House Dems ignored real reform needs
Wednesday, May 6, 2015 - Posted by Rich Miller
* Yesterday’s House “committee of the whole” dealing with workers’ comp was clearly lopsided in favor of injured workers…
For several hours Tuesday, workers who were hurt on the job told legislators how their injuries and loss of income had turned their lives upside down. Some had lost their homes or their retirement and are permanently disabled.
John Coffell, who was hurt on the job in Oklahoma, had to go on food stamps and send his three kids to live with relatives because Oklahoma had cut workers’ compensation benefits.
“There are people just like me here in Illinois that will pay the price if you choose to go down the same path that my state did,” Coffell said.
Republicans criticized the hearing as unbalanced, saying there wasn’t enough input from the business community. They also said they weren’t even proposing some of the changes Democrats were criticizing, such as cutting the amount of benefits workers with legitimate workplace injuries receive.
That last point is crucial and correct. Yes, it was good to finally hear from actual working men and women, but the Republicans’ argument was well made.
* Tribune…
Laurie Summers, a nurse who described being injured at a workplace in Indiana, said she was at the Capitol to explain “why I would never recommend anyone to work in the state of Indiana,” citing its workers’ compensation laws.
Employers who pay into the system were represented only briefly, when a pair of panelists from the Illinois Manufacturers’ Association urged some changes.
Greg Baise, president and CEO of the manufacturers group, said he wants medical costs under workers’ compensation to be lowered, contending that coverage in Illinois pays thousands more for typical procedures like hernia and knee surgery compared with private or government health insurance plans.
“Quite frankly, we may not want to be Indiana when it comes to the value that we place on certain injuries like the loss of a body part,” Baise said. “I would not recommend that. But we do want to be competitive so that the high cost of workers’ compensation does not drive companies out of this state.”
Baise is right.
* More…
Although Illinois has dropped from third to seventh for states with high workers’ compensation rates after reforms in 2011, it’s still higher than its neighbors, including a rate more than double Indiana’s. He said the higher rates are, the more likely jobs will continue to move out of state.
“Ask the families in Danville, ask the families in Blue Island, Illinois, ask the families in the Quad Cities that lost jobs,” Baise said. “Those companies have moved to other states.”
Even with 2011’s reforms which reduced costs by more than $400 million, Baise said the state has more to do in reducing fees to doctors and hospitals to put them on par with Medicare and private insurers. He said Illinois’ unlimited medical benefits are unsustainable.
“There’s no such limitation in that,” he said. “Chiropractic visits, physical therapy and others, we think there ought to be limitations on those and it would bring down medical costs.”
The other issue facing businesses is when someone aggravates an old injury while working. Right now, workers only need to show a one percent cause of injury from work to sustain a claim.
* Greg Hinz before the hearing…
(I)n this year’s Springfield fighting, changes in workers’ comp are considered the low-hanging fruit, much more achievable than, say, term limits for lawmakers, “right to work” legislation, limits on union political contributions or huge budget cuts, which Rauner also wants.
I thought the very same thing.
Oops.
* House Republican Leader Jim Durkin delivered a letter to Speaker Madigan last night asking him to call a second committee of the whole “that focuses solely on the impact workers’ compensation reform would have on employers and job creators in Illinois.”
- walker - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:18 am:
Durkin has played this professionally and responsibly all along.
Madigan overplayed his hand on this one. He should have thrown in a few more pro-reform testifiers to appear more balanced.
- Politix - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:19 am:
Was yesterday’s CotW not the time to hear from employers and job creators on impact?
I’m starting to see a pattern where Republicans cry fowl when their side doesn’t get enough supporting testimony. If so many of your constituents want a say, where are they???
- MrJM - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:20 am:
“changes in workers’ comp are considered the low-hanging fruit”
“much more achievable”
“I thought the very same thing. Oops.”
But even after yesterday’s House “committee of the whole”, that may still be true. Unfortunately, the implications of that would be almost inconceivably grim.
– MrJM
- Not it - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:20 am:
Why “oops”?
- Bill White - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:21 am:
If insurer profits are put on table to be regulated and the 2011 changes accepted as a down payment from employees, I’m sure a “shared sacrifice” scenario can be achieved.
However, anyone who uses the phrase
“job creators” should go sit in a penalty box for a while.
- Ghost - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:22 am:
Doctors offices and hospitals have 2 rates. The insurance rate; and the uninsured rate which is always way higher; 40-70% higher! For the most part they rarely collect that higher fee, its like manufacturer suggested price in retail. Nothing ecer sells at that amount
. A basic reform would be to limit what can be charged to the rate which is chsrged to insurance companies…. And/or allow the business to select and negotiate payment rates with providers.
- Peoria Guy - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:22 am:
Worker’s comp in Illinois is ridiculous. The amount of fraud is stunningly high.
We need W/C laws in this country, but businesses get regularly screwed in Illinois. It is the biggest issue for manufacturing in Illinois
- Soccermom - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:23 am:
I don’t mean to head down the single-anecdote road, but Soccersis had an horrific workers comp experience out in Cali. She stumbled and fell (in her classroom). She put out her hand to break her fall, and wound up with one of those nasty elbow breaks.
Because it was a workers comp injury, and because the workers comp rates in Cali are lower than specialty surgeons will accept, she couldn’t find anyone to fix it. It was beyond the capabilities of a general surgeon, and none of the specialists would do it. Finally she got clouted into a specialty surgeon’s practice, but it took a long time, was quite painful, and extended her recovery time significantly.
Clearly, there have been some serious problems with fraudulent workers comp claims, but we shouldn’t make honest injured people pay for those problems going forward.
- Old and Tired - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:26 am:
Where is the insurance reform question in all of this? An insurance company is the bottlneck in all of this.
This is an area of needed reform, sure, but simply changing fee schedules will not solve it, and adding a causation requirement DEFINITELY won’t solve it- unless of course letting injured workers become indigent is “reform.”
Are insurance companies not on the hook because they are so powerful compared to the lowly injured worker? Also, the “business’ moving to other states” argument is just as pernicious here as when it is used to advocate for RTW or lower minimum wage. Personally, I don’t want Illinois to look like Mississippi.
- Rich Miller - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:26 am:
===Personally, I don’t want Illinois to look like Mississippi. ===
Don’t argue like a child.
- Qui Tam - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:28 am:
“that focuses solely on the impact workers’ compensation reform would have on employers and job creators in Illinois.”
I wonder if this would also include high-dollar insurances companies.
- Wordslinger - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:28 am:
It still could be low-hanging fruit and give Rauner his face-saving out. Just means the docs will take a haircut.
- Not quite a majority - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:28 am:
I understand the upset on the part of the GOP and the ‘job creators’ but this was a Committee of the Whole, not a specific bill. The Gov has been touring the state making stump speeches worthy of a GOP primary. I think this was the ‘counter’ to those speeches. I would wait and see what the final bill (which has always been ‘agreed’ in the past) looks like before I see the need for pitchforks and torches to storm the castle.
- A realistic citizen - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:32 am:
So what if Illinois is one of the most expensive states in the country for worker’s comp. Is that any reason for businesses not to locate in Illinois? Naaaaa.
So what if Cook County is the worst venues for litigation in the country. Is that any reason not to locate in Illinois? Naaaa.
Ask not what is wrong with business….ask what is wrong with the state.
- Bill White - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:33 am:
== Because it was a workers comp injury, and because the workers comp rates in Cali are lower than specialty surgeons will accept ==
Here is a suggestion - if an injured employee is covered by an employer provided ACA compliant group health plan - then the only medical pay issue to be sent into the workers comp system is responsibility for deductibles and co-pays
- permanent partial disability - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:34 am:
What a circus!
All witnesses except the IMA duo had 4 weeks notice of the hearing. The IMA duo had 4 days. Half the Illinois injured workers came from the lawyer who bungled his claim that a billion dollars in premium savings were not returned to employers.
If Pinnochio awards were given out yesterday we would run out of forests.
No wonder Illinois is in such pathetic shape these days!
- out of touch - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:36 am:
No one disputes that w/c costs are high. But the argument that “legitmate injuires won’t have reduced benefit” under a cauasation standard is incorrect. The benefits wouldn’t be reduced, they would be eliminated for some injured workers. If the employer or their doctor (to whom they require the injured worker to see) determines that an injury that occurred in the workplace resulted more from a degenerative spinal issues than it did from the workplace lifting that triggered the injury (for example), then w/c benefits can be denied. Causation standards would have likely given insurers grounds for denial of benefits for some of the injured workers that testified yesterday. Where would that leave those workers?
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:37 am:
Sometimes lessons are taught, but will those lessons be learned?
- Mama - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:37 am:
Illinois needs a physical test that would weed out the fraudulent workers comp. claims. Anyone who files for workers comp should be given a standard physical test to see if he/she has a physical injury bad enough to warrant approval of workers comp.. Problem solved. The test will cost money, but it should be much cheaper than paying workers comp..
- Gooner - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:38 am:
I don’t think there can be any doubt that worker’s comp is excessive in Illinois. More than any other factor, it is the thing that drives business from Illinois. The excess also provides nearly no benefit to most Illinois residents.
However trial lawyers still write the big checks to Democrats. Even the ones that do not handle WC still benefit, since the amount of WC drives the settlement of a third party case. Apparently, those checks do the job.
- A guy - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:40 am:
=== walker - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:18 am:
Durkin has played this professionally and responsibly all along.
Madigan overplayed his hand on this one. He should have thrown in a few more pro-reform testifiers to appear more balanced.===
Agreed Walk, I’m just not really sure why he did this. I can’t get my mind to think he didn’t see a risk in this. How many people are on food stamps because companies that have provided jobs in towns for generations have left? There are plenty of heart-tugging stories on the other side. Probably more on the job loss side. The idea of bringing in people from Indiana or Oklahoma looks like even more of a sideshow.
Whether unforced or purposeful, this was a rare error by the Speaker. Unless there’s a lot more to this. Head scratcher.
- Gooner - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:42 am:
Ghost has a point too although that is tied more to the third party claims.
When an insured person files suit, they can collect from the defendant not just what their insurer paid, but whatever dollar amount they can get an M.D. to say his services were really worth. “We did the open reduction for $1,000 from BCBS, but our real rate is $5,000 so give the plaintiff $5,000.” And that’s just the line for meds. On top of that, the plaintiff gets pain and suffering, loss of a normal life, etc.
Ghost’s comment goes to the heart of some of the real tort reform we need. Caps are not necessary. Stuff like this would be necessary.
- Wordslinger - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:43 am:
Realistically, citizen, the Illinois’ economy is the fifth largest among the 50 states and the Chicago metro economy is the fourth largest in the world.
Shouldn’t your handle be Alternative Reality Citizen?
- Soccermom - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:47 am:
Bill White — yeah, it was so perplexing. I thought the whole point of health insurance was, you know, to get health care.
My bro-in-law had the same issue. He tripped on a piece of broken sidewalk and tore his achilles tendon. (Side note — my husband and all of his siblings have popped their achilles tendons.) There was an incredible bureaucratic delay while his employer and his insurance argued about whether it was a workers comp injury, as he was on his way to work when it happened. It took weeks, during which he couldn’t walk and his leg healed badly, requiring further surgery.
This is just nuts. If we could reform nonsense like that, we would lead the country. But just cutting rates without addressing the needs of honest working people who get injured on the job — that’s plain wrong.
- A guy - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:48 am:
WS, and shouldn’t yours be Sword Swinger? lol
- A guy - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:51 am:
===(Side note — my husband and all of his siblings have popped their achilles tendons.)===
I am now worried about the Soccerkids playing soccer! Just kidding, still smitten, hope everyone is OK. This is serious business, but there is a balance that needs to be reached to be competitive here.
- Old and Tired - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:54 am:
Rich, how is saying that I don’t want Illinois to look like Mississippi re: Worker’s Comp “arguing like a child.” So, the claim that “we are not competitive with other states” is just supposed to be taken at face value, without examining the living standards of those states?
- Juvenal - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:57 am:
=== Baise is right. ===
With all due respect, Baise and the governor are hypocrites.
A worker making $26,000 a year who injures his hand and has to have their thumb amputated will only receive $22,800 in compensation.
Do you think Baise, the Governor, or any member of the General Assembly would consider trading their thumb for $22,800?
Anyone who argues that worker’s comp benefits are too generous ought to be more than willing to make that trade. The fact that other state’s are less generous is not a test of fairness: your willingness to make the trade is.
- Juice - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:59 am:
Rich, while Baise made it perfectly clear that the IMA does not believe Illinois should be more like Indiana, the Governor’s office has been a bit muddier. In their comparisons on rates yesterday, and in the turnaround agenda packet, where in discussing AMA guidelines the specifically point to Indiana as a model, and that is most certainly a benefit cut.
- Juvenal - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 10:59 am:
Gooner:
When you are willing to trade your thumb for $22,800, then you can argue benefits are excessive.
Not until then.
- Salty - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:00 am:
When talking WC vs health insurance, keep in mind that WC premiums vary depending on the industry. An employer pays more for manufacturing or construction workers than an office worker.
If we shifted treatment from WC to health insurance, then those more dangerous industries would see savings (the decrease in WC would be larger than the increase in health insurance), but less dangerous industries would see a net increase. The question is, should those more dangerous industries pay more since they have more accidents, or should we spread out those costs evenly among all employers?
- TurnaroundWhat - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:01 am:
I’m wondering if people listened to the entire committee. The end clarified, at least in my mind, the point of the exercise. No matter how many changes are made to workers comp, nothing will change unless the insurance companies pass the saving on to employers. They are not.
- Gooner - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:01 am:
Juvenal,
Initially, I don’t think your numbers are right for an amputation.
But moreover, the worker gets that amount whether or not the employer was at fault.
That’s the WC trade off. The total recovery is lower, but the worker does not have to prove fault. In many cases like that there is also a complaint against another party.
Finally, for what amount of money would you have your thumb removed? I can’t think of a price. Neither can most jurors, and that’s why it is not an appropriate standard for computing damages.
- Nick Danger - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:05 am:
It was political theater in its highest form. Madigan makes his point. I don’t think the business community is asking to reduce “benefits” regardless of the rhetoric. In fact, the business community is doing the heavy lifting here, while the state, municipalities and county govs are quietly rooting from the sidelines. Even AG Madigan has publically said some major changes it WC need to happen.
- A realistic citizen - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:05 am:
Word -
According to the BLS, Illinois is 36th in UNemployment. While the State ‘ economy is in the upper half, it’s employment rate is in the lower half.
Denial of the hostile business climate in Illinois is just head in the sand nonsense. Perhaps somebody’s name should be “ostrich”.
- Gooner - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:05 am:
My calculation is a minimum of $38,000.00 (a thumb is 76 weeks).
- walker - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:06 am:
Relocating businesses do report that workers’ comp and tort environment are among the deciding issues for them when choosing between states, while income taxes usually are not.
(Not to say they won’t squeeze whatever they can out of competing states who meet all their other criteria.)
None of the above are as important to them as infrastructure, ability to move goods to market, trained workforce, and supportive business community.
- Ahoy! - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:07 am:
What the House heard was from workers who were hurt on the job, they did not hear employers who pay high workers comp costs because they were not hurt on the job but are still able to claim workers comp in Illinois.
While some might want to reduce the costs for medical providers and payouts that are substantially higher than everywhere else, Illinois isn’t discussing anything that would substantively reduce workers benefits or bring harm to workers.
- Juvenal - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:10 am:
Gooner:
Permanent partial disability for 100% loss of your thumb is 60% of your weekly gross wages for 76 weeks.
And actually, we can and do put a price on these things all of the time, through a field called happiness economics.
Having lost a finger, I can tell you what I would pay to have it back, and it is less than a million dollars but more than $22,800.
To your initial point: Rauner wants causation and a reduction of benefits.
- Team Sleep - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:10 am:
That was a circus. Plain and simple.
I feel sorry for the workers who were hurt. I feel sorry for the smaller employers who are hosed with the high rates. As always, the people who need the true reforms have to watch as the biggest interests in this (the trial lawyers and biz groups) fight it out.
- Gooner - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:12 am:
Juvenal,
Sorry. You were right on the calculation. I forgot to reduce to 60%. My math was based on 76 weeks at 100%.
- Bill White - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:12 am:
@Salty
== If we shifted treatment from WC to health insurance, then those more dangerous industries would see savings (the decrease in WC would be larger than the increase in health insurance), but less dangerous industries would see a net increase. The question is, should those more dangerous industries pay more since they have more accidents, or should we spread out those costs evenly among all employers? ==
That is an interesting question.
I wonder how Canada handles that issue. Or Japan.
- D.P.Gumby - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:14 am:
Don’t see that there was significant discussion of the failure of the insurance companies to actually follow the last deal and reduce rates!!
- Bill White - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:23 am:
@Salty
In Canada (which has universal single payer health care) it is lost wages and disability that drives workers compensation costs rather than medical pay and more risky industries do pay more.
- 47th Ward - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:23 am:
I’m kind of disappointed in Speaker Madigan for the one-sided approach to a complicated issue. I think if he played it straight, he’d have still made his point. Instead, he gave the Republicans a very good reason to dismiss the whole exercise.
If ever we needed a firm, adult hand on the wheel, now is the time. This should be one of those issues where the solution, while unpleasant, is found and implemented.
WC reform is like bitter medicine: it won’t taste any better later on, but you’ll only get sicker the longer you wait to take it.
- 3234 - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:24 am:
A co-worker of mine hurt his knee on the job. Clearly a WC claim and the employer never contested that. He went to his oath and got an order for physical therapy as a first step in treatment. The Doc ordered a knee brace that he was to use for PT. His WC handler put that on hold to get a cheaper price on one. Saves everyone money, right? So after the cheaper brace finally came in, 6 weeks later, he started therapy. The savings on the knee brace was about $150.00 The problem? That 6 week delay cost our employer roughly $6,000.00 in overtime costs to cover his position. Do we need WC reform? Absolutely. But not at the expense of legitimately injured workers and their families.
- 3234 - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:25 am:
“Ortho” not “oath” stupid autocorrect…
- Old and Tired - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:26 am:
@ Salty
You hit the nail on the head, in fact that is the reason WC is set up the way it is. How it is supposed to work is, take the example of a worker injured in a steel refinery.
We have three choices:
a) Leave him to his own devices, likely become indigent because of inability to work.
b) Make the employer pay the costs since they are in the business of making products that are dangerous to produce and therefore should bear this “externality.” They can then pass this cost on in the form of price increase, so the consumers that used dangerous products also bear the costs.
c) Provide him government assistance, which everyone pays for. Even if you don’t use the dangerous to produce products, or even if you run a business that has robust safety measures, YOU will subsidize this other companies profits and dangerous practices.
We are shifting from b) to c) in this country. It may reduce the costs to the business, but everyone else picks up the costs via government assistance progams. At least until the ultra-right abolish those programs too, leaving us with a).
- Wordslinger - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:27 am:
ARC, I’m just conversing on your terms. If your contention is that state policies determine the “economy” and “business climate” then you have to account for GDP.
- Omay - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:31 am:
“I think we’ve heard enough here”
- Dean Wormer
- truthteller - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:32 am:
There appears to be a dismissive attitude toward the problems faced by workers.Why is no one talking about changes that would avoid the difficulties encountered by the former mineworker? Why is that a show? Why is his problem less serious than,say, Caterpillar’s? Even with their alleged high costs, they can afford to pay Oberhelman how many million?
Is his family life being disrupted? Does he have to borrow from his relatives to put food on the table?
As for jobs, I recall when the Republican ‘ pushed through the single sales income tax break for Illinois business. They said it would create hundreds of thousands of jobs. Edgar was the governor then (and not happy about the bill), but he signed it. We are still waiting for the jobs. It’s been two decades. Enough of this job creation b.s.
The fact that 43 states have lower costs doesn’t mean their systems are better. Maybe they need to raise their benefits
- Kodachrome - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:37 am:
The “committee” was a sham. As usual, no adults in the GA, just gamesmanship. The 5 big problems:
I got clued in last year by some attorneys in the field as to the m
1) Insurance companies pocketed a big chunk of whatever savings there were with the prior reforms, although clearly they did not bring the savings that were claimed;
2) injured workers stay off work WAY, WAY longer than non-work injured people for the exact same injuries, in particular back injuries, which are very often significantly based on subjective complaints of pain.
3) Medical providers are paid WAY more in the WC arena than regular group health or Medicare/Medicaid
4) all a worker needs to do to prove a work related injury is that the job is “a” cause - not a major cause, not the main or primary cause, just “a” cause - and all they need to show for that is that it “might or could” be “a” cause. Come on . . . . .
5)Absolute GARBAGE medical facilities whose business plans are based almost completely on jacking the workers comp system, and who directly associate themselves with trial lawyers so that they know the ins and outs of the system.
Anyone who thinks that there is no need for further reform has their head in the sand.
- Anonin' - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:50 am:
All witnesses except the IMA duo had 4 weeks notice of the hearing. The IMA duo had 4 days.
perhaps Mr Denzler would like review restaurant receipts and revise the comment on advance warning.
In the meantime the hearing was aimed at comparing BVR’s quest to become West Indiana with the real Indiana. That was pretty balanced
In the mean time it looks like biz guys are getting jobbed insurance companies —- huge surprise
- econ prof - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 11:54 am:
Let’s look at IL compared to surrounding states. WC insurance rates per $100 of payroll along with national ranking:
IL: $2.35 (7th)
MO: $1.98 (21st)
WI: $1.92 (23rd)
IA: $1.88 (24th)
KY: $1.51 (40th)
IN: $1.06 (50th)
- grumpy - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 12:15 pm:
Comparisons by state seem meaningless. Only a comparison of rates by specific industries adds anything worth considering. Rates vary dramatically depending on the level of risk of jobs, and all states are different. I haven’t seen any data that considers this.
- Robert the Bruce - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 1:30 pm:
Insurance companies, medical providers, and trial lawyers benefit from current law; our only chance might be to pass wc reform as a rider to whatever bill Exelon/ComEd want passed.
- DuPage - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 1:32 pm:
@Gooner 11:01 =In many cases like that there is also a complaint against another party.=
In most cases the WC insurance company has a lien against anything the injured worker collects from another party. $22,800 for a thumb (less the lawyer fees) doesn’t go very far if the employee needs the thumb to do the job. If he/she is out of their job permanently, the results to the ex-employee and their family are extreme. Most of the time, in jobs that can take off a thumb, the thumb is needed to do the job in the first place.
If they are very lucky, they can get a job as a customer greater at a big box store. Most jobs that require screwdrivers, pliers, or anything like that would not be obtainable.
- Juvenal - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 2:00 pm:
Gooner:
See my note.
You only get 60% of your salary for those 76 weeks.
Again, $22,800 for a lost thumb is not much of a get-rich-quick scheme.
If anyone wants to go back to causation, Democrats proffered a bill four years ago to eliminate WC altogether and go back to a fault-based system. Unions were okay with that, but the business community had a panic attack. Why? Because the current system is actually a really, really good deal for business.
- Juvenal - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 2:03 pm:
Grumpy:
Bingo.
You can’t compare a streetsweeper in Kentucky with an ironworker in Chicago.
The bottom line is, the industry watchdogs have seen all of the data, they have recommended premium reductions for Illinois based on the actual risks and costs.
- Filmmaker Professor - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 2:21 pm:
Just curious: does a hospital or medical practice qualify as a “job creator” to the GOP? Didn’t think so.
- Smitty Irving - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 2:50 pm:
Peoria Guy
Thanks for the Reader’s Digest Condensed version. Now, how about some sources? Perhaps, like a doctoral dissertation, you can defend your contention by answering questions from some of our more astute fellow commentators (Oswego Willy, Soccermom, Wordslinger, Retired Nonunion Guy)?
- Grendel Drendall - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 3:05 pm:
Hi Grumpy there’s a comparison for steel manufacturers at chart #7 and 8 in this IPI one, for what it’s worth
https://www.illinoispolicy.org/why-illinois-needs-a-turnaround-in-12-graphics/
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 3:49 pm:
- Smitty Irving -,
Sometimes a drive-by is a drive-by, and some of those times, the ironic comedy of it all is far more fun.
- Peoria Guy - is usually pretty thoughtful…
- Smitty Irving - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 4:01 pm:
OW -
Thanks. Here in Springfield WMAY has a lawyer show and in March they had WC lawyer from NW IN and it seems in a few years IN Wwll be like OK and injured workers will be on the welfare rolls.
- A realistic citizen - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 4:03 pm:
Democrat Pat Quinn may have served up this State’s coup de gras when he signed the bill to reduce the size of civil juries from 12 down to 6. It’s a whole lot easier for a trial lawyer to pull the wool over 6 lay people’s eyes than 12. Get ready to feel this in YOUR wallet as your home owner’s and auto insurance premiums rise, not to mention business insurance premiums.
If that does not convince you Illinois has a “hostile business” and “pro-plaintiff” enviornment, then you must have your head in the sand. - Word
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 4:08 pm:
- Smitty Irving -,
It’s all good, much respect. When you had my name there, I was just responding.
I’ve taken the “wait and see” approach and here’s why;
I don’t know how Rauner finds the visible common ground he chooses to outright ignore.
- Demoralized - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 4:27 pm:
@ARC
Let’s just get rid of civil juries altogether. Better yet, let’s just abolish everything and let the business community dictate what happens.
- Wordslinger - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 4:28 pm:
ARC, that’s right, I and everyone else that produces that $672B GDP, heads in the sand.
But what are you worried about? You’re in the unsupported talking point victim biz, and that’s always booming in some circles.
- econ prof - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 5:29 pm:
==Comparisons by state seem meaningless. Only a comparison of rates by specific industries adds anything worth considering. Rates vary dramatically depending on the level of risk of jobs, and all states are different. I haven’t seen any data that considers this.==
Grumpy, as it was posted by Grendall, the data is there, you’re just choosing to ignore it and make silly arguments with no data to back it up. The fact that in Illinois, you still don’t have to prove that you were hurt on the job to collect workers comp is ludicrous and is rigged for personal injury lawyers to cash in every single time. Business owners are left paying the massive bill.
- Grendel Drendall - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 5:40 pm:
Hi Econ prof, I was wondering why no one was considering that comparison. Do we simply not care or does the IPI have wrong numbers? If those numbers are right with the millions per year in difference that is pretty crazy.
- Grendel Drendall - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 5:44 pm:
Hi Wordslinger, is it an unsupported talking point to say steel manufacturers pay millions more in comp premiums here compared to any border state? Why is no one talking about whether the IPIs numbers are real, and if they are, what does that mean for having steel manufacturers stay here?
- grumpy - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 8:55 pm:
Grendel @ 3:05- Thanks for the reference on comparisons of WC rates in the steel fabrication business (NOT manufacturers). While I dont trust IPI data at all, based on past digging, they do reference the NCCI, a legitimate statistical service. Unfortunately I can’t find the references on their site. IPI admits creating their own interpretation of NCCI data, which certainly makes it suspect, given that they take such strong political advocacy positions.
But the claimed 8% rate difference to Indiana rates certainly merits further explanation, as you say @ 5:44. I wonder if IPI has thrown steel erectors into the mix, comparing rates for Chicago high rise construction against Indiana pole barns to dramatize their point?
- Permanent partial disability - Wednesday, May 6, 15 @ 8:56 pm:
Econ prof wins a Pinnochio. In Illinois you have to prove causation to collect comp benefits. The legal standard is the injury must arise out of and in the course of the employment. The same exact standard as in Indiana.
- Peoria Guy - Thursday, May 7, 15 @ 7:44 am:
In Illinois, you do not have to prove anything. Simply claim you were injured on the job and it is up to the Company to disprove it. Good luck with that.
- Peoria Guy - Thursday, May 7, 15 @ 7:45 am:
Statistically, the heaviest days for claims are Mondays, just after a weekend of doing chores and recreating.
- Permanent partial disability - Thursday, May 7, 15 @ 8:00 am:
Peoria guy wins a Pinnochio for claiming you don’t have to prove a thing to win benefits in Illinois. Add Baise to the Pinnochio award for claiming that proving 1% of the aggravation leads To an award. Both statements have no basis in fact.
- Peoria Guy - Thursday, May 7, 15 @ 8:15 am:
They absolutely do have a basis in fact. When a worker claims an on the job injury, try disproving it. Of course, there are rarely witnesses to the injury.
There are, of course, legitimate injuries and W/C is designed for those. The amount of fraud, however, is massive.
- permanent partial disability - Thursday, May 7, 15 @ 11:20 am:
Peoria Guy, a claimant has to prove his/her side of the case before it can be “disproved.” That is how the system works. Quit proving that you earned your Pinnochio award here.
- Peoria Guy - Thursday, May 7, 15 @ 1:27 pm:
There is no proof required. I wish there were.
The claimant simply goes to his boss and says he hurt his back or knee or whatever on the job. Now you have a W/C claim.
You must not operate in the real world.