41 Comments - Smitty Irving - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 8:57 am: $7 for breakfast, and an extra dollar in Chicago? Most state employees get $5.50 for breakfast, Cairo to Chicago. Even at the “normal” rate, Illinois Judges live large on our tax dollars. Nice work if you can get it. - VanillaMan - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 8:58 am: –The Court refuses to comply with the Auditor General’s recommendations, claiming that conference costs shouldn’t becompared to daily reimbursement allowances.– Who do they think they are? They work for us, right? They wanted the job, right? This arrogant response is sickening in that it comes from a group of public servants. Obviously serving themselves! - schroedk - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:02 am: I have a novel idea. Since the state has such large deficits with dwindling revenues, how about everyone in state government BUYS THEIR OWN FREAKIN’ FOOD! I know it’s a “perk”, but I used to have a “perk” of $1000 for continuing education, and that “perk” is now $0, due to cost-cutting. It’s what responsible entities do. I’m not bitter (even though I don’t enjoy paying out of pocket), but there’s something about personal responsibility that leads a person to be a little more careful about how they decide to spend their money on a CME, breakfast, etc. - True Observer - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:03 am: “Nice work if you can get it.” First you have to see your ward boss to be slated. - Macbeth - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:03 am: Where does one get a $8 breakfast these days? Agreed — 40 bucks is excessive, but even at my favorite dive downstate, I can’t get biscuits and gravy and side of eggs, orange juice, and coffee for less than $8. - problem - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:03 am: Recall!! - Trapped In The Metro East - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:08 am: Why doesn’t the court just refuse to comply with the auditors/investigators….it’s working so well in the executive branch. I understand during conferences the rate is higher….not quite the same as when the justices are driving their Pacer or Gremlin on I-55 and swinging through the Taco Bell drive through on the way to court. Can you say SUPREME-size me? - Ghost - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:09 am: so where does one get a 40 dollar donut, and what does it taste like? - cynically anonymous - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:09 am: In my experience, conferences usually have registration fees because hotels want you to use their food…meaning that meals are usually included in conferences. Our agency does not allow claiming per diem costs when there is a conference fee that includes meals. I would think that the courts should do likewise - unless they approve of the “double dipping” concept. That being said, state per diem and hotel allowances are a joke. Try to find a hotel room in Chicago for $130. - Rich Miller - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:15 am: ===Try to find a hotel room in Chicago for $130.=== I never pay more than $130 for a downtown hotel room. I usually use Priceline, and I often pay just $85. - Ghost - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:16 am: I think the auditor was discussing the cost of the meals provided by the conference, not that they were seeking reimbrusement - God's Country - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:20 am: mmmmm Biscuits & gravy Now I’m hungry - The Rookie - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:20 am: re: Ghost’s comment (”so where does one get a 40 dollar donut, and what does it taste like?”) HA!? I thought I was in trouble when I tasted my first Krispy Kreme donut a few years ago. However, if there is a $40 donut out there… … My waistline should be VERY afraid. haha! - PPHS - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:26 am: I am trying to figure out how you can control food costs at a conference that you are registered for? The judges aren’t sitting down and buying $40.00 worth of food. It is what they are being charged during the conference. - Enemy of the State - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:28 am: These people are out of contact with reality let alone the citizens. Give ‘em a leftover MRE or better yet have them brown bag it for lunch. Maybe they could get in the lunch line at the Cook County jail when doing business in Chicago. - T.i.w.i.t. - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:31 am: This probably needs some clarification. Are the judges each turning in vouchers for $48 dollar lunches or is the Auditor General saying that it is costing $48 for the conference to pay for these meals? - Anonymous - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:33 am: My experience with professional conferences (not in the judicial field but in specialty journalism) is limited and goes back to the 1990s. I do remember that the breakfast spreads were usually pretty elaborate… eggs, bacon, sausage, waffles, muffins/breads, juices, the whole works. It could easily cost $40 a head today particularly in large cities. If it’s part of the conference cost and not charged separately I’m not sure what the justices can do about it, other than pay for part of the conference cost out of their own pockets. - Ghost - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:38 am: The conference is paying those amoutns for the meals. The conference prices were negotiated by the Supreme Court who set up and paid for the conference. i.e. if the Supreme’s were getting their cars repaired an we saw $500 a peice spark plugs in the bill, it raises the question aout the legitimacy of the amount they authroized to pay. Those food costs are way to high. So money is being hidden in the food budget. They are paying for somthing that is not appearing on the bill that is being itemized or hidden under food cost. The question is, what are they really spending the money on? - wordslinger - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:44 am: I participate in some event planning in Chicago. For large business conferences, a $48 lunch is certainly on the plus side of the scale, but not the highest. Probably a very good steak or fish choice and wine. A $40 breakfast? — beats me, I can’t see how that’s possible without booze, probably mimosas and Bloody Marys. Either way, there are plenty of less expensive but still very good package options. I couldn’t tell from the report, but with attendees at 800 and 958 you’re probably talking about the Palmer House, Hilton on South Michigan or Hyatt. I don’t think the Four Season, Peninsula or Ritz can handle those sizes for meals. Did the court foot the whole bill? Or were they charging participants? - Freezeup - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:45 am: Now understand that I am often critical of judges, many seem to think they sit at the right hand of God and fantasize that they are in posession of the wisdom of Solomon and somehow know the unknowable. Yet I am expected to travel on occaision for the state and it always ends up costing me out of my pocket. I don’t know where the cheap food is I guess. Every time I go to Denny’s or Steak and Shake it seems to cost me $10-$12… These days my agency can’t plan more than a few weeks in advance. This is mostly due to the fact that the Governors Office has to approve all out of state travel. They wait until the week before to approve it. They buy refundable plane tickets without the advance notice at 2-3 times the cost of a ticket I would buy. We no longer stay in the same hotel as the conference and get reduced conference rates because no one can confirm our plans and the hotel fills up. We used to have it all billed in advance, now my PERSONAL credit card is tied up until the state decides to pay me- which is sometimes timely but has taken as long as 5 months. Pay the interest on the card? No, not a chance. Before all you state EE critics pipe up, my wife who is in private industry travels and eats on her AMEX and submits expenses to her boss for approval. Yes, they pay her expenses, all of them. I do not expect that the state could do the same thing, but it sure seems like the “checks and balances” that the state uses cost us twice what it saves. I guarantee she travels cheaper than I do. - Pat collins - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:50 am: 40 buck breakfasts I’ll bet it’s the breakfast buffet at a large hotel. 25~30 is common for those in Asia. Esp with the dollar these days….. - Ravenswood Right Winger - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 9:57 am: this is the same Illinois Supreme Court that is now requiring all lawyers to take Continuing Legal Education classes at their own expense….unless you are a judge. - Jake from Elwood - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 10:10 am: Judges attending conferences have no control over the cost of meals at the conferences. That issue is a red herring. - Rich Miller - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 10:12 am: The conferences were organized by the Supremes, so individual judges may have no control, but the Supremes do. - fedup dem - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 10:16 am: A slight correction, True Observer: In the case of our current Chief Justice, first he had to kick the ball for Da Bears, not see a ward boss! - A Citizen - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 10:45 am: If you think the conferences’ food bill is extravagant you should see their apartments and services they receive in their Springfield Supreme Court building! Wow, maids, laundry, catered food . . . . - Anonymous - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 10:58 am: It’s true there’s “no free lunch,” but the hot dogs and soda at the Springfield Ace Hardware stores (available Thursday through Sunday only) come pretty close… you can get 1 dog and a small cup of soda for $1. Two people can have dogs, chips and soda for under $5. And you can shop for lawn, garden and tool stuff at the same time. Maybe some of our state officials ought to check it out - Ghost - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 11:02 am: Hmm I wonder if Rich will provide 40 dollar donuts at his upcoming sporting event. Seems like a good contest, who can create the best tasting donut for 40 dollars… New add campaign for the capital fax…for lees then the cost of 10 supreme court funded donuts you can have a subscription to the capital fax. - Anon - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 11:48 am: Here are some points that may have been missed in the discussion: 1. The Court’s response to the Auditor begins on Page 11 of the full report. 2. The judges did NOT get reimbursed at those rates. These meals were taken as part of multi-day conferences involving as many as 450-475 judges who traveled to the conference hotel from around the state. The costs of the meals were set by the hosting hotel and were part of a larger contract agreement which typically included costs for lodging, multiple meeting rooms, audio and visual equipment, etc. The Administrative Office of Illinois Courts (the constitutionally created administrative arm of the Supreme Court) chose the facility which gave the best deal for all the services required for the event. 3. Taken from the Court Response in the Auditor’s Report (pages 11 and 12): “…The costs of conference/seminar related meals are set by the hosting hotel and are part of a larger contract agreement which typically includes costs for lodging, meeting rooms and equipment rental. The contract meals costs, as set by the hosting hotel, necessarily take into consideration the size of the participating group, the number of plates to be prepared and served, the number of wait staff required for service, the set up and breakdown of the dining facility and gratuities. Factors which inform a contract award for judicial conferences and seminars include the Administrative Office’s determination of which facility can best accommodate the number of participants, on the most desirable date, at the most appropriate location, with the most adequate number of sufficiently appointed meeting rooms, for the least amount of costs. No single factor is dispositive.” 4. Cynthia Y. Cobbs, director of the Administrative Office of the Illinois Courts, is quoted in an extended story in the Chicago Daily Law Bulletin. “Those are what I would characterize as hard costs,” she said. “They are not soft costs which a hotel or any other conference center would offer as negotiable. It’s like going into a restaurant and the menu says, ‘Baked chicken is X dollars’–it’s not a negotiable point.” In the Law Bulletin story, Cobbs said the Administrative Office tries to choose the most reasonably-priced menu items, like chicken or fish while providing some variety over the course of the conference. “It’s never lobster,.” she said. 4. For the most part, the judges were in mandatory sessions from around 8:00 a.m. until 5 p.m. 4. Some of the meals were taken at “working” breakfasts and lunches, where there was a speaker. The room needed to be large enough to accommodate, in some cases, hundreds of judges, a speaker, audio and visual equipment, as well as buffet lines and/or servers.. 5. On some days, breakfasts were continental. On other days, scrambled eggs (were they powdered) were offered along with a meat (bacon or sausage) and potatoes. 6. Two of the five conferences mentioned in the Auditor’s Report were the 2006 Education Conference, which requires attendance by all of the 900-plus judges in the state. That conference is held once every two years. Half of the judges in the state attend one week (Conference 1 in the Report); the other half attend another week (Conference 2 in the Report). Site of the 2006 Conference(s) was the Hyatt Regency in Chicago. 7. Conference 3 in the Report was a five-day “New Judges” educational conference. It is held once a year. It is required for all new judges who have come on the bench within the previous calendar year. Typically, there are about 60 to 90 participants plus faculty. Conference 3 was held in December 2005 at the Holiday Inn City Center in Chicago. 8. Conference 4 in the Report was another five-day New Judges conference. This one was held in January 2007 at the Holiday Inn City Center. 9. Conference 5 in the Report was the Advanced Judicial Academy, a five-day conference for invited judges held every two years. This one dealt with cutting edge mental health issues in the law and was held in Springfield in June 2007 for about 75 judges, plus faculty. - lady - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 11:52 am: This is just amazing. The same Illinois Supreme Court that we are to count on for MORAL guidance. - wordslinger - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 12:08 pm: Anon, $40 per person for continental breakfast, or eggs and bacon, as part of a hotel’s room/meetings/meal package? That’s a “hard-cost,” non-negotiable? Does that sound reasonable to anyone? I assure you, in the Chicago meetings market, everything’s negotiable. And every hotel in downtown Chicago wants to host the next Supremes conference, if that’s the way they approach business negotiations. - Anonymous - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 12:30 pm: As usual, a lot of opinion based on ignorance rather than facts, here. Anybody here tried to set up a conference at a Chicago Hotel lately. I have. The cost of food is part of the deal and $40 per person is not unusual. Now I suppose you could negotiate the price of the food down, and pay a much higher rate for the use of facility - would that make everybody happy? Or tell the 500 judges to all disperse to McDonald’s at lunchtime, which would probably leave the luncheon speaker looking a little sad. This is a huge mountain out of a very small molehill. (And I hate the Illinois Supreme Court - I just think this is a bum rap.) - central illinois - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 12:43 pm: When attending a conference as a state employee we must deduct the cost of the breakfast or lunch provided from our travel costs - I know its $5.50 for lunch. Also, when our state agency holds a conference we provide coffee in the am - lunch on your own - and a soda and cookie in the afternoon - our conferences typicall run all day also. - plutocrat03 - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 1:06 pm: Conferences in the industry I travel to would not even dream of 40 breakfasts flying through the reimbursement systems. It is another example of mismanagement by public officials if they do not have experienced negotiators on their side working the deal. If the Chicago hotels are too expensive go elsewhere in the state. All state executive officers should be bound by the same expenditure policies. If the assertions noted by freezup are true, then the state employees should not travel unless arrangements can be made in advance. I have hear that convention business is down in most sectors, except for those dealing with the public sector. Too many people traveling without clear benefit to the taxpayer. - Ghost - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 1:12 pm: I have a family member whose job is to schedule conferences. She informs me it is very easy to negotitate food rates, and that the cost is high even for chicago for simple fare. The SUpreme Court can use the simple RFP (Request for Proposal) to seek bids to host its conference. In the terms of the RFP it can identify a max on meal expenses etc. Or conduct a reverse auction. This is either providing luxury meals at the tax payers expense or they are cost shifting, hiding some other expense in the food budget. - steve schnorf - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 1:27 pm: Mountain out of a molehill. If they are bidding the entire conference cost competitively, the costs of individual pieces are virtually irrelevant. As anon 11:48 says earlier, sure, we can do a $30 lunch instead of $48, but rather than the room being gratis it will now be $1000. If the specs aren’t outrageous, then comparing all in costs is an appropriate way to do the selection. The only thing I would suggest be done in a situation like that (and when you get up around a 1000 people, this isn’t always easy) would be to take a look at the ‘burbs (maybe Oak Brook or the Woodfield Mall area) and downstate to see if it could be done cheaper there (big piece could be parking for 600 or 800 people, frequently free downstate and in the burbs, and $30-$40 dollars a day downtown). However, this probably wouldn’t affect bid prices since parking wouldn’t normally be part of the package, it would be billed on individual travel vouchers. BTW, I’m willing to bet that the breakfast menu didn’t include Bloody Marys or any alcoholic beverage. - Rich Miller - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 1:30 pm: Steve, nobody said it was a “mountain.” But they glide under the radar far too often. - steve schnorf - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 1:47 pm: Rich, isn’t this probably just one more part of the p_____g match between the courts and the Auditor General? - wordslinger - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 2:51 pm: Not to beat a dead horse, but my Spider Sense started tingling when I saw a quote about food being a non-negotiable hard cost. Hotels measure success by occupancy rate and Average Daily Rate (ADR). The higher of each the better. The cost of operating a hotel 50% occupied and one 80% occupied is about the same. Your margins come in occupancy and ADR. There’s a glut of meeting space in Chicago and throughout the country, with more coming online all the time. Space you can have; they’ll deal on food; you can contract with outside caterers; hotels want the “heads in beds.” The only way the Supremes or anyone else would have to pay top dollar for food or space is if there’s not a sizable room block at the hotel. If you don’t have rooms, you’ll be charged a premium. Here’s a link to the on-site catering menu at Harry Caray’s, certainly not the cheapest restaurant in town. The hotels don’t post their catering costs because….. they’re negotiable. http://www.harrycarays.com/menus/chicago_catering_menu.pdf - Ghost - Friday, Apr 25, 08 @ 3:38 pm: I disagree steve. Looking at the total cost is how government has been bilked of hundreds of millions of dollars. Your dismissing a cost overrun by blithely assuming that if we dont get taken on the cost of food, they will just ripp us off on the cost of the room, so its ok. Were going to be ripped off, who cares what catagory they gouge us?!? - steve schnorf - Saturday, Apr 26, 08 @ 5:12 pm: If you want to consider the cost of the pieces, then bid them individually. Unfortunately, you may end up staying at one hotel, meeting at a different one, and eating at a third, Ghost. To address your concern, an agency could post everyone’s bid and ask for best and final offers, to see if anyone wanted to come down to win the bid. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.