The endless debate
Tuesday, Jan 3, 2012 - Posted by Rich Miller
* My weekly syndicated newspaper column takes on a familiar topic…
I talked with former state Sen. Howie Carroll last week about state Rep. Bill Mitchell’s (R-Forsyth) proposal to kick Chicago and suburban Cook County out of Illinois.
Mitchell’s resolution has just a tiny number of co-sponsors, but he’s managed to get himself lots of statewide and national media coverage. He clearly appears to be enjoying his 15 minutes of fame, claiming that his region of the state is tired of paying for Chicago’s costly, liberal programs.
Carroll knows all too well about breaking the state in two because he sponsored just such a resolution back in 1981. Carroll, a Chicago Democrat, proposed to make Cook County a separate state. Newspaper accounts at the time said the resolution was introduced in the midst of heated fighting between Chicago-area and downstate legislators over funding for mass transit.
Carroll’s proposal flew out of the Senate on a voice vote. He claimed that once the state was divided in two, downstaters would finally realize that Cook County was paying a lot of their expenses.
Everybody thought Carroll had devised a fine joke — just another in the long line of shots that Chicago legislators were taking at downstaters and vice versa. State Sen. Roger Sommer (R-Morton) told United Press International that he could score points with the folks back home by voting for Carroll’s proposal.
“This is something my constituents have wanted for a long time,” Sommer said.
Carroll’s resolution soon zipped through the House as well. But then House Speaker George Ryan’s lawyers took a closer look and realized that Carroll had exactly followed the U.S. Constitution’s requirements for mandating a congressional vote on splitting an existing state into two.
Carroll wasn’t joking.
Speaker Ryan ordered one of his House members to file a “motion to reconsider” the next day to prevent the resolution from automatically being transmitted to Congress (governors have no say on resolutions). Without that action, Congress would’ve taken a vote on Carroll’s demand.
The debate at the heart of Carroll’s resolution still rages today. Many, if not most, downstaters assume that their taxes are subsidizing Chicago, and Chicagoans tend to have an outsized estimate of how much revenue they’re generating for the rest of Illinois.
A regional analysis of state expenditures versus state revenue hasn’t been done in many years. The General Assembly’s Legislative Research Unit has refused to conduct a new study because of the uproar created the last time it did.
That last report, in 1987, found that the suburbs (including suburban Cook) paid 46 percent of state taxes but got back just 27 percent of state spending.
Downstate was the biggest “tax eater,” paying 33 percent of the state’s taxes while benefiting from 47 percent of the state’s spending, according to the report. It also said Chicago paid 21 percent of the taxes and got 25 percent of the spending.
A few months ago, the highly respected Taxpayers Federation of Illinois published a study of state tax collections. Downstate paid 30 percent of all the personal income and state sales taxes collected in 2009, despite having 35 percent of the population.
Chicago and suburban Cook County paid 40 percent of the two taxes, while having 40.5 percent of the population. About even. And the suburban collar counties paid 30 percent of the two taxes, while having only 24 percent of the population.
Again, we see that the Chicago suburbs are paying an outsized load, while downstate isn’t holding up its end.
The taxpayers federation didn’t look at the corporate income tax. There are a lot more corporations in Chicago and the suburbs compared to downstate.
An official with the federation told me they hope to soon do a regional spending study. But it’s not looking good for downstate’s case. It simply doesn’t have the kind of money that exists in the Chicago area.
Downstate generated just 29 percent of the state’s personal income in 2009, while Cook County had almost 45 percent. And downstate roads, schools, etc. rely heavily on state assistance.
Mitchell and lots of other downstaters might still want to kick Cook County out of Illinois, but, whether they like it or not, taxes and (most likely) spending can’t be used as an excuse.
The Taxpayers Federation study is here.
* Roundup…
* Top Ten Things to Know About Illinois’ Prisons in 2011
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* Tax increase, impact, dominate Illinois Capitol in 2011
* Economy, elections could mean rough 2012 for Illinois
* Video: 2011 Year in Review
* New rules govern everything from seat belts in back seats to hotel smoke detectors
* Local police ready for new laws
* With new year come new tax, fee hikes
* A Look Back At The Budget Battle In The Capitol
* Illinois Bikers Can Run Red Lights Sometimes, But Not In Chicago
* Washington: Some toasts and takedowns of 2011
* Illinois implements new security laws for 2012
* Illinois law intended to improve truck routing
* Bakke: Springfield Christmases past
* Schoenburg: A few things we can hope for in 2012
* Top Quinn aides, U.S. Rep. Jackson meet on Peotone
* Mayoral Bill Misses Cut, Not Dead Yet
* Quinn signs law that tweaks smart grid
- Aldyth - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:47 am:
As a citizen of Forgottonia, the idea of secession is fun for occasionally poking a stick into the eight hundred pound gorilla residing in northeast Illinois. In the practical sense of things, it is silly to contemplate.
- Kasich Walker, Jr. - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:56 am:
If collar county residents feel ripped off, maybe they can get more of their residential property owners to accept section 8 housing vouchers and/or zone for significantly more low cost housing.
- OneMan - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 12:08 pm:
Forgottonia was the 250K question of the daytime version of Who Wants To Be A Millionaire just before Christmas.
- cermak_rd - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 12:23 pm:
Aldyth,
Oh come on! I may be fat, and I do live in Cook County, but 800lb?
Oh wait, you’re not referring to me personally?
Never mind.
- wordslinger - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 12:30 pm:
–If collar county residents feel ripped off, maybe they can get more of their residential property owners to accept section 8 housing vouchers and/or zone for significantly more low cost housing.–
There’s plenty of Section 8 Housing and low-income residents in suburban Cook, DuPage, Lake, McHenry, Will and Kane.
Lots of everything when you’re the fourth largest metro economy in the world.
Let’s not trump uninformed stereotypes with more uninformed stereotypes.
- D.P. Gumby - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 12:45 pm:
As an Forgottonia ex-pat, I can feel your pain. But have any of you been down to Egypt recently?
- Taxhound - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 12:52 pm:
I remember the Carroll proposal. Senator Don Totten began speaking against it, then abruptly changed direction saying something to the effect: wait a minute, if we are a state the we’ll need a governor, 2 US senators, and 6 or 7 congressmen. This could be good.
- Anonymous - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 1:05 pm:
A recent story on Chicago Tonight reported that as of the 2010 census there is now more poverty in the surrounding suburbs than in the city.
- Kasich Walker, Jr. - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 1:06 pm:
In spite of recent increases in poverty in collar counties, it’s tough to compare poverty rates in DuPage with the rest of the state. In 2009 poverty rates for the rest of Illinois (13.3%) were double that of DuPage County (6,5%).
Wouldn’t want those rates to increase anywhere, but maybe the contrast wasn’t as great with Lake & McHenry.
http://www.city-data.com/county/DuPage_County-IL.html
- soccermom - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 1:10 pm:
I wrote emails to the sponsors of this legislation, telling them that I am very proud to live in Illinois and that I find it painful and disheartening that they do not want me as their neighbor. No response…
- wordslinger - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 1:22 pm:
–I wrote emails to the sponsors of this legislation, telling them that I am very proud to live in Illinois and that I find it painful and disheartening that they do not want me as their neighbor. No response…–
Soccermom, they’re busy devising even more brilliant and thoughtful legislation to repel and appall Cook County residents — you know, the county with the most GOP votes in the state (not to mention best potential for growth).
I think next is free rides on the CTA for all who conceal and carry weapons.
I’m sure MJM drew these two rocket scientists nice safe districts to keep them there a long, long time. They do good work for him.
- He Makes Ryan Look Like a Saint - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 1:32 pm:
I think the issues are not money but the differences in beliefs. Just to mention one off the top of my head is Guns, while pretty much the whole state south of I80 is in favor of conceal carry, Chicagoland blocks it. With all the leaders from up north, I think the South doesn’t feel they can get their bills passed.
- wordslinger - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 1:46 pm:
–I think the issues are not money but the differences in beliefs.–
LOL, beliefs in what, someone else picking up the check?
From Mitchell’s mathematically challenged press release on his website:
“Cook County is a tax-eating giant,” Mitchell added.
There should be hearings on this matter with the sponsors answering questions. There should be roll-call votes.
Question: how many GA members from the suburbs want to be divorced from Cook County and be the SOLE money-bags for Downstate? My quess is zero.
- Cincinnatus - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 1:49 pm:
51 stars would look funny on the flag…
- BelleAire - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 2:18 pm:
The Chicago Tonight story was pretty dramatic. It sure made me think about poverty in a different way as it showed people shopping for free food, seeking medical care, and outlined the struggles of being poor no matter where you live.
But, I don’t believe they said there was more poverty in the burbs than Chicago just that it was not as well funded with grants, federal funding,etc. Poverty is expected in Chicago not in Wheaton.
- Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 2:35 pm:
To the point, but in a broader sense.
While sick this past week or so, I was able to watch a series of shows on the History Channel, titled “How the States Got Their Shapes”. This series focused on the unsual borders, how weather and boarders mix, how geography, both good and bad, made some states a certain way. You get the point.
One episode was on the economics. An example was Colorado, a square state, was not suppose to be that square, but got its shape because of the need of farming to help the struggling shape as a whole exist and thrive economically. The two unique areas would not allow 2 states to exist, so the only way they both could exist was to have them unite, and make that square.
The point?
Even in the early 1800’s, while according to legend, Illinois lied about the population to become a state in the first place, the entire area which became Illinois was needed to eneter the union. As we come to the 200 anniversary of statehood, this state needs ALL of its counties to survive and thrive, like Colorado needed its two parts to be whole.
Illinois is at its best, when upstate and downstate and urban and rural focus on the mutual needs of Illinois, not the geography that can divide us all.
Check out the series, “How the States Got Their Shapes”. Interesting watch. Living in Kendall County, I know I need Chicago, Cook County, and the rest of the suburbs.
I know that rural Illinois gains much from the “Chicago” area. I also know “Chicago” would be severly hurt without the rural too. we just need everyone else to look at Illinois as a whole, not a bunch of pieces.
- The Captain - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 2:35 pm:
Here’s the real reason why this proposal can’t happen, sooner or later we’re going to get around to invading Missouri. And when we do we don’t need some Forgottenstan getting in the way. Missouri, you’re on notice.
- Cheryl44 - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 2:48 pm:
Downstaters, I’m fine with you guys running around with guns in your pockets/purses/strapped to your leg/whatever. I just want the guns checked at the Cook County line. You can pick them up on your way out.
- Six Degrees of Separation - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 3:15 pm:
Cheryl44, maybe we could have the collection station staffed with Cook County gangbangers who will take extreme care to return the weapons to their rightful owners upon exit from our fine county.
- I Love Springfield - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 3:36 pm:
Taxpayers Federation of Illinois, you are highly encouraged to do the regional spending study. It is a study long-overdue. When you publish the data that shows downstate receives way more tax dollars per capita than it pays out, then I hope the downstate GOPs will step forward smartly pledging to refuse any more tax dollars which exceed what their district pays out. That will show they can go it alone without money from Chicagoland. And yes, downstate, when you say “Chicago” that includes the collar counties.
I have friends and family in all regions of the state, so I know well the folks on both sides of this question. While downstate conservatives love to repeat the maxim that they don’t need Chicago, the numbers will show their argument is clearly ludicrous.
- Anonymous - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 3:43 pm:
–I have friends and family in all regions of the state, so I know well the folks on both sides of this question–
So do I. I lived the first half of my life outside of Cook County in a number of Illinois communities.
Despite what some would tell you, not everyone Downstate hates Chicago. In fact, many end up moving there for work or because they want to.
And very few are silly enough to put too much thought into this stupid secession stunt.
- Peter Snarker - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 4:04 pm:
Indulge me with a bit of an analogy here…
… at age 18, or thereabouts, many a young adult tires of living under Mom and Dad’s roof and rules. Sure, Mom and Dad probably have a lifestyle that our hypothetical young adult will not be able to afford for literally decades in terms of living space, creature comforts and what-not, yet for some reason that 18 year old is just fine making that trade off. Perhaps that 18 year old is in for a “rude real world awakening” and crawls back to Mom and Dad. Or perhaps not. I’ve seen it go both ways.
And yes, I am very much aware that the above description of an 18 year old foregoing creature comforts to make it under his/her own conscience/etc is perhaps long outdated in the current economy/world.
I guess my point is simply that the Father/Mother can explain til they are blue in the face to that 18 year old the economic consequences of their decision and it isnt going to persuade that 18 year old.
And whose to say that 18 year old isnt just maybe right.
Look, there is nothing magic about the shape of Illinois. It was not pre-ordained by some higher power. It is lines on a map.
It’s certainly conceivable that a “break-up” could produce some positives and negatives for various areas of the state, many impacts we probably arent even really aware of.
All that said, yes, I am aware it is crazy-talk.
Peace.
- Lester Holt's Mustache - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 4:10 pm:
I lived in Chicago for my first 20 years before moving to Springfield, and I have never understood the downstate Napoleon complex either.
Is this the way it works in other places? Do people in Albany, NY hate people from New York City? Do people in Stone Mountain, GA want to make Atlanta become a state unto itself?
One would think people in rural Washington state would appreciate the tax dollars that Seattle sends their way, but maybe I am naive. Well, maybe not appreciate but show some indifference towards or at least not outright hostility.
- langhorne - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 4:52 pm:
willie sutton robbed banks because “thats where the money is”. suburban cook and the collars pay more than they (presumably) get back under some accounts, like the LRU study, because they have more money than other areas. but any such study usually falls short in valuing “public goods” such as having a well educated population and workforce, a cohesive society, good transportation and safety, etc. for ex., there are prob 5,000 kids from dupage at U of I receiving a first class and subsidized education.
it is a ridiculous proposition to think that every area will receive benefits equal to their contribution. that is not why we organize as a society.
- Boone Logan Square - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 4:53 pm:
It’d be fun to figure out who would be the senators and statewide officeholders for both the states of Illinois and Cook (or Cook/Collar) if the divorce actually happened. Would Durbin hang on? Would Kirk maintain enough downstate support? Might Kwame Raoul get to Washington? Would the Chicago media market now be prime advertising territory for races in three separate states (Cook, Illinois, & Indiana)?
Just on that last point, such a breakup might finally lead the Tribune Company out of bankruptcy due to sales on WGN-AM and Ch. 9. I look forward to the Trib posting an enthusiastic editorial supporting the split.
- maddem - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 5:55 pm:
I was driving through northern Wisconsin one summer a few years ago and was listening to a local radio station talk show in Wausau. They were complaining about all their tax dollars going to Milwaukee and Madison. So Wisconsin is Illinois upside down.
- Ben - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 8:14 pm:
@Lester Holt’s Mustache
Having spent most of the past few years in Western New York, I can tell you that New York State is pretty much the same. One of the local R state senators where I lived kept proposing a similar idea to have Upstate New York secede from the NYC area. In addition some Long Island state senator proposed having Long Island become its own state…politics in NY is pretty much the same as it is here.
- DuPage Dave - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 8:33 pm:
When I was younger I was perplexed by older folks who wanted to revisit the New Deal or the Spanish Civil War- ancient history to me. But now that I’m older I realize that some people never, ever, ever let go of the past.
These anti-Cook County, anti-Chicago bozos never let go. No matter the statistics cited by Rich (and others) they see the northeastern corner of the state as a leper colony. In my heart I know that it relates mostly to differences in demographics, but really, people- without Chicago you are Iowa or Indiana.
I say take the Regional Transportation Authority counties out as a separate state and to heck with you downstate gripers, whiners and losers!! We would be better off without you, frankly.
- Jack - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:15 pm:
Downstate might get more of the tax dollars, but it is not necessarily spent on what we think it should be spent on. That is determined by Chicago. For example, the increase in EIC might benefit downstate more, but had downstate had a say in it, they may have decided to instead use the money pay down debt, which in turn would have allowed lower tax rates, which then would have drawn industry with better paying jobs.
I suppose that its no different than small population states not liking the influence that high population states have on the Federal government. The Federal Contstitution fixed that somewhat by giving each state two Senators regardless of population. Perhaps the state could learn a lesson from that and equally distribute the Senators as one for every two counties instead of by population. The House districts could still determined by population. That would ensure a more equitable and representative government. But I doubt Chicago would ever vote for that.
- Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jan 3, 12 @ 11:58 pm:
===equally distribute the Senators as one for every two counties instead of by population. That would ensure a more equitable and representative government. ===
So, Cook gets a half a senator but Iroquois and Ford, combined population of about 43,000 would get one?
Some equity.
- Ben - Wednesday, Jan 4, 12 @ 12:41 am:
Jack, the Supreme Court ruled that apportioning state legislators the way you suggest was unconstitutional in Baker v. Carr http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_v._Carr
- wordslinger - Wednesday, Jan 4, 12 @ 8:20 am:
–Downstate might get more of the tax dollars, but it is not necessarily spent on what we think it should be spent on. That is determined by Chicago. –
You guys never get it.
First of all, you and yabbos like Mitchell don’t speak for “Downstate,” as much as you’d like to think you do. It’s not a monolithic mindset like you would like to pretend it is.
I’m from Downstate, and it’s quite, dare I say it, diverse, in its interests and views.
Secondly, “Chicago” is less than 25% of the state’s population. It also is not monolithic. It doesn’t “control” anything.
You’re not a victim, dude. Majority rules, and a majority is built through finding common ground and compromise. If you don’t like it, there are plenty of places in the world where it doesn’t.