45 Comments - Captain Illini - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 9:35 am: It is an irony that the purported “Party of the Envirnonment” is also the nemisis of the IDNR. By far, Republican administrations have provided critical funding for the IDNR, and Conservation before that…not without cuts, but at levels that were able to sustain the agency without tapping other funds. The overall issue seems to be what to do in the long term. Illinois has a rich history of this debate on entrance fees, with the legislature saying that citizens already pay with their taxes…but if GR continues to be reduced and not replaced, that argument goes out the door. Stop the sweeps, stop the erosion of GR and maybe IDNR can survive, however, at some point in time the big question of taking care of Illinois’ natural resource infrastructure must be answered, and Misssouri’s dedicated funding stream apart from legislative tampering is a model to consider. Tough times…but after a forest fire, there emerges new growth and new beginnings. - boo - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 9:37 am: Most other states charge entry fees to state parks, or offer annual passes. This way the people who use the parks, including out-of-state tourists, pay for their use of the parks. Allowing free access is great, if the state can afford it. It can’t, so let the people who use the service pay for it. - Rich Miller - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 9:40 am: boo, as the full article linked to above noted, IDNR scrapped the entrance fee idea because many state parks have multiple entrances. Entrance fees would’ve simply been too costly to execute. - vole - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 9:45 am: The agency is so badly damaged that a thorough review of mission and structure are needed before alternate funding measures are approved by the legislature. - Small Town Liberal - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 9:45 am: - boo, as the full article linked to above noted, IDNR scrapped the entrance fee idea because many state parks have multiple entrances. Entrance fees would’ve simply been too costly to execute. - What about a membership sticker or something? Might not be able to catch everyone coming in without one, but with those who comply and those who get caught it could raise some revenue. - Downstate - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 9:50 am: As an aside, an office mate went camping in Central Illinois this weekend. The state run campground was only 20% full. Normally, this time of the year, the park would have been at full capacity. Probably a reflection of the economy - but also the fried observed that camping looks to becoming a “older person’s” activity. - Cindy Lou - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 9:50 am: Anyone who did not see this coming towards DNR over the last 10 yrs, obviously were not only paying no attention but totally stubbed their noses at the problem. The cry of ‘the sky is falling’ is coming in a bit late. - x ace - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 9:55 am: Both Political Parties may have misplaced spending priorities over the year by putting the fancy, expensive, big green game warden trucks on the road, filled with well paid strangely trained, overzealous persons,driving lots of miles, to write cheap, rather meaningless tickets while the preservation of our Parks and Recreation Resources got Neglected year after year. Shift the Budget from law enforcement to Parks. - Bill - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 9:57 am: Fedup, If you put aside your bitterness and parochialism for a minute you might see that Cook and the collars, that provide over 2/3 of all state revenue, are bearing the major brunt of all of these budget cuts and that it is republicans and downstaters that are obstructing any proposed solutions. As far as revenue expenditures are concerned, IDNR should be down toward the bottom of the priority list. - Judgment Day - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 9:58 am: Is this another game by the GA to where they add a general fee increase that is ’supposed’ to be a dedicated fee for funding IL parks, and then the Senate Democrats turn around and make another ’sweep’ of all the special funds, loot the balances in all the special funds (including the new license plate fees), and IDNR is back in the same hole as before? Sorry, been ‘played’ in that game already this year. Tell the Republicans to pass on the ‘offer’. It’s one thing to pay an involuntary “Use” tax (an add on license plate fee) - it’s a whole different issue to pay an involuntary “Use” tax when the money doesn’t end up for it’s intended purpose. IMO, the IL GA credibility on this issue is somewhat lower than the Titanic’s bow (forward) section. - Leave a Light on George - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 9:59 am: Guess x ace got caught without his fishing license eh? - RNUG - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 9:59 am: The parks system, etc. used to be one of Illinois unappreciated jewels. I was constantly reminded of this as I traveled to other states where I had to pay various fees to use their facilities. This state needs to get it’s act together again. Maybe the solution would be to transfer all the facilities into a trust and separate trust fund type organization, and fund it with a combination of public and private funds. There are people out there who would be willing to help such an organization but they won’t today because any donated funds could be swept out and used for unintended purposes. While a universal license plate fee would be the simplest method of funding, there are successful examples of targeted funding by various hunting groups, etc. (but those groups are upset over the funds sweeps). If there was such a trust, annual stickers / “memberships” could be sold on a voluntary basis, which would bypass the enforcement issue. - muon - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 10:03 am: The majority of states have figured out how to operate with entry fees, and many of their parks have multiple entrances. IDNR should be able to figure it out as well. It might take time to work on the logistics, but this is exactly what they should do if they are looking for dedicated revenue. - vole - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 10:04 am: “Entrance fees would’ve simply been too costly to execute.” Out of state users will be charged fees. So that will have to be executed. Also, many of the parks do charge fees for camping so there is a system in place that could be applied to the entire parks. Fees could be applied to some of the parks that have very high usage. There is so little going on at some of the less used parks that a user fee is probably not justified. - Fed up - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 10:04 am: Bill, These problems have been allowed to fester for 10 years of complete Dem control. The GOP is of no consequence in Illinois. All five of those supposed leaders are from Cook co and they didn’t and still don’t give a damn about anything that doesn’t further their complete control of the state. - east central - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 10:07 am: An approach common in other states is to use self-service pay stations at all but the busiest portals. The busiest portals are staffed only during heavy traffic periods. Enforcement is done via tickets if your vehicle is not displaying a day-use slip or an annual sticker. Typically annual stickers differ in price depending upon whether your vehicle has in-state license plates. For example, WI charges $25 for in-State and $35 for out-of-State for an annual sticker for a vehicle, with reduced rates for seniors. Apparently this combination works well enough that it is done in many other states, as well as in some national forests and campgrounds. - Blue Grass - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 10:07 am: It was my impression that the world class hunting complex built by DNR under Brunsvold was a consistent drain on the budget helping to starve other State Park’s funding. Does anyone know if the World Shooting and Recreational Complex breaks even in terms of revenue? - OneMan - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 10:14 am: Bill… Wow, are you saying state revenues should be spent where state revenues come from? I doubt that, but that is a bit how it reads. But, outside of that not sure where you are getting that IDNR should be at the bottom of the list? Shouldn’t the parks and open space be something government is involved in? Even outside of state parks DNR does work that helps communities (including urban areas) manage wildlife populations. For example deer culling in Cook and the collars http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-11-24/news/ct-x-n-deer-culling-20101124_1_deer-management-deer-population-deer-herds With the extensive forest preserve system as well as a lack of predators in urban areas the deer population continues to grow in your neck of the woods, creating real risks to drivers and others. Also deer wasting disease is a real risk in Northern Illinois (ironically there were Federal funds that would have covered the OT needed to help with that a few years ago but a former governor you like didn’t want the state to ask for the money) is also a real risk in urban areas (greater deer density so easier to spread) also as I understand it, the disease kind of makes deer stupid so more likely to jump in front of your car. Also DNR is the state’s mining regulator, Zombie Mother Jones will arise and hunt you down if you don’t think protecting the states miners as well as it’s resources from mining operations. Also it administers the state water supply in the Carlyle, Shelbyville, Rend and Kinkaid reservoir. But I guess they can go suck it since they don’t live in the collar counties. - vole - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 10:18 am: Blue Grass, the WSSComplex did initially cost $50,000,000. I don’t know what it returns in revenue. I am still baffled that promoting shooting sports is seen as an essential mission of the DNR especially when its more integral missions like ecological restoration have been so decimated. - Cindy Lou - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 10:20 am: Camping fees do not stay with the parks, vole. Muon, you’d really have to visit entire outlying sites to understand how some of these sites are laid out…we’re not talking a 1/2 dozen entrance points, some have easy access by merely driving down the road with no ‘entrance’. Also workers remaining on site properties on any fulltime basis have no authority to approach a biker, hiker, fisher ect. Not to mention that the worker is already doing a fulltime necessary work assignment and at that not enough staff or hours in a day to accomplish the presentn those needs of a site. The license plate idea was likely the best shot DNR has of obtaining fees from the casual visiting public on any regular basis. - Leave a Light on George - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 10:21 am: “It was my impression that the world class hunting complex built by DNR under Brunsvold was a consistent drain on the budget helping to starve other State Park’s funding. Does anyone know if the World Shooting and Recreational Complex breaks even in terms of revenue?” Sure has been (and remains) an employment boom for assistant, associate, deputy directors under the dems. It was however Brent Manning and the R’s who finalized the deal for the shooting complex. - Bill - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 10:39 am: One Man, Chill a little. I was responding to fedup’s continual harping about Cook County. In fact, there would be revenue for all that and for what I consider the state’s higher priorities if Republican’s did not obstruct the original plan to bond out the state’s debt and pay the bonds off with the dedicated portion of the income tax increase. Instead, we take health care from seniors and children, further decimate DCFS, screw our employees, and yes, cut more from the beloved DNR. There is too much talk about spending and not enough about revenue. I just can’t get too worked up about state parks when seniors are losing their medicine. The same goofs who are constantly yelling cut, cut, cut have a conniption fit if anyone even hints about cutting state fair funding or the FFA. - CircularFiringSquad - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 10:42 am: “the Republicans said, and now the Democrats wanted to increase fees to solve the problem of their own making…” Who are the GOPies kidding…they served up NoTaxBill as their candidate…Our very talented Comptroller …and, of course, another Ryan. With that as the legacy they get just as much credit as any Dem — no doubt. Wasn’t just a few years ago when that babbling oaf, Bill Black, and ChumpyChappin Rose were staging mass pilgramages to save our state parks? They found state parks more important than schools. In fact some said we should move all the kids to the parks to get better funding. what happen? We think they thought this plan would work so better vote “no” Very dumb….dumber than the Madigan family attack letters./…if that is possible Fire, Aim, Ready! - Kerfuffle - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 10:44 am: Shore – Geo Karis made awesome baklava! - wishbone - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 10:45 am: How about we scrap the totally unnecessary front license plate. That should save a few bucks. The one for my Miata has been in my trunk since I bought the car and no one seems to care. - wishbone - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 10:55 am: As far as collecting fees at parks, it is easy. You put in a few automated collection points at parking lots that take credit cards (ala the Chicago parking system). You do a few random checks a day for receipts and write a few tickets. Ninety nine percent of people comply voluntarily. It ain’t rocket science, but this is Illinois. - Cindy Lou - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 11:03 am: wishbone, have you ever visited the rural parts of Illinois? If not, let me clue you in on how the public helps themselves to the fencing material and anything else they find that might prove usable. How long do you think this automated collection point would last? The cost of setting it up and checking it? Are you going to tell me next we could put vid cams on each one? - muon - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 11:06 am: Cindy Lou, I am aware that many of the DNR’s facilities are not well arranged for a traditional gate at a clearly marked entry. A look at our neighboring states shows a number of different models from admission gates to purchased stickers at a visitors center or other central location. Some states combine different options for different parks in their systems. My point is that the DNR could find a model that fits best and determine how much time and money it would take to implement it. They certainly should have had some idea how it would work when the House was voting on the entrance fee bill this spring. - Cindy Lou - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 11:20 am: Except with that idea, muon, you’re forgetting visitors centers are not always open due to lack of staff. Central point? Who will direct these visitors to the point and who will staff the point, the cost of running the point? Seriously, all of these things have been considered. I think if you review other states/parks and methods you’ll find the ones who may be successful in such attempts did not let their sites/staff become to the point Illinois is now facing. Any of these ideas take expense and time to perhaps be successful…but that’s the point, we’re out of time now. - RNUG - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 11:27 am: yes, we’re out of time so it’s time to implement the 80/20 rule. Put up signs w/voluntary drop boxes (and a tear-off tab to show you paid) with envelopes. Yes, I realize some of the boxes will get vandalized / robbed. But collections shouldn’t be a big issue; most parks have a ranger who closes up the parks every evening anyway. Have the camping hosts collect a park fee also if the camper doesn’t have the tear off tab. Same for other park activities where there is already a person collecting a fee, such as a guided tour, or pavilion rental, or whatever. Let the rest of it slide because you should get abut 80% of possible revenue with 20% or less of the effort. - vole - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 11:41 am: One of the sticking points on the state park user fee was the stink raised by hunters and fishermen who thought they had already paid their fair share of DNR costs by purchasing hunting and fishing licenses. They demanded some kind of discount on the park user fees in return for their “investment” which the birders and other users were freeloading on. The WI system is quite workable and is accepted by the public that actually uses the parks: http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/parks/admission.html - Irish - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 11:46 am: First of all the answer to does the World Shooting Complex break even? The answer is no. Operating dollars are taken out of the GRF to keep it running. I question why DNR is giving out millions in grants when there is no money for Parks? Why did the Gov. Giver 10 million to clean up the Chicago River this year. Couldn’t that have waited a year, or two? What is being spent on the Millenium reserve? or the Burnham reserve or whatever the latest huge project being pushed is being called? The large green space in Chicago that is a rewrite of a project that was scrapped years ago. Why are we starting that when we are talking about closing other parks? Why was a grant given by the Governor to local communities and park districts for $50 million to upgrade and repair their deteriotating facilities when buildings in Parks are falling down? Why is CMS charging the Department hundreds of thousands of dollars to rent buildings that IDNR already owns? Why is the Department that manages the sites that draw in a majority of tourists and therefore boost the economy of hundreds of towns and communities and ultimately the state; also one of the most severely cut Departments in this years budget? The Governor called for a 9.4 percent cut for all agencies. The monolithic money vacuum CMS got a 2.89% increase in spite of being the black hole that sucks all the money from all the other agencies. IDNR got cut 13%+. - wishbone - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 11:50 am: “wishbone, have you ever visited the rural parts of Illinois?” Yeah Cindy, even though my dad was from bloody Williamson County I keep forgetting how things are down there. On the other hand a system that survives in the wilds of Chicago must be pretty robust. - Demoralized - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 12:21 pm: ==I watched the Senate debate that night and the Republicans made a good point. The Democrats under the last two governors have, for years, short-changed IDNR. Their budget choices led to these problems, the Republicans said, and now the Democrats wanted to increase fees to solve the problem of their own making. == Baloney!!! I am sick and tired of this argument by the Republicans. They throw their hands in the air, blame the Democrats for creating the problem, and then say we aren’t going to support anything that might help solve the problem. They are absolutely pathetic. This was a good idea (though I though fees were better). Do we want state parks or an IDNR anymore? Somebody better make that decision soon because the agency, as it stands now, is near the end of it’s effective useful life. They aren’t performing their core mission any longer, let alone any “extras.” I don’t think that argument from the Republicans holds any weight. I think it’s just another one of their cop-outs and shows why they continue to be in the minority. They have no ideas and offer no solutions. And then they whine like babies when they are not allowed to participate. Well boo hoo. Either participate or get out of the way. I’m tired of all of it already. - vole - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 12:45 pm: “How can Wisconsin add amenities when other states are closing parks? Schuller pointed to the state’s longtime user fees, which provide a stable funding source and help insulate the parks system from the ups and downs of state budgets. (Several states have no entrance fees, including Iowa. Wisconsin began charging for admittance in 1961 — $2 a year.) Park fees and other park revenue now make up about 74 percent of the parks system budget, with 21 percent coming from state general funds. The state’s share continues to drop over time.” Source:http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/article_86002a68-af28-11e0-be52-001cc4c002e0.html The IL House had moved on a similar proposal to start a Park fee system. Then toward the end of the session, a shell game ensued, dropping the fee system for a vehicle registration fee add on. The legislature needs to revisit this as well as several other proposals in the funding bill. There is some stuff in there that needs amending or removing like annual stickers for canoes, kayaks, and INNERTUBES! No one was reading the freaking bill! Read more: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/article_86002a68-af28-11e0-be52-001cc4c002e0.html#ixzz1yAS7bVHv - Responsa - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 12:56 pm: ==Do we want state parks or an IDNR anymore?== Yes we do. There are many retirees and middle/working class Illinois residents whose children are past school age who get to see a personal return from their tax dollars via their use of state parks and natural resource recreation areas and campgrounds. Through the grace of God they do not need Medicaid or Snap or mental health facility benefits, etc. which they understand to be critically important and necessary. But surely those who pay taxes all deserve to use the great beautiful and wild spaces in this state which have already been set aside for the appreciation of nature. That is a form of “medicine” too. - Skirmisher - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 1:47 pm: First of all, I have to object to Bill’s notion that the state park system should be a low prioirity in comparison to providing subsidies for seniors and kiddies. Maintaining state parks and natural resources has been a core function of state government since the dawn of the 20th century. Paying medical bills, etc. for a portion of the public is a relatively new state government innovation, and obviously a very expensive innovation at that. Your priorities, for better or worse, are the core of the problem. The urban population sees no benefit in the preservation of natural resources, historic sites, state parks, etc. and has other ideas of how state money ought to be spent (Handouts, mostly). Since the urbanites have for a number of years had a tight grip on the government, agencies such as IDNR and IHPA have taken a beating and will continue to take a beating, or disappear altogether. The Democrats are the most blatantly indifferent to the park system (Outside of Cook County, of-course) but in truth IDNR and IHPA took a pretty good gutting under the less than enlightened hands of Republican leadership when they had control. - Skirmisher - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 2:01 pm: Next Point: No one is going to pay fees to enter Illinois state parks until those parks rise to the standards of places such as Indiana and Michigan, where you actually get a good value for your money. As it is, no one wants to camp in Illinois parks because they are in a horrid state of neglect. The last time I camped in an Illinois park it was a Ft. Massac, a park that sits near I-24 and is an ideal location to capture traveling tourists. The place ought to be kept as a showcase faciltiy. Unfortunately, the restrooms in the campground were filthy, clearly not having been cleaned in weeks, perhaps months. The showers didn’t work. The lights were entirely unfunctional in the men’s side, with the unscreened door propped open to admit light from the parking lot at night (Along with a host of bugs). When we visited the Visitor’s Center, there was no toilet paper, and so the toilets were plugged from visitors using paper towels instead. When we raised hell with the staff we were told that they were forbidden to purchase things like light bulbs and toilet paper. These things were supposed to come from CMS and CMS had not reponded to their pleas for these supplies. So much for Illinois parks. Someone said that the Illinois parks had only about a 20% occupancy?? Can you imagine why??? Go over to Indiana and try to get a campsite in a well managed park like Turkey Run this next weekend. Good luck. Or go to any Michigan park and try it. Same story. Illinois parks have been driven into the ground by a political system that is incompetent and idifferent and it is just going to get worse, whichever party is in control. - Champaign - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 2:28 pm: Seems to me the votes are there. Could it move out of the Senate in veto or a special session if so? - Fed up - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 2:57 pm: Demoralized Baloney!!! I am sick and tired of this argument by the Republicans. They throw their hands in the air, blame the Democrats for creating the problem, and then say we aren’t going to support anything that might help solve the problem. Face it the GOP is correct the Dems caused this problem. I agree the GOP is useless but they are correct in pointing out what a joke the cook co Dems are and how they are destroying Illinois through incompetence - TCB - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 3:50 pm: =Seems to me the votes are there. Could it move out of the Senate in veto or a special session if so?= What makes you think that? It now requires a 3/5ths vote…..This bill isn’t going anywhere until January 1 at the earliest. - Responsa - Monday, Jun 18, 12 @ 4:31 pm: Skirmisher– Your description of the condition of Ft. Massac park and other campgrounds in IL looks to be a good story/expose (with pictures) for any one of the state’s larger newspapers to headline. Are there any intrepid reporters out there reading this thread? - Northern Girl - Tuesday, Jun 19, 12 @ 1:37 am: Entrance fees would be difficult to “police” by overworked, bare-bones staff. DNR park employees are being expected to do the impossible already. I heard that the Rockford Park District budget for Rockford parks is larger than DNR’s budget for the entire state’s parks. That says it all to me. Bring the bill back this summer and pass the license plate fees with legislative assurances against sweeping these funds. It is simply unconscionable what has happened to DNR. The employees deserve a lot of credit for trying to hold down the forts in a cycle of legislative and administrative ineptitude. There sure doesn’t seem to be a huge brain trust in the Springfield DNR administration these days to try to solve their problems. Urban legislators don’t get it about parks. Kudos to Rep. Mautino for trying to correct a terrible situation that has been a decade in the making. Some of these parks don’t even have anyone working there on a permanent basis. Can’t we get anything right in this state? - vole - Tuesday, Jun 19, 12 @ 7:52 am: “The employees deserve a lot of credit for trying to hold down the forts in a cycle of legislative and administrative ineptitude.” I agree with the dismal financial condition and with the general performance of most employees. However, performance audits of all DNR employees are needed to help weed out the under performers. The state of maintenance at Ft. Massac described earlier can not be attributed only to short funds. I have heard through the grapevine that some employees, patronage hires in particular, are simply not performing up to snuff. This goes from bottom to top. This only drags down the morale of more conscientious staffers. Like a said earlier, a top to bottom review of the agency, its mission and structure, is needed. - Kevin Highland - Tuesday, Jun 19, 12 @ 3:39 pm: “and staff levels have dropped from 2,400 employees in 2002 to about 1,100 employees now” This trend has been happening to the entirety of state government. Attrition has been tremendous but people still expect to get the same level of service from the government. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.