52 Comments - I'm Just Saying - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 10:17 am: I’ll keep it plain and simple and be as non-vitriolic as I can, Cardinal George needs to resign, he does not have the temperament for the job. He is a mean spirited bully who in the end will cost the church in the end, I went to mass on Christmas and I noticed folks passing the plate without dropping a dime I have heard Archbishop J. Peter Sartain of Seattle may be waiting in the wings Word is the plan is for the Pope to give Cardinal George two more years and then put Sartain in, I dont’ think he can afford to do that right now….. - Montrose - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 10:22 am: Every time I think I might start re-engaging with the Catholic Church, they do something like this. As Rich said - Wow. Just, wow. - Cheryl44 - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 10:27 am: Isn’t he due to retire soon? - Anonymous - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 10:29 am: Speaking as a non-Catholic, the most holy person I’ve ever seen in person was Joseph Cardinal Bernardin. He was a deeply inspirational and spiritual figure. Cardinal George has, to put it mildly, not been a worthy successor. - Dirt Digger - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 10:31 am: I like that this is happening just as those “Catholics Come Home” ads are all over tv. “Come back to the Church! Also your best friend is a Klansman!” - Small Town Liberal - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 10:36 am: - paraded through American cities not only to interfere with Catholic worship but also to demonstrate that Catholics stand outside of the American consensus. - I’ll say it again, who the heck thinks of the KKK and their first thought is about them being anti-Catholic? George needs to stop playing the victim and get back to work helping poor folks and such. Such petulant whining has it’s place in junior high, not among adults. Aside from that, Pride isn’t about interfering with anyone, it’s about celebrating tolerance and people being proud of who they are. Maybe the Catholic Church should start focusing more on making their members proud to be Catholics. - walkinfool - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 10:39 am: I’m beginning to feel sorry for the Cardinal. He sees imaginary attacks, he’s incapable of admitting a mistake, and his mind is making weird associations. I hope he doesn’t think this is somehow inspiring his troops. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 10:46 am: Given the fact that the cardinal made his original remarks after a compromise had already been reached, and then chose to repeat them later, it strikes me that he’s just been itching for an opportunity to make his ludicrous analogy. Very sad, given the real discrimination practiced against Catholics by business, political and governmental power structures for much of this country’s history. Back in the day, the DeKalb Cornfest agreed to open up their beer garden an hour later on Sunday to avoid a repeat of the year before when parishioners exiting churches were greeted by the wails of “g-d, I’m The Pusherman” from John Kaye a couple of blocks away. It wasn’t a challenge to anyone’s religious freedom. It was just kegs and a summer oldies show. - Wensicia - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 10:49 am: I read Cardinal George had to submit his letter of retirement to the Pope recently, due to his age. I hope the Pope accepts it. Cardinal Gearge cannot continue to represent his Church in this Archdiocese, he has become too aggresively confrontational. He doesn’t represent or support many of his faith; instead he seeks to criticize and punish, rather than forgive and embrace. - cermak_rd - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 10:52 am: It’s clearly intentional, I mean he’s tried to make this point a few times now and has forsaken all means offered him to back down. I wonder if the fact that he’s doing it while the Catholics Come Home ads are running is intentional. He may, in fact, not want a bunch of disaffected Catholics to return. The campaign is run by a Atlanta org, Catholics Come Home, Inc. and it has a passel of Bishops and Cardinals on its theological team, but Cardinal George isn’t one of them. - ILPundit - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 10:57 am: I was raised as a Catholic and went to Catholic schools as a kid. I feel like the perfect church for me would be a Catholic Church that practiced tolerance, and didn’t have a worldwide habit of abusing children and then covering it up. I don’t understand why that’s so hard. - Aldyth - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:04 am: Sometimes, bad publicity is better than no publicity. This case is not one of those times. - Jade_Rabbit - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:05 am: The Catholic Church has a moral compass. People forget that. It’s part of the Cardinal’s job to remind the flock of the compass. Our society might be a little better off if we reminded people that tolerance does not imply acceptance. Civil rights movements have led to great achievements. But there are parts of our society, regardless of the laws on the books that protect us, we will not better or protect ourselves. In summary, we need people that are going to define right and wrong. The laws on the books are supposed to protect us from stealing pension funds and spending more than revenue. Our politicians are thieves and we can’t trust them. All the barriers have come down and crime, poverty, and hunger have gone up. Maybe society needs barriers. Maybe we as a people have gone too far and have opened a door that not only lets us out to be free, but also lets in everyone we may have wanted to keep out. - soccermom - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:08 am: Cheryl and Wensicia — I did some research over the break and found that all cardinals are requested to submit their resignations at age 75, although the Pope often chooses not to accept them. http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100018.htm The issue is a serious one in the United States, where a significant number of bishops are at or nearing retirement age. Here’s a conspiracy theory for you: Is it possible Cardinal George is ready to retire and wants to make sure the Pope will accept his letter? Because otherwise — man, I don’t see the upside on this one. It’s not likely to increase attendance or fill the plates… - wordslinger - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:09 am: –The Catholic Church has a moral compass. – And the compass points from a Gay Pride Parade to the KKK? –All the barriers have come down and crime, poverty, and hunger have gone up– What are you talking about? - zatoichi - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:11 am: George seems to be hitting the frustration wall big time. Attendance down, revenue dropping, facility closures, past actions on scandals coming back to bite, general PR problems, membership wanting immediate improvements while having conflicting expectations. Not to mention the moral guidance stuff. Sounds like the issues many large corporations are facing. Pretty hard to focus on positive outcomes when everything is seen as an attack, but that comes with the turf. He needs that backroom person who can strongly argue/criticize when he drifts too far off the page. - ChicagoR - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:16 am: The most egregious part of this is that he blames the victims here - he says that parade organizers “invited the comparison” to the KKK. Really, by working with the City to deal with the throngs of attendees, these people begged to be compared to the KKK? That’s disgusting. - soccermom - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:19 am: And I don’t mean to be inflammatory, but every time this issue re-erupts, someone mentions the church’s silence about priests who have abused children. This kind of selective moral outrage is infuriating and painful to those who have been harmed by clergy. - Anonymous - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:34 am: Two thoughts - first, although the Cardinal was required to submit his retirement papers, he indicated that he hopes the Pope will give him more time. Perhaps, given who the Pope is, the Cardinal thinks this type of feistiness will appeal to the Pope; show him that he still has the “fight” in him. God knows the Church has been pretty tone deaf when it comes to PR on social issues. Second - can anyone figure out what Jade Rabbit wrote? - Wensicia - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:35 am: @soccermom, I’m not big on conspiracy theories; I believe there is another reason for the recent attacks in the media by the Cardinal. I think he’s bitter about the Church’s loss of political influence in this state. But, lashing out at the governor and gays isn’t earning him any points with the public. In fact, it’s turning away members of his own flock. Something he’ll probably blame on recent “immoral” decisions like civil unions. - soccermom - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:45 am: @Wensicia — Yeah, I realize it’s a reach. But it’s the only sane reason I could come up with. Because this one is a bad, bad idea. - Borealis - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:55 am: There is now a protest scheduled on 1/8/12 at Holy Name to publicly call out the Cardinal on his remarks and lack of remorse at his callous comments being organized by the Chicago LGBT community. I think it’s going to be very crowded. - cermak_rd - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 12:05 pm: I think for the Cardinal, the political loss of power is just a symptom. What I think he wants is a return to the institutional nature of the Catholic Church as opposed to the current propositional nature. Right now, Catholics who attend mass once a week agree (primarily) with the Church on most issues. Catholics who don’t attend once a week, by and large don’t. So one idea some people have got is that if you just drag those non-agreers to mass more often, they’ll change their minds. Or you can look at it like, well, the non-agreers don’t agree so they don’t go to mass every week. I think the Cardinal takes the second view. The Catholic Church in America is considered by the laity to be a propositional Church. If you agree, you attend, if you don’t, then you don’t. This is what the Cardinal refers to as a Protestant way of viewing the Church. I think he would like to get back to the institutional view of the church. You attend because you fear Hell (and the loss of Heaven) and you believe the Church controls these things. The only way to get back to the institutional view is to make sure that the Catholics in the pews have that view, even if you have to shrink the Church until you start with 20% of your current numbers. - Cook County Commoner - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 12:18 pm: The Catholic Church has been losing market share in the religionist business for quite a while. Perhaps, this was the Cardinal’s ham-handed way of increasing revenues by catering to homophobes and other bigots. Perhaps, the Cardinal should consult with management at Westboro Baptist for additional ideas on increasing market share. - Because I say so... - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 12:23 pm: As I was writing a generous check for my Christmas offering, I couldn’t help but wish that all the money could stay with my local parish rather than a portion sent off to the Archdiocese. I hadn’t been to mass in a while for various reasons but mostly my anger at how the Church has dealt with child abuse. For me, going to church is like exercise; I usually feel better when I’m in the habit. Cardinal George makes it really hard for me to get back into my healthy routine. - Jade_Rabbit - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 12:41 pm: I am amazed that so many people place their faith in the hands of other people. I don’t go to church because I agree or disagree with the people around me. I go because I need a personal spiritual connection with God. People that state that the Cardinal influences their attendance obviously are selfish and rationalizing. The community around you in the build is what make the church. I hope that most people on this blog don’t vote with the same mind set. We need to find our leaders and elevate them. By running away from our responsiblities because we disagree with those at the front only increases the odds that we are going to have more of the same for years to come! - Esquire - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 12:42 pm: @Anonymous: Some people think that Cardinal Francis George was selected to succeed Cardinal Joseph Bernandin deliberately since Bernandin was viewed as being too “ecumenical” and liberal in his approach by the Vatican authorities in Rome. @publius: Do you also mock and ridicule Orthodox Jews or the Amish for wearing clothing that reflects what was considered appropriate forms of ceremonial dress for religious occasions in an earlier generation? I suppose those high school and college seniors look awfully funny in caps and gowns too. What is this the Middle Ages? - wordslinger - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 12:49 pm: I think Jade Rabbit is a gag. Every sentence is contradicted by the next or simply incoherent. - soccermom - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 12:55 pm: CCC — I assume you’re being sarcastic, as Westboro’s market share is limited pretty much to immediate family members of the pastor. (Although within that market, I think their reach is significant.) - sal-says - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 1:49 pm: I suspect there are good reasons for the Catholic hierarchy to require retirement ‘letters’ at 75 years of age. Too bad retirement isn’t mandatory BY then. Unfortunately, some folks get to 75 mentally well before then. It does seem as if George is one of them. He hasn’t distinguished himself for a while now with the Quinn snit, Pfleger nor the handling of the sex abuse in his churches. Now not letting loose of this KKK stuff??? - Cheryl44 - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 1:57 pm: @Wensicia–Attacks? you mean quoting him when he says stuff like gay=KKK? - Bigtwich - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 2:24 pm: - publius - It did not occur to me there was a laugh anywhere in this. Thanks. - Anonymous - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 2:29 pm: Very sad. Cardinal George should be asking himself WWJD? I can guarantee Jesus would not be comparing organizers or participants in the Pride Parade to the KKK! This kind of behavior ensures the church becomes less and less relevant and less and less respected. - jaranath - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 2:40 pm: “To demonstrate that Catholics stand outside of the American consensus” is the part that really floors me. It seems that George is saying it’s somehow wrong for people to say “we disagree with them”. Either that, or he’s protesting being portrayed as outside the mainstream. The former would be nuts, and the latter is confused. In many ways the Catholic Church IS outside the American mainstream–that’s one reason it’s losing membership and power here. But so what? Being more toward the fringe isn’t a fundamentally bad thing; plenty of American political movements, ideologies, belief systems, etc. exist outside the mainstream and aren’t somehow evil or deplorable purely for that fact. Some happily embrace their outsider status, an image that’s become so popular we now have the spectacle of hardcore politicians straining to convince us they’re outsiders, and mainstream evangelicals proudly advertising they’re “Not Of This World”. Wordslinger: The technical term would be a Poe, as in reference to Poe’s Law, the proposition that a parody of an extreme position is sufficiently difficult to distinguish from a serious statement that many will take it seriously. I’ve read enough comments of that sort to lead me to believe Jade Rabbit IS serious, but then, we wouldn’t have Poe’s Law if people couldn’t be fooled… - Adam Smith - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 2:50 pm: As a 20-year active member of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel parish some folks may be interested in some actual information even if it impedes everyone’s frothing at the mouth. The new parade route was never discussed with Mt. Carmel. Over 1,000 people attend Mass there each week and have for 125 years. The new route and time were presented to OLMC as a “done deal” and we were told, in no uncertain terms by community leaders, not to make a stink. The parish and its pastor sought dialogue and always maintained a respectful tenor. The parish has been home to the Archdiocesean Gay and Lesbian Outreach (AGLO) ministry for years and has many gay members. For us, this was never about the substance of the parade, it was about compatibility and mutual respect. We would object to a Mardi Gras parade or St. Patrick’s Day parade in front of church during Sunday Mass. They just don’t go together. In the spirit of mutual respect we asked parishoners to make their feelings knows to Ald. Tunney and the parade organizers. We tried hard to prevent this from getting swept up in the larger political issues that obsess some detractors of the Church and those on the right who oppose Gay rights. We just wanted to be able to worship as we are called to do in peace and asked the parade leaders to show the respect for our Mass that we show to the parade. And we were making great progress. I’ll admit, at first, many of us thought that the parade organizers were being hostile and that some bias may have crept into their initial reluctance to discuss the matter. It is hard to believe that none of the parade organizers realized that their new route would pass a few feet from the doors to one of the largest Catholic Churches in the city and even atheists know that we nutty Jesus freaks do our hocus pocus on Sunday mornings. There is no doubt that some in the Gay community leadership are intensely hostile towards the Church, as some in the Church are towards them. This is likely the genesis of the Cardinal’s unfortunate remarks. But dialogue was winning the day. Our discussions led to an offer to change the start time of the parade and we were working towards other solutions that would have crafted a mutually-agreeable compromise. Then, the Archbishop had to chime in. When the media initially picked up on this whole story several weeks ago, the Archdiocese had no interest in helping the parish deal with the story. They provided no support or guidance and called it a “parish issue.” So we did our best to find a solution. Cardinal George has expressed his support for the AGLO ministry, which would not exist without his approval. He is a very thoughtful bishop known for his intellect and deep devotion to the Church. His comments and his failure to try to defuse the resulting controversy are deeply distressing to those of us who are his flock. Bishops are human and they make mistakes. And this stands as one of the biggest mistakes we’ve seen since the days of Cardinal Cody. On behalf of my fellow parishoners, I hope people can see that beyond the Cardinal’s comments, there is a story here of two institutions that have some real differences seeking to find a respectful middle ground and to resolve issues without ranting and raving. We are proud of our parish and our community and we are pleased with the progress made locally. We are only afraid that these remarks and subsequent debate will undermine all our progress. - Lefty - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 3:08 pm: The Cardinal should clean up his own house first before making wild accusations. its hard to believe that the Catholic church isn’t losing more members because of all the recent scandels with priests which I’m sure has gone on since the Church was founded. - lakeview - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 3:14 pm: Benedict is a conservative. He’s probably thrilled that George is saying this stuff. It’s all really sad. I’ve pasted in a piece from the Catechism below. It doesn’t support my view, that God doesn’t care, but it doesn’t exactly support the Cardinal, either. “#2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.” - amalia - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 3:15 pm: the Cardinal, and the Vatican, need a Copernican revolution. hey dudes, it’s not all about you! Tribune editorial in the print was a huge whack at the forehead of the doubling down clueless leader. - Yellow Dog Democrat - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 3:25 pm: Ive said it before and I’ll say it again: the Cardinal knows exactly what he’s doing. The Catholic Church was losing the previous debate. He’s succeeded in changing the subject. If you want him to stop, interview Rev. Jackson and ask him what he thinks of the Klan comparison…when a black backlash starts to brew against the cardinal, he will rethink his strategy. But right now, hes succeeded in casting the church as the victim, and the debate is about the degree of the church’s victimization. Three months ago the public discussion was about the catholic church violating the rights of gay Americans. Hats off to you George. Nice pr work. - LINK - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 3:34 pm: Wordslinger, You made me laugh with your reference to Steppenwolf as I use to drag the stereo out go the patio and crank it up during the summer while outside just to irritate the neighbors with the Live album version of said song. Ah, the memories now back to the good Cardinal. - walkinfool - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 4:02 pm: Hey Jade, I think I get what you’re trying to point out. Still, the repeated comparisons by the Cardinal of the Gay Pride parade to the KKK, is stupid, hurtful, and sad, — whether it really matters to the faith of the Church community or not. - Anon for now - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 4:21 pm: Unfortunately, Cardinal George is not the only Catholic leader making such absurd comparisons. Springfield’s Bishop Paprocki has characterized lawsuits filed by the victims of sexual abuse from priests and bishops as being demonic. He compared these lawsuits to historical examples of the use of civil law to inflict wounds on the church, from ancient Rome through England in the era of Henry VIII. http://wdtprs.com/blog/2007/11/bishops-who-believe-and-speak-about-the-devil-as-if-our-enemy-is-real/ - Yellow Dog Democrat - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 4:31 pm: The protest at Holy Name on january 8 plays right into The Cardinal’s hands. I dont know who is organizing it, but they should rethink their tactics. And their strategy. - Boone Logan Square - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 4:43 pm: Exactly how much has the Cardinal been bribed by the Unitarian Universalist Association to make these comments? If the Pope wants a “smaller but purer Church,” Cardinal George is certainly working to achieve that goal. - BigDoggie - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 4:46 pm: First off, I am a lifelong Catholic and have been struggling with the very well publicized issues that the Catholic church has been going through. I think that Cardinal George’s comments were unfortunate and unnecessarily inflammatory. However, I am also bothered by the current media environment in which Catholics and the Catholic church in general are favorite punching bags, and the LGBT community is bulletproof and untouchable as far as negative press goes. Just hearing a spokesperson for the LGBT movement giving an interview criticizing the Cardinal for being “outrageous” and “inappropriate” struck a chord in me. These words are pretty much the basic definitions of any gay pride parade. Yet nobody will call them out for anything, ever. Yes, the Cardinal was shortsighted and stubborn in this whole deal, but God forbid the other side ever gets a critical word in the press (no pun intended). I was never opposed to same-sex relationships or gay marriage for any reason either (and still am not), but now that has ultimately had the devestating effect of knocking Catholic Charities out of the adoption business, as though the decades of awesome services that they have provided mean nothing. Simple acceptance of people’s personal preferences is just that - simple, until you hit the slippery slope of that acceptance undoing other good, well-established charitable organizations that will never be replaced with entirely state-run entities. Rant over. - MrJM - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 4:49 pm: Kramer: “Next thing, you know, you’re saying they should have their own schools.” Jerry:: “They do have their own schools!” Kramer: “Eeh-yah-yah-yah!” – MrJM - Wensicia - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 4:50 pm: ==But right now, he’s succeeded in casting the church as the victim, and the debate is about the degree of the church’s victimization.== I don’t think he’s been successful. The perception most come away with is he’s slandering gays by comparing them to a vicious hate group that supported the murder of millions. He’s the aggressor here, hardly the victim. As Cardinal, what he says reflects his Church’s position; his religion doesn’t benefit from his remarks either. - Yellow Dog Democrat - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 6:29 pm: @BigDoggie- I’m sure the LGBT community would disagree with your “liberal media bias” assessment. Bullying of LGBT youth is a daily occurrence in our public schools. If kids were being taunted and teased for being Catholic every day while CPS employees watched, I’m pretty sure we’d be reading about it in the papers every day. And if leaders of the LGBT community were comparing the Cardinal or the Pope or the Catholic Church to Hitler, the KKK or some other absurdity, I expect the Tribune editorial board would have something to say. Personally, I believe that the common values and common interests of Chicago Catholics and gay Chicagoans far outweigh perceived differences. Just put the Church’s arguments about a pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants side-by-side with gay rights arguments for civil unions. Lots o’ similarities there. Look at the overwhelming number of Catholics who support equal rights for gay Americans and the huge number of gay Americans who consider themselves Catholics. I guess what I’m trying to say here is, while there will always be extremists in this debate, the prospects for peace are considerable. - DuPage Dave - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 8:49 pm: I’m not a Catholic and don’t care who is the archbishop or cardinal or whatever. But any public individual who speaks the kind of trash he’s speaking deserves whatever he gets. To heck with him and his kind. - Peggy R - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 10:04 pm: For the record, the comments of a Roman Catholic Cardinal on the gay movement strikes me as beyond the scope of this blog about IL government and politics. Cheers. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jan 4, 12 @ 12:00 am: ===, the comments of a Roman Catholic Cardinal on the gay movement strikes me as beyond the scope of this blog about IL government and politics.=== You must’ve missed this part… ===A whole lot of politicians march in that parade every year. The Cardinal has just thrown down a very big gauntlet: If you march in that parade, you’re no better than a Klansman. === - wordslinger - Wednesday, Jan 4, 12 @ 8:09 am: ===, the comments of a Roman Catholic Cardinal on the gay movement strikes me as beyond the scope of this blog about IL government and politics.=== Absolutely. Because since St. Peter, the Catholic Church hierarchy has never involved itself in politics. And certainly never in Illinois politics. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.