91 Comments - anon - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 9:54 am: Before answering the question, let me say that the real winner here is Ira Silverstein. A radical group put the ball on the tee for him, and he is hitting it out of teh park. What a great and very public fight for the Senator to be in. As for the question, the supporters of conceal carry should denounce it right away. This is the kind of wing nut distraction that could derail their efforts to pass rather controversial legislation. Opponents of the bill need to ensure that every Illinoisan hears this guys comparison to the Jews and the Holocoust. His actions could give new life to conceal carry opponents. - Cincinnatus - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 9:55 am: Feel free to denounce stupidity where ever it resides. - Bill - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 9:58 am: They should denouince it but they won’t because they are scared. Their bill will go down in flames and there is nothing Todd can do about it at this point. - Leroy - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 10:05 am: I want to live in a world where the slightest utterance of stupidity must be immediately and forcefully denounced by our leaders. I don’t care if it is someone freak living in a desert in Utah, some commune dweller on a soybean farm in California, some half-baked urban radical-moocher…if the stupidity is being amplified by the internet, I need to be quickly reassured by our elected officials that these utterances are wrong. Only good can come from these expectations. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 10:08 am: To the person who posted that long comment without answering the question: Stick to the question, please, or you’ll be deleted again. - Small Town Liberal - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 10:15 am: Denounce it, show everyone that most of the supporters of concealed carry aren’t as insane as Boch. He is exactly the type of fanatic that gives responsible gun owners a bad image. Also, as an uncle of a very well behaved and non-whiney little girl, I think Boch should change his statement to “The mantra is supposed to be ‘never forget’ and ‘never again,’ not ’stick your head in the sand and whine like an upset gun rights fanatic…” - Cheryl44 - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 10:30 am: Thank you, STL. I really hate it when men can’t think of any worse insult than to call another man ‘little girl’ or by some slang term for a woman’s naughty bits. I just assume men who use that kind of language hate women. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 10:33 am: Let’s stick to the question, please. - Been There - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 10:37 am: As Rich noted in the previous thread about the Trib and passing legislation ===It’s pretty easy to bloviate from an editorial boardroom. It’s a whole lot more difficult to actually pass legislation and get it signed into law.==== Same holds true here. If Boch keeps bloviating (I will have to look that up) it can be just enough to sway a legislator who is on the fence to jump the other way. I can’t see his rants picking up any new votes. - Just Observing - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 10:42 am: As both a Jew and a supporter of concealed carry, I don’t know if it’s necessary for everyone to stand on their soap box and denounce this goof — in fact, it lends more credibility to him and his group. Just cause the media found an angle on this story, doesn’t mean him or his group holds much importance. - Northsider - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 10:45 am: They should denounce John Boch and his comments because they are beyond the pale. There may be decent arguments favoring concealed carry, but after reading Boch’s outburst, I’m not interested in them any more. As for Boch: He can make this comparison once gun owners have been systematically removed from civic life, attacked on the streets by ginned-up mobs and had their homes, stores and houses of worship systematically attacked; been torn from their daily lives, herded into ghettos for a while, and then sent into the woods to be stripped naked, lined up on the lips of trenches and gunned down to the last man, woman, child, and baby. Or shipped in overcrowded boxcars — in all kinds of weather, from suffocating heat to cold so cold that you stack the dead like fence pickets to shelter the still-living — to extermination camps where they are stripped of all their meager possessions and forced naked into large rooms where they are then gassed to death, with no more thought or feeling than a factory processing ore. All because the national government rules by racism, hatred and ideology. Until then, he should STFU. - Champaign - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 10:49 am: I doubt that supporters of carry will denounce the picture and headline of the article. While Lisa was only interpreting the FOIA statute, the idea of being on a list or possess a special card to just own a firearm or buy ammunition is where the real issue lies. - I'm Just Saying - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 10:52 am: Just Observing, I know that Denial is more than a river in Egypt, if i’m right, this article dominate the front page, like it was the entire front page of the Suntimes, so it may have some importance to a few readers……… - Draznnl (Rhymes with orange) - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 10:58 am: I don’t know that the NRA has ever shown the courage to oppose ridiculous antics by those even more extremist than it is, but it should. I am in the denounce camp. - howie - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 10:58 am: I don’t think it would make much difference either way. If the best argument the anti-CCW crowd has is to take issue with the comments of one individual from the other side of the argument, I would say that speaks volumes. - 47th Ward - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:00 am: I hesitate to call on people like Todd and other ISRA leaders to publicly denounce this guy. They are smart enough to know Boch poisoned the debate, and I’m sure they are not happy about it. Hopefully in the future, they will continue to ignore this guy, ostracize him, etc. But they aren’t responsible for what he wrote or what he said. It would be nice for them to make it clear that they find Boch as absurd as most everyone else does now, and to ignore him forever would be better than to simply denounce what he said/wrote, but continue to work with him in the future. This guy has no place as a spokesman of or leader for any organized interest group, except possibly the Know Nothing Party. - Retired Non-Union Guy - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:02 am: I say ignore it. In this case, like a lot of other political rhetoric, people on both sides make outrageous statements in order to draw attention to their issue of the moment. - formerpolitico - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:07 am: There are so very many more apt historical analogies that the pro-gun people could use - governments that take guns away from their people to oppress them. That’s one reason we have a 2d Amendment. But even these have little to do with concealed carry. But this goofus exemplifies many of the nut-cases who want to carry a concealed handgun around. Scary. - amalia - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:07 am: yes. a sexist who compares Holocaust victims to gun owners is not helpful to the cause. - Lou - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:08 am: You had two choices but lacked the third: Is Boch right? - Ray del Camino - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:11 am: It would bolster the NRA types’ credibility to distance themselves from this jerk. - downhereforyears - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:16 am: DENOUNCE, Todd needs to let the world know that this “wacko” doesn’t speak for his group. - Skorpius - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:17 am: Ignore it. It has nothing to do with concealed carry. A mountain is being created out of a molehill over this. - levois - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:19 am: Denounce, that was incendiary rhetoric that will not help the passage of this bill. - Ahoy - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:24 am: I don’t think the backers need to come out with an official press release denouncing it, but when asked they should not dodge the question and call it what it is, completely stupid. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:30 am: Lou, too funny. - John Bambenek - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:34 am: The whole debate about should X denounce Y is absurd on its face. We all learned from our mothers to ignore people who spout off their mouth. Instead, we are having a debate about whether people who support concealed carry should spend their time denouncing every nutter out there. This is politics, there are nutters everywhere dispersed all over the political spectrum. If I spent my time denouncing every nutter, let’s just say within the Tea Party, I would have no time left for activism, or for that matter, no time left to work my day job, start my business, or spend time with my family. How about the grown ups spend time doing grown up things instead of obsessing about some bed-wetting toddler? Note to AP: I have a FOID card, though it’s expired. Feel free to publish that. - D.P. Gumby - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:43 am: They should “ignore”. Boch is a looney and the more he talks the more it hurts cc and I oppose cc and hope Boch’s drooling helps kill the entire bill!! - Ghost - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:49 am: Denounce The irony to me is that the conceal carry lobby has been for years trying to put aside the sterotype of crazed lunatics weilding guns. The approach has been to try and change the imegaery to a well policed program where everyday people are able to carry a wepaon for their protection. I have supported conceal carry, but I find myself rethinking such wisdom when I see somone like Boch stricing so hard to wander around with a gun. If the conceal carry spporters need to denounce the loons or end up with the image, rightly or wronly as a stero type may be, of lunatics running about ready to shoot anyone who crosses or conflicts with their perception of reality. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 11:49 am: Easy on the insults,people. - wordslinger - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 12:00 pm: If the goal is to get a super-majority, the ISRA should have teed this guy up on Day One. It’s an exercise in addition after all. - Katiedid - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 12:02 pm: Reluctantly, I think they need to denounce it. In general, I agree with John B. on this one, but I think, because of the situation, that’s not necessarily an option. While I run agnotic to opposed on the CC issue, I think if they want this to pass, I think Todd and his groups need to distance themselves from groups like this. They are already fighting an uphill battle with a lot of individuals who think that all gun owners are automatic rifle-toting, militia-supporting extremists (I’m not saying those people are right at all, because they’re not; just that there’s a lot of people who do believe that) and they need to make extra careful that they stay very, very, very far away from those groups. Right now, Boch and his ilk are getting much more attention than Todd and his groups are, so they need to make sure people know that there are groups who want CC, but who aren’t like this guy. They shouldn’t have to, but I think they do. - Just Observing - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 12:04 pm: @I’m Just Saying: Just because it has “dominated” the news, doesn’t make it all that important or relevant. Ever watch the local news’ stories of the cute Panda at the zoo? - Louis G. Atsaves - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 12:05 pm: I voted no. If we denounce these comments, which standing by themselves collapse under the weight of well documented history, then we’ve given a measure of credibility to them. - Gary - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 12:17 pm: I think that is too funny that some folks think that Lou is “funny”. I agree with Lou. - John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 12:36 pm: Well, “ignore” is the only reasonable answer. Boch’s soap box was about the release of the names of FOID holders. Lists were made of Jews and of firearms owners long before the first boxcar was filled, and indeed enabled the process. Ignore, because CCW is a different issue. However, I do feel that John may have lost any opportunity to win over the Senator to our cause… - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 12:41 pm: JJJS, the thing many of y’all can’t quite comprehend is that the government already has the list of FOID cardholders and their addresses - and has had for a number of years. This whole controversy was about making part of that government-controlled list public. - DM - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 12:44 pm: I think the analogy was a reach. I am very pro cc, and I sorta get what he was trying to do. It is intended to be shocking and cause a stir. Should he be “denounced”. Don’t know. I can see both sides of that one. - David Lawson aka Federal Farmer - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 12:54 pm: Silverstein is my State Senator, at the moment (who knows where the lines will be drawn after remap). I’ve tried to engage him several times over the years and he hasn’t been interested in discussing gun rights issues. My wife made some inroads, or at least she thinks so, but now that opportunity is probably lost. I don’t blame Boch though, there was little chance of getting Silverstein on board anyway. Ignore is the best option. If they support or denounce they will anger some folks. Personally I think, as I’ve stated in other threads, that the FOID/FOIA release of names is far from extermination. However, I can be, and probably is, intended to expose or shame gun owners and create a hostile environment in the community for them. Alienate their children, deny jobs, etc. So perhaps more analogous to Krystallnacht than the Holocaust itself, but without the broken glass. Sure the government already has the list. But the first step, if there were one, would be to ostracize and demonize, which would require identifying gun owners to the civilian population. I’m an activist and a plaintiff, so my information is public knowledge. However, I empathize with those that want to keep that information private. Either to protect business/employment opportunities or daycare, school, and child playmate opportunities. - TJ - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 12:58 pm: Yes, he should absolutely be denounced. There’s a little thing called Godwin’s Law, which more or less makes the point that the longer a conversation goes on, the likelihood of someone making a Nazi/Hitler comparison approaches 1. Additionally, by the same token, it’s also viewed as an automatic debate/argument losing statement if you’re the first person to play the Nazi card in any matter other than committing genocide. In other words, not only is it an offensive and ahistorical thing to say, but it’s also an insanely weak debate tactic that only highlights your own stupidity and is already looked down upon by pretty much anyone with real experience online in web forums and discussions. - On Vacation - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 12:59 pm: Any serious backer of the conceal and carry should denounce. Remaining silent lumps them in with this guy. It’s human nature that any hot-button, political issue brings out the wack jobs. It’s also true, in my opinion, that these wack jobs can be found on the right side of the aisle. I bet if you look into this guy deep enough chances are he’s not a liberal democrat who supports the current occupant of the White House or Governor’s Mansion. He probably would like to visit Wasila too! - wordslinger - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:02 pm: –So perhaps more analogous to Krystallnacht than the Holocaust itself, but without the broken glass.– No, it’s really not. Attorney’s general opinion on an FOIA request vs. Kristallnacht, in which scores were murdered, tens of thousands interned and tortured (hundreds died), thousands of homes, businesses and synagogues ransacked or burned to the ground. Where does this sense of victimization come from? - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:07 pm: ===Where does this sense of victimization come from? === A deep misunderstanding of history and extreme paranoia. - MrJM - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:09 pm: Should Statehouse backers of the concealed carry proposal publicly denounce Boch’s comments or ignore them? They should publicly denounce Boch’s comments but only if they really want concealed carry. If they actually want it to fade away, they should ignore Boch’s foolishness and let it fester. – MrJM - Skeeter - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:13 pm: Before I read the comments, I was in the “ignore the guy” camp. But reading the comments, I see many “ignore the guy” comments from the pro-cc people and I find that a bit troubling. So many comments by people on his side raises a real question with me as to how they feel about it. I’m now in the “denounce” camp just because I question how many in the pro-cc camp feel about what should be a pretty simple issue. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:18 pm: ===I find that a bit troubling.=== You should see the ones I’ve deleted. - Skeeter - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:22 pm: One note regarding Todd — when this issue came up in this forum last week, Miller suggested that he “muzzle” guys like Boch. Todd responded to that threat twice. Neither time did he mention Boch. I have to think that was intentional. What you don’t say is as important as what you do. - David Lawson aka Federal Farmer - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:24 pm: In the linked article on Fox, Rich Miller is attributed as stating that the leader of JPFO is Lutheran. Isn’t the term ‘Jewish’ both an ethnic and a religious term? Can’t one be Jewish but not a follower of Judaism? I know personally people that aren’t religious that call themselves Jewish. I googled “Jewish and Lutheran” and one of the top links was about Karl Marx, whose father was Jewish but was forced to convert to Lutheran. At any rate, the founder of JPFO was Aaron Zelman, who was Jewish and who passed last December. The ‘Lutheran’ is an interim director. Fox and others could have fact-checked that in 30 seconds. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:25 pm: David, Fox got it wrong. That was in Bernie’s column. Skeeter, I’ve been wondering where Todd’s been all day. - David Lawson aka Federal Farmer - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:27 pm: The anti-CC crowd has near zero grass-roots. Denouncing won’t give ISRA/NRA any supporters. - David Lawson aka Federal Farmer - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:28 pm: Rich, I’m not surprised. Fact-checking seems to be an antiquated notion these days. As for Todd’s whereabouts, probably getting some personal stuff done since the session doesn’t start until tomorrow and I forsee a busy couple weeks for him. - David Lawson aka Federal Farmer - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:31 pm: By the way, it is Silverstein that is claiming victimhood in this kerfluffle. - Skeeter - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:32 pm: “The anti-CC crowd has near zero grass-roots. Denouncing won’t give ISRA/NRA any supporters” What the pro-cc people don’t get is that there are a lot of people (including me) that want to be pro-cc because when presented with logical arguments, it seems to make sense. The problem for people like me is that the more the pro-cc people talk, the more they sound paranoid and delusional (Nazis? Shooting a mugger?) that scares the heck out of me. If they would just shut the heck up and denounce the lunies they could convince a lot of people. But they’ve gone with “stir up the base and write off everybody else” instead. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:33 pm: ===it is Silverstein that is claiming victimhood in this kerfluffle. === No, it’s not. Those who are saying they’ll be exterminated like the Jews were in Nazi Germany are clearly the ones playing the victim card here. And a radical victim card it is. Heck, it’s the whole deck. Or half a deck, since they seem to be several cards shy of a full deck. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:40 pm: Todd, by the way, is in transit today and hasn’t yet seen the blog. - wordslinger - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:41 pm: ===it is Silverstein that is claiming victimhood in this kerfluffle. === Dave, I believe you said the attorney general opinion put gunowners on the “slippery slope” to Kristallnacht. By the way, Kristallnacht was carried out by agents of the government’s ruling party. The government already has the FOID list. Have we been on this slippery slope since the institution of FOID cards? - John Bambenek - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:45 pm: Here is a question that should be asked also… Should Boch’s comments have been made front-page worthy anyway? I never heard the name before though I’ve seen the signs. - wordslinger - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:58 pm: –Krystallnacht was perpetrated by mobs as well as state actors. Also, it was only possible after the Jews were stigmatized.– It was a nationwide, state-initiated, sanctioned supported and coordinated pogrom. Is that the slippery slope you find yourself on? - 47th Ward - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 1:59 pm: DLAFF, I won’t answer for Skeeter, but I’ll give you my take on this. A few weeks ago, someone here posted a comment about a restaurant owner who handles cash perhaps wanting to carry a concealed weapon. I know a couple of friends who fit this description. I also know them to be responsible people, so in that context, CC might make sense. On the other hand, the rhetoric coming from Boch, and frankly you, paints a picture of guys in compounds, armed to the teeth, seeking not protection, but a projection of wild paranoid conspiracies. Since I don’t know anyone who fits that description, it’s hard to personalize it. I would strongly prefer these people NOT have the ability to carry weapons outside of their compounds. Find a cabdriver, a bar owner, a currency exchange owner who isn’t ranting about wild paranoid fantasies and make them your spokespersons. The people comparing this to Nazi Germany are scaring the heck out of middle of the roaders like me. If you do this, I won’t vocally and financially oppose any legislators I know who vote for it. If you don’t, I will. How’s that for action? - Wumpus - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 2:22 pm: If someone brings it up, denounce away. I am not one for apologizing for comments of those not affiliated with my group. Should I apologize for Rich’s statement’s on the Cubs? - David Lawson aka Federal Farmer - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 2:23 pm: Wordslinger, first, every path begins with a step. I equated the release of names as the first step in demonizing and ostracizing, which in Germany led to the public acceptance, and participation, in future pogroms. Do I forsee a pogrom here in the US? No, but I wouldn’t rule it out. As I’ve stated before, I feel the demonization and ostracization of gun owners is the most iminent threat. 47th Ward…45th Ward here. My state rep ran unopposed in the general election and had the machine support in the primary. Not sure who yours is, but I’m probably not counting on his vote anyway. Frankly, I don’t see you getting up from your chair in opposition or support. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 2:27 pm: ===Do I forsee a pogrom here in the US? No, but I wouldn’t rule it out. As I’ve stated before, I feel the demonization and ostracization of gun owners is the most iminent threat.=== You gotta be kidding me. - wordslinger - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 2:29 pm: ===Do I forsee a pogrom here in the US? No, but I wouldn’t rule it out. As I’ve stated before, I feel the demonization and ostracization of gun owners is the most iminent threat.=== Do you see a program of demonization and ostracization at work now? If so, what elements are behind it and how does it manifest itself? - Skeeter - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 2:35 pm: Lawson, First, 47th did sum up my views pretty well. I would add that like most regulars on this forum, I know people. I speak to my own state rep and state senator relatively often (for what it is worth, my understanding from them is that since both are Dems from Chicago, the gun people have made no effort to get their votes anyway). If I had the idea that gun people were not insane, I might actually speak up in favor for the reasons that 47th mentioned. However, my fear is that if it passes, the guy behind the counter might get a weapon but also people like Lawson (yes, I put you in that category) and Moch might get one. People like that don’t seem to be rational enough to handle something of that nature. If you need a gun to prevent a holocaust, you should not have a gun. And Lawson, do you know why you don’t have the support of the city Dems? 1. You never tried; and 2. Many of you appear to be genuine dingbats. 48 state have CC in some form. What those 48 don’t have is people like Lawson and Boch and the ILNRA making the rest of us think that gun owners are bonkers. - 47th Ward - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 2:41 pm: ===The anti-CC crowd has near zero grass-roots=== Keep posting DLAFF. You and Boch are doing a good job of creating a veritable tall grass prairie of opposition. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 2:46 pm: Drylok, if you gotta ask… - Gary - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 2:54 pm: Drylok knew the answer before he asked, I am sure, but probably just wanted to see if you would admit your thoughts on how you think that Boch was so far off-base. I find this whole affair humorous. For years, the holocaust and the use of the term “NAZI” to demonize the critics of the left has been normal fare. It seems that what is good for the goose is not good for the gander in the world of the radical left. Keep in mind that there are a lot of Democrats supporting Boch’s position on the FOID and CCW. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 2:56 pm: ===use of the term “NAZI” to demonize the critics of the left has been normal fare.=== Not on this blog it hasn’t. And not by me, either. “Nazi” is a word that automatically puts blog comments into a holding pen. Has been since some idiot used it. I only took it out last week when this goofiness started because I had to work too much. It’s back in there now. Also, I find the rest of your comment repugnant. Adios. Have a nice life. - David Lawson aka Federal Farmer - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 2:59 pm: Rich, your comment is rather limited. Am I to understand that you think it is ridiculous that I wouldn’t rule a pogrom at some future date? I also don’t rule out a meteor strike, earthquake, or Yellowstone busting loose either. Doesn’t mean I’m packing away food, water, and ammo. Wordslinger, I do, so far at a limited level. I know people at major institutions in Chicago who’s company presidents have gotten letters about the person intending that they lose their job or at least standing because they have stood up for gun rights. With the release of FOIA, I see lots of opportunity, as I have stated many times on this blog, for ostracization in day cares, work-places, schools, etc. I see demonization right here on this web-site. I see, frankly, obscene paranois about ‘nutty gun guys’. Give me a break. There is nothing different about the 12 million or so residents of Illinois than, say, Texas or any other state that allows CCW. I don’t know if you know this, but Alan Gura (who won Heller and McDonald) takes great pains to select his plaintiffs. He’d never had taken me as a client in McDonald if he didn’t know I was a steady guy. I have a CFP, FOID, C&R FFL and, as a consequence, have passed numerous background checks. I’ve never gotten into so much as a shouting match in decades. You won’t find any assault, battery, or even an arrest in my record. You won’t find any manifestos, I don’t have a compound or bunker. I take offense to being caricatured as a looney by people who don’t know me. I’ve got a scientific and engineering background and take very little on faith. This means I don’t rule out scenarios that, while probably very unlikely, have happened in our past as well as in other countries and therefore can possibly happen again. I’m about the last person you have to worry about. Skeeter, I have worked diligently with my State, City, and County officials and write, call, and visit them as often as I can. They have snubbed me, not the reverse. We have been working on the ground in Chicago and around the state, attending and speaking at RTC townhall meetings. Just Saturday, my wife joined other grassroots activists in distributing information to folks at various southside EL stops. - wordslinger - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 3:14 pm: –I also don’t rule out a meteor strike, earthquake, or Yellowstone busting loose either. Hopefully, the attorney’s general’s opinion on the FOIA request aren’t slippery slopes for those occurrences as well. - He's one man - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 3:24 pm: John Boch is the President of GSL/CCRA and one of the two editors. I don’t believe that anyone else is consulted when his work is published. Furthermore, no matter how you slice it, the comparison made was not an attack on Jewish people, it was an unreasonable comparison made in his own opinion; hardly the tinder to create the firestorm that has been whipped up over this incident. - David Lawson aka Federal Farmer - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 3:29 pm: Wordslinger, I have, however, ruled out FEMA camps, though not the Zombie Apocalypse. Submitting FOIA requests now… - Skeeter - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 3:35 pm: Lawson, there are a lot of highly educated people who lack touch with reality. If you don’t understand how saying that release of FOIA cards might lead to a holocaust will strike people as extreme, then perhaps you are not the best spokesman for your cause. You do not seem to be in touch with the impact of those ideas. With regard to “he’s one man”: If when this story broke, Todd has strongly spoken out and said “This person does not represent the views of Illinois gun owners” the story would have died quickly. We are discussing it here only because there is a real issue of whether people think Boch is right. Seems like a lot of gun owners do (at least the ones that post here). Boch seems to have struck a chord with gun owners who agree with him. So yes, the fact that gun owners fear that government wants to release their names and then wipe them out is, in fact, worthy of a firestorm. - David Lawson aka Federal Farmer - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 3:58 pm: Lack touch with reality? Do I think it could happen in the next 10 years? No. Next 50? Probably not. But you should note that it was only some 60 years ago that we rounded up loyal American citizens into camps where some died or were abused and their property was stolen. We only just recently apologized for that and made some amends. Go farther back into our history and you can find many other atrocities. The guy who is on the $20 bill in your wallet told the Supreme Court to stuff it and marched Native Americans to reservations out west in what is called the “Trail of Tears.” Mr. Boch’s article was hyperbolic, and I wouldn’t have written it, but I don’t feel he owes any apologies. - Palatine - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 4:01 pm: Boch’s comments can’t help the cause and it certainly inflames the process, but he is intitled to his opinions. Just ignore it. - lollinois - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 4:11 pm: If I was a supporter of a CC bill, and I were asked about this guy, I would certainly denounce his comments. Politically speaking I don’t think you would lose much support simply for saying comparisons to Nazi-ism and Hitler-era Germany were overblown. Otherwise, if I were a CC-bill supporter who wasn’t asked directly about them, I think ignoring the comments is the best bet. Better this blows over sooner rather than later. - Yellow Dog Democrat - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 4:11 pm: It ain’t up to the bill’s sponsors to denounce the Wingnut. The Wingnut isn’t commenting on the bill, but on AG Madigan’s actions. The NRA shouldn’t bother denouncing him either, they should just tell him to apologize and then send him to Aruba until adjournment. However, my guess is that John Boch is not only NOT going away, he’ll get louder, because this is the most attention he’s ever had in his life, and his invocation of Godwin’s Law was clearly a cry for attention. - Wensicia - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 4:53 pm: Does anyone really think ignoring this kind of rhetoric makes it go away? Has ignoring the Tea Party worked? Denounce! - David Lawson aka Federal Farmer - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 4:59 pm: Northsider, let me get this straight, you are dismissing the valid arguments because of this invalid one? How does that make sense? Betcha $5 you had already, dismissed all arguments. - Mr. Boch - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 5:31 pm: Ignore, and I’ll tell you why: It isn’t going to matter. I’d cheerfully tone down the rhetoric if Senator Silverstein would cast a vote “aye” for right-to-carry. But he’s not. As for the Sun-Times’ editorial today… I like how they use half-truths to justify their flawed logic, which you, Mr. Miller, quoted an excerpt from. Here’s my reply to the Sun-Times: The comparison stands. … The Sun-Times tries to take the easy cheap shot at gun owners, using half-truths and sleight of hand to obscure the truth. It’s interesting that the Sun-Times chose to include only half the message of the picture printed in the .pdf of the April 2011 issue of GunNews to justify it’s flawed logic. For those who missed it, the April 2011 issue is featured on the Sun-Times website and at the http://www.gunssavelife.com website. The left half of the photo featured the Israeli flag, a gun and the message: “ARMED, people fly their colors”. The right half of the photo featured the cloth Star of David that Jews were required to wear during the time of the Holocaust in German-controlled areas of Europe, along with the words, “DISARMED, victims wear their colors”. For those who don’t understand it, armed citizenry don’t make good candidates for genocide or victimhood. Aaron Zelman, the founder of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership once said, “If every Jewish and anti-Nazi family in Germany had owned a Mauser rifle, twenty rounds of ammunition and the will to use it, Adolf Hitler would be a little-known footnote to the history of the Weimar Republic.” At Guns Save Life, we take the Holocaust very seriously and work to make the words “NEVER AGAIN” more than a cheap political slogan. This is why we objected so vociferously to Lisa Madigan’s proposal to publicly identify every registered gun owner in Illinois. Yes, a “maniacal government, supported by powerful cultural forces” led to the attempted annihilation of every Jew in German-controlled areas of Europe, along with other “classes” of citizenry that were deemed inferior by the lunatic leadership of Germany. However, maniacal governments wouldn’t have been able to carry out that “Final Solution” if the Jews were armed and not identified publicly. This is the same reason the Germans didn’t invade Switzerland – because the people there were armed and weren’t going to bow down to Nazi intimidation. We at Guns Save Life won’t bow down to Senator Silverstein’s intimidation, nor editorials that fail to consider the full context in which the symbols in question were presented. The comparison stands. If you don’t understand it or find it offensive, perhaps you should read up on pre-World War II history with regard to the Holocaust. “NEVER AGAIN”. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 5:33 pm: ===This is the same reason the Germans didn’t invade Switzerland – because the people there were armed and weren’t going to bow down to Nazi intimidation.=== Huh. I missed those stories about the Soviets being unarmed. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 5:33 pm: ===won’t bow down to Senator Silverstein’s intimidation=== Intimidation? Really? He asked for an apology. That’s intimidation? Who’s the little girl now? - Mr. Boch - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 5:40 pm: Thank you for not deleting my post. As for Russians… ever heard of all the people Stalin killed? More than Hitler, interestingly enough. And civilians in Russia were very much prohibited to own firearms. - Wensicia - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 5:51 pm: I love the “We would end dictatorship as we know it if everyone was armed!” argument. Are you serious?? - wordslinger - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 5:55 pm: ===This is the same reason the Germans didn’t invade Switzerland – because the people there were armed and weren’t going to bow down to Nazi intimidation.=== Yes, those Swiss Army knives did the trick. Rommel was afraid he’d get a corkscrew in the eye. The forbidding terrain of the Alps — and the need for a nice, quiet, discreet, nearby place to stash all your stolen gold and goodies, just in case — had nothing to do with it. Armed Swiss irregulars were unbeatable, while the Russian, Brit and American armed forces were considered pushovers. Interesting perspective. By the way, there wasn’t a whole lot of “bowing down” to Nazi intimidation in Occupied Europe, except by collaborators. There was a lot of fighting and dying from the time of invasion through VE Day, either overtly or covertly. - Skeeter - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 6:36 pm: Have to love the Swiss comments. Bloch believes a few people with handguns will stop genoicide, despite the fact that Germany also attacked Britain, which had a the Royal Navy, the Royal Airforce, and a big army. Bloch, if any Army, Navy, and Airforce would not prevent an attack, I thinking that a few with handguns are not going to do it either. - Kevin Highland - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 6:52 pm: @Skeeter, Was your misspelling of Mr. Boch’s name an accident or a deliberate attempt to marginalize him? Point out the flaws in his argument but be big enough to at least get his name right. - Skeeter - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 6:54 pm: Kevin, first we misspell their names, then we take away their guns, and then we send them to the camps. It has been in the works for a while. Damn! I was hoping you would not figure out our plan. - lollinois - Monday, Apr 25, 11 @ 7:08 pm: Mr. Boch - Nazi Germany forcibly annexed Austria and Czechoslovakia before invading (among others) Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, France, Luxembourg, Serbia, Yugoslavia, Romania, Estonia, and of course the Soviet Union. Do you claim to state that Switzerland remains off of this list because its populace was somehow better armed and had more will to defend itself than the rest of Europe against invasion from Nazi Germany? Do you have any sort of sources which would back up such a claim? It would seem that by your logic, you would take issue with the government publicly identifying lists of citizens of any kind, for fear they might be discriminated against. Is that a true statement? Should the government not publish lists of registered voters to the public? Driving records? Sex offender lists? If you truly wish to make the words “NEVER AGAIN” mean something, you might try to examine the culture of violent, vitriolic hate and extremism that led to the horrors of the Holocaust, and work to ensure our society does not follow down the same path. Part of that effort would be to maintain some rationality and civility in public debate, and not make comparisons to the most horrific acts in a century because of one state Attorney General’s decision to publish a list. - Skeeter - Tuesday, Apr 26, 11 @ 5:54 am: Can’t remember the last time Todd didn’t add his wit and learning to a gun thread on this forum. Strange timing on his part, but there must be a reason. - Todd - Tuesday, Apr 26, 11 @ 7:18 am: Sorry for the delay, after getting to the capitol i had a couple of meetings then my laptop got a virus opening an email. My position with NRA is to work on and comment on legislation. This has spun off into a class of personalities. sen. Silverstien took issue with the use of the holocaust as a comparision of the release of the FOID card list. Mr. Boch did not grant the appology requested and told the senator he didn’t really care what he thought. So now the issue turns to the various comments of mr. Boch in the press and what people think of them. There are strong feelings and beliefs on both side of the gun issue. Each side has people who take things to the extreme, logically, figuratively and with analogy. I can recall Sen. kotowski arguing in committee that if we allowed hqndgun hunting for deer what next “handgrenades?” it even made the suntimes as i recall. Was he right? No but he can say what he wants no matter how goofy it makes him look. i’m sure some on his side of the issue have rolled their eyes at his comments. I’ve let my boss know of the issue. I will let them decide how to proceed from here. My personal side is i would not have used the title and i have said publically that i think some gogos in ag madigans office saw this as open government. I dont think the really thought about the politics of it, nor knew what they were getting in to. But now it seems it is not about the issue but about personalities. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.