* I just finished a panel discussion at Roosevelt University’s Schaumburg campus. The panel was led by the illustrious Paul Green. House GOP campaign director Kevin Artl, House Speaker Michael Madigan’s press secretary Steve Brown and Daily Herald political editor Joe Ryan all sat on the panel with yours truly.
Thanks to blueroomstream.com, you can watch the entire thing in two parts…
* And the DSCC has a new Mark Kirk hearts Sarah Palin video…
* Meanwhile, reaction is coming in from GOP gubernatorial candidates to Gov. Quinn’s plan to bring Gitmo prisoners to the Thomson prison.
First up, Andy McKenna…
“The only thing that makes less sense than trying to solve our budget crisis by bringing terrorists to Illinois is promoting this plan as if it were a good thing for Illinois families.
“Gov. Quinn appears to be taking an “Alice in Wonderland” approach to his role as governor; the state’s not really nearly bankrupt, and what we really need to do is bring some terrorists here.
“As Governor I would not support this extreme plan and I call on the General Assembly to act swiftly and decisively to put a halt to Governor Quinn’s attempts to put terrorists in our neighborhoods.”
Kirk Dillard…
“As governor, my first priority would be to ensure the safety and security of Illinois residents. Therefore, I oppose using the Thomson Correctional Center or any Illinois prison to house Al Qaeda suspects. Under a Dillard Administration, we will not make our state a potential target if any of these terror suspects stand trial and are convicted in an Illinois courtroom. This is a matter of national security, and I applaud the Illinois Republican delegation in Congress for standing firmly against the closing of the Guantanamo Bay detention facility.”
Dan Proft…
“This is a terrible idea that threatens the safety of Illinois residents.
“It is emblematic of the Obama administration’s erratic public policy choices. The President issues an edict that he will close Gitmo without a plan for the detainees there. Instead of keeping suspected terrorists off domestic soil, the President and Governor Quinn are poised to bring to Illinois those with the ability to operate beyond the walls of any prison.
“We should be utilizing the Thomson prison to relieve prison overcrowding in Illinois’ existing 28 state prisons. According to a report issued by Illinois Auditor General Bill Holland this fall, Illinois’ prisons are 32 percent over capacity currently.
“We should bring Thomson fully online in a way that addresses our current capacity needs and enhances the security of both frontline DOC workers and the general public instead of potentially endangering both by bringing persons suspected to be connected to terrorist networks to Illinois.
“I call on President Obama and Governor Quinn to rethink this poorly conceived idea.”
And Democrat Dan Hynes…
“I support President Obama’s commitment to close Guantanamo Bay because it’s important for America’s image abroad, and for our national security. The kneejerk, alarmist response by some to this news is not helpful, in my opinion. That said, there are more questions than answers right now, and I have serious concerns. I am going to withhold judgment until I have a chance to see all the details and understand the entire picture.”
Then there was conservative GOP US Senate candidate Patrick Hughes…
“I am vehemently opposed to bringing enemy combatants, including the Gitmo prisoners, to Illinois and was also opposed the closing of Guantanamo Bay. This is failure of leadership of the Democrats - from the President down to Governor Quinn. As U.S. Senator, I will enact policies that will advance America’s national security interests and oppose any plans that weaken those interests - like this one being proposed by the Obama Adminstration.”
And the IL GOP took a whack at Democratic US Senate candidate Alexi Giannouolias…
Illinois Republican Party Chairman Pat Brady today called on Democrat Alexi Giannoulias to end his silence on the biggest homeland security question to face the State of Illinois since September 11th.
While Governor Quinn, Senator Durbin and every other Democrat running for U.S. Senate says they support a plan to bring roughly 200 terrorists from Guantanamo Bay to Thomson, Illinois, Giannoulias refuses to take a position.
On Sunday morning, the Chicago Sun-Times reported that while Democrats Cheryle Jackson, Jacob Meister and David Hoffman all supported the plan, “other prominent Democrats, including Alexi Giannoulias, who is running for Senate…declined to take a stance on the issue.”
Last night, the Associated Press reported that the three Senate candidates reiterated their support at a candidate forum in Rockford, but “Alexi Giannoulias, the state treasurer, skipped the debate.”
“If Alexi Giannoulias cannot take a stand on a critical homeland security issue, he is not ready to be a U.S. Senator,” Chairman Brady said. “While Congressman Kirk leads the effort to defend the security of Illinois families and all other Democrats in the race state their position, Alexi Giannoulias declined to take a stance. Alexi’s silence is deafening.”
Republicans were able to milk the fear and anxiety from the 9/11 attacks for two of their most successful election cycles in recent memory.
Republicans don’t have policy ideas that appeal to voters so they try to make voters feel scared about immigrants and al Qaeda.
Whatever. People with half-a-brain know that prisoners who are incarcerated don’t represent a threat to the local community. The communities that have prisons asked for those prisons.
As Atrios has said repeatedly, the people incarcerated in Gitmo aren’t supervillians.
If Republicans respected the citizenry they wouldn’t talk to voters like they are ignorant fools.
dan hynes is talking out of both sides of his mouth (like a typical career politician), neither of which seem to grasp American national security concerns. Either you are for it or against it. America’s image abroad is much more than a camp for enemy combatants in Cuba. These same people that criticize us abroad the belgians that have their own history in the congo, the chinese, the russians, certainly these arab nations are not human rights all stars.
This is a really weird issue. Bob Barr, Grover Norquist, and David Keene of the American Conservative Union are accusing Mark Kirk of “scaremongering”.
shore, is it your position that the United States should aspire to reduce our respect for international law and human rights to be just slightly better than the worst examples we can find from other countries?
It’s ironic that the Dems are accusing the GOP of using ‘fear mongering’ when ‘fear’ is exactly what they used to push the stimulus package through, and ‘fear’ is what they are using even now to ram through a complete re-do of the health care system. I guess one team’s fear is another team’s moral justification.
The Kirk Loves Pallin vid gets my vote for campaign ad of the year…and I know we’re gonna see a lot more. Its gonna be hard to top that one!!!! As for terrorists in Illinois, don’t they know about USP at Marion. Puh-leeze.
Team America, what were the odds of bad stuff happening (unemployment rising and businesses folding) without a stimulus bill?
What are the odds that a terrorist prisoner will escape and do harm to the local community?
- Moving to Oklahoma - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 12:52 pm:
== Then there was conservative GOP US Senate candidate Patrick Hughes… ==
Would like to see Judge Don Lowery get some attention from time to time. He is a Conservative candidate for U.S. Senate who has 26 years of experience as a judge, and a bronze star winner in Vietnam.
That being said, the Mark Kirk video put out by the democrats is absolutely fantastic. Hilarious. Meanwhile back at the ranch, Proft continues to make more sense than anyone else on the issues.
Oh for crying out loud, there is an unrepentant domestic terrorist on the state payroll and still teaching our kids at the U of I in Chicago, even as we speak.
I’m talking of course about Bill Ayers.
Last year when Obama was insanely popular, especially in Illinois, none of these GOP candidates had the guts to say a peep about that. But now that Obama’s numbers have dropped a bit, now these chicken hawks see an opportunity and they are coming out of the woodwork with the scare game.
At least with Thomson, the terrorists would be under lock and key.
Carl, it’s not the people on the inside trying to get out that worries me, it’s all of their friends on the outside that would be trying to get them out and what happens in the process. Dig?
What is the big deal? All they need to do is make each terrorist bunk with some Chicago gang bangers and let Allah sort them out. That would teach them what terror really means.
OK, that truck backing up ad is great! However, I wouldn’t be very surprised to see that same truck tagged for a different (Democratic) candidate being backed up hard toward the left in an equally effective ad in this state, or other states. It’s a simple message in concept— but easily swings both ways. We may be seeing trucks in our dreams before this thing is over.
TA, comparing HCR and stimulus to the issue at hand is a ridiculous straw man.
The U.S. prison system already houses domestic and international terrorists. If your logic is that Thomson becomes a hot target by virtue of the fact that it would be home to a select number of terrorists, it needs to be explained why other prisons housing terrorists, including Gitmo, have not been targeted.
Does Thomson become a bigger target symbolically? Perhaps. But logistically, the lower 48 has many, many more high-impact and critical targets.
It’s fear mongering in the absence of reasonable discourse and constructive dialogue.
I don’t think there is a safety concern but on CNN last night, one of the commentators referred to “the Illinois Gitmo.” Is that how we want Illinois to be seen by the world. In our desire to help our Obama with a really messy problem, do we want to be known to the world as the state with the new Gitmo.
Maybe we should be more concerned about why Durbin and our Pat, the accidental guv, are so desperate to get this prison–in addition to helping Obama with a tough problem, of course. Maybe they are not as optimistic about economic recovery in the Midwest (or anywhere in the US) as the Democratic administration claims. And 2010 is coming up fast.
The DSCC did a good job of letting the middle of the road voters know Mark Kirk is not middle of the Road.
I heard on news radio this morning that there are many complaints that visitors to Thompson jail would be Al Quaeda linked, terrorist linked etc. and that would be an unwanted element traveling and staying in the area.
**not my views, just reporting what was being said on news radio this morning.
I don’t know if that really should be the scare to the Thompson jail, or if the distance of relatives, aquaintences to detainees would make this an issue.
Hynes is also smart siding with Obama since, Obama is very popular in this state.
===“As Governor I would not support this extreme plan and I call on the General Assembly to act swiftly and decisively to put a halt to Governor Quinn’s attempts to put terrorists in our neighborhoods.”===
Oh, Tugboat Andy, how rich. He makes it sound as though we are just going to release the detainees downtown Wheaton or something. We are sending them to prison, Andy. The only people who could claim they are being dumped into their “neighborhood” by being sent to Thompson, have been outspoken in favor of the plan due to the economic advantages.
That being said, we could just send them to 26th & California for a week.
I agree with the Republicans, we should remove all possible terrorists’ threats, real or unreal. We should also tear down the Sears Tower, the Capitol Building and all federal offices since they are possible terrorists’ targets.
- Small Town Liberal - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 1:46 pm:
I’m not trying to offend, but if GOP supporters are afraid of having terrorists imprisoned in Illinois, move to another state. It will make electing liberals much easier.
In all seriousness though, I do think this is a decision that shouldn’t be made lightly. I believe it could provide a lot of benefit with low risk, but I’m not exactly an expert on terrorists and their incarceration. If the people who are experts see more good than harm coming out of this, I’ve got no problem with it.
Um, hello — Marion anybody? I know it was noted above but all this ruckus seems a little silly since IL already houses some of the federal government’s worst cases.
As far as bringing terrorists to Illinois, well, it’s too late for that if the FBI is raiding Kinsman or the case of Ali Saleh Kahlah al-Marri of Peoria.
It seems to me that political candidates should have a little more faith in this country’s criminal justice system rather than running around screaming that the sky is falling.
just sayin’ - The Republicans can’t say anything about Bill Ayers terrorist past because his ComEd CEO deep pockets daddy helped him escape justice and then helped get rich off taxpayers money working for government. And his rich daddy was no Democrat either.
Why do we have a new prison sitting empty for 8 years? Shouldn’t we be firing the idiots responsible for THAT stupid waste of money? Like everyone starting with Madigan?
Apparently lost in the fear mongering and worry is the fact that this country needs a strong, definitive policy on what to do with these people. Another failure of the Republican and Democrat leaders.
Citizens expect their governments to keep them safe, or to make them safer. Not this. So it is understandable for liberals to run around pretending that everyone concerned about safety is too stupid to contribute to this discussion. After all, that is usually their response to any challenge - “you folks are too stupid to understand”, right?
The problems is, this is a real problem. If the Democrats want to sell a “What me, worry?” attitude - they will end up the losers. Citizens care about safety issues. The Democrats are on the wrong side, regardless of how they insult those who question the sanity of this decision.
So go ahead and keep insulting Illinoisans. But don’t be suprised when the voting results are in.
Giannoulais seems to be the only guy realizing this.
And tying Kirk to Palin is stupid DCCC. I’d rather have a senator who tried to hook up with his party’s former VP candidate, than a senator who had been hooked up to Rod Blagojevich for six years.
Palin-bashing is already old hat. But the Blagojevich trial will be a news around Election Day. So, which boogie-man/woman do you think Illinoisans are going to care about?
==So it is understandable for liberals to run around pretending that everyone concerned about safety is too stupid to contribute to this discussion. After all, that is usually their response to any challenge - “you folks are too stupid to understand”, right?==
You’re way off base, VanMan, the holier-than-thou tea party rhetoric notwithstanding. There’s been no discussion - only a swift and vicious verbal assault on the decision to relocate.
You wanna argue that it makes us “less safe”? I’m willing to listen. But your vitriol doesn’t add to the conversation.
Promising security to voters is an age-old campaign strategy. It works as well as promising no new taxes, help to the poor, help to the disenfranchised, better schools and a balanced budget.
You might not agree, but simply adding something like, “he tried to get terrorists to our state”, or “she saw no problem moving Gitmo detainees into Illinois”, will hurt anyone endorsing this stupid idea.
Insults? Nothing is more insulting to voters than claiming that their security concerns are foolish.
Rich - I saw it this morning on the live feed. I thought you did very well. I wish Brown and Artl would have gotten into which candidates they are backing more. In some of the races it’s hard to determine which candidate has the caucuses’ blessings.
VanMan, as I read you post, you don’t actually have a developed rationale for arguing the citizens should feel threatened.
You seem to be hoping the citizens are scared so the Republican Party can exploit their fear.
And you are willing to serve the role of fanning the flames of the fear just so you can fulfill your duty as a partisan.
How honorable!
BTW, were you also peddling the “we should fear Iraq’s WMDs” before Bush invaded Iraq? We’re you doing it because you were afraid of Iraq using WMDs against the States? Or were you a bamboozling hack then too?
It’s called respect, something you don’t seem to share.
Voters care about security. Obama has given the Republicans a gift here. It isn’t about being scared - voters are not scared - it is about feeling secure. Getting Gitmo detainees in Illinois doesn’t help the Democrats. I’m pointing that out.
As to the historical past which you are so obsessed over, I was never a WMD guy. I was the guy who said that someone ought to bury some WMDs in the Iraqi desert in order to discover them. I didn’t count on President Bush being honest, but by golly he was! He actually admitted the mistake! I would have had a huge stockpile assembled over there to be stumbled upon by Geraldo Rivera. Nah, I wasn’t a WMD guy. I thought we should have invaded Iraq over the other 21 pre-approved UN reasons to invade.
I respect voters. I respect democracy. When a political party is dumb enough to talk themselves into a corner like this Gitmo mess, I merely point it out. As a Jacksonian Democrat, I seem to be more conservative than the naive waifs calling themselves Obama supporters over this.
Listen - anyone trying to tell voters that this is a good thing is being stupid. You don’t bring in terrorists who already faced US justice in Gitmo under the auspices of bipartisan and international accords, just to satisfy a stupid political promise.
Once again, the Obama Administration is making this stuff up as it moves along. That isn’t what we were sold last year, was it?
VanMan, I don’t know how you can really respect voters when you say, “I seem to be more conservative than the naive waifs calling themselves Obama supporters over this.” Naive waifs? Really? Get off your high-horse my man - you’re embarrassing yourself, Hell, I’m embarrassed for you.
The rules of the blog prevent me from giving full-throat expression to my concern and disappointment at the Testicular Virility of some of the GOP and blogger tough guys.
Given the sacrifices of those who have given the last full measure of devotion, the best I can say to those who are unwilling to experience any risk, no matter how infestimal is: how dare you?
To Quinn and Hynes, on this issue alone, here’s to you, brothers. A good Chicago Catholic education supplies with at least couple of things to face the world.
To VMan, I’d suggest a Toby Keith disc, a shot of Jack Daniels and a night light.
To Kirk and Dillard, not on just this issue, but in general over the last few weeks, enjoy your trip to the basement of ignorance and fear. I hope you’re not counting on those folks to lift you back up. Bad mistake — they don’t like you, anyway.
Gitmo was built for the express purpose for which it is being utilized. It is in fine condition - If it works (which it does) Why fix it.
The next thing the Dems will want is to not incarcerate the Gitmo transfers until they are convicted. Wonder what bail they will deem sufficient? And then there is that pesky Miranda thing. Why do the dems want to blow all this money/funding to replicate a successful facility?
VM I was listening to WGN News Radio today, and many GOP callers/listeners are calling in siding with Durbin on this and upset that the GOP are digging in their heels.
There were also many calls from people in the area of Thompson Prison hoping this will be used more, creating the jobs that were promised to the area when this facility was built. They said the area is secure because of a nuclear power plant close by (all extra security measures in place because of this)
It seems like most callers want this, whether they are GOP, or reside close by. The callers were also saying that there were a lot of gas stations, convient stores and restaurants built in hopes of that employees as well as visitors will utilize them.
Really shouldn’t people in the general area, or at least the area near the Thompson prison have more say so?
“Why do the dems want to blow all this money/funding to replicate a successful facility?”
Because due to the actions of President Bush, the place gives the United States a reputation as a rogue nation that uses torture as a matter of policy and is similar to countries like Iran and North Korea.
(these aren’t comments directed at the individuals , just comments on what they said)
I watched the video, Paul Green needs his own show at the improv, great stuff.
Steve Brown “voters will vote democrat because of jesse white and lisa madigan”, talk about dillusional. Voters are going to vote democrat because of the guy that does their drivers licesnses or the woman who’s been a no show in fixing springfields problems. There you go. Talk about sweet kool-aid. the only secretary of state whose ever had an impact on an election was colin powell for W in 2000 helping with moderates.
More brown “Kirk’s not a great politician”-he survived two awful storms in 06, 08 in a liberal area. Your side wishes you had a naval aviator 5 term moderate congressman. He has better credentials for the national stage than durbin did in 96.
Of course left unsaid was any responsibility for the myriad problems facing the state after 8 years of total democrat rule.
Most frustrating though from the event was any lack of agenda from my side. It’s disappointing to see the media more energetic to see something come from my side than our team. I hope Mr.Artl finds his way to newmajority.com or heritage.org for some ideas, because that wasn’t exactly great stuff.
Dear Shore, please explain to me how the two most popular Democrats in the state helping their fellow Democrats down ballot is delusional. It kind of seems like Coordinated Campaign 101 to me.
As far as your cheap shot at Lisa goes, the ILAG doesn’t have authority to prosecute federal crimes in federal court nor should they interfere with ongoing federal investigations when they are explicitly told to back off. Now if you want to talk about what the AG is actually supposed to do: proposing legislative reforms like Lisa did with FOIA, filing lawsuits on behalf of the citizens of Illinois against predatory lenders, polluters, etc. she’s done pretty well and it seems that the voters in Illinois agree.
It looks like you bit off more than you can chew trying to unspin Brown’s spin and just ended up dizzy and delusional yourself.
- Pot calling kettle - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:27 pm:
Fearmongering about terrorism is just that and has led to some very poor decision-making.
To help those with a knowledge deficit understand what they should be afraid of, this web site should help.
Instead of playing on fears, our political “leaders” should work to educate the voters and then should strive to act based on data. What poses the greatest risk and how best to address it?
I don’t see voters overlooking all the awful things that have happened in this state over the last year because they like the guy that runs the drivers license office they go to every 5 years for 5 minutes or ms. madigans crusades against overzealous small businesses.
There’s a point at which rhetoric and reputation get overwhelmed by an awful record and we will see that next year. The republican party has had a pretty awful go of it in new jersey for the last few decades and despite a bad reputation it trashed the democrat candidate for governor 2 weeks ago. Why? Because eventually the sweet turns to sour if you govern as badly as democrats have in trenton and springfield no matter how many cory bookers or obamas or whatever other “political stars” you can find.
Is it just me, or does anyone else think Paul Green has had some work done? Seriously, his eyes and forehead look new to me. Maybe I’m just used to him wearing glasses and frowning a lot, but he looks really good in that video.
Shore,
In NJ, the GOP candidate for Gov. specifically and repeatedly stated that the election would be about local matters and not about President Obama.
In contrast, the GOP in Illinois in both the Senate and Gov. races is trying to do to the opposite.
- OdysseusVL -
“…Just tossing ideas out there. …” Yeah, I toseed yours out too. However, I would like to thank the Bush Administration for keeping us secure throughout their terms. It now seems somehow different … we don’t call it Terror now … Gee, I feel so much safer.
I’m ecstatic. This issue is going to make Mark Kirk look:
cowardly, because he can’t stand the fear;
unpatriotic, because the American justice system isn’t good enough for him;
big government, because Gitmo costs more,
far right wing, because most in Illinois won’t buy the fear angle;
all while creating a rift with other wings of the GOP
A Citzen,
We are getting off on a tangent here, but secure? How secure is Iraq? Al Quaeda appears to be gaining strength, in large part because Bush decided to attack the country where people did not attack us, instead of the country that kept people that did.
Sorry, but your security argument is good for nothing but a late afternoon laugh.
But we are off topic here now.
But somehow, the history texts don’t reference it being a prison where torture is used a matter of policy until George Bush was elected.
Odd how all the international organizations and news media failed to discover what you claim. But then you can claim that Bush tortured people in other countries. No matter how the facts continually disprove your point, you just somehow - know!
As a Republican, the GOP candidates, office holders and party leaders should’ve taken a breath before denigrating an idea that will put people to work. That is the overriding issue of today and of the 2010 election - putting people to work. You’ve now given the high ground to Obama, Quinn and Durbin on putting people to work!
If you really think bad guys are going to raid Thomson, what about when Gotti or Noriega were at Marion? What about the guy who tried to blow up the Fed Bldg in Springfield or the guy on trial in Peoria? What about those “security threats”?
Grow up. Take a minute to figure out what you’re supposed to be saying to the IL voters - more jobs, balanced budgets and less corruption.
The people of Thomson, those most impacted, worked hard and long to get that prison sited at that location and now they are more than willing to take those jobs and see their economy do better.
The big gambling expansion many of these same lawmakers pushed will destroy many more Illinois lives than this plan to house Gitmo prisoners here ever possibly could.
But facing up to reality instead of playing on raw emotion takes brains and maturity.
The torture comitted in Chicago by the police under the watch of one of the major democratic leaders was more severe than what was meted out to the prisoners in Guantanamo. More despicable as well. I wish those all torn up about the treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo would extend their compassion to the men tortured by members of the Chicago police force and seek justice for their fellow Chicagoans before they wory about enemy combatants.
Even GROVER NORQUIST (sorry about the shouting, it seems appropriate in this case) thinks the GOP should shut up and move the terror suspects to Illinois.
WOW - another Nazi comparison. Two in one day VM is impressive. One more and that’s a streak!
I cannot believe I have to write this, but Germany and Japan were formal allies. After declaring war on Japan, of course we were at war with Germany.
When were Iraq and al Quada working together, let alone formal allies? They did not and were not. PLEASE use analogies that work.
It almost leads us back to the enemy combatant vs POW conversation, which I didn’t hear back on.
If you don’t believe torture took place, well…I guess those investigations and photos were all made up as well.
Pluto - torture anywhere (Chicago, Gitmo, etc.) by anyone is unacceptable.
Rich, if you will forgive me for posting a link to another blog, here is a link to a letter from Bob Barr, Grover Norquist and David Keene in favor of moving the prisoners to the Illinois and encouraging people to stop scaremongering.
–Yeah - kinda like Roosevelt did after Pearl Harbor, he declares war on Germany and adopts a defeat Germany first policy.–
VMan, that’s just ignorant. Elementarily so. I don’t see how you can strap on the gasbag every day.
You need to get out of the pool. You’re out of your depth.
- CircularFiringSquad - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 5:37 pm:
Wow does this blunder really sink COmmando Kirk and all those ill informed GOP Gov candidates.
IL already has terrorists housed in federal pens here…..What are they thinking….It does help them cement there position as #1 Chapter in teh “No Nation” club……we appear to be well on our way to securing the defeat we are earning in 2010.
Good work commando & co.
Off-topic, but Hoffman’s volunteer kick-off video is referencing an unreleased poll. In it he states:
“In terms of Mark Kirk’s strength, if he’s the nominee in this race, we’re gonna have a problem as Democrats and that’s what this poll shows. A major, major problem.”
It’ll be interesting to see the details re: what they found.
I am a bit curious to know what was so rabid or gratuitous about my post to get it deleted. A little instruction would be helpful in knowing what the lines are here.
–Treating war criminals as mere domestic criminals is exactly the mindset that brought us 9/11.–
Exactly what, when and where are you talking about? I’m at a loss.
By the way, the idea of war criminals is a very recent phenomenon, WWII to be exact.
I suggest you read Churchill’s reservations about the concept — if he had his way, he would have rather placed the worst of the Nuremberg bunch up against the wall and summarily shot them, rather than associate their fate with the concept of justice.
His concerns about a very sticky wicket became evident in the Tokyo War Crime’s Tribunal, as you can read in the dissents of Justice Pal of India.
And Robert McNamara wrote extensively of his role in the terror bombing (the U.S. Air Force’s words) on non-combatants in WWII that burned most of urban Japan to the ground.
Like I’ve been saying, don’t make these guys bigger than they are. It only strokes the egos of the maniacs in the caves of the Pakistan/Afghan frontier. They haven’t earned such status.
I had something that wasn’t posted earlier, and wasn’t sure why either. That seldom happens here at CapFax and when it does there’s usually reason–so I’m not going to worry about it.
Gosh, guys, if my very argument has been completely deleted from this thread, I really wish you wouldn’t argue with it. If I am to be a non-person here for what I can only see as a perhaps, provocative, argument that goes against the grain of the conventional wisdom here, surely you can accord me the courtesy of not arguing against a point that the editors here won’t even allow the readers to see. Otherwise, readers can’t see whether I made a good point or not, because the only thing allowed are arguments against it. If I am to be a non-person, your arguing against points I am not even allowed to make is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel. Not sporting, eh?
Fear? Dems are asking to reorder entire world economy based on speculative and wrong climate data on the premise that if we don’t the world will end. GOP is suggesting that bringing a group that already killed 3,000 Americans to Illinois might be a bad idea. Which party is fear mongering?
Any one from SE Wisconsin knows that Ernie von Schledorn started out as a German prisoner of war and he did ok selling Buicks.
The Gitmo situation is not a long term. Besides giving the Cuban government much needed US $ something should be done. This solution is risky and if it fails it really is Obama’s failure. Illinois is full of rual towns housing very dangerous criminals it really is not that big of a deal for the people of these communities. Illinois is full of targets and they are not all in Chicago, our nuke plants, the Rock Island Arsnel etc housing a couple hundred really bad guys wont change a thing.
Actually I agree with VMan that this decision may be unpopular with Americans concerned about their safety. It might be a vote loser. And VMan has a point that liberals often underestimate the common sense and intelligence of American voters, and speak too disparagingly about them.
Where I disagree with VMan is that in this specific, concretized instance, he fails to recognize that, sometimes, a majority of the public _ARE_ dumb, say, if they think keeping the prisoners in Gitmo makes us safer. It does not. Evidence is persuasive to me at least that Gitmo has become a recruiting bonanza for al Qaeda overseas and helped (though not exclusively fed) more extremist fervor. Appearances count. We might “feel” safer, knowing the terrorists are Over There, and Not Here, but in which case yes, we are stupid.
Scatter them around, put them in different complexes on U.S. soil and abroad, and we will be safer in the long run.
None of this is to exclude or preclude the other reasons why the Thomson incarceration might be a bad idea. Hopefully there is no long-term economic future for a community in housing fanatical jihadists.
Interesting. Another blog is reporting that the AP is reporting that Quinn’s been “misleading Illinois”.
- Speaking at Will - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 8:33 pm:
I’m sure its too late at night for Jorge to see this, but I have to respond to
== Don’t complain, he should stop embarrassing himself and get out of the race, along with the other also-rans, like Arrington, Zadek, Thomas, etc. ==
I have to assume Jorge that your a Hughes guy, and Hughes is conservative, or at least we have to assume that he is since he has no voting record.
Pat Hughes has voted twice in his entire life. I guess for the last 22 years he has been too busy to make it to the polls. Hughes is out of touch with Illinois voters, and a democratic candidate will demolish him in the fall.
Judge Don Lowery is a Vietnam vet who VOLUNTEERED for a tour. While crawling through the Vietnam jungles on his stomach he won a bronze star.
He came home and opened his own law practice and then served 26 years on the bench as a judge. He is pro life, pro 2nd amendment, and just because he doesnt have a pile of cash doesnt mean he shouldnt be given a fair shake in the media.
I’m a Republican who will probably vote for a Republican for Governor and Senator. That said, these Republican candidates need to quit their whining and acting like we are scared to house these bad guys. I agree that Gitmo should not be closed - but guess what? The Republicans lost the Presidential Election and it sounds like a done deal. So too bad. Move on. If we can put the prison to use and hire Illinois citizens to work there DO IT!!!!! All this whining and moaning about “these are bad guys and we’re putting ourselves in jeopardy by putting them in our prison….” GIVE ME A BREAK!!! Quit being a bunch of scared sissies. Rant over.
- Will County Woman - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 9:48 pm:
Good discussions at Roosevelt University today. Thanks, Rich. Nice haircut btw.
Steve Brown sure does know for whom he works, and he makes sure that you know too.
A+
- Will County Woman - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 9:50 pm:
Oh, I forgot…
The DSCC ad is good. I give it an A. But by the time the general roles around I think Kirk will have successfully quashed the furor over his outreach to Palin.
Comments get deleted all the time here. Beyond the written rules here, which you could argue your post complied with, there is one major unwritten rule that applies to pretty much every blog I’ve ever read: do not hijack the thread.
Your college sophomore philosophy 101 term paper of last week was exactly like your post earlier today: in order to refute every wild point you made, we’d need a couple of days and hundreds of back and forth comments. Blogs can’t support that kind of discourse. Make a quick point that relates to what the original post was about then read and/or respond to others.
But for the love of God man, do not post comments that are so provocative and idiotic on so many levels. That is such a drag on the conversation that was underway before you got here. It’s common courtesy on blogs to keep it focused and on-point. Plus, this is a sophisticated audience for the most part. Some of us went to college too.
I don’t know why your comment (about how the U.S. Constitution doesn’t accommodate the global war on terror) got deleted, but you asked for some guidance and that’s the best I’ve got. It wasn’t deleted because someone disagrees with you (although I do), it was that it was bringing this conversation way too far afield.
Well, 47th, I won’t disagree with you about the post of a week or so ago hijacking the thread (though it was significantly more sophisticated than you wish to concede). But today’s comment was right on point and not hijacking anything. The question was does bringing Gitmo prisoners here present a danger to the population of Illinois and to national security or not. I argued two fundamental points and that was that. You can certainly argue I was wrong, but you have a whole line of comments here about how it is no problem and just a case of fear-mongering - and some provocative insults of conservatives. Those comments remain unmolested. My counter argument is tossed. It was actually a pretty lonely counterpoint to the general concensus here.
The only thing I can really think of that might have got it deleted was that the last line was that the same sort of people who are assuring us that there is nothing to fear here are the people who, a few weeks ago, confronted with the history of Nidal Hasan, would have been assuring us he was just practicing diversity. Certainly a pointed insult directed at liberals, but far less of a blunt object then several of the insults directed at conservatives on this thread that remain unmolested.
Call me dumb, sophomoric, whatever. That doesn’t bother me. Time and events will demonstrate whether you or I have the better grasp of the implications and consequences of policy choices we make. But when I do stay on topic - and merely make what is an unpopular argument here on that topic, it startles me to be deleted. That’s not how Rich works and I have to believe an overeager intern overeacted a tad tonight.
- Yellow Dog Democrat - Tuesday, Nov 17, 09 @ 1:12 am:
“In terms of Mark Kirk’s strength, if he’s the nominee in this race, we’re gonna have a problem as Democrats and that’s what this poll shows. A major, major problem.” - U.S Senate Candidate David Hoffman
It is unfortunate that there are politicians trying to frighten people out of a great opportunity in difficult economic times. Some o fthe critics have never even been to Carrol County? If Kirk and others bothered to leave DC or Chicagoland, they’d find a lot of people who want to work but cannot. With no outbreaks in maximum security prisons, terrorists already house in our state and around the country, I believe the naysayers are, at best, out of touch. People in Illinois need action. They do not need to hear from the national republican playbook.
- George - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 12:35 pm:
Could calling this the “biggest homeland security question to face the State of Illinois since September 11″ be anything but laughable?
Actually, yes, it could also be called 26%.
As in, the GOP vote share next fall. Keep it up, guys.
- Carl Nyberg - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 12:39 pm:
Republicans want people to be fearful.
Republicans were able to milk the fear and anxiety from the 9/11 attacks for two of their most successful election cycles in recent memory.
Republicans don’t have policy ideas that appeal to voters so they try to make voters feel scared about immigrants and al Qaeda.
Whatever. People with half-a-brain know that prisoners who are incarcerated don’t represent a threat to the local community. The communities that have prisons asked for those prisons.
As Atrios has said repeatedly, the people incarcerated in Gitmo aren’t supervillians.
If Republicans respected the citizenry they wouldn’t talk to voters like they are ignorant fools.
- shore - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 12:39 pm:
dan hynes is talking out of both sides of his mouth (like a typical career politician), neither of which seem to grasp American national security concerns. Either you are for it or against it. America’s image abroad is much more than a camp for enemy combatants in Cuba. These same people that criticize us abroad the belgians that have their own history in the congo, the chinese, the russians, certainly these arab nations are not human rights all stars.
- Vibes - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 12:40 pm:
This is a really weird issue. Bob Barr, Grover Norquist, and David Keene of the American Conservative Union are accusing Mark Kirk of “scaremongering”.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/11/conservatives-say-gitmo-detainees-would-be-fine-in-il-prison-warn-gop-of-scaremongering.php?ref=fpb
I never thought I’d see the day when Mark was proud to be a wingnut.
- Pat collins - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 12:42 pm:
Note that Proft ties his opposition to IL local concerns - overcrowding.
And how many prisons have gang activity run from within them? Can we REALLY be sure that there would be no such inside–>outside coordination?
As for Hynes, he should care more for IL and less for imaging polishing.
- Carl Nyberg - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 12:42 pm:
shore, is it your position that the United States should aspire to reduce our respect for international law and human rights to be just slightly better than the worst examples we can find from other countries?
- Team America - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 12:44 pm:
It’s ironic that the Dems are accusing the GOP of using ‘fear mongering’ when ‘fear’ is exactly what they used to push the stimulus package through, and ‘fear’ is what they are using even now to ram through a complete re-do of the health care system. I guess one team’s fear is another team’s moral justification.
- Deep South - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 12:47 pm:
The Kirk Loves Pallin vid gets my vote for campaign ad of the year…and I know we’re gonna see a lot more. Its gonna be hard to top that one!!!! As for terrorists in Illinois, don’t they know about USP at Marion. Puh-leeze.
- Carl Nyberg - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 12:52 pm:
Team America, what were the odds of bad stuff happening (unemployment rising and businesses folding) without a stimulus bill?
What are the odds that a terrorist prisoner will escape and do harm to the local community?
- Moving to Oklahoma - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 12:52 pm:
== Then there was conservative GOP US Senate candidate Patrick Hughes… ==
Would like to see Judge Don Lowery get some attention from time to time. He is a Conservative candidate for U.S. Senate who has 26 years of experience as a judge, and a bronze star winner in Vietnam.
That being said, the Mark Kirk video put out by the democrats is absolutely fantastic. Hilarious. Meanwhile back at the ranch, Proft continues to make more sense than anyone else on the issues.
- just sayin' - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 12:55 pm:
Oh for crying out loud, there is an unrepentant domestic terrorist on the state payroll and still teaching our kids at the U of I in Chicago, even as we speak.
I’m talking of course about Bill Ayers.
Last year when Obama was insanely popular, especially in Illinois, none of these GOP candidates had the guts to say a peep about that. But now that Obama’s numbers have dropped a bit, now these chicken hawks see an opportunity and they are coming out of the woodwork with the scare game.
At least with Thomson, the terrorists would be under lock and key.
- Team America - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 12:55 pm:
Carl, it’s not the people on the inside trying to get out that worries me, it’s all of their friends on the outside that would be trying to get them out and what happens in the process. Dig?
- jerry 101 - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 12:57 pm:
What are these wimps so afraid of?
A handful of guys sitting in a few prison cells?
What are they gonna do? Shank a guard? Make some prison hooch?
Jeez, what a bunch of wimps. People with such a lack of bowel control probably should not show themselves in public.
- Bill - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 1:03 pm:
What is the big deal? All they need to do is make each terrorist bunk with some Chicago gang bangers and let Allah sort them out. That would teach them what terror really means.
- Carl Nyberg - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 1:04 pm:
I amend my question.
Please explain the scenario that worries you about incarcerating people at Thomson. What probability do you assign to such a scenario?
- Responsa - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 1:07 pm:
OK, that truck backing up ad is great! However, I wouldn’t be very surprised to see that same truck tagged for a different (Democratic) candidate being backed up hard toward the left in an equally effective ad in this state, or other states. It’s a simple message in concept— but easily swings both ways. We may be seeing trucks in our dreams before this thing is over.
- The Doc - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 1:15 pm:
TA, comparing HCR and stimulus to the issue at hand is a ridiculous straw man.
The U.S. prison system already houses domestic and international terrorists. If your logic is that Thomson becomes a hot target by virtue of the fact that it would be home to a select number of terrorists, it needs to be explained why other prisons housing terrorists, including Gitmo, have not been targeted.
Does Thomson become a bigger target symbolically? Perhaps. But logistically, the lower 48 has many, many more high-impact and critical targets.
It’s fear mongering in the absence of reasonable discourse and constructive dialogue.
- cassandra - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 1:22 pm:
I don’t think there is a safety concern but on CNN last night, one of the commentators referred to “the Illinois Gitmo.” Is that how we want Illinois to be seen by the world. In our desire to help our Obama with a really messy problem, do we want to be known to the world as the state with the new Gitmo.
Maybe we should be more concerned about why Durbin and our Pat, the accidental guv, are so desperate to get this prison–in addition to helping Obama with a tough problem, of course. Maybe they are not as optimistic about economic recovery in the Midwest (or anywhere in the US) as the Democratic administration claims. And 2010 is coming up fast.
- Third Generation Chicago Native - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 1:22 pm:
The DSCC did a good job of letting the middle of the road voters know Mark Kirk is not middle of the Road.
I heard on news radio this morning that there are many complaints that visitors to Thompson jail would be Al Quaeda linked, terrorist linked etc. and that would be an unwanted element traveling and staying in the area.
**not my views, just reporting what was being said on news radio this morning.
I don’t know if that really should be the scare to the Thompson jail, or if the distance of relatives, aquaintences to detainees would make this an issue.
Hynes is also smart siding with Obama since, Obama is very popular in this state.
- Obamarama - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 1:39 pm:
===“As Governor I would not support this extreme plan and I call on the General Assembly to act swiftly and decisively to put a halt to Governor Quinn’s attempts to put terrorists in our neighborhoods.”===
Oh, Tugboat Andy, how rich. He makes it sound as though we are just going to release the detainees downtown Wheaton or something. We are sending them to prison, Andy. The only people who could claim they are being dumped into their “neighborhood” by being sent to Thompson, have been outspoken in favor of the plan due to the economic advantages.
That being said, we could just send them to 26th & California for a week.
- ahoy - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 1:39 pm:
I agree with the Republicans, we should remove all possible terrorists’ threats, real or unreal. We should also tear down the Sears Tower, the Capitol Building and all federal offices since they are possible terrorists’ targets.
- Small Town Liberal - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 1:46 pm:
I’m not trying to offend, but if GOP supporters are afraid of having terrorists imprisoned in Illinois, move to another state. It will make electing liberals much easier.
In all seriousness though, I do think this is a decision that shouldn’t be made lightly. I believe it could provide a lot of benefit with low risk, but I’m not exactly an expert on terrorists and their incarceration. If the people who are experts see more good than harm coming out of this, I’ve got no problem with it.
- ilvalleygal - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 1:50 pm:
Um, hello — Marion anybody? I know it was noted above but all this ruckus seems a little silly since IL already houses some of the federal government’s worst cases.
As far as bringing terrorists to Illinois, well, it’s too late for that if the FBI is raiding Kinsman or the case of Ali Saleh Kahlah al-Marri of Peoria.
It seems to me that political candidates should have a little more faith in this country’s criminal justice system rather than running around screaming that the sky is falling.
- TaxThePoor - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 1:59 pm:
just sayin’ - The Republicans can’t say anything about Bill Ayers terrorist past because his ComEd CEO deep pockets daddy helped him escape justice and then helped get rich off taxpayers money working for government. And his rich daddy was no Democrat either.
Why do we have a new prison sitting empty for 8 years? Shouldn’t we be firing the idiots responsible for THAT stupid waste of money? Like everyone starting with Madigan?
Apparently lost in the fear mongering and worry is the fact that this country needs a strong, definitive policy on what to do with these people. Another failure of the Republican and Democrat leaders.
- VanillaMan - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 2:14 pm:
Citizens expect their governments to keep them safe, or to make them safer. Not this. So it is understandable for liberals to run around pretending that everyone concerned about safety is too stupid to contribute to this discussion. After all, that is usually their response to any challenge - “you folks are too stupid to understand”, right?
The problems is, this is a real problem. If the Democrats want to sell a “What me, worry?” attitude - they will end up the losers. Citizens care about safety issues. The Democrats are on the wrong side, regardless of how they insult those who question the sanity of this decision.
So go ahead and keep insulting Illinoisans. But don’t be suprised when the voting results are in.
Giannoulais seems to be the only guy realizing this.
- VanillaMan - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 2:19 pm:
And tying Kirk to Palin is stupid DCCC. I’d rather have a senator who tried to hook up with his party’s former VP candidate, than a senator who had been hooked up to Rod Blagojevich for six years.
Palin-bashing is already old hat. But the Blagojevich trial will be a news around Election Day. So, which boogie-man/woman do you think Illinoisans are going to care about?
- Lee - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 2:23 pm:
Alexi’s decision will be forthcoming, if he is elected to the US Senate.
- siriusly - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 2:28 pm:
Thanks for the links Rich, Blue Room Stream posted the entire thing. Watching it now, will comment later (in a couple hours). . .
- Carl Nyberg - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 2:35 pm:
VM, did you explain why Illinois citizens should be afraid or did you merely hurl a bunch of insults?
- Jorge - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 2:36 pm:
== Would like to see Judge Don Lowery get some attention from time to time. ==
That would be great, but at the same time, he’d have to run a real campaign.
1.) Does Lowery have over $3,000 in his campaign account? No.
2.) Does Lowery have a professional staff running his campaign? No.
3.) Does Lowery have any sort of ability to get his message out? No.
Don’t complain, he should stop embarrassing himself and get out of the race, along with the other also-rans, like Arrington, Zadek, Thomas, etc.
- The Doc - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 2:41 pm:
==So it is understandable for liberals to run around pretending that everyone concerned about safety is too stupid to contribute to this discussion. After all, that is usually their response to any challenge - “you folks are too stupid to understand”, right?==
You’re way off base, VanMan, the holier-than-thou tea party rhetoric notwithstanding. There’s been no discussion - only a swift and vicious verbal assault on the decision to relocate.
You wanna argue that it makes us “less safe”? I’m willing to listen. But your vitriol doesn’t add to the conversation.
- VanillaMan - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 2:45 pm:
Promising security to voters is an age-old campaign strategy. It works as well as promising no new taxes, help to the poor, help to the disenfranchised, better schools and a balanced budget.
You might not agree, but simply adding something like, “he tried to get terrorists to our state”, or “she saw no problem moving Gitmo detainees into Illinois”, will hurt anyone endorsing this stupid idea.
Insults? Nothing is more insulting to voters than claiming that their security concerns are foolish.
- Beerman - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 2:47 pm:
Rich - I saw it this morning on the live feed. I thought you did very well. I wish Brown and Artl would have gotten into which candidates they are backing more. In some of the races it’s hard to determine which candidate has the caucuses’ blessings.
- Carl Nyberg - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 2:59 pm:
VanMan, as I read you post, you don’t actually have a developed rationale for arguing the citizens should feel threatened.
You seem to be hoping the citizens are scared so the Republican Party can exploit their fear.
And you are willing to serve the role of fanning the flames of the fear just so you can fulfill your duty as a partisan.
How honorable!
BTW, were you also peddling the “we should fear Iraq’s WMDs” before Bush invaded Iraq? We’re you doing it because you were afraid of Iraq using WMDs against the States? Or were you a bamboozling hack then too?
- VanillaMan - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 3:10 pm:
It’s called respect, something you don’t seem to share.
Voters care about security. Obama has given the Republicans a gift here. It isn’t about being scared - voters are not scared - it is about feeling secure. Getting Gitmo detainees in Illinois doesn’t help the Democrats. I’m pointing that out.
As to the historical past which you are so obsessed over, I was never a WMD guy. I was the guy who said that someone ought to bury some WMDs in the Iraqi desert in order to discover them. I didn’t count on President Bush being honest, but by golly he was! He actually admitted the mistake! I would have had a huge stockpile assembled over there to be stumbled upon by Geraldo Rivera. Nah, I wasn’t a WMD guy. I thought we should have invaded Iraq over the other 21 pre-approved UN reasons to invade.
I respect voters. I respect democracy. When a political party is dumb enough to talk themselves into a corner like this Gitmo mess, I merely point it out. As a Jacksonian Democrat, I seem to be more conservative than the naive waifs calling themselves Obama supporters over this.
Listen - anyone trying to tell voters that this is a good thing is being stupid. You don’t bring in terrorists who already faced US justice in Gitmo under the auspices of bipartisan and international accords, just to satisfy a stupid political promise.
Once again, the Obama Administration is making this stuff up as it moves along. That isn’t what we were sold last year, was it?
- Deep South - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 3:30 pm:
VanMan, I don’t know how you can really respect voters when you say, “I seem to be more conservative than the naive waifs calling themselves Obama supporters over this.” Naive waifs? Really? Get off your high-horse my man - you’re embarrassing yourself, Hell, I’m embarrassed for you.
- wordslinger - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 3:49 pm:
The rules of the blog prevent me from giving full-throat expression to my concern and disappointment at the Testicular Virility of some of the GOP and blogger tough guys.
Given the sacrifices of those who have given the last full measure of devotion, the best I can say to those who are unwilling to experience any risk, no matter how infestimal is: how dare you?
To Quinn and Hynes, on this issue alone, here’s to you, brothers. A good Chicago Catholic education supplies with at least couple of things to face the world.
To VMan, I’d suggest a Toby Keith disc, a shot of Jack Daniels and a night light.
To Kirk and Dillard, not on just this issue, but in general over the last few weeks, enjoy your trip to the basement of ignorance and fear. I hope you’re not counting on those folks to lift you back up. Bad mistake — they don’t like you, anyway.
- A Citizen - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 3:56 pm:
Gitmo was built for the express purpose for which it is being utilized. It is in fine condition - If it works (which it does) Why fix it.
The next thing the Dems will want is to not incarcerate the Gitmo transfers until they are convicted. Wonder what bail they will deem sufficient? And then there is that pesky Miranda thing. Why do the dems want to blow all this money/funding to replicate a successful facility?
- Third Generation Chicago Native - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 3:58 pm:
VM I was listening to WGN News Radio today, and many GOP callers/listeners are calling in siding with Durbin on this and upset that the GOP are digging in their heels.
There were also many calls from people in the area of Thompson Prison hoping this will be used more, creating the jobs that were promised to the area when this facility was built. They said the area is secure because of a nuclear power plant close by (all extra security measures in place because of this)
It seems like most callers want this, whether they are GOP, or reside close by. The callers were also saying that there were a lot of gas stations, convient stores and restaurants built in hopes of that employees as well as visitors will utilize them.
Really shouldn’t people in the general area, or at least the area near the Thompson prison have more say so?
- OdysseusVL - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:03 pm:
A Citizen:
“Why do the dems want to blow all this money/funding to replicate a successful facility?”
Because due to the actions of President Bush, the place gives the United States a reputation as a rogue nation that uses torture as a matter of policy and is similar to countries like Iran and North Korea.
Just tossing ideas out there.
- VanillaMan - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:05 pm:
Nah - Gitmo exists because of William McKinley. If you want to keep blaming previous presidents, just do it accurately.
- shore - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:06 pm:
(these aren’t comments directed at the individuals , just comments on what they said)
I watched the video, Paul Green needs his own show at the improv, great stuff.
Steve Brown “voters will vote democrat because of jesse white and lisa madigan”, talk about dillusional. Voters are going to vote democrat because of the guy that does their drivers licesnses or the woman who’s been a no show in fixing springfields problems. There you go. Talk about sweet kool-aid. the only secretary of state whose ever had an impact on an election was colin powell for W in 2000 helping with moderates.
More brown “Kirk’s not a great politician”-he survived two awful storms in 06, 08 in a liberal area. Your side wishes you had a naval aviator 5 term moderate congressman. He has better credentials for the national stage than durbin did in 96.
Of course left unsaid was any responsibility for the myriad problems facing the state after 8 years of total democrat rule.
Most frustrating though from the event was any lack of agenda from my side. It’s disappointing to see the media more energetic to see something come from my side than our team. I hope Mr.Artl finds his way to newmajority.com or heritage.org for some ideas, because that wasn’t exactly great stuff.
- Obamarama - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:17 pm:
Dear Shore, please explain to me how the two most popular Democrats in the state helping their fellow Democrats down ballot is delusional. It kind of seems like Coordinated Campaign 101 to me.
As far as your cheap shot at Lisa goes, the ILAG doesn’t have authority to prosecute federal crimes in federal court nor should they interfere with ongoing federal investigations when they are explicitly told to back off. Now if you want to talk about what the AG is actually supposed to do: proposing legislative reforms like Lisa did with FOIA, filing lawsuits on behalf of the citizens of Illinois against predatory lenders, polluters, etc. she’s done pretty well and it seems that the voters in Illinois agree.
It looks like you bit off more than you can chew trying to unspin Brown’s spin and just ended up dizzy and delusional yourself.
- Pot calling kettle - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:27 pm:
Fearmongering about terrorism is just that and has led to some very poor decision-making.
To help those with a knowledge deficit understand what they should be afraid of, this web site should help.
http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcaus.html
Instead of playing on fears, our political “leaders” should work to educate the voters and then should strive to act based on data. What poses the greatest risk and how best to address it?
- shore - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:29 pm:
I don’t see voters overlooking all the awful things that have happened in this state over the last year because they like the guy that runs the drivers license office they go to every 5 years for 5 minutes or ms. madigans crusades against overzealous small businesses.
There’s a point at which rhetoric and reputation get overwhelmed by an awful record and we will see that next year. The republican party has had a pretty awful go of it in new jersey for the last few decades and despite a bad reputation it trashed the democrat candidate for governor 2 weeks ago. Why? Because eventually the sweet turns to sour if you govern as badly as democrats have in trenton and springfield no matter how many cory bookers or obamas or whatever other “political stars” you can find.
- OdysseusVL - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:41 pm:
- VanillaMan - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:05 pm:
“Nah - Gitmo exists because of William McKinley. If you want to keep blaming previous presidents, just do it accurately.”
But somehow, the history texts don’t reference it being a prison where torture is used a matter of policy until George Bush was elected.
- 47th Ward - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:42 pm:
Is it just me, or does anyone else think Paul Green has had some work done? Seriously, his eyes and forehead look new to me. Maybe I’m just used to him wearing glasses and frowning a lot, but he looks really good in that video.
- OdysseusVL - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:42 pm:
Shore,
In NJ, the GOP candidate for Gov. specifically and repeatedly stated that the election would be about local matters and not about President Obama.
In contrast, the GOP in Illinois in both the Senate and Gov. races is trying to do to the opposite.
- A Citizen - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:45 pm:
- OdysseusVL -
“…Just tossing ideas out there. …” Yeah, I toseed yours out too. However, I would like to thank the Bush Administration for keeping us secure throughout their terms. It now seems somehow different … we don’t call it Terror now … Gee, I feel so much safer.
- Thomas Westgard - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:46 pm:
I’m ecstatic. This issue is going to make Mark Kirk look:
cowardly, because he can’t stand the fear;
unpatriotic, because the American justice system isn’t good enough for him;
big government, because Gitmo costs more,
far right wing, because most in Illinois won’t buy the fear angle;
all while creating a rift with other wings of the GOP
Go Kirk!
- OdysseusVL - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:53 pm:
A Citzen,
We are getting off on a tangent here, but secure? How secure is Iraq? Al Quaeda appears to be gaining strength, in large part because Bush decided to attack the country where people did not attack us, instead of the country that kept people that did.
Sorry, but your security argument is good for nothing but a late afternoon laugh.
But we are off topic here now.
- VanillaMan - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 4:59 pm:
But somehow, the history texts don’t reference it being a prison where torture is used a matter of policy until George Bush was elected.
Odd how all the international organizations and news media failed to discover what you claim. But then you can claim that Bush tortured people in other countries. No matter how the facts continually disprove your point, you just somehow - know!
Keep on dreaming!
- SangamoGOP - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 5:02 pm:
As a Republican, the GOP candidates, office holders and party leaders should’ve taken a breath before denigrating an idea that will put people to work. That is the overriding issue of today and of the 2010 election - putting people to work. You’ve now given the high ground to Obama, Quinn and Durbin on putting people to work!
If you really think bad guys are going to raid Thomson, what about when Gotti or Noriega were at Marion? What about the guy who tried to blow up the Fed Bldg in Springfield or the guy on trial in Peoria? What about those “security threats”?
Grow up. Take a minute to figure out what you’re supposed to be saying to the IL voters - more jobs, balanced budgets and less corruption.
The people of Thomson, those most impacted, worked hard and long to get that prison sited at that location and now they are more than willing to take those jobs and see their economy do better.
- think about it - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 5:02 pm:
The big gambling expansion many of these same lawmakers pushed will destroy many more Illinois lives than this plan to house Gitmo prisoners here ever possibly could.
But facing up to reality instead of playing on raw emotion takes brains and maturity.
- Plutocrat03 - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 5:06 pm:
Lets not climb onto too high a mooral pedestal.
The torture comitted in Chicago by the police under the watch of one of the major democratic leaders was more severe than what was meted out to the prisoners in Guantanamo. More despicable as well. I wish those all torn up about the treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo would extend their compassion to the men tortured by members of the Chicago police force and seek justice for their fellow Chicagoans before they wory about enemy combatants.
- Cheryl44 - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 5:12 pm:
Even GROVER NORQUIST (sorry about the shouting, it seems appropriate in this case) thinks the GOP should shut up and move the terror suspects to Illinois.
- ChiTownGuy - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 5:21 pm:
WOW - another Nazi comparison. Two in one day VM is impressive. One more and that’s a streak!
I cannot believe I have to write this, but Germany and Japan were formal allies. After declaring war on Japan, of course we were at war with Germany.
When were Iraq and al Quada working together, let alone formal allies? They did not and were not. PLEASE use analogies that work.
It almost leads us back to the enemy combatant vs POW conversation, which I didn’t hear back on.
If you don’t believe torture took place, well…I guess those investigations and photos were all made up as well.
Pluto - torture anywhere (Chicago, Gitmo, etc.) by anyone is unacceptable.
Rich, if you will forgive me for posting a link to another blog, here is a link to a letter from Bob Barr, Grover Norquist and David Keene in favor of moving the prisoners to the Illinois and encouraging people to stop scaremongering.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2009/11/a-letter-from-bob-barr-david-keene-and-grover-norquist-on-trying-911-suspects-in-us.php?page=1
- Easy - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 5:31 pm:
Why does Illinois need to be the dumping ground? What next–nuclear waste from New Jersey??
- wordslinger - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 5:33 pm:
–Yeah - kinda like Roosevelt did after Pearl Harbor, he declares war on Germany and adopts a defeat Germany first policy.–
VMan, that’s just ignorant. Elementarily so. I don’t see how you can strap on the gasbag every day.
You need to get out of the pool. You’re out of your depth.
- CircularFiringSquad - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 5:37 pm:
Wow does this blunder really sink COmmando Kirk and all those ill informed GOP Gov candidates.
IL already has terrorists housed in federal pens here…..What are they thinking….It does help them cement there position as #1 Chapter in teh “No Nation” club……we appear to be well on our way to securing the defeat we are earning in 2010.
Good work commando & co.
- 47th Ward - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 5:55 pm:
Readers’ note:
Last week Red & Green was offering us political philosophy lessons on how the Nazi Party in Germany was a left wing movement.
Feel free to disregard this and all future postings from Red & Green.
That is all.
- wordslinger - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 6:01 pm:
47, Red and Green also said that in the 30s Joe Kennedy was a leftist.
You can’t make this stuff up. What’s amazing is that someone can.
I’m guessing that Red & Green and VMan are one and the same.
- Anonymous - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 6:05 pm:
Off-topic, but Hoffman’s volunteer kick-off video is referencing an unreleased poll. In it he states:
“In terms of Mark Kirk’s strength, if he’s the nominee in this race, we’re gonna have a problem as Democrats and that’s what this poll shows. A major, major problem.”
It’ll be interesting to see the details re: what they found.
- Red & Green - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 6:22 pm:
I am a bit curious to know what was so rabid or gratuitous about my post to get it deleted. A little instruction would be helpful in knowing what the lines are here.
- wordslinger - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 6:23 pm:
–Treating war criminals as mere domestic criminals is exactly the mindset that brought us 9/11.–
Exactly what, when and where are you talking about? I’m at a loss.
By the way, the idea of war criminals is a very recent phenomenon, WWII to be exact.
I suggest you read Churchill’s reservations about the concept — if he had his way, he would have rather placed the worst of the Nuremberg bunch up against the wall and summarily shot them, rather than associate their fate with the concept of justice.
His concerns about a very sticky wicket became evident in the Tokyo War Crime’s Tribunal, as you can read in the dissents of Justice Pal of India.
And Robert McNamara wrote extensively of his role in the terror bombing (the U.S. Air Force’s words) on non-combatants in WWII that burned most of urban Japan to the ground.
Like I’ve been saying, don’t make these guys bigger than they are. It only strokes the egos of the maniacs in the caves of the Pakistan/Afghan frontier. They haven’t earned such status.
- Anonymous - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 6:25 pm:
I had something that wasn’t posted earlier, and wasn’t sure why either. That seldom happens here at CapFax and when it does there’s usually reason–so I’m not going to worry about it.
- A Citizen - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 6:27 pm:
- Red & Green -
Gett’n deleted is sorta a badge of honor - topped only by Rich’s Trademark “Bite Me”!
- Red & Green - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 6:30 pm:
Gosh, guys, if my very argument has been completely deleted from this thread, I really wish you wouldn’t argue with it. If I am to be a non-person here for what I can only see as a perhaps, provocative, argument that goes against the grain of the conventional wisdom here, surely you can accord me the courtesy of not arguing against a point that the editors here won’t even allow the readers to see. Otherwise, readers can’t see whether I made a good point or not, because the only thing allowed are arguments against it. If I am to be a non-person, your arguing against points I am not even allowed to make is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel. Not sporting, eh?
- Clyde Frazier - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 6:48 pm:
Fear? Dems are asking to reorder entire world economy based on speculative and wrong climate data on the premise that if we don’t the world will end. GOP is suggesting that bringing a group that already killed 3,000 Americans to Illinois might be a bad idea. Which party is fear mongering?
- Anon3 - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 6:55 pm:
Any one from SE Wisconsin knows that Ernie von Schledorn started out as a German prisoner of war and he did ok selling Buicks.
The Gitmo situation is not a long term. Besides giving the Cuban government much needed US $ something should be done. This solution is risky and if it fails it really is Obama’s failure. Illinois is full of rual towns housing very dangerous criminals it really is not that big of a deal for the people of these communities. Illinois is full of targets and they are not all in Chicago, our nuke plants, the Rock Island Arsnel etc housing a couple hundred really bad guys wont change a thing.
- Rich Sr - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 6:56 pm:
Heck, he even deleted me. Proud of it too! I turned out 100% CORRECT!!!!
- ZC - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 7:33 pm:
Actually I agree with VMan that this decision may be unpopular with Americans concerned about their safety. It might be a vote loser. And VMan has a point that liberals often underestimate the common sense and intelligence of American voters, and speak too disparagingly about them.
Where I disagree with VMan is that in this specific, concretized instance, he fails to recognize that, sometimes, a majority of the public _ARE_ dumb, say, if they think keeping the prisoners in Gitmo makes us safer. It does not. Evidence is persuasive to me at least that Gitmo has become a recruiting bonanza for al Qaeda overseas and helped (though not exclusively fed) more extremist fervor. Appearances count. We might “feel” safer, knowing the terrorists are Over There, and Not Here, but in which case yes, we are stupid.
Scatter them around, put them in different complexes on U.S. soil and abroad, and we will be safer in the long run.
None of this is to exclude or preclude the other reasons why the Thomson incarceration might be a bad idea. Hopefully there is no long-term economic future for a community in housing fanatical jihadists.
- Anonymous - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 8:26 pm:
Interesting. Another blog is reporting that the AP is reporting that Quinn’s been “misleading Illinois”.
- Speaking at Will - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 8:33 pm:
I’m sure its too late at night for Jorge to see this, but I have to respond to
== Don’t complain, he should stop embarrassing himself and get out of the race, along with the other also-rans, like Arrington, Zadek, Thomas, etc. ==
I have to assume Jorge that your a Hughes guy, and Hughes is conservative, or at least we have to assume that he is since he has no voting record.
Pat Hughes has voted twice in his entire life. I guess for the last 22 years he has been too busy to make it to the polls. Hughes is out of touch with Illinois voters, and a democratic candidate will demolish him in the fall.
Judge Don Lowery is a Vietnam vet who VOLUNTEERED for a tour. While crawling through the Vietnam jungles on his stomach he won a bronze star.
He came home and opened his own law practice and then served 26 years on the bench as a judge. He is pro life, pro 2nd amendment, and just because he doesnt have a pile of cash doesnt mean he shouldnt be given a fair shake in the media.
- BluegrassBoy - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 9:06 pm:
I’m a Republican who will probably vote for a Republican for Governor and Senator. That said, these Republican candidates need to quit their whining and acting like we are scared to house these bad guys. I agree that Gitmo should not be closed - but guess what? The Republicans lost the Presidential Election and it sounds like a done deal. So too bad. Move on. If we can put the prison to use and hire Illinois citizens to work there DO IT!!!!! All this whining and moaning about “these are bad guys and we’re putting ourselves in jeopardy by putting them in our prison….” GIVE ME A BREAK!!! Quit being a bunch of scared sissies. Rant over.
- Will County Woman - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 9:48 pm:
Good discussions at Roosevelt University today. Thanks, Rich. Nice haircut btw.
Steve Brown sure does know for whom he works, and he makes sure that you know too.
A+
- Will County Woman - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 9:50 pm:
Oh, I forgot…
The DSCC ad is good. I give it an A. But by the time the general roles around I think Kirk will have successfully quashed the furor over his outreach to Palin.
- 47th Ward - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 10:14 pm:
Red and Green,
Comments get deleted all the time here. Beyond the written rules here, which you could argue your post complied with, there is one major unwritten rule that applies to pretty much every blog I’ve ever read: do not hijack the thread.
Your college sophomore philosophy 101 term paper of last week was exactly like your post earlier today: in order to refute every wild point you made, we’d need a couple of days and hundreds of back and forth comments. Blogs can’t support that kind of discourse. Make a quick point that relates to what the original post was about then read and/or respond to others.
But for the love of God man, do not post comments that are so provocative and idiotic on so many levels. That is such a drag on the conversation that was underway before you got here. It’s common courtesy on blogs to keep it focused and on-point. Plus, this is a sophisticated audience for the most part. Some of us went to college too.
I don’t know why your comment (about how the U.S. Constitution doesn’t accommodate the global war on terror) got deleted, but you asked for some guidance and that’s the best I’ve got. It wasn’t deleted because someone disagrees with you (although I do), it was that it was bringing this conversation way too far afield.
- Red & Green - Monday, Nov 16, 09 @ 11:17 pm:
Well, 47th, I won’t disagree with you about the post of a week or so ago hijacking the thread (though it was significantly more sophisticated than you wish to concede). But today’s comment was right on point and not hijacking anything. The question was does bringing Gitmo prisoners here present a danger to the population of Illinois and to national security or not. I argued two fundamental points and that was that. You can certainly argue I was wrong, but you have a whole line of comments here about how it is no problem and just a case of fear-mongering - and some provocative insults of conservatives. Those comments remain unmolested. My counter argument is tossed. It was actually a pretty lonely counterpoint to the general concensus here.
The only thing I can really think of that might have got it deleted was that the last line was that the same sort of people who are assuring us that there is nothing to fear here are the people who, a few weeks ago, confronted with the history of Nidal Hasan, would have been assuring us he was just practicing diversity. Certainly a pointed insult directed at liberals, but far less of a blunt object then several of the insults directed at conservatives on this thread that remain unmolested.
Call me dumb, sophomoric, whatever. That doesn’t bother me. Time and events will demonstrate whether you or I have the better grasp of the implications and consequences of policy choices we make. But when I do stay on topic - and merely make what is an unpopular argument here on that topic, it startles me to be deleted. That’s not how Rich works and I have to believe an overeager intern overeacted a tad tonight.
- Yellow Dog Democrat - Tuesday, Nov 17, 09 @ 1:12 am:
“In terms of Mark Kirk’s strength, if he’s the nominee in this race, we’re gonna have a problem as Democrats and that’s what this poll shows. A major, major problem.” - U.S Senate Candidate David Hoffman
Hoffman’s a Democrat now?!? Since when?
- anon - Tuesday, Nov 17, 09 @ 7:14 am:
It is unfortunate that there are politicians trying to frighten people out of a great opportunity in difficult economic times. Some o fthe critics have never even been to Carrol County? If Kirk and others bothered to leave DC or Chicagoland, they’d find a lot of people who want to work but cannot. With no outbreaks in maximum security prisons, terrorists already house in our state and around the country, I believe the naysayers are, at best, out of touch. People in Illinois need action. They do not need to hear from the national republican playbook.