37 Comments - OneMan - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 11:12 am: We are going to be down in Springfield for Gifted Education Day on Wed… Looks like we picked a heck of a day for a visit. - wordslinger - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 11:16 am: –Far be it from me to suggest that Tribune Co. might be wanting to give a PR boost to a company that has billed it almost $25 million, but what about that “appearance of impropriety” that newspaper editorialists are always writing about?– LOL. You mean like a free ad? I wonder what the cash-strapped Tribune Co. payment cycle is for its vendors. Maybe they’re doing some of their business with Sidley in trade. - Steve - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 11:16 am: This is the first I’ve heard about anyone claiming pensions could be cut for current employees. I thought the Illinois state constitution and federal contract law where pretty clear on the subject. Anyway, I guess we will be hearing more of this. It’s getting kind of expensive to pay some people who’ve retired in style at age 50. - shore - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 11:22 am: For what it’s worth the suntimes did a great story this morning on teacher salaries which pretty much showed how stupid the education funding arguments are that have been made by teachers unions. There are a lot of districts that have very well paid teachers that are horrible underachievers. - VanillaMan - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 11:32 am: What would be cheaper, court costs regarding withholding $500,000 a month from the State and getting the $13,000,000 owed, or paying interest on $13,000,000? Desperate times require innovative solutions to keep kids educated, right? - wordslinger - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 11:35 am: Shore, those “underachieving” districts you’re referring to near O’Hare have a lot of commercial property that allow them to keep residential property tax rates low while still raising a relatively large local contribution. If anything, they illustrate the wackiness of the overdependence on property taxes in the state funding formula. - Redbright - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 11:39 am: My Fortune-50 corporate employer had no problem changing the pension plan for everyone mid-stream. Why should public employment be any different. And the Indian Prairie employees may want to object. That’s their personal tax obligation that is not being paid - not the school district’s. - Living in Oklahoma - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 11:47 am: I can see the Indian Prairie School boards point, however that leads to chaos, which I guess I could argue we already have in Illinois. Where is this all going to end? - just sayin' - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 11:48 am: Not good when the tax eaters can turn out many times more than all the tea parties in Illinois combined. - VanillaMan - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 11:49 am: Why should public employment be any different. Because you are a citizen, and this is a democracy. You have rights that have been enhanced over the past century to prevent politics from determining your civil rights as an American. - OneMan - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 11:50 am: wordslinger…. Lots of them are no where near O’Hare check the SD’s in Dolton, South Holland, etc… - Truth Seeker - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 11:57 am: There is a good article on California’s problems with public pensions. Just google “The Beholden State” Is Illinois heading down a similar path? - VanillaMan - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 12:04 pm: Where is this all going to end? You have been spoiled! We’ve been rich enough to paper over every governmental failure for generations, then had enough credit to borrow enough to paper over every governmental failure, so you may not know this, but what you are seeing is what you get when governmental systems fail to innovate, reform and incorporate modernity. Our economic boom years since 1980 have done little to reform our governments since they have become fat and lazy thanks to the economic boom. Now that the Great Recession has arrived, every problem is visible in a system made too fat and lazy. Governments are broken, just as any system would be broken that didn’t change with the times. So, when will it all end? It won’t! Unless you want to be taxed enough to cover up all the uglies out there wafting in the public arena, it won’t end, and if you take that higher taxes route, still won’t be fixed because there would no longer be any incentives to fix them. - Robert - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 12:06 pm: I love what the Indian Prairie School district is doing - regarding the separate account issue, they could get around that by including a letter “please transfer $500,000 of the $13,000,000 you owe us to the accounts of our employees” Since the state makes the rules, I’m sure the Indian Public School District’s actions won’t hold up in court, but the state does want to avoid being embarrassed, so it wouldn’t surprise me that the state catches up a bit with Indian Prairie, while falling further behind with other creditors. If I remember right, Southern Illinois University complained loudly and got some money. - Secret Square - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 12:07 pm: “Not good when the tax eaters can turn out many times more than all the tea parties in Illinois combined.” Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that tea partiers have to pay their own way and ask for time off of work, assuming they can even GET time off? Also, I suspect that many of the people who are taking care of their disabled relatives at home and successfully fought off SEIU’s attempt to force them to unionize aren’t exactly free to drop everything and attend a rally at the Capitol on short notice. - Yellow Dog Democrat - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 12:09 pm: Yes, the Tribune should disclose that Sidley-Austin is their attorney. They should also disclose the incestuous relationship between the Tribune, Sidley Austin and the Civic Committee of the Commercial Club of Chicago, which first floated the legal opinion. The Civic Committee’s members include Thomas Cole, Chairman of the Exec Committee at Sidley Austin, and John Madigan, former chair and CEO of the Tribune Company. - Retired Myself - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 12:17 pm: They said entitled to the pension that was in place when the employee was hired, so would you say that for example that if a State Police officer was hired when his/her pension was 75%, and then increased to 80% about 10 years ago, can the state then reduce their pension back to 75% , even if they paid 3% more to get the enhanced pension. - Montrose - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 12:19 pm: *Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that tea partiers have to pay their own way and ask for time off of work, assuming they can even GET time off?* It is fine to have a difference in opinion about whether or not the state should raise taxes, but: a) Don’t pull out your stereotypes about who is is attending the rally on Wednesday and what their life entails. b) Don’t pretend there are not folks with pretty deep pockets helping fund the tea party stuff. - wordslinger - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 12:24 pm: –Why should public employment be any different. Because you are a citizen, and this is a democracy. You have rights that have been enhanced over the past century to prevent politics from determining your civil rights as an American.– I think he means your ramenstan has been retrograded by your innocusloop. In other words, cut everywhere, except my pension. - Ghost - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 12:28 pm: Didn’t the tribune argue for paying bonuses while its in bankruptcy to keep employees? these would be payments at the expense of its other debtors… but it opposes keeping current benefits so the state can kepits people? - Pot calling kettle - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 12:45 pm: Perhaps those in the system could sue the State for not making its payment. Every employee in the systems makes their payments, the state does not. Perhaps the those in the systems could decide it’s time to rejoin the Social Security system. I wonder how the State would avoid that payment. - Pat Robertson - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 12:48 pm: ==What would be cheaper, court costs regarding withholding $500,000 a month from the State and getting the $13,000,000 owed, or paying interest on $13,000,000? Desperate times require innovative solutions to keep kids educated, right? == Since the state can also come after the school employee who is responsible for paying the withholding personally if the withholding isn’t paid, this particular solution might cost someone a little more than they bargained for. - excessively rabid - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 1:09 pm: Why should public employment be any different. It isn’t. In a unionized environment, the employer has to honor contractual benefits. The only difference is that in the private sector, the employer can go bankrupt and dump the pension plan, e.g., AA and United. The state of Illinois 1. can’t file bankruptcy and B. doesn’t have a good reason to, because they have the ability to raise taxes - they just don’t want to because they might not get re-elected. - Easily Entertained - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 1:44 pm: Public employment is different than private. A person don’t lose his constitutional rights when he becomes a government employee. The State can’t take any person’s property without due process, even when that person is employed by the State. - Sub - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 1:53 pm: Could another factor in the Sidley & Austin/ Tribune opinion be that Eden Martin is an attorney with Sidley and the President of the Civic Committee? - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 1:55 pm: Sub, good point. I think this may deserve an entirely separate post. - Obamas' Puppy - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 1:56 pm: Redbright-My Fortune-50 corporate employer had no problem changing the pension plan…- So if I am to follow this logic, since my house was robbed it is ok for your house to be robbed too. Wouldnt it be nice if neither of our houses were robbed? Shouldn’t it be illegal for both houses to be robbed? - OneMan - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 2:26 pm: Yes it would be nice if it was illegal for anyone to change anyone’s benefit plan. But we live in the US, not Europe. - lincolnlover - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 4:05 pm: The state constitution is very clear in spelling out the fact that when an individual enters into employment with the state, they have entered into an individual contractual agreement with the state, and, as such, the terms cannot be changed as long as they remain employed. If you are wondering, it is in Article XIII, Section 5. “Membership in any pension or retirement system of the State, any unit of government or school district, or any agency or instrumentality thereof, shall be an enforceable contractual relationship, the benfits of which shall not be diminished or impaired.” Which part of YOU CAN’T CHANGE IT FOR EXISTING EMPLOYEES don’t you understand? - PalosParkBob - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 4:17 pm: There’s some interesting stuff on the IEA (SOS-Save Our Salaries!) site regarding IPACE reimbursing school districts for substitute teachers. When teachers abandon their kids to do political work to raise taxes to inflate their salaries and benefits, who pays for THEIR pay? They’re not sick, so claiming to be then going to a political demonstration could be grounds for termination or disclipline. Paying a teacher or staff member for doing political campaign work in Springfield would seem to be as illegal as a school employee doing political referendum campaign work on the taxpayer’s time. Paying for a campaigning teacher’s substitute would seem to be defacto evidence that they were doing political work while being paid by the district. Has anyone tested this apparent abuse? I’m going to bring it up at my school board meeting tonight. - fed up in chicago - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 4:25 pm: The contract cut is strictly voluntary. The mayor is relying on companies that do business with the city to match the pay cut city employees are enduring by taking an unprecedented number of furlough days. And what happens to companies that refuse to reduce their prices? Will they be kicked off the City Hall gravy train? “No. You’re not gonna threaten them,” Daley said. “We’re trying to keep government going. … We don’t have a well with money sitting here. … We’re trying to keep contracts going and everything else and them getting paid. That’s what you’re trying to do.” Although $13 million is a drop in the bucket of the city’s $6.1 billion budget, Daley said every dollar helps to restore public confidence in government so shaken, the Tea Party movement is rightfully gaining steam. “No one else is doing anything like this. … Not many mayors are taking 29 days off. My cabinet and deputies are taking 24 days. … That’s a lot of time off,” Daley said. “There isn’t one state employee or federal employee taking any time off. You wonder, why not? Don’t they realize that this is a national recession? Don’t they realize that people are suffering? There’s where the disgruntled attitude is — that they don’t get it. … They’re living in the Washington or Springfield bubble.” - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 4:32 pm: PalosParkBob, your post shows major ignorance of state laws and union contracts. You also jump to so many conclusions that you make a pogo-stick look like a hardwood floor. - lincolnlover - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 4:39 pm: You go, Rich! The story plainly says that the IEA will be paying for teacher’s substitutes while they are at the rally. Most of them are probably taking personal time to attend. - OneMan - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 4:57 pm: == The story plainly says that the IEA will be paying for teacher’s substitutes while they are at the rally. == Bet you someone is going to FOIA that at a bunch of school districts. However I am sure the IEA will be quicker to pay than the state… - Marty - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 5:30 pm: Redbright- because private sector plans are governed by ERISA and public plans are governed by state and local statute and ordinance. People keep making shallow and facile assumptions that somehow the private sector practice is in soem moral sense “right” and public sector “wrong. It ain’t that simple. Moral judgments aside, the private sector has developed as it has largely because of teh legal environment created by ERISA, PBGC and the IRS, not some abstract “good” or even “smart business.” You have to understand the federal involvement in private sector plans (and lack thereof in public sector) before you start slinging opinions around. This stuff is complicated. I am NOT defending public sector practice, just pointing out what is going on underneath the sound bites. - steve schnorf - Monday, Apr 19, 10 @ 6:34 pm: Well, if we’re looking for an answer to the Trib’s question in about 10 years, starting now might be a good idea. However, if we are looking for neat-term ideas, their’s is incredibly stupid; years of Labor Relations Boards, Civil Service, state and federal constitutional issues in front of the Courts while nothing happens awaiting the answers. - HLDY - Wednesday, Apr 21, 10 @ 1:27 am: So what would make the state any different than say Bernie Madoff when thousands of employees find themselves looking at retirement without the funds they thought they had coming because the state decided the money it had promised them was better spent elsewhere (whoops our bills are bigger than we expected they’d be)? What’s the effective difference between keeping money in taxpayers’ pockets (state not raising taxes) or Madoff’s keeping it in his own pockets(whoops I maxed out my AMEX buying expensive real estate and toys)? At least the state is giving fair warning? Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.