More gun stuff
Friday, Dec 21, 2012 - Posted by Rich Miller
* This happens a lot after major nationally publicized incidents involving guns, but the buying appears to be pretty intense…
Background checks for gun sales in Illinois have almost doubled since Friday’s school shootings in Connecticut, according to data from the Illinois State Police.
Gun sellers say some buyers appear concerned about self-defense, but many already own guns and appear to be adding to their collections amid talk of tougher restrictions on gun ownership. Semiautomatic rifles like the AR-15 used in the school shootings last week in Connecticut are generating much of the interest, sellers said. Those guns are being mentioned as the mostly likely target of tougher laws.
More than 12,500 background checks were done in Illinois between Friday, when 28 people were killed at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn., and Tuesday, according to data provided by state police. In comparison, 6,870 checks were done during the same time a year earlier.
The state’s Firearms Transfer Inquiry Program is processing about 2,500 requests a day, compared to about 1,370 a year ago.
* But this is what concerns me…
Sellers said in some cases, people are buying weapons they don’t even know how to use. “It’s all panic buying,” Polhamus said.
My brother pointed this out to me the other day after he’d visited a few southern Illinois gun shops. A whole lot of amateurs who know little to nothing about guns are now stocking up.
* Meanwhile, a couple of pro-gun 2nd Congressional District candidates are retooling their gun messages…
State Sen. Toi Hutchinson, another candidate, has voted in favor of the NRA’s position on various gun measures that have come before state lawmakers more than 90 percent of the time, earning an “A” rating from the organization this year. But Hutchinson told Roll Call this week that while she stands firm on the rights of hunters, she has always supported an assault weapons ban as well as a plan to outlaw high-capacity ammunition magazines. Yet another candidate with a top NRA rating, former Congresswoman Deborah Halvorson, said this week that she may be willing to consider an assault weapons ban.
Hutchinson did not respond to a request for comment. Halvorson could not be reached.
* From Project Vote Smart via Huffpo, here are the gun rankings for the Illinois delegation. The higher the rating, the more the person is for gun control. So, at “A+” rating means strong anti-gun positions…
* Mother Jones took a look at Bill Clinton’s assault weapons ban, which Rahm Emanuel helped pass…
The assault weapons ban proved of little value where it counted most: on the street. The legislation prohibited the manufacture, possession, transfer, and sale of assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition clips, yet it defined assault weapons in a manner that would allow gun manufacturers to skirt the ban without much trouble. It exempted 650 firearms and grandfathered in weapons and ammo clips produced or purchased before the enactment of the ban. “It was better to get what we got than nothing,” the former Justice Department official says. And the measure’s prohibition on high-capacity clips was probably its most effective provision. “Ultimately, the 1994 ban was almost meaningless because it was so defectively drafted,” says Tom Diaz, a senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, who worked for the House subcommittee on crime in 1994.
The law did little to affect gun violence. Prior to the ban, nervous gun owners and dealers stocked up on assault weapons and the high-capacity clips, and afterward gun manufacturers made cosmetic changes to semiautomatic weapons so these guns would not violate the new law. And the 1994 federal ban was passed with a built-in 2004 expiration date. When the time ran out, then-President George W. Bush did nothing to extend the law. During the 2008 presidential campaign, Obama called for reviving the assault weapons ban. But after he became president, his administration took no steps to do so. Guns were too hot (politically) to touch.
The .223 caliber Bushmaster AR-15 semiautomatic rifle reportedly used by Adam Lanza in the Newtown shootings was the sort of weapon gun control advocates had hoped to prohibit with the 1994 ban. Yet even though the state of Connecticut passed its own assault weapons ban, modeled on the 1994 federal law but with no sunset clause, this particular gun was legal in the state because Bushmaster had made a slight and insignificant change in its design to evade restrictions.
* More stuff…
* Rahm Emanuel Blasts NRA, Calls for New Gun Laws: “I fully expect the NRA to do exactly what they always do,” Emanuel said at a press conference at Chicago City Hall, where he called for a ban on assault weapons of the kind used in the Newtown killings. “I expect the Washington gun lobby and the gun lobbies around to do exactly what they always do, which is to try to apply political pressure so you ignore the overwhelming public opinion.”
* Mayors push for assault ban: More than 20 mayors and local leaders are backing the effort, and Emanuel was flanked by eight mayors on Thursday from several cities and towns, including Gary, Ind., another community plagued by gun violence. Diamond Mayor Teresa Kernc, who leads the village of roughly 2,500 people about 50 miles south of Chicago, is also backing the effort.
* List of mayors in Emanuel’s new group
* Gun Violence Plays Heavily in Illinois Special: Finally, there’s the large roster of Democrats seeking the seat, including two previously backed by the Illinois State Rifle Association. Given the unwieldy field, any one of the seven better-known candidates — including those two — could win the Feb. 26 primary. “It’s going to make a difference in the Illinois delegation, certainly,” said Richard Pearson, ISRA’s executive director. “One 435th of a vote? We’ll take it.”
* More funerals in Newtown
- amalia - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 10:20 am:
watch Wayne LaPierre in the presser right now. tone deaf.
- Downstater - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 10:26 am:
Obama formed a blue ribbon committee headed by Biden to look at gun legislation. A good way to have nothing substantial happen. And Harry Reid is going to do anything in the senate, either. As pointed out above, Obama has done nothing on guns in the last 4 years.
- amalia - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 10:31 am:
the media is a silent enabler and a co conspirator according to Wayne LaPierre. stunning.
- Anonymous - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 10:36 am:
*** “I expect the Washington gun lobby and the gun lobbies around to do exactly what they always do, which is to try to apply political pressure so you ignore the overwhelming public opinion.” ***
Overwhelming public opinion? Really? I wonder how Rham would explain the massive uptick in gun purchases?
Ironically, I expected the Chicago gun control crowd to do exactly what they always do, which is respond with a knee-jerk reaction that puts another burden on legal gun owners, but does not address the root problem.
- L Y O - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 10:36 am:
Only A’s & D’s? Once again showing no middle ground in the gun debate. I give myself a B- for no particular reason……
- Ken_in_Aurora - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 10:37 am:
=== the media is a silent enabler and a co conspirator according to Wayne LaPierre. stunning. ===
Actually, I and many others agree.
- Control - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 10:38 am:
I happen to own some guns, even an “assault rifle” and I get a lot of pleasure shooting targets and plinking. I keep my guns locked up in a safe, except for the one hidden in my house in case of an emergency. But now the conversation has turned to turning me, and the majority of gun owners who are safe like me, into criminals because we enjoy the sport of hunting and shooting.
I don’t need to justify having a 30-round clip because it isn’t illegal I don’t use it to cause others pain. By outlawing these things you aren’t going to curb violence. Not to sound cliche, but control is more about control then guns.
- amalia - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 10:41 am:
the NRA is almost hilarious. a database for the mentally ill, but they oppose databases that have to do with guns and sharing information between law enforcement agencies, and funding those agencies. perhaps we will find out that Wayne is a sort of Stephen Colbert character cause he cannot be taken seriously with today’s comments.
as for demonizing gun owners, well, that’s certainly not me cause my husband is an awesome person! and a good shooter.
- Ken_in_Aurora - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 10:48 am:
=== the NRA is almost hilarious. a database for the mentally ill ===
Rich, do we have to continue taking amalia’s insults such as this? She (?) continually attempts to turn discussions into fights with her cracks against gun owners.
- Ken_in_Aurora - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 10:50 am:
Ooops - amalia, I owe you an apology, I thought you were referring to the NRA as being a database of the mentally ill. Sorry!
- Rich Miller - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 10:54 am:
Ken, you may need to take a breath here and stand down for a while. Thanks for apologizing, but you gotta think before you hit that “Say it!” button.
- Wensicia - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:00 am:
“The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun,” — LaPierre
So, we’ll keep supplying bad guys with guns. It’s up to you good guys, educators included, to buy more guns to keep up with and try to stop them.
- Formerly Known As... - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:04 am:
@Control - just learned the other day John Kerry has an “assault rifle” too. Apparently, you are not alone. Who knew?
@RahmEmanuel - way to go. Never mind the fact you closed 1/2 of Chicago’s mental health clinics, that you are presiding over a skyrocketing murder rate and reduction in police force, or that CPD Homicide Reports show more murders were committed in your city last year with knives, bludgeons and “fists” than “assault weapons”.
Just trot out the cameras and bluster some more, Rahm. “Never let a good crisis go to waste”, right?
- USMCJanitor - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:06 am:
Wensicia
If you read sites like Police one or any of the police sites that analyze active shooters they have found that mass shootings stopped my on-duty police average 14 deaths. Shootings stopped in public by off-duty police or CCW citizens avg 2.4 deaths.
The difference is response time. even 3-5 minutes is a GOOD response time. You cant keep evil people from doing evil things. All you can do is meet force on force.
How we allow for and provide the force to meet and stop the violent offender is up for debate.
- walkinfool - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:08 am:
Wayne LaPierre’s press conference was a terrible disappointment. The NRA had a chance to be seen as a partner and a leader. Instead, LaPierre passed over the opportunity to talk about expanding background checks and waiting periods to more gun sales, which more than 70% of his own NRA members support, in favor of playing the victim, and expanding the fear of monsters across America.
I believe that most gun owners, and a large majority of his own members, are for reasonable regulation in the name of public safety. LaPierre is the one out of touch, and should be replaced by his own members.
Alternatively, many might copy George Bush Sr.(a true hero and patriot), since he ripped up his own NRA membership card, when LaPierre defended unrestricted gun ownership as necessary to protect ourselves from “jackbooted government thugs.” Well, at least he’s got a consistent viewpoint — he’s just more extreme than the majority of Americans and, IMO, gun owners.
- Cheryl44 - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:10 am:
I’m sorry rank and file members, but the NRA is good for nothing except scaring people into buying more guns. It used to be better than Wayne LaPierre would lead me to believe. It is supremely tone deaf for the organization to let that lunatic be their spokesperson.
- Skirmisher - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:13 am:
Wayne LaPierre and Ralph Emmanual (And others like them) are two excellent reasons why we have never managed to come up with sensible firearms laws in this country. If Obama is at all serious about his initiative, he will go out of his way to staff his commission with folks who know firearms but have never had an ax to grind on either extreme. Won’t be easy but it is not impossible.
- Ken_in_Aurora - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:13 am:
Cheryl, can you honestly disagree with his assertation that our providing armed security for malls and sports stadiums but not schools is out of whack?
- wordslinger - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:16 am:
–But now the conversation has turned to turning me, and the majority of gun owners who are safe like me, into criminals because we enjoy the sport of hunting and shooting. –
How’s that? Any proposal I’ve read is going forward, nothing retroactively.
- bored now - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:18 am:
what mall has armed security? more to the point, what mall has TAX-PAYER provided armed security?
i assume that the nra didn’t offer to pay for this…
- shore - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:18 am:
only 3 moderates on that list. gross.
- TheGoodLieutenant - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:23 am:
@ Cheryl44, was it the NRA that scared all of these people into the latest buying frenzy? They have been silent up to now. It seems that there are much better salesmen out there, and they the ones that came out on day one with a call for new restrictions.
- Anonymous - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:29 am:
=How’s that?=
word, just yesterday, you seemed to be intimating that we were all somehow complicit in the shootings. Therefore, you shouldn’t be surprised that those who own guns now feel that others are trying to label them as criminals for legally owning guns.
And with regard to the “massive uptick in sales” that Anonymous 10:36 mentioned, I wouldn’t be surprised if more people were buying now because of the reaction of some calling for disallowing purchases and/or taking law-abiding citizens guns away rather then they’re being a bunch of scare men and women.
- Anonymous - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:30 am:
I apologize for all the typos in my post. Late night.
- downstate commissioner - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:30 am:
Mixed feelings about Wayne LaPierre-yes, sometimes, he is over the top with some of the stuff he says-but he is paid to be. Ralph Emmanual is over the top the other way, but he is a politician. Somewhere in between these two is a middle ground.
I personally believe that registration is the first step towards confiscation, which has happened too many times in the world. On the other hand, while I sympathize with those who want to own a weapon just like the military uses, we, as citizens, don’t need 30 round magazines. And for defensive work, 10 rounds should be enough in a handgun.
As for the media, when they cover something like this, I never believe ANYTHING they say the first day-its all rumor, dirt, and half-facts. (The shooter’s mother was a teacher-wrong; it was a kindergarten class, wrong-1st graders;etc, etc.) The media certainly shares its share of the blame for the sensationalism (glorification?) of crimes of this type. Is it news-yes; is it entertainment? It shouldn’t be, but the press treats it as such…
- Ken_in_Aurora - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:31 am:
=== How’s that? Any proposal I’ve read is going forward, nothing retroactively. ===
I believe his point was that shooters are being demonized. But you knew that.
- Irish - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:33 am:
I would guess that many of the “assault rifles” being purchased right now are being bought for two reasons. Some people who have thought about owning one some day are buying them while they still can. The second reason is that if a law is passed that no more of these guns can be sold in this country their monetary worth will increase dramatically. Typically if you announce that something will no longer be available, there is a rush to get one. Many of these guns will never be shot or if they are, it will be very little. They will go into storage and become part of someone’s estate.
I did not want to comment on this issue because I feel that those that are choosing to be very vocal on this at this time are using what happened at Sandy Hook to further their own agenda. I turn off the news every time the reporters start up with the rhetoric. As I have said in the past this is not solely about guns. There are so many other things at play here. Yet the anti gun lobby is foaming at the mouth to strike while the iron is hot and are using this terrible tragedy to get free publicity for their agenda. And they should be ashamed. And so should Rahm, Quinn and all the other politicians and MSM that are doing the same.
I see that one of the networks is putting on a special this weekend called the American Gun. It will be all about the victims of shootings that come into Stroger hospital in Chicago. And of cxourse that has everything to do with what happened in Sandy Hook. It has nothing to do with gangs, or the admistration decision that broke up the gangs in public housing and purposely scattered them throughout all the rival gang areas in Chicago.
Putting a label of “The American Gun” on gang violence in Chicago is exactly what is wrong with the gun control discussion in this country. Let’s not have rational discussion that leads to something that works for both sides. Let’s just plaster the airwaves with posters and rhetoric and hope our side wins. Doesn’t matter that it doesn’t solve anything.
- downstate commissioner - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:40 am:
Also, Word @ 11:16 Actually , I heard Nancy Pelosi the other morning say that a new bill would go after not only new stuff, but also the stuff that was out there. Obviously, I paraphrased it, but her intent was clear…
- Anonymous - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:40 am:
=And so should Rahm, Quinn and all the other politicians and MSM that are doing the same.=
Pffft. Not to mention China and Vlad.
- wordslinger - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:54 am:
DC, I haven’t seen anything like that but I don’t see how it would be humanly possible to confiscate the nearly 300 million guns already out there.
Also, I said society as a whole is responsible for easy access to guns and ammunition. Since that is legal, it’s not criminal by definition.
I’ve seen a couple of buyback proposals or voluntary turn-ins, but nothing compulsory.
The NRA proposal is armed guards in every school in the land, for which LaPierre said Congress should “appropriate whatever is necessary” to pay for.
Anyone have a problem with funding this solution with a surtax on ammunition? Because it’s not really a proposal without a funding source.
- Ken_in_Aurora - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 11:56 am:
=== Anyone have a problem with funding this solution with a surtax on ammunition? Because it’s not really a proposal without a funding source. ===
I’m not sure that I would have a problem with that, assuming the tax were reasonable and not a money grab for unrelated uses.
- dupage dan - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 12:13 pm:
I have suggested that the armed guards be volunteer retired military/law enforcement. I could see alot of them stepping up and offering their services. The practicalities may prevent widespread use of that but I think it worthwhile. I would be willing to pay for the cost of armed guards in schools - many ways to do it but a surtax on ammo wouldn’t be a problem.
My other suggestion was to put heavy screen on first floor windows of schools to prevent or slow down the bad guys from gaining entrance.
- amalia - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 12:28 pm:
I think that school safety planning is fine. the NRA would have been wise to leave it at that. also, I’m surprised that Fox and MSNBC did not have Asa on tv. why not? CNN did.
but back to the terrible NRA recommendations. Wayne told us about the need for personal responsibility for safety, that at this very moment there are copycat killers out there and disasters that could come and cause a nightmare of victimization. in other words, go out and buy a gun. it’s a bit like shaming a victim that they could have done more.
also, while the program for individual school safety is good, what about kids on the streets? what about little kids in Englewood walking to and from school? it’s not just about school shootings.
and what about adults? we count too. you cannot have armed guards everywhere. and the “arms race” that is suggested for all of us is troubling. especially because the NRA has not just for once and for all come out and endorsed a background check for the sale of every gun. I’m tired of the gun industry complex that makes money from guns that flow done to those who are criminals.
- Judgment Day - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 12:30 pm:
The comments by Wayne LaPierre - over the top, as expected. OTOH, on guns, the American people look to be voting with their feet and their wallets. But we’ll see if that lasts.
As far as the gun registration database goes, well it might be useful IF it’s done correctly, which given that it would be a State of Illinois project, is probably doubtful. And then we might again run up against the issue of having an Attorney General who initially wanted to release the FOID owners data to one and all - what would she do with a weapons database?
Had an opportunity to talk quite extensively to someone who travels quite a bit to ‘exotic’ (read: Dangerous) locales and is very proficient with an expansive variety of weaponry. Made the following observations:
First, we’ve got a tendency to create ’secured bastions’ of different places, in particular elementary schools. But then everybody inside is kept disarmed. We don’t learn our history.
Here’s the problems he observed. It’s like a very large ’safe room’, only with several secured entrances/exits. The problem is that IF the armed bad guy(s) get inside, the ’secured bastion’ is easily turned into a potential killing zone (”few ways in, few way out, only the bad guy(s) got weapons. Not good”).
Also, many recently produced handguns (high quality) have 13 round capacity, not 10 round.
Next, 15 round (or so) clips are plenty. 30 round (and higher) mags are too bulky, and really are more like ‘gun porn’. Somebody who actually uses the weapons will tell you that you are actually better off with carrying a number of 15 round mags, than the big capacity mags (those big things weigh too much, also).
Lastly, he’s really concerned about one thing. We (society) just laid down a roadmap for the bad guys out there (and they’re still around) who want to ‘hurt’ the USA. We’ve told them the locations to target (they’re not stupid, actually pretty smart). (”Remember the lessons learned from a theater in Moscow.”).
That’s why we need to take the security proposals for having some weapons in elementary schools seriously.
- Former Downstater - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 12:33 pm:
Hell, why stop at schools. I’d feel safer with an armed guard at my dry cleaner, gym, library, every CTA car, doctor’s officer, diner, movie theater, grocery store, barber shop, etc. Maybe I even want one in my car.
- Anonymous - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 12:39 pm:
I had a feeling someone would eventually mention an “arms race.” I hope it’s not because of my observations regarding China’s and Putin’s jumping on the band wagon, amalia, hoping that Obama will disarm U.S. citizens.
If that is the case, I might be tempted to start a call for say, China to evaporate its waters since they have no qualms about drowning peasant populations in the name of “progress.”
- Judgment Day - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 12:41 pm:
One other thought. If we really want a gun/weapons database, have the NRA create and maintain the database - not just for their members, but for all guns. Sort of like having ICANN (Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers. They are the private sector, non-profit corporation created in 1998 to assume responsibility for IP addresses), only for gun/weapons registration.
I’m sure nobody will like the idea, but it’s likely one of only a few, if not the only workable solution.
- amalia - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 12:43 pm:
@anonymous 12:39 sounds like what I read about in college on nuclear weapons. took some smart leaders to stand down lots.
- Norseman - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 12:45 pm:
“=== the media is a silent enabler and a co conspirator according to Wayne LaPierre. stunning. ===
Actually, I and many others agree.”
Wow, co-conspirator, really? Like we see some many times after a horrific tragedy, people are responding with irrational emotion based upon one’s own belief system to try to explain what often-times are unexplainable events. I can’t help but believe one of the motivating factors behind some of these mass shootings is the desire to “go out with a bang.” The shooting would serve as the perpetrator’s place in history or more aptly - infamy. While I wonder if it would help prevent some future mass shootings to withhold that notoriety from these sick people by not publishing their identities, I know that is irrational to expect that to happen given the public’s desire to know all the details about a tragedy and the media’s mission to respond to that desire.
Like Rich says so many times, “take a breath” before you start throwing out inflammatory words.
- Ken_in_Aurora - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 12:54 pm:
@ - Norseman - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 12:45 pm:
amalia took LaPierre’s comments out of context when she called them co-conspirators. The actual quote is:
“And throughout it all, too many in our national media … their corporate owners … and their stockholders … act as silent enablers, if not complicit co-conspirators.”
And I was stating overall agreement with NRA’s statement today, not with amalia’s post. Don’t over parse people’s posts at the cost of context.
- Brian - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 1:02 pm:
re: gun registration
Canada passed, implemented, and later repealed a registration system for long guns, from 1995-2012. Specific objections to the system (apart from civil liberties ones), included cost overruns, security of confidential records, and general effectiveness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Firearms_Registry
- Endangered Moderate Species - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 1:18 pm:
Our environments mold our opinions. As a rural Illinoisan I cannot comprehend how the government would formulate a successful plan to confiscate existing guns after declaring them illegal. There are many law-abiding citizens whom would shoot from their porch if they felt a government agent was coming to take their gun. The gun is viewed by many, as the tool of last resort to protect family and property and they are not going to give them up without a fight.
- Slick Willy - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 1:20 pm:
*** And with regard to the “massive uptick in sales” that Anonymous 10:36 mentioned, I wouldn’t be surprised if more people were buying now because of the reaction of some calling for disallowing purchases and/or taking law-abiding citizens guns away rather then they’re being a bunch of scare men and women. ***
That was me. I understand the reason for the uptick in sales. It was my attempt to point out that there is no “overwhelming public opinion” for more gun control, as Rham implied. If there was, the gun sales would not be happening at this pace.
Is there any chance that this discussion will ever be had without excessive emotion and/or tired platitudes? Not easily done, given the subject, but it sure would help move things along if the Pols would start moving in that direction.
- RNUG - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 1:23 pm:
If we look at Illinois as an example, it appears that strict gun laws in and of themselves don’t always seem to work. And there is the recent 7th decision saying at least one of IL laws (total ban on carry) is too strict. I’m also not going to cite specific stastics but look at it from a lay person’s perspective from just reading news reports.
But if you exclude Chicago (which I’ll get to in a minute), things seem to be on a fairly even keel although there are also shootings in other cities and places around the State. Most of those shootings seem to be primarily “one on one” or “two on one” incidents. Investigations of those situations usually end up with a drug or other gang related motive, often its revenge for an attack or perceived slight.
When you look at Chicago specifically, again, most of the shootings seem to gang related or drug related which, I suppose, is pretty much the same thing.
I’ve ignored the use of guns in (non-drug / gang related) robberies since the shootings that happen during robberies are usually not pre-meditated but either the result of panic or an accident.
Then there are the outlier gun shooting incidents, generally suicide or accidental. If I can say so without getting in trouble with the mental health advocates, I think a normal (whatever that is) person would conclude someone commiting suicide is what the lay person would consider insane. Accidental is apparently just that; maybe better training would lower that rate.
I’ve read and followed all the links both Rich and a lot of other reports have posted re mass shootings, motivations, research, etc., trying to make sense of the whole thing. At the end of the day, it seems that there was always a social issue of “not fitting in” or some mental health issue.
Realizing coorelation is not always caustaion, it still seems that there are two big issues most people are not touching or only gingerly approaching: gang violence and mental health.
If we as a society want to “solve” the problem of “gun violence” nationally, all the issues need to be tackled. To reiterate:
* gang violence
* illegal drugs
* mental health
* gun control
I’ll note that there are currently a lot of laws on the books aimed at controlling all the above items. If we have all these laws and are still having the problems, it seems the laws don’t work, or at least don’t work as hoped. Are even more laws going to solve the problem? Or should we go back to root causes, things like home environment, education, poverty, etc.?
I only see one (gun control) of the four areas identified above being widely discussed for action. Putting aside the whole “gun hater” / “gun lover” issue, could it be that the reason gun control gets discussed is because it is the CHEAPEST solution? Solving all the other problems would cost big bucks, whereas gun control is just pass a new law and forget about it until the next time.
- Dozer - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 1:29 pm:
From Word:
==How’s that? Any proposal I’ve read is going forward, nothing retroactively==
Then you must be hiding under a rock.
“Cuomo floated the idea of confiscation or possibly a mandatory buy-back program…”
The Governor of New York is contemplating CONFISCATION or an Australian mandatory buyback program for pennies on the dollar.
Forget the Second Amendment, let’s skip straight to gutting the 4th and confiscate property. Then let’s wipe our feet on the 5ths due process clause.
You want to know why there are empty shelves at gun stores, look no further. You want to know why there are now 500,000 new guns in the hands of Americans in the last 4 days? Look no further.
You can have your righteous indignation, but when Governors and Mayors and others start talking about stripping people of their private property, you have crossed into a whole new realm.
I for one hope you guys push this kinda thing. I hope you go for the throat to tell gun owners to surrender any semi-auto handgun, rifle or shotgun. I hope to introduce a law that says you want to treat all of us like sex offenders and have to check in with our local cops like a parolee.
Why? Because you just kicked guys like @Control. And when they have the simple facts shown to them that they could be a felon just by owning a gun and getting out of bed, you just woke up a lot of people. There has been an underlying sentiment that many did not choose to want to own a gun. But now that they fear that RIGHT is going to be taken away, they are acting, and they will pay attention. They are not buy shotguns for home defense. They are not buying small handguns or big revolvers (some maybe expecting the carry law) they are buying everything many of you are demonizing as to why anyone would need a — x x x x. You just woke up the “soccer” moms of the gun owners.
- Elmo - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 1:33 pm:
@Rahm…Chicago doesn’t have an assault weapon problem. Chicago has a Chicago problem.
- Dozer - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 1:40 pm:
Oh and Word — now They want to ban all firearm that have clips that hold more than 6 bullets.
That means that the 1911 45 becomes illegal. A gun that is over 100 years old now makes you a felon.
So why wouldn’t we agree to 10? Because it’s never enough for you guys. Now it’s 6, so any modern semi-auto is no more than a fancy revolver.
If they would get away with it, they would leave us with nothing more than flintlocks.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/cuomo-working-tougher-gun-laws-state-article-1.1224026
please Lisa, Appeal Moore/Shepard to SCOTUS today. PLEASE.
- Former Downstater - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 1:41 pm:
Then I guess Newtown had a Newtown problem, Columbine had a Columbine problem and Aurora had an Aurora problem. What the hell does that even mean?
- RNUG - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 1:48 pm:
Limiting it to 6 would also make my old .22 semi-auto pistol that holds 10 “illegal”
- Rich Miller - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 1:52 pm:
Hey, I don’t mean to be a pain, but I’m shutting down for the holidays today at 5 o’clock, so I really need you to finish your Golden Horseshoe nominations today.
Click here for The Wordslinger Golden Horseshoe Award for Best CapitolFax.com Commenter, and click here for the Best Statewide Officeholder and The Mike McClain Golden Horseshoe Award for Best Statehouse Insider.
Nominations typically come in throughout the evening on these things, but today’s nominations just can’t wait. So get to it, campers. I’ll be announcing the winners at 5 o’clock.
Thanks. Sorry to momentarily divert this thread. Please make your nominations and then continue your discussion.
- Notacop - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 2:00 pm:
@former downstater
“Hell, why stop at schools. I’d feel safer with an armed guard at my dry cleaner, gym, library, every CTA car, doctor’s officer, diner, movie theater, grocery store, barber shop, etc. Maybe I even want one in my car. ”
You have just made the case for concealed carry.
- Rich Miller - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 2:09 pm:
===You have just made the case for concealed carry. ===
No, he didn’t. Armed guards have extensive training.
- Notacop - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 2:14 pm:
===No, he didn’t. Armed guards have extensive training. ===
This is why I support a concealed carry bill that includes a training program before issuing a license.
- Small Town Liberal - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 2:17 pm:
- This is why I support a concealed carry bill that includes a training program before issuing a license. -
Not to split hairs, but I think most concealed carry training programs are about half a day.
I’m guessing armed security guards require more than this.
- Ken_in_Aurora - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 2:24 pm:
=== No, he didn’t. Armed guards have extensive training. ===
I don’t consider 40 hours to be extensive, nor do I consider 40 hours to be out of line for a CCW training requirement.
- Former Downstater - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 2:50 pm:
I don’t want concealed carry, I want an armed guard. Everywhere
- Anonymous - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 3:35 pm:
Rich Miller - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 2:09 pm:
=====
===You have just made the case for concealed carry. ===
No, he didn’t. Armed guards have extensive training. =====
Really? The security guard where I work qualifies once per year. No formal training in-between qualifications. The previous guard admitted that she could barely pass the qualification, and may have been “helped” to get a passing score.
I think you would find that even your average police officer doesn’t have “extensive” firearms training, other than the initial training at the academy. I think you would find that your average police officer (who is not necessarily a firearms enthusiast) only fires his weapon once a year, for qualification.
Maybe Donne Trotter could comment on the extensive training he received?
- wordslinger - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 4:10 pm:
Dozer, you’re right, I looked for it and saw where Gov. Cuomo floated the idea of confiscation.
I really don’t think that’s possible here, and even putting it out is a dumb, distracting idea, even counter-productive as it will probably send more people racing to the gun stores.
But he did it.
- Ken_in_Aurora - Friday, Dec 21, 12 @ 4:15 pm:
Word, I believe Feinstein has also called for confiscation, as has McCarthy - the usual leading lights of reasonable gun control.