Warning: Icky topic ahead… *** Updated x2 ***
Monday, Mar 19, 2007 - Posted by Rich Miller
OK, I will say right up front that this is an extremely icky topic. Nobody wants to think about stuff like this. But if it’s a proven fact that sexually transmitted diseases are being spread in prisons, it kinda boggles my mind that the state won’t allow condoms to be distributed…
Prisons have a rate of HIV infection nearly five times greater than the rate nationwide, yet they are among the few places in America where condoms are almost impossible to get.
Those unsettling facts have spurred a growing campaign by lawmakers and public health advocates who are concerned that prisons may be a prime breeding ground for HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases.
The most recent effort to put condoms in Illinois prisons suffered a setback Thursday when a state House committee voted 6-5 against a bill that would authorize distribution of condoms to state inmates.
But officials with the AIDS Foundation of Chicago, which argued for the measure, said they hope to find a compromise with the Illinois Department of Corrections, one of the bill’s main opponents.
Sexual contact is banned in prisons. I completely agree with it, for many reasons. But does this “no condom” policy make sense to you?
*** UPDATE *** VanillaMan makes an excellent point in comments…
Condoms can be used as weapons to strangle. They are durable and can be used also used as tourniquets for IV drug use.
*** UPDATE 2 *** “dan l” has another very good point…
The magic properties of “condoms as a weapon†also goes the same for shoe strings and pant legs. What’s the point?
- Just Because - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 9:13 am:
The fact is there is a problem. I dont know if this would help or not but its better then nothing. These people do get out from time to time and if they are infected then they will infect others Inside and out. Its a start
- VanillaMan - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 9:15 am:
Condoms can be used as weapons to strangle. They are durable and can be used also used as tourniquets for IV drug use.
It is very naive to believe that prison sex is just a bunch of fun guys being intimate. Condoms, if available, would most like NOT be used. These men are high risk takers. The logic behind using a condom isn’t something they inherently use.
Victims of prison rape also would not benefit. Rape would still be used as punishment. The idea that victims could ask for condoms before being abused is ridiculous.
The entire mindset behind the proposal is ignorant. The prison population is not normal, and does not respond normally. The idea that if you pass out condoms HIV infections would drop is logical only outside prison, not within it.
Before we even start offering condoms, we should first end prison rape. Rape is a crime, and we should not be permitting crimes within prison. Rape is a huge problem in prisons and before we even begin discussing condoms, we should first discuss how to enforce the law within prisons.
- Rich Miller - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 9:17 am:
VM, that sentence about condoms being used as a weapon is an excellent point. Hadn’t even thought about it. Thanks for bringing it up.
- VanillaMan - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 9:17 am:
A condom is good for only one use. What do we do with used condoms? How do we enforce inmates who seems to be unenforcable to dispose of used condoms? How do we know they will not reuse a condom?
The whole idea is unworkable and silly the more I think about it.
- dan l - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 9:31 am:
I’ve got a few opinions of this. Ironic, because I had tied it into my HPV vaccination post.
Allow me to provide you with my assumptions before I tell you where I’m going with this:
1. Rape is not an issue of morality. You cannot stop rape (even in ‘rape friendly’ socially constructed environments such as prison)
2. When prisoners get out of prison, they’re going to go home and tap their wife/girlfriend/whoever and they’re going to spread the infection.
3. Even if the person is a lifer, their medical care is going to be at cost of the state.
4. These folks aren’t known for getting jobs once they get out of prison. Their medical care is going to be at the cost of the state.
No brainer. Omission of action in this case, is practically akin to murder not only of one individual who gets raped, but potentially of whomever he/she sleeps with when she gets out.
- Objective Dem - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 9:41 am:
Something needs to be done about the serious issues of rape, AIDs, and sex in prison. But I think giving out condoms is a simplistic response that will be marginally helpful.
- dan l - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 9:42 am:
I think when we’re talking about AIDS, “marginally helpful” is an acceptable result.
- VanillaMan - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 9:49 am:
So you claim that rape cannot be controlled. I don’t agree, but lets go ahead with your statement.
Although you say prisons can’t control rape, they can somehow get prisoners to use condoms when they engage in illegal activities?
So, OK - lets pretend that made sense. What do we do after the condoms are used? How do we ensure that condoms are not reused?
I don’t envision a scenario where prison guards who cannot seem to control rape would be expected to monitor illegal sexual activities to ensure that fresh condoms are used and used condoms are safely disposed.
Your assumptions about the behavior of prisoners don’t seem very realistic.
Then there are the tattoos. HIV infections can be spread through the tattoos these guys cover their bodies with. One unclean tattoo needle can spread HIV.
Face it, these guys are super high risk takers. They live risky lives and spreak their risky viruses in different ways. A visit from Susan Sarandon carrying condoms and clean needles is not a solution.
- VanillaMan - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 9:52 am:
And marginally helpful isn’t when it means distributing objects that can kill innocent prison staffers and guards.
Someone says “aids” and you people are ready to do anything, even if it make prisons more dangerous.
Get your priorities in order.
- Carl Nyberg - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 10:03 am:
Prison rape is a problem whether the perpetrators use condoms or not.
IMO the failure of authorities to prevent prison rape is a failure to comply with the Constitution which bans “cruel and unusual punishment” (Amendment VIII).
But back to Vanilla Man’s points.
There are plenty of objects that can be used to strangle. I don’t think this is a good enough reason to ban condoms.
As for using condoms as accessories to IV drug use….
Call me an idealist, but I’ve got a problem with the idea that inmates can procure IV drugs in prison. If the prisons can’t keep IV drugs out we should go back to the drawing board.
How can IV drugs get into prison? My suspicion is that the guards are criminals on the take. If this is the situation in every prison doesn’t this make the state complicit in the criminality surrounding prisons?
- dan l - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 10:05 am:
As per the usual, VanillaMan can be counted on to reject our reality, and substitute his own:
Back in the real world:
1. There’s no expectation that guards will enforce the use of proper use of condoms.
2. The magic properties of “condoms as a weapon” also goes the same for shoe strings and pant legs. What’s the point?
Back to reality: Vanilla is just executing his well known homo paranoia using sound-good logic which crumbles under even minimal scrutiny.
And you said it yourself. Prisons are high risk places. Making it slightly less risky for those involved in rape culture is not a bad thing. But once people leave prisons, it’s an issue of public health which is takes what goes on in a cell late at night that we don’t like to think about and places it firmly in our communities.
- Buck Turgidson - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 10:22 am:
I think when the rhetoric is stripped, both sides are making good points here. But this brings up another pair of topics, somewhat touched upon;
1) Prinson Rape. It has long been socially acceptable to joke about prison rape. I’m as guilty as anyone. Something about our view of convicts doesn’t register on our moral compass, and so this brutal act of violent submission becomes an easy joke. Though the condom distribution is probably intended for consentual acts, it should be a conversation catalyst for the rape problem that we’ve probably joked about for too long.
2) Actions after release. Maybe the place for condom distribution and education is on the way out the door. It is obvious that many are fundamentally changed by prison. In addition to helping ex-inmates learn to get back into the work world, there ought to be extensive social training. They probably should be tested for VDs on the way out the door, and schooled in the fact that violent, unprotected sex is not acceptable on the outside. Seems obvious, but like a lot of things, it probably isn’t.
To veer back into topic, my point is that regardless of the outcome of this initiative, it should set state (and federal) officials talking about other sexual and pseudo-sexual topics that probably aren’t given enought weight.
- Anonymous - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 10:23 am:
I find it quite humerous that you consider homosexual behavior to be icky. I thought we this was beautiful natural thing.
- Rich Miller - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 10:29 am:
Anon, it’s not the homosexual behavior that I find icky, it’s the whole topic of prison sex that I approach with caution.
- dan l - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 10:31 am:
Prison rape really has nothing to do with homosexuality. It’s rape. Period.
- VanillaMan - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 10:43 am:
When was the last time you used a condom? Condoms are powerful. Shoe strings do not store energy, latex condoms do. You can tie several together and create a powerful weapon like bows and slingshots. You can’t use a pant leg or a shoe string like that, can you? Stop being silly!
Stop the insults too. This is not about homosexuality. It is a blantant disregard for prison safety. Sex, like anger, is a cause for prison fights and abuse. Fighting and killing lovers got a lot of guys in there, so it is natural for this to continue in prison.
Guards do not need to be Dr. Ruths. They are there to protect and enforce laws.
Bloggers who want to see condoms passed around prisons do not understand enough about the real world to even sense the dangers they propose.
- Rich Miller - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 10:48 am:
OK, everybody take a deep breath here.
- dan l - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 10:49 am:
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
Watch MacGyver much?
- RBD - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 11:05 am:
There’s an interesting tie-in between this Icky idea and the speech BF Currie gave, detailed in a lower blog posting.
Public officials too often (almost always?) rush into a decision without understanding the unintended consequences. The officials get forced into poor choices because of the loud enthusiasm by people and groups who sound great but aren’t dealing with the entire issue. (And then media reporters who present that one side without any clue there is more to the story.) [It’s the bane of my existence these days.]
I used to be a US Senate staffer. After the poorly constructed legislation has passed, people who arrive on the scene with comments like “I could have told you that problem would happen†are not always appreciated. [One is left to silently scream: Where were you last year? This is not a rehearsal. This is real life. These are real people being harmed. That’s real money being wasted………….]
Thus, Rep. Currie’s point about the need for thoughtful and deliberate consideration applies here. Clearly this blog discussion alone points out the need for a better understanding of the situation.
The organizations fighting AIDS have valid concerns and points. It is a serious problem that inmates are being infected in prison and then spreading that disease after they leave.
It’s an equally serious concern that taxpayers will have to foot the fill for the medical care most/all of these people and this will be a considerable amount now that AIDS is generally a chronic, rather than deadly, disease.
The prison officials have every reason to not agree to a program that would condone an illegal activity within their institution. However, I’d suggest they need a better PR response. A blanket No answer automatically sounds unreasonable to citizens who would not otherwise care about what goes on in prisons.
- Anonymous - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 11:20 am:
I just can’t believe how naive you people are. Do you really think rape is what is happening here ? Grow up.
- cermak_rd - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 11:30 am:
I would like to see prison rape ended. Now. It is inherantly unfair that someone who went to prison for armed robbery can get raped and wind up with a death sentence (HIV/AIDS). You can’t tell me the prison authorities cannot monitor the prisoners and make sure they are safe from each other. If they can’t, perhaps more guards are needed or better prison design and use.
Now, for non-coerced consensual sex, yes, condoms would be a good, but the thing I would worry about is the prisoners using them to make urine balloons etc. and tossing them at the guards.
- dan l - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 11:30 am:
Oh? What is happening here then?
- YNM - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 12:06 pm:
Not only can you make weapons and drug paraphernalia from condoms … you can make large animals, too. Haven’t you all heard about the Trojan Horse? Ha! Thought so.
These are dangerous things we’re dealing with here.
- South Sider - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 12:07 pm:
I’ll chime in and agree that the answer to prison rape is not condoms. I’ll also agree that the benefit of having condoms available for consensual prison sex does not outweigh the dangers of latex on prisoners and guards as well as the preposterousness of asking your rapist to please use a condom.
When your approach to solving a vexing problem (HIV in prison) is not working, you try another approach, but you don’t give in. Giving condoms to prisoners is the same as saying “we have no clue how to stop rape and consensual sex in prison, so here’s a bunch of condoms now go at it.” Ridiculous.
- dan l - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 12:44 pm:
South Sider,
I’m not sure that handing out condoms is actually saying “go at it”.
It’s like in college when during freshman orientation they give a quick bit about alcohol saying. “you’re not supposed to be doing this, but if you do do this, you should be aware of X, Y, Z and take precautions A, B, and C”.
It’s dumb for prison officials/state of Illinois to stick their heads up their ass and believe that rape doesn’t go on much like it’s dumb for college officials to stick their heads up their ass and believe that underage drinking doesn’t go on.
Within prisons are communities. Within communities are community issues. You have to provide people with the appropriate tools to deal with them.
BTW - opportunity for further discussion of this against the HPV vaccine frame at Illinoize
- Skeeter - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 1:54 pm:
I never thought I would agree with VM on anything.
He’s got this one right though.
Why in the world would anyone think a prisoner would use a condom for its proper purpose?
I am a huge believer in supplying condoms to high school kids because I suspect that if they are widely available, the kids just might use them.
Prisoners? No way. They would be used only for weapons.
- Carl Nyberg - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 2:14 pm:
Skeeter, why wouldn’t prisoners having sex use condoms?
What is this para-military use of condoms that can’t be achieved by other methods?
- Yellow Dog Democrat - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 2:39 pm:
VanillaMan -
For four years, HIV/AIDS advocates have been asking AFSCME representatives to provide the legislature of documented examples of a condom being used as a weapon.
Not one has ever been produced, so I suggest we drop the hypothetical talking points.
The fact is that anonymous condom distribution has been recommended from public health experts at the United Nations down for years. This is not some zany idea.
To close our eyes and ears and pretend that inmates aren’t having sex is like pretending HBO never had a hit series called “Oz” for six seasons.
Rape, consensual sex, sex with guards, it’s all happening in our prisons, and the problem eventually returns to our neighborhoods.
- Wumpus - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 2:53 pm:
I would be less worried about it a sa weapon, but aren’t drugs easily stored and swallowed in them? I am proposing that every other cell gets a monitor, paid for by the new Oz Tax to monitor prison cells and prevent rape or at least ensure that proper protections are being used.
Honestly, i really doubt this will make a dent in the number of cases. As most of these convicts can’t/don’t wear them on the outside or cannot even follow society’s rules, so now they reach an epiphany and decide to strap up. Please…get real. This is about as silly as expecting criminals to abide by gun control laws.
- dan l - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 3:00 pm:
Actually, VanillaMan, please make a high power sling shot, bow, debauchery, or catapult, from some condoms and things commonly available in prisons and web document it.
- dan l - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 3:06 pm:
Debauchery? Meant to say trebuchet. Damn spellbound.
- Papa Legba - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 3:11 pm:
How about testing and segregation? Put the HIV infected inmates in one prison and the non-infected in another prison.
You won’t stop rape, but you can slow the spread of the disease.
- VanillaMan - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 4:47 pm:
“For four years, HIV/AIDS advocates have been asking AFSCME representatives to provide the legislature of documented examples of a condom being used as a weapon.”
That is one nutty way to dispute an issue. Since you don’t have any documented cases, the issue doesn’t exist? Nonsense. That is as nutty as the other side demanding documentation that handing condoms out reduces HIV.
You are so naive. In this day and age, you can’t even take shampoo on an airplane without getting the once over, but you think it is OK to give latex condoms to inmates because some of them might use them?
Oh please, get a clue.
- dan l - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 5:11 pm:
So Vanilla: photodocument for us how you make a bow or a slingshot to be used as a weapon against guards out of condoms.
- Rich Miller - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 5:13 pm:
[sigh]
Boys, do I have to close it down?
- Yellow Dog Democrat - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 6:09 pm:
VanillaMan — I never suggested that shampoo should be banned from airplanes, so don’t expect me to defend someone else’s policy. [For the record, I think that stripping pocket knives from passengers at the gate and then giving them a steak knife at the restaurant inside the gate IS nutty].
However, condoms are already available in prisons in Vermont, Mississippi, Canada, most of Europe, Thailand and Australia, as well as jails in New York, Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., San Francisco and Los Angeles. Not only are they not being used as weapons there, but studies haven’t found an increase in sex either. Just an increase in safer sex.
So yeah, I think that’s relevant.
- Pete Mitchell - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 8:50 pm:
inmates can make knives out of soap and rope out of toilet paper. with that said, condoms would be a great thing for them to have!!!!
- Tony Rezko - Monday, Mar 19, 07 @ 9:53 pm:
You people are scaring me with this talk of prison rape. I don’t know if I should change my plea or try to get the State condom contract. Decisions, decisions.
- annon. in the stykes - Tuesday, Mar 20, 07 @ 4:35 am:
BAD IDEA !! There is no such thing as providing for “safe sex” in a prision. You start handing condoms out …. what next ? It would condone an “activity” not permitted & thus eliminate by whatever the -0- tolerance policy of the dept. It’s a PRISON for Gods sake! Apart from the obvious that condoms can be used for ; a tourniquet for drug use with needles or something home made, gag, jam up a lock {it’s been done with less}, projectile weapon to name a few & it introduces a contraband item into the facility. Does sex go on…certainly , but illegally by dept. policy & rule. Those engaging in such activity are disciplined. They have a -0- tolerance policy for the obvious reasons & bound to ensure the safety of not only staff but inmates in their custody.
- annon. - Tuesday, Mar 20, 07 @ 4:49 am:
If it’s against the rules ….. it’s against the rules ! Why help it along ? No one is going to ask for them & thus set themselves out for scrutiny. Next question…who are they engaging in sex with ?? Staff, inmate on inmate, homosexual acts ? All erode the security of the facility as to say in violating established rules. You say NO to everything…there’s nothing to back-track on. Does it go on..yes but not tolerated & attempts to stop or at the least keep it under control is a daily thing. That’s what guards should be aware of, intel to report & I-A to investigate. It becomes a contraband issue too. It’s traded/ trafficked for whatever & can be used far beyond it’s intended purpose. Just because folks are locked up, despite what they’ve done, doesn’t make them stupid. They’ve nothing but time to figure this crazy stuff up & can be quite good at it. Bad plan ! Send these folks to “Rushville” if after the first offense can’t keep it under control. I’m sure they’ll find people of “like mind & quanity” there.
- dumb ol' country boy - Tuesday, Mar 20, 07 @ 6:11 am:
OKay…I cannot take it any more, the sterotyping of prisons, inmates, and sex. There IS NOT an abundance of inmates that are engaging in homosexual behavior. Even the inmates say they have to first explain this to their families, when the first get locked up, that there is not a bunch of homosexual behavior going on. Yes there are those terrible sitautions where a sexual assualt occurrs, but I am going to venture to guess that’s extremly low, over my 18 1/2 year career, I have not handled one case. Maybe a couple of allegations that were proven false. If you where going to get assualted, do you think the assaultors would stop to use a condom, probably not. If an individual that is HIV positive wants to attempt to effect you or anyone else, he doesn’t have to sexually assualt you, there are other ways. As far as a weapon, well, I think that might be a little far fetched, a sock with a pad lock or a bar of soap in it makes a great durable weapon, as well as a toothbrush with a piece of metal melted in the end.
Lets face it, this is one of the most stupidest pieces of legislation I have ever seen, all it does is condone homosexual activity in the prison system, which a violation of the rules and regualtions.
This is the typical uninformed people that are attempting to push this that do not have a clue as to what they are talking about…Plain and simple. Please don’t fall for it.
- Anonymous - Tuesday, Mar 20, 07 @ 6:26 pm:
Maybe the man whom is raped. For instance the one who sexually assaulted my 5 year old daughter and gave her gonorrea of the mouth will be able to use them as a weapon of revenge. Or does this just give them permission to have sex???? By the way assault of a 5 year old they deserve what they get if its a condom used against them or used on them Who cares. Speaking for any child or teenager assaulted unwillingly by a pervert.