76 Comments - so... - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 10:37 am: I was at the Kirk town hall and it went incredibly well. People were largely respectful and Kirk did his best to answer their questions fully and honestly. I even saw people who came in with the “Health Care for America NOW” signs starting to nod along with his points. - Scooby - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 10:38 am: Bill Black is retiring (at least for now) and Jim Edgar is seriously looking at running for that seat. Brett Favre is coming out of retirement and Bill Daley is thinking about running for something. On a side note, given the above company, how did Bill Black and Sneed not become best friends years ago? What a missed opportunity. - VanillaMan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 10:39 am: The measure being proposed doesn’t provide health insurance coverage to undocumented immigrants. Yeah - but how does one prove citizenship? The bill loosens the requirements to prove citizenships in a mode similar to the new CHIPS program. Are illegal immigrants receiving health care? Well - yeah! Take a look at the crisis in California. You want proof? Take a look at their situation. Without a means to require proof of citizenship, you have a toothless law - like the one Congress is trying to cobble together here. Kirk is saying that he is opposed to providing health care to illegals. Everyone agrees with that. What he is also proposing is a means to prevent illegals from receiving it because the amendments to create a system to prevent it has been consistently voted down. - VanillaMan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 10:43 am: So let’s all think good thoughts about Illinois Republicans. It’s as if you have a disliked neighbor — the mean old coot at the end of the block who yells at your kids if their ball rolls onto his grass. How would it sound if he wrote this…”So let’s all think good thoughts about Illinois Democrats. It’s as if you have a disliked neighbor — the stoned senior hippies at the end of the block who walk around naked in front of your kids when they play ball in the back yard.” If you want to think good thoughts, write good thoughts! - Abe Froman - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 10:49 am: Kirk seems to be past the muddled “exploratory” phase and is now showing why the Dems are fearful of his candidacy. He dives into the most contentious issue around and works without a net. This could have been a disaster but he handled it extremely well and came out looking like a leader. Every TV station covered it and Kirk came across very well. It was interesting too that the Democrats tried to drum up protests at the town hall through e-mails sent out by the Tenth District Democrats who have dogged Kirk for years. While Pelosi and her ilk attack town hall attendees as fronts for the GOP, the insurance companies, the Trilateral Commission, the Vulcans or whoever, it is the Dems who are calling out their partisan agitators to try and disrupt town halls. - Capitol View - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 10:51 am: I was one of many who urged Bill Black not to retire two years ago, despite his bad back. I now regret that recommendation, even though I will miss him whenever he retires — he and the other 176 mushrooms across both chambers have not had much fun or been at all effective under the reign of the current Speaker. Why not retire? Bill’s problem is that he lets persons talk him into returning. He needs to run for higher office and lose, as the gracious way of exiting politics. SoS or AG, Bill? - Will County Woman - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 10:58 am: I agree with Kirk 100%+ about not providing tax-payer funded services to illegals, but let me be clear that we should for asylum seekers. Given his vast knowledge of international affairs, I trust Kirk will agree with me and understand why I make the distinction. From the excerpts of I saw of Kirk’s two town halls, he came off well. very well in fact! his was an ordered and controlled audience, that was by no means a stepford wife audience with everyone being lock-step republican/conservative. there was discussion and disagreement, but it was all civil. I especially like the fact that he acknowledge that he learned somethings yesterday that he had not considered. and that just reiterated for me, a moderate democrat, why he’s exactly the type of person that Illinois needs to send to the U.S. Senate. I give Mark Kirk and A+ for how he conducted himself and handled and his town hall meetings. he put a lot of his fellow federal lawmakers to shame (e.g., barney frank etc) - wordslinger - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 10:58 am: Nice to see Kirk contributing more disinformation to the mindless health-care “debate.” Still, I did enjoy seeing Kirk on the TV news calmly slam some arm-waving screamer who said he was in the tank for the insurance industry because of some contributions (who doesn’t get contributions from big insurance?). I doubt if the old New England Yankees would recognize this summer’s “Town Hall Meetings.” Didn’t their mothers teach these people manners? It’s seems like every loony on the left and right wants to be the next Joe the Plumber. Let’s hope no one wants to be the next Travis Bickle. - Fire Ron Guenther - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:02 am: I’d be happy with Bill Black on the UI BOT. - VanillaMan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:05 am: Let’s hope no one wants to be the next Travis Bickle. The next thing we’ll read is that there is some kind of assassination movie about the President - you know - kinda like when Bush was president. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:15 am: VMan, take your Ritalin, dude. - Anon - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:20 am: Yeah, in his next speech, he going to come out against allowing the Federal government to cut off the big toe of everyone’s left foot, which is also NOT in the health care reform bill. I’m sure he’s against strangling puppies, too. - dupage dan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:24 am: wordslinger, You went from people being rude at a town hall meeting to a reference to Travis Bickle. Who forgot to take his Rx this am? - wordslinger - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:33 am: DD, my point is these folks obviously want their 15 minutes. History has shown some want it more than others. - Anon down south - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:35 am: Bill Black on the UI BOT certainly would make things more interesting and entertaining. - MrJM - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:37 am: More than most, Neil Steinberg should know that the first step is admitting you have a problem. And the IL GOP isn’t willing to take that first step yet. – MrJM - VanillaMan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:40 am: Yeah, in his next speech, he going to come out against allowing the Federal government to cut off the big toe of everyone’s left foot, which is also NOT in the health care reform bill. But what would you say if an amendment to prevent cutting off the big toe of every American was consistently voted down? Would you take a stand then? (pun intended) Kirk is taking a stand against a loophole which is being created. Denying that the loophole may exist, but not used - is a flat-out lie, especially considering that a similar loophole is bankrupting health care programs across the US. - dupage dan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:41 am: wordslinger, =History has shown some want it more than others= I wonder how many US citizens out of the millions who voice their displeasure actually take up arms to silence those they disagree with? Why bring up the truly rare instance (and in the case of Bickle, fictional) and raise it to the level of the typical? It’s not humorous - it’s just boring. - Skeeter - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:46 am: “Kirk seems to be past the muddled “exploratory” phase and is now showing why the Dems are fearful of his candidacy” Actually, the opposite. This sort of “blame the Hispanics” [and we all know that when they talk about illegal aliens, they are referring to Mexicans and not Poles] is the sort of move that is going to make moderates think he’s just another crazed right winger. If he keeps going like this, it will be another typical Illinois election. - so... - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:46 am: Just to address the Illegal Immigrant question… As I stated before, I was at the town hall. And as I recall, he was responding to a question that specifically asked if he would oppose any attempts to extend coverage to illegal aliens. Kirk was responding to a question from a constituent, not setting up a straw man just so he could knock it down. - Carl Nyberg - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:48 am: Let’s start a pilot program. The people who believe health care providers should screen for citizenship can be the experiment group. For three years the experiment group can be required to prove their citizenship before they receive health care. If the program is a success for three years then we’ll expand it to everyone else. - Will County Woman - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:49 am: @- Anon - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:20 am: ;-) yeah right. it’s not like we don’t have immigration laws on the books in this country that aren’t being respected and enforced. it’s not as if government actually does what it says it will and doesn’t do what it said it wouldn’t, right? - wordslinger - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 12:01 pm: DD, I’m not sure what your problem is with my post. I’m bemoaning yellers, screamers and wack jobs of every political stripe who insert themselves into the political process not to solve problems or to express their views (which is really easy to do without yelling and screaming), but to get on TV, to get a bit of fame. Of those, you’ve got Joe the Plumber on one end (choose any left, right or loony example that you wish), and Travis Bickle on the other end — the extreme. If you don’t like that fictional one, choose anyone you want from recent history. They’re rare, but not rare enough. I’m not being humorous, I’m not being partisan, I’m wishing for civil discourse. I mean, if you go to church and the preacher says something you don’t agree with, you don’t get up and start waving your arms and screaming. Or at the Kiwanis Club, or high school booster meeting. Do you? - dupage dan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 12:05 pm: If illegal aliens weren’t able to get drivers licenses or state ids or other forms of ids that can clarify their status then it would be a simple thing. As it is, you can register to vote and only have to provide proof of residence in the district where you wish to vote. Amazing! Some communities are refusing to deport people who have violent criminal histories. The results in some cases have been truly horrific. We need fresh blood in this country and I am all for expanding the immigration programs. It would be essentialy for those who come here to have in their minds that they wish to become Americans in their hearts. Those who are here illegally must pay for their crimes thru fines, to show their true desire to become a part of this greatest nation. What I have read is that most illegals live in a shadow, underground, economy and pay little in income taxes. This means they won’t be paying anything towards their health care. The rest of us will. That inequity is what is angering many. If it is not the intent of the federal gov’t to provide health care to illegal aliens why is it so hard to have a clear provision in the bill with actual language providing a system to enforce same? - RobRoy - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 12:13 pm: Travis Bickle and/or Dirk Digler, both infamous fictional icons of the silver screen and with catchy names but nothing whatsoever to do with the Illinois polical landscape. - dupage dan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 12:17 pm: Weird choices, there, wordslinger. The preacher doesn’t hold onto my wallet and force me to pay for others misfortunes. It is purely voluntary in church. The Kiwanis Club members ask for donations on the street and provide for programs that benefit people. Donate your time/money as you choose. I don’t even get the comparison of a high school booster meeting and the town hall meetings we are discussing. We are talking about fundementally changing a huge part of the way our country works - I have heard about 1/5 of our economy. That doesn’t compare to your booster meeting, does it? Polite discourse went out the window when we learned that the whole thing will be decided before the end of this year - September is the target date. People became very upset when it appeared that this was going to happen with minimal input from voters. Dick Durbin won’t even be holding a town hall meeting in this state. That will not endear him to voters. And make no mistake about it - voters are angry. People who vote are rising up. Seniors are not a constituency you want to make mad. Don’t &!$$ on someone’s lawn, tell them it’s free fertilizer and then make fun of them when they complain. That ain’t the way to win friends and influence people. Or get their votes. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 12:18 pm: ===People became very upset when it appeared that this was going to happen with minimal input from voters=== There was an election last year. Move along, please. - VanillaMan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 12:25 pm: “The time for talking has ended.” - President Obama July 14, 2009, regarding health care reform. “We won” - President Obama, addressing critics. “There was an election last year. Move along, please” - Rich Miller, addressing a poster who points out that people didn’t feel included in the health care debate. - Shore - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 12:32 pm: FYI, Kirk’s district voted for Obama roughly the same percent as state, not a wingnut bunch and for the record, Kirk studied in mexico, is fluent in spanish and is about the only republican that doesn’t think foreign aid is a four letter word. Not a crazy there. There’s no excuse on Durbin or any other Illinois dem not having town halls on health care. The senator to the north of us, feingold, who i respect a lot despite my republican leanings, every year goes to every county to meet with voters. Durbin and bean on the other hand unlike kirk, and obama and barney frank, can’t be troubled to sit for an hour in glencoe or lincoln park to discuss the signature issue of obama’s campaign in his home state? this isn’t west texas. - votecounter - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 1:11 pm: Rich Did you say that when W wanted to privatize a small percentage of social security? He had majorities in both houses and governors mansions? W didn’t even want to force it through in 2 weeks! Without anyone reading it? Nobody voted for the government taking over 1/5 of the private sector without public input! BTW The Supreme Court has mandated that illegals have to be covered. The only way to prevent it is to specify it in the law when it’s written. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 1:11 pm: DD, for the record, if you care to read my original post, I was commending Kirk for calmly and effectively rebutting a pro-administration “arm-waving screamer.” I’m not assuming, as you seem to be, that all the yellers and screamers who want their 15 minutes are in the opposition. Civil discourse on any subject can and should be just that, in any setting, by everyone. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 1:13 pm: votecounter, what I was trying to do was to get the discussion out of the rut. Probably a poor choice of words, but in this country we do have elections and health care was a huge issue last year, unlike social security in 2004. Again, move it along, please. - dupage dan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 2:05 pm: wordslinger, If you read my responses to your comments you will note that I didn’t reference either side in the debate as being the source of the arm waving until the last one and then only to clarify why people have become frustrated in this debate. I agree with you that some people are public whiners and get emotional when the cameras are on. The political process is a wild and crazy one. You get all types. If it is too much for the politician I think they are hiring at Burger King. I just didn’t appreciate the reference to Mr Bickle as the likely next logical step in the progression from arm waving public spectacle to assassin. That’s histrionics in my book. - Adam Smith - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 2:09 pm: Rich, thanks for getting everyone off the immigration track. I was at the Kirk town hall and it accounted for very little of the discussion. Bottom line is that Kirk took a big risk (one that Foster, Bean and Halvorson aren’t willing to take) and opened this event to all comers, and he came out a big winner. He knows that to win the Senate race he has to be aggressive. He never made rash or strident statements about the Dems or the president, but was measured in his opposition and backed his case up with facts and figures. - We marched and we are voting - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 2:17 pm: Congressman Kirk has made a habit of teeing off against Latinos on illegal immigration. He voted for the bill that would turn me into a felon for helping illegal family members; said that birth control is the solution to Mexican illegal immigration from the floor of Congress; and constantly talks border security and illegals getting taxpayer funded healthcare, such as this disinformation. But now he wants to represent the whole state - which includes over 300,000 Latino voters. The Illinois Immigrant Coalition has a post that points out the foolishness of not also addressing solutions for the 400- 500,000 “illegal” immigrants in Illinois and their many voting family members: http://icirr.org/en/reform-immigration-america/new-voter-data-should-be-wake-call-congressman-mark-kirk-immigration-refo Kirk will go the way of Oberweis in 14 and Mayor Hyde in Waukegan if he cannot get past cheap anti-latino rhetoric and move on to solutions! - Anonymous - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 2:38 pm: Wow…where to begin?!!! I could go on for hours about yesterday’s event and how well Mark Kirk did. -so…’s observations are absolutely accurate. I attended the 2nd meeting and was walking around chatting with folks outside prior to, and during, the first. I was extremely surprised by conversations I had with people who were expressing very strong opposing views on, e.g., healthcare, social issues, etc., because even they readily admitted how much they respected Mark Kirk for his service record, positions on national defense, and how hard he’s worked to help our Veterans. I truly did not run across one person–who once engaged in a civil discussion–could not see something good in Kirk’s many accomplishments. WCW, you might not have been there, but you’re right on target with your 10:58 analysis of what the Press have published. To take the comment regarding his acknowledgement re: “learning something yesterday”: It wasn’t only how well–and extremely politely–he was able to keep folks focused on their questions so he had time to reply to as many as he possibly could (even a VERY determined little one who seemed to be trying out his opposition wings for the first time), but he seemed to genuinely (emphasis added) enjoy being, and working with, his Constituents. So much so that at the end of the second meeting, he asked whether they’d like to “do it again”–to which he received a very enthusiastic and positive “Yes!” from even those who were very obvious in expressing opposition to many issues beyond even healthcare. I have had some front row seats from where I’ve watched some amazing candidates debate and otherwise campaign–and from where I’ve seen elected officials work with their Constituents. After yesterday’s event, I can state–without any doubt whatsoever–that Mark Kirk is setting a new and positive precedent as to how we should EXPECT our elected officials to work with us. My only hope is that others either have the skills–or will soon develop the skills–to do even half as well as Mark did yesterday so that we can all benefit from such open, candid, and civil discussions with our Leaders. The guy’s absolutely amazing, and I don’t think that there’s any end to what he can–and WILL do–for our State and our Country. - Shore - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 3:00 pm: The media in Illinois needs a head check. Kirk and Oberweis have about as much in common on immigration as vegans and carnivores do on the subject of meat. Kirk went out and heard the voters in a district that supported obama. Durbin and Bean and foster did not. If we had a media that wasn’t obsessed with the white house social secretary/lynn sweet or an heir to a rapidly fading political dynasty/every other chicago reporter, voters would get some honest context and see his leadership. For a real assessment of kirk’s town hall yesterday from someone that covers the north shore well, as well as why Kirk isn’t the GOP savior the pundit class thinks he is please go here. http://jeffberkowitz.blogspot.com/ - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 3:14 pm: Shore and others: I was on vacation, so wasn’t paying a lot of attention. So correct me if I’m wrong, but how many Republicans were ambushed at town hall meetings earlier this month? And how did those numbers compare to Democrats ambushed? I just don’t get this line of reasoning, except on a partisan basis. On that basis, I completely understand your tack. - Conservative Veteran - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 3:23 pm: Rep. Kirk is too nice to illegal aliens. He voted against a bill that would have required hospital employees to notify ICE employees, when the hospital treats illegal aliens. He receives high ratings (at least 90%) from La Raza. - dupage dan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 3:28 pm: We marched…., Just out of curiosity I went to the website - icirr.com. I couldn’t even find out “who we are” without registering. That is unusual. Not very friendly. I didn’t feel welcome there. I don’t find using internally generated statistics that can’t be verified by a secretive website to be very useful. Having said that it would behoove any candidate to be aware of the various consituencies within ones “district” and their concerns. Many Latinos I know who are proud Americans are concerned with illegal immigration. “Latinos” are not a monolithic entity. - Rob_N - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 3:31 pm: Shore, The Trib reported that the crowds at Kirk’s town halls were mostly in favor of the public option. The Daily Herald reported the exact opposite. How can both be reporting on the same event yet report “facts” that are directly opposite each other and, more importantly, how can we possibly expect their reporting to be “honest context” given this scenario? As far as Rich’s point about a two-fer … Mark Kirk has been immigrant bashing for years now. In fact, before Dan Seals came along (and even for a while there into 2006) Cong. Kirk kept calling illegal immigration the “#1″ concern of his district despite the fact the Iraq War was the leading concern. - Rob_N - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 3:34 pm: PS - “Town Halls” aren’t the only way to converse with constituents. Small group meetings, teleconferences, door to door, etc are all options that work just as well. And both Republicans and Democrats do them. - Obamarama - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 3:45 pm: I’m with Steinberg. I wish Rutherford all the luck in the world for championing such important causes as: @ Dan Rutherford: is pleased that the Governor signed legislation to protect martial artists - http://bit.ly/XtFMO Phew. What a relief. - Brennan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 3:46 pm: Shore: Thanks for linking to the Berkowitz report. That’s a great read. - Brennan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 3:49 pm: Rob_N: Is it possible that the Chicago Tribune was writing about the first town hall and the Daily Herald was reporting on the second town hall in regards to attendee sentiment on the “public option”? - Rob_N - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 3:56 pm: And another PS… Abe Froman said, “It was interesting too that the Democrats tried to drum up protests at the town hall through e-mails sent out by the Tenth District Democrats who have dogged Kirk for years. While Pelosi and her ilk attack town hall attendees as fronts for the GOP, the insurance companies, the Trilateral Commission, the Vulcans or whoever, it is the Dems who are calling out their partisan agitators to try and disrupt town halls.” Abe, Nancy Pelosi has incredibly little (if anything) to do with the Tenth Dems. The insurance lobby has poured $1.4 million a day into conservative-leaning “grassroots” organizations, Republican legislators, and conservative Dems to bolster the insurance companies’ cause. Somehow I don’t think the Tenth Dems got any money from the insurance lobby… I even wrote an email to friends letting them know that the expected Kirk town hall in Glenview at 7:30 last night was switched to 3 o’clock in Arlington Heights. The difference is (unlike Dick Armey, Matt Kibbe, Richard Scott, et al) no one paid me to send that email and “organize” people to go. Heck, I couldn’t even go anyway despite the fact I work literally 5 blocks from Village Hall. Not that easy to skip work for a last minute 3 p.m. meeting ya know. And Will County Woman wrote, “I give Mark Kirk and A+ for how he conducted himself and handled and his town hall meetings. he put a lot of his fellow federal lawmakers to shame (e.g., barney frank etc)” Will Co, you don’t specify which Barney Frank meeting you’re talking about but he did recently sarcastically ask someone what planet she was from. The woman was comparing Obama to Hitler. Context helps. - Obamarama - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 4:01 pm: ===Rob_N: Is it possible that the Chicago Tribune was writing about the first town hall and the Daily Herald was reporting on the second town hall in regards to attendee sentiment on the “public option”?=== 400 people is quite the sample size for one meeting. Does your experience with polling suggest that the same event held in the same building on the same day on the same topic would yield two separate consensuses on an issue as divisive as public option? It is much, much more likely that the Herald botched the reporting as usual. Am I saying there is no way that the crowd was anti-public option? Of course not. I am saying that there are very few things in the world that are as reliable as the Herald failing to adequately or objectively cover a public meeting. I have personally been in public meetings with DH reporters on dozens of occasions. It is mind-boggling how many times I have read their coverage of the meeting and questioned whether or not we were on the same planet let alone the same room. The Tribune is no crown jewel either, but if you are willing to give the DH the benefit of the doubt, I have some real estate you might be interested in. - Rob_N - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 4:02 pm: Brennan, Tribune: “The mostly middle-age and older crowd in the first session tended to be more in favor of a public option, while a more mixed age group in the second session backed ideas such as tort reform and increasing insurer choice.” Herald: “A majority of the crowd attending both sessions were Kirk supporters, but there also were critics who questioned his voting record on health care issues.” (FYI: The Herald has a very clumsy online updating protocol so their story has been changed and changed again numerous times online since first being published yesterday. It was originally more specific in that the attendees of the first session agreed w/ Rep. Kirk which is the opposite of what the Trib reported.) - Brennan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 4:18 pm: =The Herald has a very clumsy online updating protocol so their story has been changed and changed again numerous times online since first being published yesterday.= Man do I loathe that. Can I at least see the original words at the conclusion of the article or in a corrections/update section of the website? Obamarama: I’m not really inclined to take the complete word of the Tribune or the Daily Herald. I read their reports, then read the comments. I have far too many examples of the Tribune reporting almost the exact opposite of what actually occurred at events I have attended. You guys got any money? We can buy the Trib and install Rich as the editor. - reformer - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 4:20 pm: I believe Black has the distinction of being the last rep involved in a shoving incident on the floor when he pushed Terry Parke. - Rob_N - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 4:22 pm: SOL Brennan. Once the Herald updates it’s gone. The effective point is still the same even with this version though. - dupage dan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 4:24 pm: Rob_N, Immigrant bashing and being concerned about Illegal aliens are not the same thing. So, to say that Kirk is “immigrant bashing” for calling “illegal immigration the #1 concern” is being disingenuous. I believe that immigration should be expanded in this country but that it should be done thru legislation. I believe in the rule of law and that means that if you enter this country illegally you are a criminal. - Obamarama - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 4:29 pm: ===We can buy the Trib and install Rich as the editor. === If Rich is the editor of the Trib, and CapFax goes away, what is everyone in the IL Politico community going to do all day when they’re supposed to be working? - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 4:33 pm: ===I believe in the rule of law and that means that if you enter this country illegally you are a criminal.=== I’m no constitutional scholar, but I beleive if you enter this country illegally, you can expect due process. Maybe after that, you are a criminal, maybe not. Until you are convicted of a crime, then you are innocent in this country. You do understand the Rule of Law concept that you cited, don’t you Dan? - VanillaMan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 4:35 pm: Seniors Just Wanna Have Fun! - Lauper, enhanced by VanillaMan They show up in the morning light, The Panel asks “How long are you gonna fight?” You’re 82 years old, Ain’t it time to fold?, But folks, Seniors aren’t really done. Oh, yeah! They just wanna have fun! The phone rings in the middle of the night, An End O’ Life advisor says, “The Panel meets tonight!” Hey wait a minute here! I’m still breathing, I’m not done, It’s true, We’re no longer you-ng, But hey! We’re not yet… That’s all we really want….. Some fun in the Florida sun…. When our working years are done, Seniors, They wanna have fu-un, Seniors guys and gals, We’re not yet done! The Death Panel take a elderly guy, And tell him, “It’s your time to die!” But we wanna retire in the sun. Oh, Seniors, They wanna have fu-un. Oh, Seniors, Just wanna have That’s all they really want….. Some fun…. - dupage dan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 5:10 pm: 47th Ward, If you commit a crime, you are a criminal. If you are arrested for the crime you will have due process rights during the trial process. If you are found guilty of the crime you are now a convicted criminal. I am no constitutional scholar, either. I just go by common sense. If you came to this country illegally and are caught, I believe there are mechanisms in place for you to secure your rights while the process winds its way thru the courts. My point seems to have been lost in a semantical discussion. - Brennan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 5:20 pm: Dupage dan: it is not lost. It just had to take a detour through strawman county. - Anonymous - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 6:04 pm: ============= PS - “Town Halls” aren’t the only way to converse with constituents. Small group meetings, teleconferences, door to door, etc are all options that work just as well. ============== I wasn’t suggesting that all forums or methods of communication be replaced by Town Halls, Rob. I was merely trying to provide an assessment of how well yesterday’s “Town Hall” meeting went–and expressed a hope that others might schedule their own AND be as successful when and if they’re able. Considering what we’ve seen at prior Town Halls on the same topic, I wouldn’t have been at all surprised if everyone “shied” away from holding similar meetings for a while–or until a less “heated” topic surfaced. Having said that, I hope that folks–even if we don’t want to admit it here–will “entertain” the idea that it may take a bit more than just working out basic meeting logistics to ensure a successful meeting of this type. Mark Kirk, his Staff, all of Arlington Heights–especially their Park District and Police Department–put forth alot of effort into making sure things went as well as they did for those attending. (Thank you!!!) - Anonymous - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 6:22 pm: (I’ll just add one more thing and promise to stop taking up any more space on this thread.) I want to make it clear that I’m NOT challenging others to blindly follow suit–specifically because of public safety concerns that could arise if not handled well. I’m again merely stating that everyone involved did an exceptionally amazing job–especially under the circumstances. - 22Skidoo - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 6:53 pm: Keep in mind that it is illegal to deny _health care_ to anyone who is in need of it. Health care and health insurance are two different things. If you’re lying on the highway with your legs crushed to a pulp, no ER is gonna turn you away just because you can’t prove your citizenship; they would be breaking Illinois (and maybe federal) law. That’s different from whether or not you can sign up for an insurance plan if you’re in the country illegally. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 8:34 pm: Is dupage dan Dan Proft? lol. - Arthur Andersen - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 9:33 pm: Good luck and Godspeed Bill Black. Hope you get the UI gig. They need some Central Illinois common sense on that Board. - Bobs yer - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 9:35 pm: Washington has blocked immigration discussion for a year. But the illegal issue is the key to getting majority support on the health care issue. This will have to be resolved. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:30 pm: For those who think a public option for all Americans is being rammed down your throats, I can understand that, since it’s only been “discussed” since noted radical Harry Truman proposed it in 1945 (he claimed to have been born in Missouri; I say “Show Me.”) And, of course, you don’t want to get government involved in health care. Except for Medicare. And Medicaid. And VA hospitals. And county hospitals. I’m starting to think this whole idea of taxpayers footing the bill for health insurance is crazy. Here’s a way to keep the government from taking over the economy and running us down that road of that old Karl Marx. Let’s get government out of health insurance all together. That means all federal, state, municipal and school employees, we’ll take whatever governments are paying now for your health insurance and roll it into your base pay. Then, you can get your own health coverage or not. Let the free market rule. I suspect some of you out there who are outraged over what’s being discussed might have a different opinion if you didn’t have the security blanket of your own taxpayer financed health coverage. But I could be wrong. - DuPage Dan - Tuesday, Aug 25, 09 @ 11:43 pm: In discussing this issue with my learned attorney (wife) we concluded that while you are not technically a criminal for purposes of determining your eligibility for employment for instance (don’t forget to check that box), common sense dictates that if you were to commit a crime, whether or not you are caught, charged, convicted and sentenced, you are a criminal. Imagine you have committed an horrific crime (entering the country illegally does not apply), such as murder. Just because you haven’t been caught doesn’t mean a crime has not been committed. And if you are the perpetrator of said crime, caught or not, are you not a criminal for having murdered someone? Or are you positing that since you have not been caught, or convicted, that no one has been murdered? It strains common sense credulity. The legal dictionary defines criminal as (definition 1) “one who has committed a crime”. No mention of court proceedings in that definition. My attorney assures me that the first definition is the “most commonly used”. I am offended, tho. I thought I sounded smarter than Dan Proft. Oh well. I gotta get a better vocabulary. - 47th Ward - Wednesday, Aug 26, 09 @ 12:09 am: Well, no, of course not. Dan Proft is clearly smarter than you obviously, since you got married and he’s still single (rim shot). But seriously folks, Mr. and Mrs Dan DuPage agree you’re guilty as accused, of whatever it is they accuse you of. I guess that’s it then, isn’t it? A dutifly qualified and appointed panel (Dan and Mrs. DuPage) says if you kill someone in self defense, and because we all know killing is wrong, you are a criminal. The trial is a mere formality. Oh wait, that definition doesn’t apply if it’s self-defense, does it? And the definition doesn’t apply if you’re a juvenile when you kill someone. (ask Mrs. DuPage to look up juvenile law for you). So while the “rule of law” connotes a formal process before rights are denied, Mr. and Mrs. Dan DuPage will decide for us who the criminals are. I apologize to Dan Proft. DuPage Dan is someone completely different. - DuPage Dan - Wednesday, Aug 26, 09 @ 12:14 am: wordslinger, Now you are thinking like a real capitalist. Welcome to the bright side! I am a state employee and would have no problem with receiving my health care dollar as increased pay in order to find my own insurance. Health insurance as a part of employment was started during WWll as a means of streamlining war production facilities. Since most people stayed at their jobs for their entire careers this wasn’t a problem then. Now it is. Disconnecting health insurance from employment is something that the GOP is suggesting - you know, the party of no? Once people have cash on hand they are more likely to want to hold on to it rather than third party payers like an employer. Increasing co-pays and instituting health care savings accounts are another way to create a natural self limiting agent into the picture. Tort reform would help with skyrocketing costs but that is off the table in the current plan. I wonder why? Disconnecting health insurance from the employer would be a major undertaking. I am not starry eyed about it - it would be a big change. Saying that my health care insurance is taxpayer funded sounds like a provocation to me. However, every service you purchase or thing you buy has built in costs concerning benefits for employees. Unemployment, workers comp, retirement (401k’s, etc) as well as health care is considered a cost of business in the private sector but somehow is presented as some type of theft if taxpayers are involved. My union worked hard to get those benefits. Can my union be wrong? Remember, I am a taxpayer, too. Health care has to be paid by someone, doesn’t it? Who are you suggesting it be paid by? The tooth fairy? Medicare only works now because I am paying into it and not using it. It will likely be bankrupt before I retire (not so far away). Just because people get health care from that system and it does ok for them (my dad will tell you that) doesn’t meant that all is okey dokey. The system is overloaded & bankrupt (my dad will tell you that, too). I found that information easily - not hard to find. Why insist it is ok when the proof of imminent failure is within easy reach? Using Medicare as an example of a gov’t run healthcare system that works is a non-starter. Try to get good dental care under medicaid. Ain’t gonna happen. VA hospitals - good God, man don’t you read the papers? Cook County hospital has the most f…ed up accounts receivable imaginable. They can’t collect from people who can pay - no one cares since no one is accountable. That’s what happens when you get the gov’t involved. What a minute. Did I just dis myself? - DuPage Dan - Wednesday, Aug 26, 09 @ 12:31 am: 47th Ward, Just to clarify - you still ignore the point. However - I suggest you spend some time with a legal dictionary before you obfuscate the issue. Look up murder for starters. Rule of Law only means that no one is above the law and same should not be applied arbitrarily. I am only using common language to address the issue of illegal immigration. That phrase is in common usage throughout the country. How many illegal aliens have been convicted of that crime? Yet they can be, and are, referred to in that way by many more learned that I am. Simple enough. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Aug 26, 09 @ 7:07 am: DD, its quite easy to sing the praises of laissez-faire capitalism from the comfort of a state union job with state taxpayer-funded benefits that can never be taken away from you under the federal and state constitutions. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Aug 26, 09 @ 7:35 am: ===I am a state employee and would have no problem with receiving my health care dollar as increased pay in order to find my own insurance.=== LOL Please. Truly. That was ridiculous. - dupage dan - Wednesday, Aug 26, 09 @ 8:36 am: In what manner is that ridiculous? I am paid that money even if I don’t directly receive it. Anyone who would purchase health insurance with their own money would be doing the same thing. I am already paid that - it is only a matter of who controls the income. Nothing ridiculous about it. - dupage dan - Wednesday, Aug 26, 09 @ 8:40 am: wordslinger, I am not impressed that you try to present a moving target with your shifting rhetoric. Health care dollars come from somewhere no matter what type income you may have (or lack thereof). Or do you think that with the plan put forth by the current administration will free us up from all that nonsense? - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Aug 26, 09 @ 8:44 am: DD, it’s ridiculous because you obviously have no clue what it’s like to purchase health insurance on your own. Unlike people such as me, you’re part of a very large pool of insured, and your employer has the clout to negotiate far better rates. Good luck with that pipe dream. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Aug 26, 09 @ 8:55 am: DD, I’m under no illusions that the overall cost of healthcare is going to go down, ever. Due to the hard work and progressiveness of those who came before us, we live in a blessed society where people can lead longer, more fulfilling lives. That, coupled with the continuing extraordinary advances in medicine and pharmacology will lead to more expensive health care, no matter what. I think the ideas being kicked around now area geared toward brining everyone in under the tent while hopefully tamping down the upward cost spike. By the way, you get a lot more bang for your insurance buck as a state employee than you would as a private individual. And because of that collective power, the insurance companies can’t mess with you too much. You’re a lucky guy. A lot of people want in on the deal. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Aug 26, 09 @ 8:57 am: ===your employer has the clout to negotiate far better rates=== Not to mention what your insurer will actually cover. Stop while you’re behind, man. - dupage dan - Wednesday, Aug 26, 09 @ 9:29 am: Rich, I agree that I benefit from a pooled purchasing regime. That is something that should be available to more people - I just think that the pool shouldn’t have to be from an employer. I am not the one suggesting this - it comes from people far smarter than I am. I do not believe that having the gov’t involved will curtail costs unless the care offered is limited. Third party payer systems just don’t work very well. BTW - you have no idea whether or not I have had to purchase health insurance on my own. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.