about as much sense as taxing cigarettes to fill the coffers and reduce smoking rates, reducing long-term medical costs over time.
I’m all for it. If you want a gun that bad, go buy it in DuPage County. Just don’t forget to pay your use tax.
All guns and ammo that are sold legally in Chicago should come with a tax stamp, too. There should be a number associated with the firearm purchase that is retained by the county as well. If the police bring in a gun owned by a Cook County resident who hasn’t paid the tax, then there should also be a big fine. Boxes of ammo should be stamped as well. Possession of an unstamped box of ammo should involve a big fine, too.
Even if it just keeps one person from getting shot, that’s a big win in my book.
- Meanderthal - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 1:15 pm:
A strong case could be made that we are already paying a violence tax in Cook County.
- Suburban Resident - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 1:20 pm:
Instead of taxing guns and Ammo, how about the county require Health Insurance along with their FOID.
That would eliminate the middle (tax) man.
- illinifan - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 1:22 pm:
To “one man” regarding your comment “using your logic, I should be taxed on the purchase of a car because a car could be operated by an uninsured driver” you are in a way being taxed for the uninsured, but you call it an insurance premium. All drivers pay extra insurance to insure themselves against the uninsured. We also pay more in our medical bills due to the uninsured. There are probably lots of taxes and extra fees we pay because someone else does not pay. If each of us covered our own costs and were responsible for ourselves and our families it would cost each of us less. But that will never happen….not because of politics but rather because of the very nature of people.
- RNUG - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 1:32 pm:
Colossus and others asking for ideas
It’s not rocket science; you need more cops where the trouble is and you need to remove the torublemakers.
The obvious approach is the “no broken window / neighborhood policing” policy that has been used successfully in other cities. But that requires more visible police presence on the streets, actually walking beats, observing and interacting with the individuals in each neighborhood every day. It serves as both a visible deterent and as an intelligence source to identify the torublemakers. You don’t get the same results with “drop in” task forces and special squards. You have to start by bringing back the actual beat cop and let them do their job.
I’ve seen this approach work. In fact, sometimes it’s worked so well that the neighborhood people will only talk to “their” cop even though other police officers are present and trying to help whatever the situation is.
You also get the various departments such as building, zoning, public health and safety involved and start citing every violation. Physiclaly cleaning up the neighborhoods starts to instill a sense of pride in the residents, and that’s one of the first steps to reclaiming a neighborhood.
It needs to be a long term effort, not just another flavor of the month approach that will be forgotten when the budget comes around. All this will cost more in the short to medium term (3 - 5 years) but that’s how you start to regain control of a city …
- Fed up - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 2:03 pm:
47th ward,
The article you cite uses the figure for Chicago Police of 13500 and even states they are unsure if Chicago has that many police in 2010. Well best estimate now has CPD at about. 10,000 -10500. But hey look at all the money’s we are saving with less police. Less salaries,healthcare and pensions for police plus the added bonus of all those murder victims we don’t have to educate or feed and cloth. Less people getting arrested in Chicago will mean fewer prisoners in Illinois prisons down the road Cha Ching cost savings, as long as you aren’t one of those murder victims
- OneMan - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 2:04 pm:
Colossus, might I suggest next time you read something you quote…
So by it’s nature, tobacco is always used irresponsibly, since it’s use directly leads to health problems…
As for alcohol, lets not kid ourselves, we do not tax nor regulate alcohol because of it’s social costs, we tax it because fundamentally, we can.
A while back we had quite the discussion here about Ken Burns’ Prohibition documentary. One of the things I learned from that was how much of tax revenue came from alcohol…
http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/prohibition/unintended-consequences/
The US was at the time generating 11 Billion in federal taxes, you want to tell me that 75% of New York State spending at that time went to the consequences of alcohol?
Also if you really think this is about helping the victims of gun crime I have some land for you…
It’s about tax revenue, pure and simple. They should be adults and admit it, it isn’t about reducing gun violence.
Anytime I hear we are going to tax X to cover the cost of X, I ask myself, what happened to the tobacco settlement, it seems to me for the most part that government in this state at all levels is unwilling or incapable of using tax revenue they say they are raising to deal with X for X.
Then again, for me it is T.O.P tax (Tax on Other People) since I don’t buy sporting goods, nor ammo, in Cook County anyway…
So go ahead tax the hell out of it, it is just going to help the local gun shops in my neck of the woods anyway.
- OneMan - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 2:06 pm:
illinifan and I pay for those un-covered costs of gun violence with taxes and health insurance premiums now…
- Loop Lady - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 2:09 pm:
One Man: I don’t agree that people are entitled to kill themselves or others and let society as a whole pick up the tab. There are costs to municpalities, healthcare systems, and the judicial system if they are apprehended.
Taxes on cigarettes have caused many folks to give up smoking, and save those of us with health
insurance monies on health care coverage for smokers who have cancer.
What we do or not with our God given freedom does affect those around us. Do you ever consider the right of a child to sit in their living room and study without the likelihood of being shot by an errant bullet from a gang bangers gun? What about that child’s right to live a life free of that possibility? How many parents have to lose their children before the righ to live outweighs the right to carry a loaded handgun and kill rival gang members?
What this is really about is a the right of an individual vs. the greater good of a society IMO.
- Belle - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 2:27 pm:
I think jobs and education would end violence more effectively.
- Fed up - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 2:30 pm:
Loop lady,
So if we rounded up drug dealers and gang bangers and eliminated them for the greater good of society that’s ok.
- Fed up - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 2:33 pm:
Belle
Good point, perhaps a proper family. Studies have shown two parent households are better for children. Perhaps we should tax fathers who don’t raise their kids.
- wizard - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 2:44 pm:
loop lady. since when did gangbangers have the right to carry a loaded gun? they will carry regardless of the laws. as oneman said its a not a tax on me so i could care less, and my local guns shop will benefit.
- Loop Lady - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 2:54 pm:
Belle: Nice ideas, now put them into action. While you’re at it increase the love and nuturing in poor socioeconomic homes and everything should be A OK.
Fed Up: is that a problem for you? I could live with it.
Wizard: Kinda my whole point. I-r-o-n-y…
- 1776 - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 3:32 pm:
Dealers will sell more crack cocain to pay for the bullet tax.
- capncrunch - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 3:43 pm:
“… one-third of the guns recovered on Chicago’s streets were purchased in suburban gun shops.”
How many of the people in possession of these guns were also the purchasers of them? If most of them were also the purchasers, the tax might help; if not, the tax makes no sense. The CPD surely knows the criminal status of the people from whom the guns were recovered. A person with a criminal record is unlikely to be the gun purchaser.
- SO IL M - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 3:53 pm:
If I remember correctly, there was a discussion on this site recently about the number of guns used in crimes in Chicago coming from outside of Cook County. This tax would do nothing except give Cook County another way to tax people.
To end violence you have to actually aggressively go after those commiting the violence. Increase Possesion of a Firearm by a Felon to a Class X Felony punishable by a 10 year minimum for the first offense, and require them to serve 85%. Increase penalties for subsequent convictions up to and including Natural Life. The East St. Louis Parole Office has started taking Feds with them on checks, and any Parolee with a gun charge is automaticaly charged with the Fed charge. Its working. Would work in Chicago too. Enforce RICO Laws. Agressively prosecute Gang Bangers under these laws since they are really Corupt Organizations. Until Chicago decides that they have to attempt to break the influence the Street Gangs have, they will get nowhere. As long as Chicago continues to appease and use Gang Chiefs for their advantage this will continue.
In the mean time, call this what it is, another way to tax people and push a Progresive Agenda at the same time.
- 47th Ward - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 4:02 pm:
Fine Fed Up, that study uses the total budgeted positions to say Chicago *would have* the highest number of officers per capita *if* it hired every officer it had budget authority to hire.
Fortunately common sense prevails and we haven’t hired as many police officers as somebody’s outdated budget would allow. Again, the FOP is the loudest group who thinks we don’t have enough cops on the street. Why do you think they’d want more cops hired?
Do you read any newspapers Fed Up? Most of the murders in Chicago are the result of the break up of the Gangster Disciples into multiple, smaller factions who are at war with each other over drug selling turf.
We could hire more cops and build more prisons or we could acknowledge that the black market for drugs is the light that is attracting all of these awful moths.
Hiring more cops sounds like a simple solution, until you realize that simple solutions are generally neither.
- reformer - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 4:09 pm:
A modest tax wouldn’t shut down gun stores, while a high, punitive tax might. Preckwinkle should learn from the Chicago cigaratte tax — second highest in the country — which has greatly reduced purchases in the City, but not smoking.
The County spends $tens of millions at the County hospital ER treating gunshot victims. Consequently, it’s not irrational to impose a small county tax on firearms and ammunition.
- SO IL M - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 4:10 pm:
Hey heres a great idea we just legalise Crack, Heroin, Meth, Coke, and they will not have a reason to shoot at each other anymore. All the violence will end if we just let the Gangs have their way.
You know while we are at it, we could really reduce the number of Sex Offenders by lowering the age of consent to 10! And, why do both participants have to consent? If we make it where as long as one consents its legal! Boy we could save a bunch of money there too and really reduce the number of Sex Offenders just like the way we can reduce the violence of Gangs by giving them what they want!
- Rich Miller - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 4:11 pm:
===All the violence will end if we just let the Gangs have their way.===
Um, no. Legalizing is about taking the money away from the gangs.
- Colossus - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 4:18 pm:
OneMan -
Alcohol and tobacco were both, at one time, used as medicinal products, which means there were ways to use it responsibly and legally. Even now, tobacco can be used by MDs for treating aspects of Crohn’s disease, making its use as a smoked product for enjoyment irresponsible but not illegal, hence why smokable products are taxed in a way the medicinal version isn’t.
While understanding of the nature of tobacco has changed from those olden days, its casual use in cigarettes, snuff, cigars, etc. is taxed precisely because those uses are irresponsible and impose a cost to society as a whole due to our inefficient system of delivering health care. The more I’ve looked into this angle, the more I think it is appropriate to use when discussing this specific idea from Preckwickle. Bullets used for sport shooting and hunting are used responsibly and legally. Now the question becomes “How do we account for the costs imposed when they are used illegally and irresponsibly?” And there happens to be a ready-made template for that kind of situation that can’t be dismissed out of hand.
As for the tax revenue from alcohol: duh. A decade of the Great Depression, and suddenly people realize there’s an existing, vibrant black market for an illegal product that could be legalized with little impact on society (as its use was widely but tacitly condoned). It’s not a product necessary for life, just one that makes life a little nicer and is completely voluntary to partake in. Why wouldn’t we legalize and tax the hell out of a product like that? There are few cases where an activity/product directly and clearly leads to external costs in such a clear way that taxing it can be used to offset that cost - the activity/product wouldn’t be allowed if it was a direct 1:1 ratio. But grouping together taxes on related-if-not-1:1 activities to cover the externalities is something that’s clearly within the Overton Window.
All that said, legalize marijuana and you’ll have less violence and all the police presence and funding you would need to implement a real solution like that proposed by RNUG (good thoughts, btw, I’d just like to see the ISRA step up and be a partner in making them happen).
- Colossus - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 4:25 pm:
SO IL M -
I’m curious where you’re planning on finding the funding to pay for the incarceration of individuals for the lengths of time you’re talking about. Getting tough on crime and locking them all away sure sounds great, but we’ve tried that for the last 30 years and it’s not working. Not only is it not working, but it’s a HUGELY expensive way of not working.
Eliminating the black market for marijuana would, in fact, help stem the flow of money into gangs. I’m not for legalizing everything, but if you’re saying the expense (both financial and human) of the War on (Some) Drugs(TM) is the right approach, then you and I simply see the problem in such different lights that we won’t come to a conclusion.
What I’m saying is, what you’re proposing is what we’re doing, and what we’re doing clearly isn’t working. I understand your concerns, but feel that more information on the dynamic will help you bring more insight to the situation.
- wordslinger - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 4:25 pm:
47, that’s for real.
In downtown Chicago, and most the neighborhoods in Chicago, you’re as safe from violent crime as you are anywhere.
Do you walk at night by the Abe Lincoln house in Springfield? By the courthouse in Rock Island? If you do, I know what you’re looking for, and it ain’t legal.
Kudos to the Tribbies for finally pointing out that the Gangster Disciples war on the South and West sides is what’s driving the murder rate in the city.
We’ve been down this road before.
During Prohibition, when the Italian, Irish and Jewish gangs were carving up the city.
During the Crack Wars, when a $5 coke buzz became Big Business.
And now, when no one wants to be “The Man,” like Jeff Fort or Willie Lloyd, with the federales on them, and the retail illegal drug business is dominated by terrorist cells, literally a block-by-block fight.
By the way, the wholesalers of illegal drugs are in Northern Mexico. South of our border is lawless. We send dollars and guns there, and they send us drugs. Happy trails.
The disintegration of law there is a bigger threat to the United States than any hijackers with box cutters or Taliban.
- Colossus - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 4:33 pm:
Word - I have long felt that one of the worst aspects of alcohol prohibition was the eroding of respect for the law, as regular Joe Sixpacks were, overnight, turned into lawbreakers. There’s some great articles scattered around the web about the dangers of the “a la carte” choices available to prosecutors when so many different things are illegal under so many different laws. Just about anyone could get hit with a laundry list of charges should they cross the wrong person. Even if none of them eventually stick you’ll be out loads of money on the defense and your good name ruined just the same.
- wishbone - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 4:35 pm:
Illinois Democrats shoot themselves in the foot one more time on the gun issue. The recent Tribune story showing that 80% of surviving gun violence victims in Chicago refuse to cooperate with police to identify their shooters highlights the real problem with gun violence in the city. Unfortunately, the mayor, Jesse Jackson and Father Pfleger are not interested in dealing with this reality, and would rather blame suburban gun shops for the problem. No wonder no progress is ever made. Ending the war on drugs, and empowering the honest people in these communities to stand up to the criminals is the only way to address the problem.
- SO IL M - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 4:49 pm:
Rich, The point I was going for, as sarcastic as it was, is that legalizing to take the money away from gangs will just give them legal money to use while they comtimue criminal activities. Criminals will still be Criminals. They will just have some legal money to spend.
Colossus, The money would come from savings that you will see in all areas. You currently arrest a Fellon with a gun, house him in Cook Co. Jail, run him thru the Court System with a Public Defender, send him to prison with a sentence of 3 to 5 years, where he serves 50% of that, parole him, and put him right back in the streets again. He finds another gun, either steals it or buys it illegally, commits more crimes causing property damage and losses to the victims, shoots one or more people sending them into the Cook Co. Hospital system, gets arrested again. And again. And again. You will see a lowering of costs by keeping him off the streets. It is so expensive now because we would rather keep the revolving door running, which costs more than removing them from society for very long periods of time. Also, if you notice I left Marijuana out of my sarcastic rant. I dont consider it in the same way as those I mentioned, and would support its legalization. It has not caused the harm that the chemical dependancys has.
- amalia - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 4:49 pm:
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. taxed lots, taxed lots, soon to be taxed lots. and rightfully so.
- Logan Square Lopez - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 5:00 pm:
The NATO money the feds gave Chicago was supposed to be for police and security. Now there is a surplus and Rahm wants to spend it on more parks. Seems to me that Rahm should be using that money to hire more police and Preckwinkle should be trying to get her hands on that stash to fight the violence. After all, the violence is predominantly in Chicago. Ooh look, pretty park!
- titan - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 5:01 pm:
Most bullets don’t get used in violent crimes. But almost all of it is committed by criminals, maybe we should tax criminals instead?
- 47th Ward - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 5:02 pm:
===They will just have some legal money to spend.===
Um, yes. They’d have to get actual jobs instead of selling drugs to make a living.
Are you by chance a prison employee SO IL M? That would explain your “lock-em-up-and-throw-away-the-key” attitude.
- Ronbo - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 6:27 pm:
Loop Lady- “to help defray the cost of policing, healthcare expenses, and other costs to society related to the use of guns that are used primarily to kill people.”
I would guess that 99.99% of all guns and ammo sold in this country have never harmed anyone.
On the other hand tobacco is almost sure to cause heart disease or cancer if used long enough, and the harm is self inflicted. Comparing guns and ammo to tobacco is not a fair comparison.
- Small Town Liberal - Tuesday, Oct 9, 12 @ 7:01 pm:
- is that legalizing to take the money away from gangs will just give them legal money to use while they comtimue criminal activities. -
Yes, because I imagine the Gangster Disciples will be able to compete with Walmart and Walgreens. If that was the case they’d be warring over retail goods and toothpaste.
It really doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand this.
- uncleollies - Thursday, Oct 11, 12 @ 2:15 pm:
ANYONE Who doesnt belong to THE NRA needs to join now! Their VOICE and POLITICAL POWER that they receive from OUR VOTE is the only thing that these political monkees understand and FEAR !otherwise they lose their seat ( job ) They might have to find a job in the privite sector. Then with no political power no job out here for you !
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