41 Comments - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 6:28 am: Since I am not a state employee, I have no problem skimming from the Illinois pension funds to pay for programs that *all* Illinois residents benefit from, like AllKids, the imported prescription drug program etc. If our elected officials in Springfield think it is in the best interest of Illinois not to fund those programs, that is fine with me. If a majority of people in Illinois think differently, they can vote out the decision makers. Democracy, you know. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 7:08 am: 6:28 am I don’t care which party puts off/has put off making the payments, but the citizens of Illinois WILL end up paying for it on the back-end. Pay the minimal requirements now or pay the huge balloon payments later. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 7:13 am: Why do you assume this decision only impacts state employees? In fact, the payments into the pension fund were deferred, with interest, until a later date. That means paying more later - so AllKids, etc. is being paid for with a credit card, and those high-interest payments will be due someday. But since this is your attitude, perhaps the Feds should dip into Social Security some more to pay for spending … oh, wait a minute… Gee, I guess all that’s left will be to raid a few corporate pension funds as well, perhaps through a special tax. Since single-payer healthcare will benefit all in Illinois, and especially older folks, let’s institute a 15% tax on all retirement programs, public and private. To make it easier, we’ll allow employers to dip into their employees retirement savings. After all, it benefits everyone… - Bill - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 7:20 am: Rich, Nice work exposing this Repub front group. I noticed that they didn’t offer any solution to the under funded pension systems that were caused by years of what is now called “raiding’ and “stealing” by Edgar and Thompson. How should we fully fund the systems today when the big Ryan pension give away cost billions of dollars? Raise taxes? Do a 750 style type swap? Cut benefits for loyal employees who have been promised a comfortable retirement? Reforms that prevent highly paid administrators from “doubling up” with end of career bonuses will save millions in the long term without hurting teachers and state employees whose existing contracts remain in tact. Another great job by the Governor, the Speaker, and Senate President to put out a long simmering fire that was smoldering for decades. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 7:43 am: The Repubs did have a solution and it was the “1995 Pention Reform Bill” (by the way they had the majority that year)which set forth a 50 year plan to bring the pentions back to fully funded levels. They learned from everyones past mistakes and said no more. Fast forward to when the Dems have control. What to we get? Out of control spending and a broken promise to the 1995 Pention Reform agreement and thus a $3 billion raid of our pentions. And don’t give us that bologa about reforms this year, those savings whon’t be recognized for 30 years. As for the new group - I say its about time. The Dems thought that this would all blow over before the summer was over and obviously its hasn’t. I hope this group expands and has the resourses to let every person in Illinois know what has happened and how much it is going to cost them. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 7:50 am: I would gladly be a part of this effort if it was non-partisan or bipartisan. I’ll bet thousands of teachers would, too. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 8:04 am: Here is one huge die hard democrat who is down right mad at the dems for doing this to my pension. This is just plain wrong and it is sad that the repubs will be able to make this a campaign issue. I can promise you that members of the union I belong to, one of the largest in the state have a switch after GRod, the Speaker, and Prsident of the Senate. I’ll do my part to help vote them out of office. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 8:11 am: Anon 7:43 Good points. I hope they take it a step further and develop a system like the “no new tax pledge” that legislators have the opp to sign. The only difference here is that they would distribute pledge forms which state that the legislators (and challengers) pledge not to vote for any bills that will raid or skip payments to any of the state five pention programs. AND THEN POST THE RESULTS ON THEIR WEB SITE FOR ALL TO SEE. Either your for it or against it. Lots of groups on both sides of the same issue do this and get great results for voters. This would make it much harder for the downstate Dems to say one thing and then do another. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 8:45 am: Philosophically, I agree with 6:28 am on the use of government funds to pay for state worker pensions vs. other programs. And I think state employees pay far too little for comparatively (to the private sector) lush pension benefits that are increasingly not available to private sector workers. Why do we taxpayers have to pay state workers far more than they could make in the private sector, when adding the value of salaries plus cheap health benefits plus nice fat pensions. Ditto teachers and legislators and most judges. Having said that, it’s clear that Repubs see disgruntled university profs and other state workers as a source of lots of votes. Hence Mr. Marshall’s initiatve. The Dems are on the right path here although they have not been nearly aggressive enough about reducing the state workforce (the Repubs did that, through the ERI), and reining in Illinois’ porky pension program. State employees should start paying the real freight for their luxurious benefits. And this from a blogger who absolutely detests Blago. - Bill - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 9:08 am: 8:45 Well said, I agree completely…except for the detest Blago remark - Bluefish - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 9:30 am: Wow anon 8:45…I didn’t realize that teachers were making far more than they could in the private sector. I guess the teachers I know who make a lot less than I believe they deserve have been putting one over on me. I guess their talk about quitting and getting a better paying job in the private sector so they don’t have to work second jobs just to make ends meet is just a lot of hot air. Because they’re already making more now. Let’s be honest. School districts are cutting health benefits and increasing deductables…same as the private sector. And with the state robbing their pensions, I have to question why anybody would even consider becoming a teacher. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 9:31 am: What can I say? More Republican propoganda… They think Blago has a spin machine? Its nothing compared to the IL GOP (the press just doesnt report it). I am sure that the emails they sent out were 100% factual too. I hope people do their own research to form their opinion. Too often they dont… - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 9:33 am: The pension payments do not effect current hires… and the reforms that the Governor instituted only effect new hires. The Governors opposition is trying to scare people. Shameful. Also, the reforms that Blago instituted will shrink the long term debt payments. It is fiscally sound. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 9:36 am: Teachers in my Cook suburb make $100,000 a year plus luxurious health care (free for spouses) and pension benefits. Admins make up to $200,000. And this is not atypical for teachers who have been in the system for a few years. If they could make more in the private sector, they would leave. Most of them don’t. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 9:36 am: 8:45 AM >> Why do we taxpayers have to pay >> state workers far more than they >> could make in the private sector, >> when adding the value of salaries >> plus cheap health benefits plus >> nice fat pensions. Ditto teachers >> and legislators and most judges. Wow - what state are you posting from - ’cause that’s where I’d love to work! As for here in Illinois, most of the professionals I know working for the state would make more in the public sector. About any medical professional working for the state is doing so because of some beleif in the program they work for. Ditto for other professionals. I’m not complaining - hey, that was the deal and most of us knew that when we came on board. Working for the state = crappy pay, sub-standard equipment, and overwhelming bureaucracy. On the plus side, there is job security [those who talk about how impossible it is to get rid of a state worker are sooo right], a reasonable - but by no means lavish - retirement plan, and the luxury of working for a cause, be it kids health, criminal justice, etc. - that makes it just a bit better than working in the for profit sector for many of us. But as your salary goes backwards - as it has for most non-Rutan exempt management positions over the past 3 years - and as your pension is raided by an administration that is to craven to come up with a realistic budget to fuel it’s high- profile, low-impact agenda, at least one has the pleasure of reading ignorant posts by yahoos who think they know everything about state government because they have a few blog sites bookmarked on their home PC. Happy holidays to you, too. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 9:40 am: Anon 9:36 - Well, most of us don’t live in Winnettka. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 9:55 am: To bolster 9:36 am’s claim Teacher & admin salaries in Illinois are public domain. You can view them here: http://www.thechampion.org/teacher/cgi-bin/teacher.pl You can look up by last name, school distict, etc. You can get their salaries and experience level. If you want to see how ‘poor’ some teachers are, check out Palatine Distirct 211. Drivers Ed, shop, and teachers that teach singing are making in excess of $120,000 for 9 months a year work. Plus pension, benefits, etc. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 10:07 am: Everyone, except a few, seems way off subject here. Rich wasn’t talking about your views on the Governor’s pension policies (at least that’s not the way I read it), but he was making an observation that this so-called “independent” organization appears just to be a front group setup by a GOP Senate staffer with the help of Senate Minority Leader Frank Watson’s campaign committee. As an aside, I remember many years ago where several people at the SURS lost their jobs because they used the teachers’ list to solicit money, create a PAC and stir up the retirees. Who would have given this guy that email or mailing list? That seems to me worth looking into, especially if these are “unsolicited.” I gotta give a lot of you credit for trying to change the subject. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 10:18 am: It might be worth seeing who staffs Higher Ed and/or Pensions for the SGOPs. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 10:18 am: Everytime the GOPs (as in MOPE) talk about pensions, Illinois taxpayers wonder when they will cork Bush and the Social Securiy scam. The comment about SURs employees getting canned for political work should get the ball rolling on Mr. Marshall. TaTa Thanks CaptFax for helping to clear our a little deadwood. - Bluefish - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 10:29 am: Sorry to stay off topic, but 9:55 is citing exceptions, not the rule. Not many school districts (outside the affluent areas that choose to support these high salaries) have the taxbase to pay their teachers that well. Many, many more teachers are making less than half or even a third of what a D211 shop teacher makes. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 11:30 am: the Republican front group, save our pensions says on their website “We will share information with other groups and public officials dedicated to the same goals.” They are referring to people’s personal information that they are spamming and misleading individuals to sign petitions that say false statements. Why is Frank Watson directing state employees to politicize the pension issue and spread misinformation? Do people who sign these petitions realize that their information will be forwarded to Republicans who might not share their values on issues? - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 12:15 pm: precisely. As much as I might be upset by the pension skimming, I still wouldn’t want to be involved with the Senate GOPs. Because then my support for their position on pensions might be mistaken for support on their completely irresponsible stances on gun control, consumer protection, choice and a bunch of other stuff. - Save MY Pension - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 1:15 pm: 10:07 anon wrote in part: As an aside, I remember many years ago where several people at the SURS lost their jobs because they used the teachers’ list to solicit money, create a PAC and stir up the retirees. 10:07, your recollection is mostly incorrect. The SURS director back then, Dennis Spice, resigned ca. 1995 before being fired after doing a whole bunch of stupid things, including using SURS money to make about $3000 of political contributions to State and Federal candidates. They did not raise any money or use a member list for political fundraising purposes; my own recollection is unclear on the PAC. His defense at the time for the contribs was that he got bad advice from his staff lobbyist, who also got the boot. That would be Tony Freveletti, who disappeared for quite awhile and then turned up as “Deputy Director of Patronage” (in his own words) at CMS in the beginning of Blago’s term. He didn’t last long there, either. Anyone who has studied the issue of “pension reforms” objectively, like the bipartisan COGFA (Ec & Fisc for us old guys) did recently finds that, as usual, the OMB savings estimates were a tad overstated and that the State will be lucky to break even over the long haul. Bill, you seem to know quite a bit about pensions and you threw one out there I’ve never heard of. Can you quickly explain in layman’s terms what a 750 style type swap is? Sounds like something we used to do with the carburetors on our Camaros, but I’m sure that’s not it. - Bill - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 1:34 pm: Save, A 750 type swap refers to the failed initiative, HB/SB 750, where property taxes are lowered and income taxes are raised by a larger amount to enhance state revenue. 750 was supposed to “equalize” education funding among school districts. The Governor opposed any sales or income tax increases.It passed a committee but lost in the Senate. Watch for it to be re-introduced soon. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 2:40 pm: OK, let’s set a few things straight. The state constitution guantees state workers’ pension benefits, so if the system ever comes up short, the state either has to sell off assets or raise taxes to make the payments. (or change the constitution). So, if you don’t work for the state you should be concerned about the pension system being shorted. It’s your taxes (or more likely your kids’ taxes) that will be raised to cover state employee pensions down the road, but you won’t see a dime of benefit. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 2:51 pm: Anon 1:15 My point, my friend (b/c I said “my recollection”) was that these lists of retirees are not supposed to be handed out for marketing OR political purposes. Are you suggesting that anyone can get email and personal home addresses of University Retirees or existing employees? I simply suggested that someone might want to find out how this list came to be in the hands of an SGOPer whose group received seed money from Watson’s political fund. Please post the place where any of us can access that confidential information for whatever reason we choose and I’m sure everyone here would appreciate it. I know the retirees would. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 4:12 pm: “6:28 am I don’t care which party puts off/has put off making the payments, but the citizens of Illinois WILL end up paying for it on the back-end. Pay the minimal requirements now or pay the huge balloon payments later.” Not if the people of Illinois decide to change the constitution to get out of these ridiculous benefit payments and avoid a job-killing tax burden. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 5:06 pm: Some Republicans voters suggests doing what Republican state governments are doing all across our nation in relation to state pensions. Some Red states like Alaska have enacted pension reforms that require all employees to have defined contribution pension verse Illinois’ defined benefit pension. Defined contribution is an option for some in Illinois. The difference is that defined contribution puts all market risk on employees head instead of the employers (Illinois). It also helps fatten the pockets of investment firms who work for the individuals (employees) who don’t understand the market. In short, under a defined contribution plan many state employees will be worse off. More states led by Republican Govs. (california) and republican legislatures are proposing these types of reforms to “save” taxpayers. It seems to me that SB27 goes in the opposite direction and creates a realistic road map to solve the state pension problem in Illinois. - NumbersGuy - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 5:21 pm: FYI, folks, the address lists at TRS and SURS are strictly confidential. TRS was sued over access to the list a number of years ago and won at trial and on appeal. As far as e-mail, the funds don’t have e-mail address lists. If this guy has a “list” (which, if you hop over to IP’s blog, it’s not clear that he does) I doubt that it came from SURS. They don’t play that way. However, it’s awfully easy to get addresses of UI faculty and staff. Just buy a student/staff directory on campus and there you go. You can get their e-mail addresses off the uiuc.edu website-it’s not rocket science. A rocket scientist would find them an easier way.. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 6:44 pm: What puzzles me is that most Illinois taxpayers are not state employees…the vast, vast majority are not. Yet taxpayers continue to support lush state pension benefits although increasingly non-governmental employees have to save for their own retirements through 401k’s etc, with no pensions in their future. It would not be difficult or unfair to move incoming new or reinstated state workers to a defined contribution plan, similar to the ones their non-governmental colleagues have. This would help bail out the pension system and reduce pottential taxes for everybody in the state. Maybe the electorate has state employees confused with welfare recipients….clueless, helpless types who can’t earn a living anywhere but with the state, the only employer that will take them. I’m sorry but I’m not that sympathetic. State employees should be treated fairly but no more. - Tessa - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 8:10 pm: I continue to be amazed by the number of people who think the average state employee has such a wonderful pension when they retire. Until less than 10 years ago, we in Illinois were like 48th out of 50 states. Now we’re somewhere in the middle when it comes to pensions, for those that are regular, run of the mill state employees. If, however, they defer part of their income into the deferred compensation program, then they end up having a halfway decent income upon retirement. I think it completely sucks that, if my son and stepson don’t move out of this state when they are grown up, they’ll be footing the bill for the follish moves of borrowing from the pension fund to pay bills and for programs now. Services still suck, things aren’t better, but boy does the Gov look good. Private sector jobs don’t have it good, because there aren’t any good jobs to be had, because the Illinois economy sucks. There just aren’t any easy answers and I don’t think anyone is ever going to be happy. Welcome to reality in Illinois. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 9:26 pm: Tessa, as usual, is exactly right. There is this myth that state employee pensions and teacher pensions are generous. Most of the people who say that don’t have a clue what they are talking about. I think it takes over 30 years for an employee to get to 50% of salary. Very few employees ever have 30 years of service, especially in a middle management position. And don’t forget that government salaries are less than the private sector for comparable positions. So, 50% of final salary is less than 50% of a final salary in comparable private sector positions. I’m sure this will set off a round of flaming messages from public-employee haters. I’m not complaining about the pension benefits, I’m willing to accept less money because I believe in what I am doing. But, I don’t appreciate the pension raid of SB 27 and it was definitely a raid. As other post-ers have pointed out, the real issue with SB 27 is costs — costs that will be paid by all Illinois taxpayers long after this administration has been driven from office. Some of the SB 27 apologists try to raise the fear of a defined contribution plan. Believe me, I’ve done the numbers — if I had been allowed to invest my pension contributions in deferred comp, I’d be much better off than I will be under the pension system. So don’t try to scare me with a defined contribution plan. I’d take it in a second. - Mike's used sports section - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 9:59 pm: email is the only way they can target their message to such a narrow audience on this issue - makes sense to me the rest of the voters who aren’t state pensioners probably agree with me that more raids would be a good thing I give the Senate Republicans credit for such a smart move, something unusual for them. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 11:22 pm: I am a teacher and I am a member of SAVE OUR PENSIONS. I think many of the people who have commented here have lost sight of the bottom line. Blago stole from the pensions of downstate and suburban teachers. I suspect many of you would be screaming if he stole from your pensions, too. Furthermore, the Gov, while taking money from TRS, funneled more state money into the lucrative Chicago Teachers’ pension fund. - Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 1, 05 @ 11:42 pm: Numbers Guy 5:21 I have no problem if someone picked up a campus phone book and pulled out the (current) professors’ contact information and sent them direct mail or (if they could get it from the Professor’s Executive Assistant) their email. You explain to me why they are so concerned regarding the source of their list: “The commenter also admitted to sending thousands of unsolicited e-mails “to those who we feel will be interested.” The commenter did not divulge where or how the organization obtained the e-mail addresses or its funding.” I guess there’s no smoke, no fire; just an innocent attempt at creating a good public pension policy group that just happens to be staffed by an SGOPer and funded by seed money provided Watson’s campaign fund. I can understand if you want to say it’s a corporate secret because this “young entrepreneur” doesn’t want to give his competition an unfair advantage in the consulting business. Your sincerity is jaw-dropping. - Anonymous - Friday, Dec 2, 05 @ 12:23 am: OK, Anon 8:04 - the “huge die hard democrat” - is clearly drunk from the GOP Kool Aid. No wait, I’ve changed my mind. Maybe you’re a GOP hack trying to be funny. - Anonymous - Friday, Dec 2, 05 @ 12:47 am: Anon 11:22 p.m., either you have selective memory or someone has been feeding you half-truths. Sounds like you have been duped and have bought into the GOP spin. IFT and IEA both supported SB 27. Why would they have supported a measure that hurt their own members? The downstate teachers’ pensions got a hell of a lot more money than the Chicago pensions did and they always will. And by the way, nobody “stole” from anyone’s pension. You are a current teacher, yes? Maybe a retiree? Then your pension and benefits are constitutionally protected. Enough with the dramatics. - Anonymous - Friday, Dec 2, 05 @ 10:03 am: I like the the no more votes to raid the pention pledge idea. Put this on a web site for the whole state to see. Great idea! - Anonymous - Friday, Dec 2, 05 @ 3:05 pm: 1) Those that think it’s okay to skim from pension funding are incredibly short-sighted. As noted by several others, every dollar the State fails to invest today will cost us exponentially in the future due to the loss of compounding interest. That means higher taxes, significantly large cuts or a constitutional change. 2) As for the lush benefits, they’re not that wonderful. If you believe benefits are too high, then perhaps the labor unions that usher in increased benefit legislation and the legislators that support them need the second guessing. However, for most, the benefits aren’t that great. 3) For the argument that pensions aren’t available to most in the private sector, I acknowledge that, but at the same time, public employees don’t get a match for 401k contributions. Most have a secondary investment, like a 457, made up of unmatched contributions. 4) If you want change in the system, that’s fine, but for now Illinois is among the bottom 2 states in terms of pension funding and there is a constitutionally guaranteed promise to pay the people already in the system. You can start over with a defined contribution plan with new hires, but the existing employees have to be funded. 5) Considering that the failure to appropriately fund this now is going to cost us taxpayers more in the end, I’m not sure it matters if the funding has poltical backings in the grand scheme. I’m just glad someone is standing up and happy to see that a legislator’s office actually recognizes the great harm being done in mortgaging the future. 6) Finally, for those pulling out the extremes in compensation, that’s not the case everywhere, particularly outside of the Chicago area suburbs. Most teachers still start out in the mid to upper 20’s in the rest of the State. So many people like to complain we don’t support our teachers enough and that for all their long hours and crummy conditions, they aren’t properly compensated. Current example: ( http://www.herald-review.com/blogs/teachersstrike/?p=2 ) But then when it comes time to actually pay them and foot the property tax bill, everyone likes to crucify them. - NumbersGuy - Friday, Dec 2, 05 @ 4:43 pm: Dear 11:42 anon- I’m not carrying any water for these guys, though I’m symphathetic to their cause. Read my post again; all I was trying to say was that if they had a list, I didn’t think they got it from SURS. I also didn’t write squat about a “corporate secret” or Marshall’s side business. If he figured out another way to get a mailing list, good for him. Pick your jaw up and dust it off. Slack-jawed and anonymous is no way to go through life. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.