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In case you’re wondering…

Thursday, Oct 16, 2008 - Posted by Rich Miller

[Bumped up to this morning to facilitate discussion.]

* Joe the Plumber…


* CBS snap poll

Immediately after the debate, CBS News interviewed a nationally representative sample of 638 debate watchers assembled by Knowledge Networks who were “uncommitted voters” - either undecided about who to vote for or who could still change their minds. Fifty-three percent said Obama won the debate, 22 percent said McCain won and another 25 percent thought it was a tie.

* MediaCurves poll

* CNN

Obama: 58%
McCain: 31%

McCain won in two categories. Eighty percent of debate watchers polled said McCain spent more time attacking his opponent, with seven percent saying Obama was more on the attack. Fifty-four percent said McCain seemed more like a typical politician during the debate, with 35 percent saying Obama acted more like a typical politician.

* Debate transcript

Discuss.

       

81 Comments
  1. - doubtful - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 10:17 pm:

    Dang, I was giving odds that Joe wasn’t real. Guess I lost this one! :)


  2. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 10:40 pm:

    McCain appears to be running for an at-large Senate seat. That’s a big reason he loses these debates, besides the more obvious stuff. Run for President, not the Senate.


  3. - archpundit - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 10:42 pm:

    joetheplumber.com .org .net .biz .info

    All taken. Apparently I should have tried during the debate.


  4. - North of I-80 - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 10:42 pm:

    Spread the wealth - Yikes. That makes as much sense as taking away some of the “grade” that an A student was expecting and spreading it around to the Failing students so that they get D’s now.


  5. - kimsch - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:09 pm:

    arch, yep. wealth is not a zero sum item. When you make more wealth and can hire me, I get more wealth too, without unduly diminishing your wealth…

    It seems they don’t see that any small business person that is a sole proprietorship (as I am) has to pay taxes as an individual. All the revenue minus acceptable deductions is counted as income. If my taxes go up, I may not hire that part-timer to help answer the phone or to help with the paperwork. If I have someone to do those things, I may have to let that person go because I may not be able to afford the payroll expenses which are much more than the hourly wage alone.


  6. - kimsch - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:10 pm:

    sorry arch, that was to North of I-80…

    too bad those sites are taken though.


  7. - chicountryguy - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:12 pm:

    Why not post the Drudge Poll, or the AOL.com poll? Because they have McCain winning?


  8. - JohnR - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:24 pm:

    Zen-master Obama.

    Highlight of the debate - Obama just coolly unable to control his laughter at McCain’s ridiculous staged theatrics.

    Despite that Obama looked more “presidential”, the election this year is actually about ideas. Not personalities or perceived “toughness”.

    That’s bad news for John McCain as he finds an electorate that is as cool to his ideas as Obama was in the face of McCain’s attacks.

    Ok, I think that was enough spin-like stuff. But, it is true…


  9. - JohnR - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:26 pm:

    “Why not post the Drudge Poll, or the AOL.com poll? Because they have McCain winning?”

    You mean Web site polls? as opposed to real survey polls?


  10. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:27 pm:

    Chi… Those aren’t polls. lol. Is you that daft?


  11. - JohnR - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:29 pm:

    Rich, maybe you should post the aol.com poll.

    It shows Obama up now.

    lol


  12. - howie - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:34 pm:

    I intend to vote for who will be the best president, not the best debater.


  13. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:47 pm:

    BTW, do plumbers really net way over $250K? My goodness.


  14. - JohnR - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:57 pm:

    He’s middle class, Rich! Middle class!

    For my money, this’ll do.


  15. - JohnR - Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:59 pm:

    wow, that was quick:

    http://www.joetheplummer.com/


  16. - Gregor - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 12:06 am:

    I thought I was watching that new Dennis Quaid Movie where due to some mix-up, the entire election comes down to just one guy, being courted to ridiculous levels by both sides, but more so by McCain. All that eye blinking by McCain looked like he didn’t believe what he himself was saying. I thought sitting down rather than standing and wandering about would have made Sen. McCain look better, but it didn’t help by much. Obama deftly parried every attack, gave no ground, and gave the impression he could unleash a load more, but was holding back. McCain at the end is reduced to sounding petulant, “Oh, he speaks so eloquently, what with his facts and all, but don’t let that fool you”. He also fell back a lot more on talking points and catch-phrases from previous speeches, while Obama riffed and ad-libbed a bit more. It didn’t help that I watched a repeat of The Daily Show just an hour previous, where John Stewart did a comparison of McCain speech phrases that showed him just repeating himself over and over.

    I flashed on Obama feeling like Dukakis during the debates; “can you believe this guy!?!?!” It was weird to see Obama stumble just a little bit in his summing-up, the part you’d expect to be best-rehearsed.

    I thought this was the best-moderated of the three debates, and Bob was even-handed and calm. I heard somewhere he’s a McCain partisan, but I didn’t see any of that tonight.

    I don’t think tonight moved anybody who’s already picked a side, but I would say it probably helped Obama pick up a few more undecideds.


  17. - Reddbyrd - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 12:11 am:

    i was with the Plumbers in S. IL…they cheered Obama…too bad wHACKEYjACK YOU LOSE


  18. - archpundit - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 12:27 am:

    I should have spelled it wrong dammit…

    The actual joetheplumber.com was registered in 2004.


  19. - Loop Lady - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 7:31 am:

    McCain blinking his eyes…nasty, dismissive, disrespectful, negative, I couldn’t watch after an hour…

    Rahm Emanuel said McCain is like your crazy ol’ uncle standing on the front stoop in his slippers and bathrobe telling the neighborhood kids to get off the lawn…

    This election will be decided in the voting booth by folks who can rise above their bigotry and unease about race…

    The thing that really tees me off is that the media says Barack is Black, but is the child of a black man and and a white woman…I hope that we are entering a post racial period in American history, but won’t be convinced until Barack is victorious on 11/04…


  20. - Bill Baar - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 7:42 am:

    I hope that we are entering a post racial period in American history, but won’t be convinced until Barack is victorious on 11/04…

    What happens with Liberal talking points on race in a post racial America will be an interesting thing to see…


  21. - Dan S. a Voter and Cubs Fan - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 7:50 am:

    The media elected Obama back on that cold day in Springfield when he announced he was running for President. Why do we even waste the money on the campaigns and election?


  22. - Bill - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 8:00 am:

    Oh yeah, Dan. It was the media, not the general public repudiating the last 8 years of corrupt Republicans who caused an immoral and unjustified war that costs 12 billion a month, that gives billions of dollars of tax breaks to big corporations like oil companies, that gives the rich tax cuts while the poor starve and the middle class struggle to get by. It is the media’s fault, not the worst campaign ever run for president in the history of the US by the worst candidate ever.
    Typical Cub fan! Better luck next time!


  23. - Fan of the Game - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 8:03 am:

    I don’t like either of them very well as candidates. I despise Sen. Obama’s proposed policies. Sen. McCain’s proposed policies are acceptable at best.

    For me, McCain won the debate on issues; Obama won on style. We’ll see which of the two–substance or style–the American people value more.


  24. - The Doc - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 8:11 am:

    I agree with Bill on this one (sigh), and I’m a belligerent, self-medicating Cubs fan. McCain has run a truly lousy campaign. He had his moments last night, but once again turned into Scrooge.

    Notable and somewhat glossed over by the MSM thus far - he spoke of his running mate like he was her proud grandfather, and she just won a prize at the middle school science fair. The VP slot is not an internship, Senator McCain. It’s a real job, Dick Cheney notwithstanding.


  25. - wordslinger - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 8:24 am:

    It ain’t over. Nobody’s been elected anything yet.


  26. - wordslinger - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 8:25 am:

    And plumbers make great cash, as long as you can keep steady.


  27. - Deep South - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 8:43 am:

    When people blame the media, its because they don’t have anything else. For instance the McCain campaign. First, the stick to the issues, but Obama takes a lead that seems to be growing. So the McCain folks go negative. Obama lead still grows. So now the McCain folks are blaming the media. Its a classic pattern that can be traced to other candidates, too. Think about Sarah Palin.


  28. - Dan S. a Voter and Cubs Fan - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 8:44 am:

    And Bill, you support Blagoof. Nuff said.


  29. - Bill Baar - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 8:54 am:

    You can sit and tell McCain what he should have done, but with all the baggage that comes running as a Republican in a Democratic year on top of a financial crisis, I really can’t imagine what he could have said to turn it around last night.

    Here’s value adder on plumbing and HVAC contractors… average sales of $700k per year.

    I’ve got a 20-something expecting to start working part time for a small business in the city next month with the expectation of going ful time next year. Right now I pay her Hospitalization. I wonder if it will be worth hiring her if there is a mandate to offer her hospitalization and medical.

    That’s the calcululs that will play out and right now people aren’t thinking it through much… I have noticed some Obama supporters who also run small business strike me as reflecting a bit when they start seeing some of these plans in “real terms”. We can thank the plumber for that reality check.


  30. - VanillaMan - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 8:56 am:

    Voters cannot hear either candidate over the crashing of our economy. That is what will decide this election, not their messages, not the debates.

    Within the year, whoever is elected will be cursed at by the same people who elected him.


  31. - Rich Miller - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 9:01 am:

    ===Voters cannot hear either candidate over the crashing of our economy. That is what will decide this election, not their messages, not the debates.===

    If that somewhat sorry excuse is true, it means that voters so fully reject all Republican arguments and history that they’re willing to try anything else. That’s probably not the admission you want to make. lol


  32. - Rich Miller - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 9:02 am:

    ===I wonder if it will be worth hiring her if there is a mandate to offer her hospitalization and medical.===

    The plan exempts small bidness. If you’re gonna use standard DC talking points, try to use truthful ones. Thanks.


  33. - Rich Miller - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 9:04 am:

    From that site pointed to by BB…

    ===The average business in this industry, classified under SIC 1711, is privately owned and small - with $700,000 in annual revenues on average, employing 6 full time equivalent staff.===

    So, 700K in revenues and 6 employees makes it doubtful at best that the boss is making way over 250K.


  34. - Ultra50k - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 9:19 am:

    Can’t wait for Obama to start spreading the wealth. Then he’ll surely have to get out his trusty Blago scalpel and start closing down national parks and historic sites.


  35. - Bill Baar - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 9:22 am:

    Rich…but he’s sure trying to make over 250k…. that’s what it’s about…

    So where is the exemption for small business? I only see a tax credit: Create a new Small Business Health Tax Credit to help small businesses provide affordable health insurance to their employees.


  36. - VanillaMan - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 9:23 am:

    ==voters so fully reject all Republican arguments and history that they’re willing to try anything else==

    Yes, I think that is the situation. Everyone knows McCain. Voters will not apply John McCain to the situation we are in just as they won’t use a tow truck when they need a jet plane. There is nothing wrong with McCain, except the situation we are in requires more than towing.

    No one really knows Obama. Read his books - even he doesn’t know who he is. But voters in the current situation feel that McCain doesn’t fit, so they are willing to risk using Obama. Obama has deliberately portraited himself as an RV, a limousine, a sports car, a minivan, and an ATV. Voters know he can’t be all that, but they feel that the situation we are in requires someone other than McCain. Obama is winning by default.

    We’ve lost five years of economic growth in the Market over the past two weeks. I received my portfolio statement Monday. It said “liquidate ASAP”. As a free market guy, even I have to recognize that the politics over the past month, and into the next year, do not favor the party tied to banking, finance and industry - the GOP.

    McCain isn’t being heard. He has skated right over the edge in the opinion of most free marketers in his attempts to appeal to frightened voters. His economic proposals aren’t being heard.

    I knew that the war in Iraq wouldn’t be news by Election Day because the Surge succeeded. I knew that Bush wouldn’t be news, because no one gives a fig about any lame duck. But if I could have known that the Stock Market would lose nearly half it’s value two months before Election Day, then I would have looked twice at Mitt Romney, instead of McCain.

    If the GOP could have seen the future, they would have selected a new guy as their candidate, not a known quantity. Romney would have been heard last night, because voters would be open to his ideas regarding the market.

    The Stock Market will decide who the next president will be. Not because Obama can actually do anything, but because voters strongly feel that McCain can’t.

    Obama wins by default.

    No one is listening anymore.


  37. - Rich Miller - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 9:24 am:

    That’s not what JtP said in the video.

    This proposal appears to be a surtax on net income over 250K. So, if you net $251K, you pay a higher rate on 1K.


  38. - sticksandstones - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 9:27 am:

    Between 7:45 and 9:00 last night someone stole my Obama sign and that of a neighbor. Got a hunch who knows who did it. What gets me is the simple minded meanness that is reminiscent of the way Al Gore was treated a few years ago. Not saying the Democrats are blameless but I note a real bitterness coming from the conservative side of the street. They want it all and they want it now. What about the rest of us? We work hard. We serve our country. We pray to the same God, most of us anyway. So why has this become such a mean spirited campaign and why do simple minded people think stealing a sign makes a difference?


  39. - Captain Flume - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 9:38 am:

    Other memorable Veeps, who made names for themselves as veeps: Richard Nixon, Spiro Agnew, Dan Quayle. All Repubs, but the good news for Repubs is that Sarah Palin probably won’t have the chance to make that list.


  40. - VanillaMan - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 9:44 am:

    It is a good thing that Governor Palin knows who she is, what she believes, and knows what she has accomplished as governor because most people if they were her would soon tire of all the stupid insults made by stupid people.


  41. - Pot calling kettle - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 9:44 am:

    I was waiting for McCain to shake his fist at Obama and yell at him, “Get off my lawn!!!”

    All the while Obama sits there calm and cool and in control. The answers were beside the point (for better or for worse).


  42. - VanillaMan - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 9:55 am:

    ==I was waiting for McCain to shake his fist at Obama and yell at him, “Get off my lawn!!!”==

    Your response is spot on. Many voters have stopped listening and are deciding their vote based on what appeals to them. If they hate old people they see McCain as you do. If they hate ladies, they see Palin as cool, calm, in control, like Obama, but still dis the Governor with accomplishments over the empty-suit Senator Obama.


  43. - wordslinger - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 10:04 am:

    VMan, by your own twisted logic, if you don’t like Obama that means you hate…..?

    There’s some hatin’ going on, and you might want to get some reinforced glass for house.


  44. - VanillaMan - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 10:07 am:

    I voted for Obama twice. I also voted for Carol Mosely Braun - twice. Jesse Jackson Jr. Gus Savage, and Mel Reynolds.

    We have been open regarding race in this race, but refuse to call out sexists and agists.

    There are more people who will not vote for McCain and Palin for these prejudices than will not vote for Obama because of race.

    And it is a good thing that no one running is fat, because I could hear the fat jokes now…


  45. - doubtful - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 10:09 am:

    It is a good thing that Governor Palin knows who she is… -VanillaMan

    No one really knows Obama. Read his books - even he doesn’t know who he is. -VanillaMan

    You seem deeply confused to have posted both of those in the same comment thread. You do realize a lot of what Obama wrote about was coming of age and finding himself, right? So if…ah, why bother. The brick wall wins again.

    I’m not quite sure Sarah Palin knows who she is. She seems unaware of the fact that she was found guilty of an ethics violation last Friday.

    Or she’s blatantly lying to us. Which do you prefer? Illiterate or untruthful? Honestly, I don’t think they are mutually exclusive.

    Regarding the debate. Obama was his normal cool self. Lizard tongue McCain did not do himself any favors. You have to watch these debates through the eyes of an undecided or moderate voter, and they primarily focus on demeanor and style.

    McCain’s grunts, eye rolls, and child like ‘gotcha’ giddiness, and his uncontrollable tongue completely sank him.

    Not to mention almost every answer he gave was a debunked lie from the first and second debates. When everyone who cares is on the Annenberg (there’s that name again) FactCheck.org mailing list, he has to realize he can’t get away with the lies.

    As Nate Silver at FiveThirtyEight.com said a day ago, we’re in ‘dead girl, live boy’ territory now. Nothing short of that will cause Obama to lose.


  46. - Say WHAT? - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 10:09 am:

    I tried hard to watch without bias. The talk of wealth distribution scares me. Thae talk of changing our country scares me. It makes me angry. This is the best country in the world. We are off course at this moment. We need to get back on course, not rebuild the ship! I want the President to help get us back on course, not change everything altogether, and make government bigger. Its already too big, that has caused many of the problems that have put us in the mess we are in today. The government decided that everybody, regardless of ability to pay (income) should be able to own a home. Bigger government = Bigger hole. As far as the rest of the debate, I wasn’t impressed that much with either of them. Obama kept repeating talking points. McCain tried to attack. It was weak, like boxing with feather pillows is slow motion. McCain did make good points about creating an atmosphere that would be hostile to businesses if taxed at a higher rate. It isn’t that hard for businesses to make $250.000. It would be a negative thing to punish those who provide jobs for the rest of us. Seems like there would be more of an incentive to stay down low where the refunds are. I am trying not to get caught up in hype. I am focused on who is most qualified to get us back on track. We need a leader, not a dictator.


  47. - wordslinger - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 10:10 am:

    Vman, you were impressed the qualifications of Gus and Mel to serve in Congress?


  48. - Secret Square - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 10:19 am:

    Whoever wins this election is going to face a really rough four years, and will probably get blamed (unfairly, but blamed nonetheless) for a lot of what takes place.

    The economy is headed for a deep recession at least, probably lasting at least through the first two years of the next president’s term. Not to mention the possibility of another terrorist attack or major foreign policy crisis.

    Perhaps the Republicans, as a simple matter of strategy, would do just as well to hand off this mess to the Dems and let them take the blame for whatever happens in the next four years.

    If Dems control both houses of Congress as well as the White House, voters will have no one but them to blame, as is the case with our governor and General Assembly.

    While I am generally conservative, will vote for McCain, and think the Democrats have become way too dominant, Obama, liberal though he may be, will probably do at least an acceptable job as president and it certainly won’t be the end of the world if he wins (as some conservatives would have us believe). Hopefully he will realize that governing is not the same as campaigning — something Blago never learned.


  49. - VanillaMan - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 10:34 am:

    Gus Savage was the status quo and if you live in the Congressional District there, you know there wasn’t what one would consider real GOP opposition at the time. Back then I cast votes even for candidates without political opposition.

    Mel Reynolds sold himself as a Rhodes scholar and a moderate, compared to Savage. Back then, we depended on newspapers to vet candidates, and no one went out there and discovered Reynold’s lies. Also consider the fact that this Congressional District is not politically competative in November, and it is no surprise that the Media didn’t cover Reynolds.

    As to the anti-Palin Democrats, I saw how Hillary Clinton was mistreated by her own party. I saw how Geraldine Ferraro was mistreated by her own party. Now I see similar political attacks against Palin by, don’t tell me, the Democrats. Palin has no Rezko, no ACORN, no Ayers, no “present” votes such as Obama, and instead has a sky-high approval rating as governor, overthrew the corruption within her own state GOP, cut taxes and let the legislature and the free market unblock the largest public works project in her state’s history held up by cronyism and corruption - but she is portraited as a lightweight? Get real! The Media was angry that a pro-life woman governor with charisma and a record could end up in national office. Hence the vulgar photos of her legs, her extreme close-up as a Newsweek cover, and other smears. Even the LA Times slammed CNN over their bias against her.

    ==You have to watch these debates through the eyes of an undecided or moderate voter, and they primarily focus on demeanor and style.==

    Undecided or moderate voters don’t consider one of the candidates “lizard” tongued, eye rollers with childish glee.

    …and the old “dead girl or live boy” scenario no longer hold if the accused is a Democrat.


  50. - Bill - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 10:38 am:

    VanMan,
    In many ways you are like the McCain campaign. You don’t want to admit that it is the failed policies of 8 years of republican rule, six in the Congress, that have,once again, brought this country into crisis. You’d rather talk about Barack’s background and character and how cute Strawberry Shortcake is.
    Self proclaimed “de-regulators” were asleep at the switch(probably on purpose) while fat cats on Wall Street made billons selling phony credit warrants.
    It took 8 years of a Democrat in the White House to clean up the mess from the last Bush. It will take at least 8 more to clean up after this one. Clinton left the White House with a budget surplus. Bush squandered it and continued to give the rich tax breaks while the rest of us struggled.
    It is our turn now. I’d sell your global equities if I were you.
    Global economy my “you know what”.


  51. - Silverback - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 10:39 am:

    Maybe not Secret Square, Google 12-21-12


  52. - doubtful - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 10:53 am:

    VanillaMan,

    I never said *I* was an undecided or independent. You are clearly underestimating the degree to which body language influences who wins these debates.

    So sure, they may not call it ‘lizard tongued,’ but you’re naive if you don’t think it was noticed and commented on. Unlike you, however, I can imagine an undecided voter calling McCain’s eye rolls childish, especially since one of them did last night in one of the focus groups.

    Palin has no Rezko, no ACORN, no Ayers, no “present” votes such as Obama… -VanillaMan

    Obama has no Rezko, ACORN, or Ayers, either. If there was any substance to any of those bogeymen, we’d have heard it. We haven’t. And even Rich has debunked the present vote bull here several times.

    Trotting that out means you’ve got nothing. You’re regurgitating more than Sean Hanity now.


  53. - Phil Collins - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 11:04 am:

    I’m conservative, and I think that McCain did very well, especially when he said, “Why do you want to increase anyone’s tax rates?” and, “You’re not running against Bush. If you wanted to run against him, you should have run four years ago.”


  54. - scoot - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 11:04 am:

    The Dems always win the Presidential debates…then they end up losing the election.


  55. - doubtful - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 11:17 am:

    “You’re not running against Bush. If you wanted to run against him, you should have run four years ago.” -Phil Collins

    I thought that was a good line, too, but it didn’t move the needle for him last night.

    To top that off, that line is already in the new Obama commercial which concludes with the line “I voted with the president over 90% of the time — higher than a lot of my even Republican colleagues.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PluoMotgl2w


  56. - VanillaMan - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 11:18 am:

    Bill -

    I googled “failed policies of 8 years of republican rule” and got a link to a leftist group web site.

    The only people peddling that line of crap are short sighted partisans and Obama.

    You love government so much, but what we are going through is because your beloved government was bribed to look the other way as Fanny May and Freddie Mac enforced banks to make bad loans, backed by Joe the Plumber’s tax dollars. All in the name of getting people into homes.

    Now I support that mission. I believe home ownership to be a great community stabilizer. But you don’t stop regulating these government corporations because they contribute to Barney Frank’s, Barack Obama’s, Christopher Dodd’s and other powerful Democratic leader’s campaign coffers.

    Yes, Republicans were asleep at the switch, but the majority party in control over Congress - your’ve idols, were partying with our money. Yes, after several years, there was a lot of dead wood that needed oversight and pruning, but it was your pro-government idols who lit the match that burned down the house.

    The greed and corruption you claim is sole responsibility of Bush and the GOP, was rampant within both parties and especially within Congressional Democrats, who are now claiming their corruption and greed was caused by “the failed policies of 8 years of republican rule”.

    When Pelosi and Reid took over, they claimed they would make changes. They’ve done nothing. Their record of accomplishments is as thin as Obama’s. Now the three of them are on the verge of taking over and implementing their plans on “spreading the wealth” with our money instead of us spreading our own wealth without threat of imprisonment for not paying their taxes.

    You and your leftist buddies think they have the keys to Gore’s lockbox, but don’t realize that it has already been emptied by their lobbyist friends who paid for their elections.

    ==Obama has no Rezko, ACORN, or Ayers, either.==
    You want to believe that, don’t you?

    For a political party who is so quick to label those of us with faith as traditional ignorami, it is shocking to see them rally around Barack Obama’s faith-based campaign. He has almost no record of accomplishments and have been running for president since Day 2 in the US Senate. It takes a lot of faith to fall for this messiah.


  57. - Lefty Lefty - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 11:24 am:

    Here we go, VM—

    Palin has no Rezko—

    Google “Mark Chryson”

    No ACORN:

    Neither does BO

    No Ayers:

    Google “Steve Stoll”

    No “present” votes such as Obama:

    Google “Wasilla rape kits”

    Has a sky-high approval rating as governor:

    Immaterial

    Overthrew the corruption within her own state GOP:

    Google “palin Wasilla corruption”

    Cut taxes:

    Google “Wasilla hockey complex”

    Let the legislature and the free market unblock the largest public works project in her state’s history held up by cronyism and corruption:

    I’ll give you that one since I am going to lunch.


  58. - Secret Square - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 11:32 am:

    Well, Silverback, it seems to me that if those predictions (based on the end of some significant cycle in the ancient Mayan calendar, plus other stuff having to do with sunspots, planetary conjunctions and the Milky Way) are true it will be “the end of the world” regardless of who gets elected president. If that’s the case, as I said before, might as well let the Democrats take the blame :)

    Of course, those of us who remember Y2K, Iben Browning and the Jupiter Effect take such predictions which a huge grain of salt.


  59. - Rich Miller - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 11:36 am:

    Silverback, what the heck was that about?


  60. - Ken in Aurora - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 11:38 am:

    Rich, this topic will not end well…


  61. - doubtful - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 11:39 am:

    ==Obama has no Rezko, ACORN, or Ayers, either.==
    You want to believe that, don’t you?
    -VanillaMan

    If you’ve got factual evidence to the contrary, let’s see it. If you’ve got insinuation, hearsay, rumors, or talking points, fuhgedaboutit.

    Look, only one of the current candidates has been found in violation of ethics laws. Only one current candidate was involved in a previous banking scandal for which he was censured. Those are simply facts.

    You can ballyhoo about lobbyist this and lobbyist that, but again, the facts of who is on McCain’s campaign staff clearly show he has no problem with lobbyists.

    Yes, Republicans were asleep at the switch, but the majority party in control over Congress… -VanillaMan

    Again, the facts and your assertions are not remotely close.

    For twelve of the last sixteen years, the Republicans controlled all or most of Congress with the Democrats controlling the two years bookending those. Newt Gingrich and Denny Hastert would be ashamed how quickly you’ve forgotten them.

    What control the Democrats have now in the Senate is tenuous and hinges on the support of independent Joe Lieberman who is a McCain surrogate.

    Though I’d love to continue, I’m loathe to go on dismantling your tripe lest I invite Rich’s wrath for going off topic. I’ll just leave you with my incredible disappointment in your disdain for the facts. It really is disheartening.


  62. - Rich Miller - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 11:43 am:

    Ken, you’re probably right.

    Everybody get back to the debate, please. Thanks.


  63. - Old Elephant - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 1:00 pm:

    This is classic Obama. Starts out with a statement to indicate that the person in disagreement has a valid point and then dismisses the legitimacy of the concern and proceeds to argue that he (Obama) was right all along and if you’ll just listen “to my superior logic you’ll see I’m right, you fool!”

    Anyone who ever heard Obama in debate in the Illinois Senate will recognize the pattern. This is a man who is certain of his positions and world view and certain that he is right and those who disagree are wrong.

    I hope all the people demanding “change” recognize that if they think we’ve had eight years of a president who doesn’t care to hear opposing viewpoints, they ain’t seen nothing yet.


  64. - Secret Square - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 1:01 pm:

    “Silverback” was referring to a prediction going around on various New Agey internet sites that the world will end on Dec. 21, 2012, because 1)all the cycles of the ancient Mayan calendar supposedly come to an end on that date, 2) there’s going to be some huge increase in solar activity around that time, 3) there’s going to be some kind of planetary conjunction or movement of the solar system with respect to the rest of the Milky Way galaxy that, allegedly, will play all sorts of havoc with gravitation and other stuff.
    Like I said, if you remember all the hype about Y2K, Iben Browning’s New Madrid quake predictions and the supposed disastrous effects of the Jupiter Effect planetary conjunction in 1982, you realize that such predictions require a very, very big grain of salt.


  65. - Siyotanka - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 1:15 pm:

    Something that wes not brought up in the debate…could be a sore subject???

    http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/From_Baghdad_to_Chicago:_Rezko_and_the_Auchi_empire


  66. - doubtful - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 1:19 pm:

    Turns out, McCain’s go to guy, Joe the Plumber, is not licensed to plumb.

    He claims he doesn’t need one because the business owner has one? Can anyone verify the validity of that statement?

    Because McCain went to his Joe routine so much last night, if Joe turns out to be a dud, it could be a cement block on his already sinking campaign.

    Poor Joe didn’t know what he was signing up for.


  67. - wordslinger - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 1:24 pm:

    Doubtful,

    “Licensed to plumb?” Joe Bond, 006?

    I give him credit — he’s willing to get down into the muck.


  68. - Ken in Aurora - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 1:24 pm:

    Rich, regarding this thread and today’s Question of the Day - did you sign up the makers of Paxil as a new CFB sponsor or something?


  69. - Dan S. a Voter and Cubs Fan - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 1:34 pm:

    While suturing a cut on the hand of a 75 year old rancher, whose hand was caught in
    the gate while working cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man.

    Eventually the topic got around to Obama and his bid to be our president.

    The old rancher said, ‘Well, ya know, Obama is a’Post Turtle'’.

    Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him what a ‘post turtle’ was.
    The old rancher said, ‘When youre driving down a country road and you come
    across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that’s a ‘post turtle’.

    The old rancher saw the puzzled look on the doctor’s face so he continued to explain.
    ‘You know he didn’t get up there by himself, he doesn’t belong up there, and he
    doesn’t know what to do while he’s up there, and you just wonder what kind of
    dumb ass put him up there to begin with’.


  70. - Secret Square - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 1:45 pm:

    The “post turtle” joke has been told about Sarah Palin, George W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, and any number of politicians of both parties for many years.


  71. - wordslinger - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 1:49 pm:

    I don’t get it. How’d he get his hand caught in the gate?


  72. - Squideshi - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 2:04 pm:

    No one “won” these so-called debates, because they weren’t really debates. They were glorified, essentially scripted, bipartisan news conferences; and we do the public a disservice whenever we continue to call them debates.


  73. - Bill - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 2:07 pm:

    Squid,
    Yeah, we shoulda had Cindy McKinney invited. It would have been a lot less boring. McCain would have really popped his cork with her at the table.


  74. - Black Ivy - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 3:00 pm:

    I am so BORED with the spin. McCain was a force to be reckoned with during last night’s debate.


  75. - Silverback - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 3:09 pm:

    Sorry Rich, I was just trolling. I didn’t think anyone would take me seriously.


  76. - VanillaMan - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 3:25 pm:

    ==Turns out, McCain’s go to guy, Joe the Plumber, is not licensed to plumb.

    He claims he doesn’t need one because the business owner has one? Can anyone verify the validity of that statement?

    Because McCain went to his Joe routine so much last night, if Joe turns out to be a dud, it could be a cement block on his already sinking campaign.

    Poor Joe didn’t know what he was signing up for. ==

    Why are we attacking this man? He didn’t ask to become debate fodder. What ever happened to asking a candidate a question without having thousands of Obamaniacs destroying them?

    Is this what Governor Blunt warned us about when he discovered Obamaniacs threatening Missourians with legal action if they question The One?

    Sick! Get off it, doubtful!


  77. - Squideshi - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 4:00 pm:

    Bill wrote, “Yeah, we shoulda had Cindy McKinney invited. It would have been a lot less boring.”

    That’s CYNTHIA McKinney; and remember, she has more experience in Congress than Barack Obama! :)

    Seriously, every candidate on enough state ballots to win the Electoral Collge vote should be permitted to participate in the debates; and that isn’t very many candidates at all. The problem is that the so-called Commission on Presidential Debates, isn’t really interested in serving in the public interest–it’s a private corporation, run by former co-chairs of the Democrat and Republican parties. In my opinion, both McCain and Obama demonstrate that they don’t support democracy by participating in such a sham.


  78. - Greg Knapp - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 4:19 pm:

    I have come around to seeing it a different way. I like them both. First, they have kept Mitt and Hillary off the ballot. While this campaign is spirited, I think it is far less polemic than it otherwise might have been. Obama is conceptually farther to the left than McCain is to the right, but I don’t see him as an ultra-liberal firebrand. He would undoubtedly pursue liberal or populist causes, but I am not convinced he would do so in a non-centrist fashion. McCain, for good or ill, has clearly shown that he will go with the right so long as he believes that it makes sense, but will not blindly follow a far right ideology. I can see either of them as president working with the other in the Senate, as well as with members of both parties. I can see either of them seeking to get things done by going to middle and working out like McCain did with the gang of 14 on the judicial nominations. I am hopeful that they will not lose each other’s phone numbers after Nov. 4. Most of all, I think each of them truly believes that he will be the elected servant of the people and not the elected master of the people. I cannot say that about others who might have been the candidates in this election.


  79. - doubtful - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 4:38 pm:

    VanillaMan,

    That’s not fair, not that I expected you to be fair, but McCain is the one who turned Joe into his entire debate platform, apparently with his permission, too.

    And your childish use of the terms ‘Obamaniacs’ and the Biblically laced ‘The One’ just proves you’re not serious.

    You cannot honestly tell me that if Obama had referenced a particular person in nearly every answer last night that reporters wouldn’t have been just as curious about that person.

    My contention was simply that any bad news about Joe would reflect poorly upon McCain because of how heavily McCain invested in him during the debate.

    Just another example of McCain not properly vetting his political gambits, as with Palin. If McCain wants to use this gentleman in his campaign than it behooves him to know if he is what he claims to be.

    Sick! Get off it, doubtful!

    Get over yourself.


  80. - How Ironic - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 4:53 pm:

    Just heard on NPR. “Joe the Plumber” doesn’t really want to buy the business. He was just posing a question. Also of note, Joe owes $1,200 in back taxes. Ooops.

    Here is the link to Bloomberg.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps
    /news?pid=20601087&s
    id=ak7GnW2GiKF4&refer=home


  81. - wordslinger - Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 5:40 pm:

    Greg, I’m with you. Putting aside the nonsense of a national campaign in a 24/7, cable tv, bloviating environment, we could have done a lot worse than McCain/Obama. And often have.

    I could live with either one of them. As always, events will dictate.


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