43 Comments - Dead Head - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 11:33 am: Yeah, and we should have got more for the Abraham Lincoln Hotel, byt you take what you can get. - Carl Nyberg - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 11:34 am: In a globalized economy, what vision do the political and business leaders have for employing U.S. citizens? While the fear-based objections to using Thomson for detainees now at Gitmo is goofy, it’s a bit pathetic that the Democratic vision for jobs is to employ more people as prison guards. How does employing people as prison guards make our economy competitive in the global market place? What does it allow us to export? - OneMan - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 11:35 am: so back to the question I asked before Rich… If we get basically replacement value for the facility do we still make the deal? - Chicago Law Student - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 11:35 am: Though I agree with your points on the sale price and Gov. Quinn’s rollout of this plan - I don’t agree with your reputation argument. The only reason Gitmo received as much critical attention in the world was because of the alleged human rights violations and our Supreme Court said you can’t hold them there indefinitely. By moving these prisoners to Thomson - they are essentially in a Federal prison (prob. won’t hear the human rights argument anymore) and the prisoners will be receiving hearings as to determine whether or not they are guilty of certain crimes. I believe in one year - the media will not be covering this story nearly as much as the media has covered the 5+ years of Gitmo (hell a major piece of both of the presidential candidates last year revolved around this issue). In the long run - I just don’t see this as being a negative on our reputation - if anything future generations will think that people like Rep. Kirk are quite idiotic. - shore - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 11:39 am: Last year when the trib endorsed obama I thought it would be a one time thing to send a message to the gop to get its act together. Now it appears the ed board really is a bastion of liberalism. The attacks on mr. kirk who knows far more about national security matters than they do, are a joke. If anything the last 8 years in this state have shown us how incompetent the leadership is and how important it is to have much time and reflection on big issues like this. They spent 3 years preparing the olympic bid and couldn’t figure out that the vote was set in stone a decade ago. What don’t they get now? I don’t also don’t get why people in chicago who are most at risk for being victims of a terrorist attack should have to have that threat increased because policymakers in western illinois couldn’t figure out how to grow jobs there beyond building prisons. Perhaps Messieurs, Quinn, manzullo, cullerton, durbin, and madigan could account for the 25 percent unemployment and why they have failed out there. - SangamoGOP - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 11:40 am: Chicago Law Student - Not sure why you think you won’t hear any human rights violations after they have been moved to Thomson. With the ACLU all over this situation, we will now begin to hear about Sec 1983 civil rights violations. I think these guys should be kept at Gitmo. The place was built for it to do the tribunals, etc., etc. However, if this administration is going to bring them to the mainland, Illinois might as well get the $$$. Quinn should’ve made a much better deal. Clearly Obama wanted to put them in IL in order to deflect any blowback. Quinn should’ve demanded a great deal more cash in the sale. - Anonymous - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 11:45 am: The main detail yet undisclosed. What is the price of the sale? I am not opposed or fearful of any terrorists but Illinois ought to reap a premium pay off for solving this condundrum for the feds. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 11:49 am: San Francisco wasn’t defined by Alcatraz. I don’t think the state takes a hit because of Thomson. - Chicago Law Student - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 11:49 am: SangamoGOP - The ACLU is tremendously involved in all kinds of litigation that gets one day media hits - I am referring to the long drawn out types of hits that was consistently seen since the opening of Gitmo. An issue does not become a key talking point in every presidential candidate’s stump speech for nothing - the world viewed Gitmo in a very negative light. Thomson is completely different - you will not see the media firestorm here as you did about Gitmo. The problem that I see with Gov. Quinn on this deal is that the Obama Administration came to him and offered him the idea - and he immediately accepted. I don’t think the Gov. is much of a negotiator - he should have gotten 200 million for that prison - and probably could have. - cassandra - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 11:50 am: In addition to a good price for the prison, I think we-that is, state coffers–should get a large sum per alleged terrorist. How much are the foreign countries who took some of the Guantanamo detainees getting per? I think Yemen was asking for several million per. Illinois should get at least as much. - cermak_rd - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 11:52 am: As the adopted home city of the President, and a major metropolitan city and an important commerce, transportation, and communications hub, Chicago was already a terrorist target. I’m not sure having the prison here really makes it that much higher of a target. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 11:54 am: cermak_rd, that’s an excellent point. - VanillaMan - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 11:59 am: We are already hearing about human rights violations at Thomson, and they’re not even there, yet. It is going to take as much money we spent in Gitmo to create Gitmo in Illinois. The reason is that the world will not stop criticizing the US, and there are too many lawyers itching to ensure that every terrorist can get released if at all possible, under any situation, under the law. This means extra expensive precautions throughout the facility. This is going to cost us big. What is unbelievable is what an incredible waste of our money this is after spending everything investing in Gitmo. The Gitmo of 2005, is not the Gitmo of 2009. By the time this bipartisan agreement was backstabbed by partisan politicians, we already had addressed nearly every complaint or issue thrown at us from all four corners of the Earth. The issue was settled, and even endorsed by then-Senator Obama in 2007. You can thank partisanship nonsense for the next several hundreds of millions of dollars that will be spent on this non-problem. International embarrassment? To critics, perhaps - years ago. Not now. Every third party international group has had representatives in Gitmo, along with press and media. There is no “there” there, anymore. Thomson explodes the issue all over again. We will see similar complaints, similar criticisms, and the only people on Earth who believe taking these terrorists into the US will resolve some kind of torture issue, are the liberals who are deluded enough into thinking ths will solve the problems we face. Ask the folks whose relatives are being held there, and they will tell you that having them held in the US is even more dire than having them held in Gitmo. Problem not solved. This is a NIMBY issue with emotional ties that hang from our basic concerns over safety. That isn’t going to go away with logical or legal arguments. Was Yucca Mountain approved after thirty years of reports demonstrating the safety of depositing nuclear waste there? No. It didn’t matter. What mattered is that folks don’t want nuclear waste around them, regardless of what reports say. It is an emotional issue that is still not resolved. Was it needed? Yeah! We have rusting barrels of nuclear waste hidden away and flowing into our environment. Did the folks fighting Yucca Mountain take a patriotic, “good for the US” stand? No. It didn’t matter. Same here. You ask Illinoisans if they want Gitmo terrorists in Cuba or Thomson, and they will tell you Cuba. It doesn’t matter the cost. It doesn’t matter the report. This thing is political poison voluntarily being swallowed by some of the most tone-deaf egotistical politicians we’ve seen in a long time. And after considering what we’ve gone through with Blagojevich and Burris - that’s saying a lot, isn’t it? - Big Policy Nerd - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 12:02 pm: Ryan’s comments at the Springfield forum on Monday night caused me to lose a lot of respect for him. We can disagree about sending the prisoners to Thomson, but when you start talking about “Chicago Skyscrapers Getting Blown Up” that is fear mongering at its worst and crossing the line. If you work downtown, or are a downtown developer, do you really want a guy who might be governor going on the local news talking about Chicago buildings getting blown up? Further, when Ryan talks about how Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is being transferred to Thomson, it is just further speculative nonsense. That decision hasn’t even been made yet. And if it has, how would Ryan know? Does he have access to classified information? I doubt he does. Someone should ask him how he knows Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is on his way to Thomson and how he got that information. - VanillaMan - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 12:12 pm: Calling opponents fearmongers, isn’t going to convince voters to support this. There needs to be a better argument supporting this move than name calling. Name calling is what debaters do when they can’t come up with a winning argument to support their actions. Quinn, Obama and Durbin didn’t give us enough time to create a counter to what will be an emotional and politically unpopular decision. Congress has to approve the money to even start this transfer, and there are national players itching to not give Obama the money until this entire thing is slowed down enough to kill it. Then there will be the spectacle and charade of the show trials in NYC. However that plays out will impact moving more terrorists into Thomson. Then there is the very real Congressional changes favoring the GOP within the year. Considering the political baggage this mess has, don’t expect many Democrats to fight for it during the election year. - Chicago Law Student - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 12:15 pm: VM - First, it won’t cost nearly as much money to create a facility at Thomson because of the inherent structure will be transferred from Gitmo. The problem with the Gitmo at first was the fact that there was no structure in place and that led to abuses. We are spending a lot of money already at Gitmo - I would need you to prove up that “higher cost” number to believe that argument. Second, your Yucca Mountain argument is not logically related to this argument. The science was not all on the side of those pro-Yucca - there were aquifers that were potentially at risk that supplied water to both LA and Vegas - the area was over a fault line for pete’s sake. So to say that the science was conclusive is incorrect. Secondly, these terrorists are not allowed to have their “buddies” come and visit - it is quite restricted who can come and visit. People will understand this when they will live their lives in Rock Island, Mercer, and Carroll Counties just as they did before these alleged terrorists came - there won’t be too many “Muslims” just walking around everywhere - plotting attacks. Therefore, the emotion will die down. Plus if you have ever been to esp. Carroll or Mercer counties - I doubt too many of ‘em Muslims would be living comfortably there… - Chicago Law Student - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 12:20 pm: ==Congress has to approve the money to even start this transfer, and there are national players itching to not give Obama the money until this entire thing is slowed down enough to kill it.== VM - Back this up please. Also, what so Rep. Boener has the power in the House to stop any of this. Come on - Congress will get this money passed quite easily - just as they did with the defense approps. bill and the recently passed supp. spending bill. I just don’t see this being the issue you believe it to be… - PeoriaBob - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 12:39 pm: “And the terrorists won’t be living in a neighborhood, they’ll be imprisoned in the most secure prison in the nation, perhaps even the world. ” Since Gitmo is located at a US Naval base in Cuba, it would seem more secure than Thomson. - Brennan - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 1:09 pm: Too bad Governor Quinn wasn’t in Fairview Heights last night. He could have tweaked Henry Hill’s story of “F123 you. Pay me.” ==the world viewed Gitmo in a very negative light.== And the world was pathetically wrong. You’re not going to hang your hat on that poll are you? ==Congress will get this money passed quite easily== What happens when you transfer an enemy combatant onto US soil? If I recall correctly, the Federal Courts already said the Legislative Branch and the Executive branch need to answer that ramifications if that were to occur. - How Ironic - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 1:12 pm: I’m just not sure how the GOP managed to mistake “The X-Men” movie for the one they were supposed to watch on the Gitmo Detainees. These guys can’t fly, melt steel bars with their eyes, or control the guards with their mental telepathy powers. And it’s not as though before they are put in their cells they will be paraded around town in a sort of “Terrorist Meet-N-Greet”, then allowed to roam free for a bit. This is crazy talk from the GOP, and it’s only showcasing how out of touch with reality they are. I say bring them here. More money for the state, and good jobs for the folks that live around the prison. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 1:20 pm: PalosParkBob, I was gonna respond to some of your points until I read… ===Sadly, many liberal Americans would actually applaud such an act of terrorism. It would show American weakness and impotence and certainly encourage our enemies abroad.=== So, I just decided to delete you. If you ever post a ridiculous, stupid, inane comment like that here again, you will be banned for life. Period. - Chicago Law Student - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 1:24 pm: Rich - I thought that PaloParkBob was going to end his post with “then Jack Bauer saved the day”… - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 1:28 pm: Actually, that was Aaron Schock’s line… http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/gop-rep-schock-waterboarding-or-alternative-torture-technique-shouldnt-be-ruled-out.php?ref=fpblg lol - zatoichi - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 1:30 pm: PPB, I think I saw that movie. Arnold, Chuck, Steven, Stallone, and Bruce all had parts. Mythbusters showed how the explosions were done. - MarkMac74 - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 1:31 pm: Ryan is talking about Bin Laden running free in northwestern Illinois. Quinn is talking about using an existing facility to house federal prisoners, 100 or so of whom will be transfers from Guantanamo Bay. I’m not going to attempt to argue about the political, moral or military issues surrounding GB. The impact on us here in Illinois is what concerns me. Am I worried that the terrorists will a) break out of a super max security prison (which has never been done before, btw) Uh…no. Am I worried that the presence of potential terrorists will cause the folks of NW Illinois to spontaneously rise up and attack local water towers with pitchforks and napalm? Uh…no. Am I worried that the unemployment rate in that part of the state is really high and that there are no opportunities for people there who have no jobs? Yes. Quinn is focusing on the real problems here in Illinois. Ryan is creating false ones because he had no answers for the ones that really exist. - Mary, Sterling - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 1:35 pm: HI: Good jobs for people in the area? Maybe a few, but the standards for fed guards are quite a bit more stringent than for state guards. Thomson/Carroll Co doesn’t have a very high population of college-degreed folk who are under 37, can pay to go to GA for a few months of training, then come up here, work for the feds at quite a bit LESS money that the state guard gigs pay(and the state has MUCH lower standards). Most folk here would rather have had Pontiac closed, those prisoners moved here, and the locals got the jobs. Oh well. - Pelon - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 1:50 pm: I don’t have a problem with holding terrorists in Illinois, but, unless there is a surprise announcement to come, the governor didn’t get nearly enough money. This is especially true since we have some outdated prisons that need to be closed. I see a short-term budget fix that will end up costing us more in the long run as is the case for prett much all of Quinn’s budget ideas. I wish he would spend more time thinking of Illinois’ long-term future and less time trying to prevent a major fiscal collapse before the election. He’s been a huge disappointment to me. - Plutocrat03 - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 1:53 pm: Too much speculation . This is not. Monarchy nor an emergency. Bollions of dollars are spent by the Feds annually using existing purchasing processes. Have the Feds set up RFP and see who responds. This will force a comPlete disclosure of what is required from thE nost site , the public can have their say. This is the only way to get a fair deal out of this process - dupage dan - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 2:02 pm: Another issue that I haven’t seen yet in this thread/debate is the concern over prisoners using their attorneys to smuggle out communications. It may be a small issue but looms large when you think about sympathetic attorneys having easier access to the prisoners and the opportunity to get information out to followers in this country and elsewhere. I remind readers of attorney Lynne Stewart who smuggled messages by convicted terrorist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman out of prison and delivered same to his followers in Egypt. She most recently has begun to serve her term in federal prison for that and related offenses. It seems likely that some of the attorneys who will represent the prisoners will have ulterior motives for doing so. They will have more access to the prisoners in Illinois than in Gitmo. So, while family/friends may not have easy access to the prisoners, their attorneys will. Does this mean increased liklihood of terrorist acts in the heartland? Probably not. It does mean more likely incidents of accusations of mistreatment as well as pre-trial exhortations by the defense teams. Military tribunals as Gitmo were long planned and prepared for. Hundreds of millions of our tax dollars have been spent creating and upgrading the facilitites at Gitmo to make them more palatable to critics (including Obama, who approved) only now to have to spend more federal tax dollars which will mean more wasted of scarce resources. This is political maneuvering - all at titanic taxpayer expense. - The Doc - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 2:15 pm: Dupage Dan, does the likelihood of a repeat of Stewart’s actions constitute a viable threat against the IL prison in particular or the community in general? And would it be more or less likely to occur within the confines of Thomson or Gitmo? Or any other U.S. prison that houses terrorists? It’s a specious argument based on nothing more than your conjecture. - Laborguy - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 2:26 pm: Rich, Rich, Rich, What are we going to do with you? Make money on doing our duty? You are kidding, aren’t you? I think the Blago mentality has now seeped into your political analysis. Shaking down the President of United States because he is “desperate to find a state to take these prisoners” as you put it, is not only morally repugnant but quite illegal. If you don’t believe me ask a lawyer familiar with this area of the law. Rich, it is your kind of thinking that gives Illinois a bad reputation not anything the Governor has proposed. - VanillaMan - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 2:32 pm: VM - Back this up please There ya go! Closing Gitmo doesn’t close the debate - it just transfers it right into our backyard. The critics will still be critics, and the complainers will still be complainers. It will get worse than it already is because a majority of Americans don’t want them here. Period. The Gitmo complainers somehow keep forgetting that they are not the only folks with axes to grind regarding this issue. Public opinion is not monolithic in support of Gitmo. Moving the terrorists creates new opposition and the folks that will be complaining about Thomson will be those who feel a need to answer to the Gitmo critics as well as those who are simply responding to an issue that wasn’t raised until the Gitmo complainers turned this bipartisan solution into political fodder. Gitmo critics cannot have it both ways, and their views on this are not the only ones with valid points to make. They started this in order to win the 2008 Democratic nomination for Obama, so they need to deal with the chaos their partisan gamesmanship has generated. Making them happy isn’t going to solve this problem. Even though they think it is all about them - it isn’t anymore. Obama needs to understand that you leave ugly junk yard dogs sleeping where they are. Gitmo and Thomson is one monstrously ugly junk yard dog. - VanillaMan - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 2:43 pm: Re: Yucca Mountain - So to say that the science was conclusive is incorrect. I didn’t say that. I said that regardless of the reports indicating that Yucca Mountain was safe enough for nuclear waste, the NIMBY issue overrode them. NIMBY, coupled with other scientific evidence, halted the project. NIMBY stopped Yucca. It will create a backlash for those trying to put terrorists in Illinois too. The the Pro-Thomson folks may have the facts, but they don’t have the gut feeling or emotions on their side. They failed to do this in a transparent manner. They failed to have an open debate. These kinds of backroom deals end up failing in today’s Internet-empowered citizenry. Thomson is political poison beins served up by folks who believe making themselves happy on this issue, will make everyone happy. They are fools. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 2:56 pm: VMan at 2:43: “They are fools.” VMan at 12:12: “Name calling is what debaters do when they can’t come up with a winning argument to support their actions.” - VanillaMan - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 3:01 pm: I should have written that their belief is foolish. Thank you so much for assisting me in making that clarification, Mr. Wordslinger. - steve schnorf - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 3:03 pm: Do I dare say I think the opportunity to sell this prison is “F_____g golden”? - Captain Flume - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 3:06 pm: There was a POW camp in the middle of the state during WWII. If we are in the midst of a war on terror, the “detainees” are at least de facto POWs. The state survived WWII with enemy combatants held within its borders, and I believe it will survive this war as well with these people at Thomson. - Anonymous - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 3:21 pm: === We have budget problems, the president is desperate to find a state to take these terrorists, so let’s make a deal. === Since you raised the point, I’ll just say that for me, the debate re: “doing the right thing” begins there–the closure of Guantanamo and all the related issues it creates. Not with Thomson. And in my mind, if the closure of Guantanamo is actually a done deal, then I’d imagine “doing the right thing” within THAT context would be to develop a plan that covers ALL of the critical issues that need to be addressed in prep for execution–which would be discussed as part of the “sale” to a State that’s considering the transfer. If people in the State respond by raising valid questions and issues that haven’t been addresed in the plan, it would seem that “doing the right thing” in THAT context would be to rework the plan to address those questions/issues. If you can’t, THEN “doing the right thing” would seem to be asking yourself “why can’t we”? If that last point leads you back to the first one, then it looks as if the process might need to start all over again. In other words, perhaps “moving” Guantanamo is much more of a complex problem than it originally seemed. However, “doing the right thing” would STILL seem to be going ahead with it ONLY after ALL of the solutions required to support the move are defined and implemented or planned for implementation. And alot of people seem to be of the opinion that such a “plan” has not yet been developed, and considering the risk involved, don’t feel comfortable with it. - Anonymous - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 3:31 pm: Was my last post “emotional”? - dupage dan - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 4:25 pm: The Doc, I was merely bringing up another facet of this issue that I had not yet read. I was not making the arguement that this would be an issue that directly threatens Illinois, in particular. I think common sense should be employed - there are people who do not share the general concern about those who wish to destroy us. Having these prisoners at Thomson will allow for greater unfettered access by many, including sympathetic attorneys, including people like Lynne Stewart. I am concerned that this situation is not being addressed in a careful manner - it is being make light of. Which brings me to a response to another post. Captain Flume, Comparing WWll german prisoners to modern Islamic terrorists is foolish. The type of warfare being utilized by the current enemies is completely different that that employed by the Nazis. To think otherwise is to court disaster. The type of assymetrical warfare tactics employed currently should be instructive. Instead, we see people ignore reality until the disaster recurs. At least we learned a bit from the Pearl Harbor attacks and acted accordingly. We may have become a bit paranoid but then, people are really out to destroy us. That attitude has apparently disappeared here 8 years after civilian planes were used as missiles. Our complacency could result in another successful attack. I don’t think we need to run around screaming about the danger but a little common sense and some thoughtful debate would go a long way. That is not happening here. It can explain why some are so vocal - even basic common sense has vanished. - Levi voted for Judy - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 5:10 pm: The numbers I read per the President’s Council of Economic Advisors is by Year 3, the Thomson operation will generate between 3,170 to 3,870 jobs (of which 1,720 to 1,920 should be held by local residents) with total payroll between $233 - $289 million. The overal economic impact by Year 4 will be between $900 million and $1.1 million. Per the U.S. Bureau of Prisons, there are currently 216 international terrorists and 136 domestic terrorists being held in U.S. prisons right now (and 35 of them are in Illinois). This harumphing is a little sickening. - Bad Idea - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 5:31 pm: I find it humorous that the people that are for the feds opening thomson routinely anounce over 3000 jobs would be created. Many of those jobs would be filled by military personnel. The prison in Dixon IL is one of the state’s largest, most diverse prisons in Il, with a daily population of over 2000, and it barely employs 500. - Bad Idea - Wednesday, Dec 16, 09 @ 5:42 pm: Funny that a few years after it was built, and Blago had no intention of ever opening and staffing it, DOC and some state officials PRACTICALLY BEGGED the feds to take over the prison. They didn’t want it because of the logistics, among other things. It’s not near any Federal court houses, and the medical facilities nearby were supposedly not adequate. I also seem to recall the Feds were not impressed when one of the prison buildings’ roof collapsed. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.