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Mississippi? Really?
Monday, Jan 9, 2012 - Posted by Rich Miller * Illinois definitely has a real problem with net out-migration. No question about it, especially as our Baby Bommers retire to sunnier climes. But this statement by an Illinois Policy Institute staffer looks more like propaganda than analysis…
Who knew that Alabama and Mississippi were “beacons of prosperity”? It’s true that Alabama has a lower unemployment rate than Illinois. Even so, you still gotta live in Alabama. * But Mississippi? Its unemployment rate is higher than Illinois’ rate, at 10.5 perecent compared to 10 percent. Mississippi also has the lowest median income in the nation. Alabama isn’t too far behind. Its inclusion wouldn’t be because Mississippi is a so-called “right to work” state, would it? Obviously, Illinois can and should learn lessons from surrounding states. We’re not the best in anything, and the worst in too many categories. But if we want to engage in a rapid race to the bottom and lower our median income by $17K to match Mississippi’s, we’ll lose even if we “win.”
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- Jeff Wartman - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 8:50 am:
This type of hypocrisy has been around for a while…Scott Walker in Wisconsin comes to mind, telling people to migrate from Illinois to Wisconsin after the tax increase while failing to mention that even after the tax increase, Wisconsin still has a higher state personal income tax than Illinois.
It’s like they’re not even paying attention.
- wordslinger - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 8:53 am:
Anyone who would compare Illinois’ economy or opportunities with those of Mississippi or Alabama has a screw-loose problem, not a credibility problem.
- Jim - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:01 am:
I think the IPI’s statement that states like Mississippi haven not been “traditionally” known as “beacons of prosperity” is meant to point out the irony that some would leave Illinois for a state like that and others.
My impression is that the article makes the point that many people have given up on Illinois and are looking elsewhere for a better opportunity, even places like Mississippi. So we had best get our state in order if we are to compete successfully among the 50 states. But don’t hold your breath on that one. Further, knocking others who are doing better, like Wisconsin, doesn’t fix anything.
- Michelle Flaherty - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:02 am:
Illinois gained 400,000-plus people in the last decade. Where’s the support for this sudden exodus?
Apparently the IPI resolved to lose all connections with reality for 2012.
So far so good.
- Kasich Walker, Jr. - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:03 am:
Of course we want to flee Illinois.
There is a projected budget deficit of $507 million.
That’s about forty bucks ($507 million/12.8 million pop) each.
Bush or Obama can tell me stories about WMDs in Iraq or nuke weapons in Iran and I’ll send my kid to the other side of the globe to step around IEDs or enlist myself, but get real: forty bucks is forty bucks!
Cut medicaid! Cut medicare! Cut education & close public transit! Privatize everything!
- amalia - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:08 am:
right, Mississippi, where the schools are worse than in Alabama. the state where, like Iowa, one of only two states where no woman has ever been elected to Congress or as Governor. sounds like heaven, to a crazy person.
- wordslinger - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:10 am:
Jim, do yourself a favor, and don’t try to spin their lunacy for them.
Mississippi is the poorest state in the nation, with a per capita GDP ranked 51 (when including DC). Alabama is not much further ahead at 46. Illinois is 15.
Want to cite any facts that show us what “beacons of prosperity” they are and how “they’re winning the race for families and businesses. Freer markets improve everyday life significantly, and people respond to opportunities for growth.”
Anything at all?
The IPI hasn’t been home since New Year’s Eve, apparently.
- OneMan - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:12 am:
Some interesting stats on inflows and outflows of people here
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2008/12/17/u-s-migration-flows/
one interesting number, has one of the lower % of people who live here who were born in another state.
- PublicServant - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:14 am:
“The Illinois Policy Institute is a nonpartisan research organization dedicated to supporting free market principles and liberty-based public policy initiatives for a better Illinois. As a leading voice for economic liberty and government accountability, we engage policy makers, opinion leaders, and citizens on the state and local level.”
“Because the Institute is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit charitable organization, our supporters’ names are kept private”
It’s always interesting to hear what the Koch Brothers’ views on Illinois are.
- Jim - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:14 am:
Hey Wordslinger, Nisrepresenting what I wrote and villifying IPI doesn’t qualify as a serious response. It’s just more name-calling that intentionally ignores the issue.
- Ahoy - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:17 am:
Illinois is actually rated one of the top places to retire since we do not tax retirement income.
Of course, the IPI isn’t going to list that. Also, how does Alabama and Mississippi have more “liberty?” I think the IPI should try to define that a little bit instead of using the word so lightly.
- Esquire - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:18 am:
Just returned from a trip to the Southland. Taxes are lower, gasoline prices are lower, Texas does not have a state income tax.
Would I want to live there? As a retiree, perhaps, but not now. If you have money, you can live more comfortably and economically outside of Illinois. Of course, it did not help matters that Illinois had large increases in fees and taxes in January of 2011 and 2012.
The quality of life varies depending upon the state and locality, but the poorest places that I observed were in Louisiana, where every gas station also has a casino license for video games. Mississippi had the best Interstate Highway (I-55) in terms of road conditions. I knew I was back in Illinois when my car began to rattle because of the lousy road surfacing that was the norm once I crossed the border from Missouri.
I think that an interesting demographic issue for Illinois in years to come will be the number of retired persons who will leave the state. In the past, some of the moves were predicated upon the weather during the winter months, but, unless things improve in the future, some seniors will be departing to live in states where the cost of living is lower.
- wordslinger - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:22 am:
Jim, serious responses requires facts, which I provided.
I don’t think I vilified IPI — perhaps they’re happy go-lucky, friendly, screw-loose lunatics.
And if you’re not spinning for them, my apologies. But you can put some facts up, too.
- OneMan - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:31 am:
Ahoy,
That’s true of a lot of other states as well, Arizona comes to mind. My folks retired there, they looked at staying in Illinois but to be blunt, they were not in the mood to pay the property taxes that were required…
Even if I owned my home outright, that is 6K a year out to door.
- Esquire - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:38 am:
I know that the public schools may be less than satisfactory in many other states, but, to be blunt, most retirees are not especially interested in public education once their children have graduated and grown up. That may be short sighted, but it is true for many seniors.
- Birdseed - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:38 am:
Word, who called Mississippi and Alabama “beacons of prosperity”? I don’t think Jim has. Also, is GDP a major factor for many people when they decide to move to another state? The fishing is top notch in those two states……just sayin’.
- David Ormsby - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:40 am:
IPI has nothing to do analysis.
This GOP propaganda arm merely tortures statistics inside the cells of spreadsheets until they confess to whatever justifies the ideological witch burning of the day.
- RMWStanford - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:40 am:
Illinois has a lot of problems but I would see some figures that indicate we have lost a substantive number of jobs or population to Mississippi. There are a lot of economic areas we need to improve in and successful ideas that we need to copy. That being said in any nation when you have a fairly large gap in incomes and capital between areas you going to expect to see some move from high income high capital area to the low income low capital area.
- Wensicia - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:44 am:
Yes, let’s pack up and move to Alabama. I hear there are great opportunities in tomato harvesting.
- walkinfool - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:49 am:
The IPI needs new management if it is to meet its own stated mission. Almost everything they report is obviously skewed or edited to support a pre-determined conclusion, and often their statements or analyses are easily refuted by the most public and easily found data. Just one example is their constant refrain that people and companies are moving to other states due to high Illinois taxes, when the states they are moving to have still higher taxes, which is never mentioned.
It’s a shame, and they ought to do better, even if they are nothing but an ideological mouthpiece of a national political effort. I would like to be able to use them as a resource once in a while.
- Secret Square - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 9:57 am:
“My impression is that the article makes the point that many people have given up on Illinois and are looking elsewhere for a better opportunity, even places like Mississippi.”
I would agree with that assessment. No one is arguing that Mississippi is some kind of perfect economic paradise. They do, however, have some job opportunities available that were not there years ago, due to the casino industry, post-Katrina reconstruction, and other factors. It’s quite possible that SOME people have found good jobs in Mississippi that they couldn’t find in Illinois. That does NOT mean everyone will, of course.
- Responsa - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 10:04 am:
I recently read an excellent book titled “The Warmth of other Suns” which documents the great migration of Black Americans from the rural Jim Crow South to seek safety and opportunities in the big northern cities and environs in the thirties forties and fifties. The author researched and uses real family histories to document the inflow by rail to Chicago, L.A. Boston, NYC., etc. She brings alive the struggles (and successes) of these urban pioneers.
In the wake of the book’s publication I saw several newspaper articles which brought to light a sort of reverse migration that is taking place right now from those same cities back into the Southland. (especially Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and Georgia.) For many Black families the South is still considered “home” and they have kept close ties to distant relatives in their ancestral areas and maintained traditions through generations. Apparently for many– especially middle class and middle-aged African Americans going back– reuniting with family, enjoying the lower cost of living, the climate, the southern food, and (ironically) relative freedom from crime which they can find in some of the more rural areas of the South is a draw.
This is an aspect that should be kept in mind when questioning “why anybody in their right mind would move to Alabama.” It is also likely at least a factor in the loss of Black Chicagoans as shown in the recent census.
As a history buff I cannot recommend the book highly enough, by the way.
- Esquire - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 10:06 am:
I would not rate Mississippi with paradise, but there are numerous other states that Illinois no longer seem competitive with. Decades ago, everybody flocked to Chicago or Illinois because the city and the region had a reputation as being a economic powerhouse were good jobs were plentiful. How many recent college graduates want to relocate to Illinois? How many people choose to stay in Illinois after retirement? For all of the good things that recommend Chicago and Illinois, there was a time in the not too distant past when things were better. The Illinois economy was struggling even before the real estate market crashed. Companies that I used to do business with have relocated elsewhere. A few simply moved to neighboring states.
Chicago and Springfield have been grossly mismanaged for decades and there is no quick and painless fix for the mistakes that have been made.
- Kasich Walker, Jr. - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 10:08 am:
The University of Mississippi at Oxford has a government approved grow operation.
Maybe IPI doesn’t see this exodus ending until Illinois lobbies Feds for and gets hundreds more operations than Mississippi and the IL GA backs recreational use.
http://www.research.olemiss.edu/ChangeAgents/2009/FindingCuresForKillers
http://cannabisasmedicine.com/story/university-mississippi-marijuana-research-farm
- 3rd Generation Chicago Native - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 10:10 am:
Illinois just received the worst credit rating of all the states. I don’t know how much room we have to compare.
- publius - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 10:15 am:
When i ran a company in chicago we employed a large number of minority workers. many of the blacks were the sons and daughters of people who came north from mississippi for jobs in the forties and fifties/ many of the parents returned to mississippi and now the youmger generation is reaching retirement age and going back “home”. there is family there, a quieter life. less crime and your retirement money goes farther/
- wordslinger - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 10:21 am:
3G, you’re confusing the state’s budget problems with the economic opportunities available to residents of the state.
Because of their state budgets, Illinois and California have the lowest ratings in the country. Nebraska and Wyoming are AAA.
Where do more people have a better chance to make a decent buck?
- Anonymous - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 10:29 am:
Absolute popycock.
Site Survey Magazine places Illinois very favorably in its ranking of places to set up a business. Where is Mississippi on that list? Hmm?
Illinois has so many things going for it: high speed rail, clean coal, smart grid…these are the investments we are making now that will carry Illinois forward economically for decades to come.
- amalia - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 10:55 am:
the point about schools is not that retirees are sending grandchildren to them, but that it means a great deal to a local economy. without an educated workforce the economy suffers. the workforce in Mississippi and Alabama do not benefit from the education system in those states.
- Cheryl44 - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 11:04 am:
~How many recent college graduates want to relocate to Illinois?~
Apparently you haven’t been to the north side of Chicago in some years. My favorite burger joint is now the official place to watch the Jets for displaced New Yorkers. There are bars that cater to fans of specific college teams from all over the country. Now who would be in the bar the Iowa State games if these people didn’t come from there?
- wordslinger - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 11:08 am:
~How many recent college graduates want to relocate to Illinois?~
Seriously? Is there some alternative universe we’re talking about?
- Shock & Awww(e) - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 11:21 am:
Despite the Bears terrible finish to this season, I’d still rather have the opportunity to watch them live (and the Bulls, Hawks, White Sox, etc.) than via satellite from Tuscaloosa.
And that’s all I have to say about that.
- Shock & Awww(e) - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 11:23 am:
Although Alabama/Mississippi can take the Cubbies
- Anyone Remember? - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 11:30 am:
As an immigrant to Illinois (and the Midwest, for that matter), the problem with the “business climate” is: “the climate” … .
American is a nation of snow / cold avoiders. If the climate dictates a local government be semi-competent at snow removal, people will flee that region. The regions that are growing, generally, are places were extreme weather is heat / humidity, not cold / snow and ice.
And until Rockford winters resemble winters in Cairo, IL, this will continue.
- Soccertease - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 11:44 am:
Have friends that retired and moved to the Biloxi, Mississippi area-they love it there
- Cheswick - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 11:58 am:
I do wish think tanks would stick to thinking and leave the editorializing to the editorialists.
- PublicServant - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 12:16 pm:
Just because they call themselves a think tank doesn’t mean they’re a think tank…ya think?
- John A Logan - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 12:23 pm:
In the political world, when your explaining your losing. Having to explain why Illinois is better than Mississippi tells me the battle here in Illinois for non laughing stock status has been lost.
- Rich Miller - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 12:25 pm:
===Having to explain why Illinois is better than Mississippi tells me===
Sigh.
My point was it ought to be self evident. Try sticking to reality, please.
- Rich Miller - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 12:26 pm:
Also, this isn’t a political campaign. But if you’d like to run a political campaign declaring Mississippi’s inherent superiority, please be my guest. I’d like to cover that one. Methinks you’d be the person explaining yourself.
- D.P. Gumby - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 12:29 pm:
The problem w/ moving to the warmer climate on the US is that it’s in the Southern States. How long before we can buy condos in Cuba?
- wordslinger - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 12:29 pm:
–Having to explain why Illinois is better than Mississippi tells me the battle here in Illinois for non laughing stock status has been lost. –
Or, you just use a few facts to point out what laughingstocks the people who are making the argument are.
- shore - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 12:43 pm:
what success mississippi has had over the last few years has been the connections and willpower of their governor, haley barbour who might be the most connected man in republican politics right now. He’s kind of like their rahm in the sense that because of his career as an operative he has the ability to make things happen. This is a unique situation and he has a unique set of skills that aren’t really reflective of any great longterm vision the state has.
We’ll see in 4 years after some country bumpkin gets into office in mississippi if anyone in the country notices anything positive they maybe doing.
- Yellow Dog Democrat - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 12:43 pm:
Federal Poverty Rates:
Mississippi - 22%
Alabama - 18%
And the rest of the “Bible Belt”:
Arkansas - 18%
Texas - 17%
Georgia - 17%
Florida - 15%
And Illinois? 13.3%
BTW, the national average is 14.3%
All data from the US Census Bureau.
To quote Rich Miller: “Bite me.”
- Fed up - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 12:57 pm:
I have no doubt that Illinois is currently a better place to do business and live than Mississippi or Alabama. However I do believe we are losing that advantage. Weather is a part we cannot control. As far as education does anyone really believe Chicago has better neighborhood public school than those states. Although I am encouraged that we are finally tackling the education problem in Illinois. Mississippi and Alabama are both attracting new business that won’t come to Illinois because of union rules and workers comp system. Illinois could look at some of the things that those states offer and try and copy them such as gambling and golf. But I don’t realistically believe that we want to get into a race to the bottom to compete with Mississippi or Alabama.
- steve schnorf - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 1:52 pm:
And (statistically) your IQ goes down when you move there, as do those of your kids, their teachers, your employees, and your customers.
- Secret Square - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 1:52 pm:
“The regions that are growing, generally, are places were extreme weather is heat / humidity, not cold / snow and ice.”
That probably would not have happened except for two things: air conditioning and access to fresh water from aquifers, pipelines or dams.
- Rich Miller - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 1:53 pm:
===That probably would not have happened except for two things: air conditioning and access to fresh water from aquifers, pipelines or dams.===
And all that Yankee tax money to build their roads, bridges, dams, etc.
- Esquire - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 2:10 pm:
I will buy the “air conditioning” argument. At the close of World War II, Phoenix was the largest city in Arizona with a population of about 50,000. Today, there are 2 million out there. Maybe the water will run out someday. A former Chicagoan residing near Yuma told me about the increase in humidity there. It was caused by the number of swimming pools that had been built.
- wordslinger - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 2:14 pm:
===That probably would not have happened except for two things: air conditioning and access to fresh water from aquifers, pipelines or dams.===
And all that Yankee tax money to build their roads, bridges, dams, etc. –
Gee, I thought they were all rugged individualists who did it all by themselves without Uncle Sam all over their backs.
The facts of the matter are it was Yankee money that opened up the Southwest and Pacific Coast to explosive post-war growth, and Yankee money and Yankee insistence on federal Civil Rights that dragged the old Confederacy into the 20th Century (they’ll get to the 21st, eventually).
It’s called building a nation. You can look it up.
- reformer - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 2:28 pm:
Mississippi has the nation’s highest murder rate. Some paradise.
- reformer - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 2:47 pm:
Mississippi also have the nation’s widest income inequality. Maybe that’s why our right-wing friends like the state. Rick Santorum recently said, “I’m for income inequality.”
- Stooges - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 2:50 pm:
I hate going to any state where I’m the smartest guy there.
- Stooges - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 2:51 pm:
I’ve vacationed in Alabama quite a few times. The state flower is the tattoo and the state odor is B.O. If you talk too fast all you get is a blank stare.
- Anyone Remember? - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 3:00 pm:
While Yankees may have financed and opened up the South, the Southwest and West Coast were opened up by the military expansion in WW II. Lest you think otherwise, look how many West Coast military installations got “BRAC’ed” and what happened to the military aircraft industry in Southern California after the Cold War ended / the USSR turned off the lights.
- Rich Miller - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 3:01 pm:
===were opened up by the military expansion in WW II===
Even so, still paid for with Yankee tax dollars.
- wordslinger - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 3:13 pm:
–the Southwest and West Coast were opened up by the military expansion in WW II.–
There was an element of that, of course, but it was the interstates, water projects, jet engines (development courtesy of the Pentagon), other infrastructure and Mr. Carrier’s cool invention that allowed for the explosion.
Cally’s population in 1950 was 10.6 million. Now it’s 38 million.
Arizona’s population in 1950 was 750,000. Now it’s 6.4 million.
- Going nuclear - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 4:01 pm:
And don’t forget who was responsible for damming rivers, forming man-made lakes, etc. in order to help produce electricity for much of the South: Tennessee Valley Authority.
- Anyone Remember? - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 4:32 pm:
===Yankee===
After going to school at Syracuse, to me “Yankee” is the 6 New England States - NY / PA / NJ are the “Northeast” and west of Pittsburg is “the Midwest” … suppose only the Sons of Confederate Veterans would regard an Iowa Hawkeye a “Yankee” … .
- SO IL M - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 5:19 pm:
The only problem with Mississippi that I have seen is how long it takes to get from Tunica down to the Gulf Coast.
- zatoichi - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 5:51 pm:
Go live in other states for several years. Not just snowbirding or a months vacation. They all have their specific issues good and bad. No income tax but high fees for personal property. Others have taxes on everything. Roads are great with long driving distances. Weather is warm all year while the water table has dropped 50%. That huge calcium white ring at Hoover Dam/lake Mead? Not from an abundance of water. Schools as a whole are pretty decent everywhere as long as parents stay involved. Politicians are the same nationwide. You will find clones of the major Illinois players in every state with the same complaints in the local papers. I was raised in Illinois and am glad that work has brought me back. It ain’t great, but I like it.
- ArchPundit - Monday, Jan 9, 12 @ 8:27 pm:
Mississippi is the state everyone looks to when they want to excuse their bad numbers. “Hey, we’re still better than Mississippi!”
It’s a quite impressive feat to run a 3rd world economy in one of the most developed economies on earth and for that, they do deserve some credit for innovation. That the innovation is good only when compared to the 19th century is kind of a problem to people anywhere else.
Mississippi is usually in a race with New Mexico to receive the most dollars back from the federal government in comparison to dollars generated with both at about a 2 to 1 clip. Illinois gets less money back than it generates.
If I were the geniuses at the Illinois Policy Institute I might be talking about getting states off their cycle of dependency on federal dollars and start with Mississippi and the other red states. The South won Civil War–we keep subsidizing them to this day.
- wordslinger - Tuesday, Jan 10, 12 @ 9:10 am:
–Mississippi is usually in a race with New Mexico to receive the most dollars back from the federal government in comparison to dollars generated with both at about a 2 to 1 clip. Illinois gets less money back than it generates. –
Don’t forget Alaska. Those rugged individualists couldn’t survive up there except for the money we send them.
Year in, year out, Illinois and the Midwest taxpayers send much more money to Washington then we get back. Must be our strong work ethic and sense of community.
The citizens with their hands out are the anti-government types in the Old Confederacy, Alaska, the Southwest and Border States like Kentucky and Maryland.
Hit the google if you don’t believe it.
- wordslinger - Tuesday, Jan 10, 12 @ 9:37 am:
–“Northeast” and west of Pittsburg is “the Midwest” … suppose only the Sons of Confederate Veterans would regard an Iowa Hawkeye a “Yankee” … .
They’d be right. By capita, Iowa sent more volunteers down south than any other state.
I used to live a short walk from old Camp McCellan in East Davenport across from Rock Island. That’s where volunteers from Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Illinois mustered before being sent down the river in barges to fix some wagons with Grant and Sherman.
It’s useful to remember where you came from, in these times.
- Anyone Remember? - Tuesday, Jan 10, 12 @ 11:55 am:
Word -
To each their own. To me, a Yankee is someone who “hasn’t had a drink of watah since Batista left Cuber” or prefers snacks from “Pepperidge Faahhhm” … .
- wishbone - Tuesday, Jan 10, 12 @ 11:35 pm:
“How many people choose to stay in Illinois after retirement?”
Me for one. I am actually somewhat ashamed of the fact that I pay so little state income tax since my pension is tax free.