121 Comments - Leave a Light on George - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 10:54 am: Whether it’s $1 or $10 per year someone please tell me what service I as a law abiding gun owner receive in return for this tax? - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:00 am: If we need to cover the cost then it should go to $15. But not try to make money off of the gun owners. Besides, if we increase the FOID charge I guess maybe they could complete them on time and within the law? Seeing how people are waiting more than 60 days for their FOIDs and the law states the ISP has 30 days to issue or deny a FOID. - Both Sides Now - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:00 am: Raise the FOID cards to $25 which would still be very reasonable for a ten year license. And it would raise the state’s income by over $12 million. Then get pass a realistic version of concealed carry. Everybody wins! - Chicago Cynic - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:02 am: Leave a light on, Sorry - since when do you get a “service” for ever government fee you pay? Give me a break. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:02 am: Leave it, The service is that it helps keeps guns out of the hands of people who might want to kill us. Seems like a pretty good deal. We have a lot of fees that impact constitutional right. This is nothing different. Time to raise it. - Blue Dog - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:03 am: It used to be that the ISP handled this program themselves. They had an office at Iles & 6th in Springfield where employees processed applications, ran the checks and printed the cards on State owned machines. The FOID program was not losing money then. Maybe they should look at going back to the old system and do the work in house instead of farming it out to Indiana. Another possibility- Perhaps its time to end the FOID program? Currently all FOID does is add a single background check to the firearms process. I have to go through a check to get my FOID, then go through that same check every time I buy a firearm from a dealer. The FOID only proves I passed a check within the last 10 years, it does nothing to certify I am still eligible to own a firearm. With Universal back ground checks (including private sales) likely passing nationwide, the FOID will be nothing but a duplicate & unnecessary tax on both firearm owners & general public. - wndycty - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:04 am: Leave a light on– currently you cost the taxpayers $2 per FOID card issued. Shouldn’t the cost of FOID at least cover the cost of the background check? - Mason born - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:04 am: Leave You have a point the real question is does the FOID card serve a purpose. If the FOID doesn’t prevent crime then is there any reason to keep it? I believe there was a story a year or two ago (getting old memory might be slipping) saying that it hasn’t had an appreciable difference. For those who don’t know if i buy a gun from a dealer i have to have a background check and fill out paperwork the FOID doesn’t change anything there. I wonder would it be cheaper to transition to an online background check for private sellers require the seller and buyer to keep a copy of the approval seems to be better use for resources than the FOID. - Mason born - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:11 am: I see several comments from Chicago area folks. I wonder do you have proof the FOID card works to prevent anything??? You see down here it is kind of a joke i got my first one at 12 needed it to go hunting by myself after school. I have to show it to even look at a gun so if my aunt wants to look at a gun to decide whether she wants one she has to get a foid. She may never decide to buy a gun but she has to get a foid. I a 12yr old boy who it was completely illegal to buy any weapon by state law had to get a foid card to shoot squirrels on my Grandfathers farm. You see the ISP is completely incompetent in maintaining and administering the foid. I think what you miss is that the question leave is asking is are we gaining anything not just as gun owners but as all IL citizens by having this program. I assure you if i am stopped and the police for some reason search my car and find a weapon they are going to run my name and do a background check whether i have a foid or not. so what do we gain? - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:11 am: Mason, The FOID is a 1960’s/1970’s hangover from a time when instant background checks were not available. Right now it just says “this person can look at guns or buy ammo”, thats it. Because when we purchase a gun in a dealer you still get the NICS background checks. The NICS checks should be able to be accessed on-line or by non-FFL dealers. Then you can require a background check on every sale (Dealer or Face to face) right then. No FOID card needed. - Fair Share - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:14 am: Skeeter - what other constitutional right has a fee or tax? - thechampaignlife - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:20 am: I submitted my FOID app in mid October and just got it a couple weeks ago. I would have gladly paid double to expedite. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:21 am: ===what other constitutional right has a fee or tax?=== Lobbyist pay a significant registration fee. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:22 am: ===what other constitutional right has a fee or tax?=== Ever apply for a public demonstration permit? - Endangered Moderate Species - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:24 am: I agree with those who question the actual service provided from the issuance of FOID cards. Maybe someone can help enlighten me. If a good case can be made for why we even have a FOID card then I will be acceptable to an increase that meets the cost of the service. - BehindTheScenes - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:24 am: I showed my FOID card to a friend from Nebraska last summer while having dinner at a local restaurant. When I explained to him what it was, he laughed so hard people were turning and looking. I have not found another state that issues a FOID card. I seriously doubt, as someone suggested, that a FOID card system keeps guns ‘out of the hands of people who might want to kill us’ as a commenter suggested. It makes law-abiding citizens jump through yet another hoop to look at a gun in a store, buy a gun or even buy ammunition. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:25 am: ===It makes law-abiding citizens jump through yet another hoop=== OK, well then thank the NRA. It was their idea. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:25 am: Rich’s examples are probably the two most obvious. However, courts have held that interstate travel is a fundamental constitutional right, yet we have all sorts of fees associated with cars. - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:26 am: Rich, Are you saying the FOID card was the NRA’s idea? I’d like a link or some reference for that. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:27 am: Go look it up. The FOID was a compromise. Illinois legislators had proposed requiring registration of all guns. - Huh? - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:29 am: I pay $60 for a 2 year IL PE license. Increasing the cost of a 10 year FOID to $12 is nothing. ISP should review the cost increase and then recommend at least $20 application fee with the additional funds going to support other vital functions in the department. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:29 am: Geez, what’s with the griping about a buck a year? Some folks just want free stuff. The Illinois Constitution guarantees every student a free public education. Yet, somehow, I’ve been touched for about $900 in fees so far this year (above and beyond all property and income taxes). - BehindTheScenes - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:30 am: I forgot to mention that I did not know the ISP was farming the work out to Indiana as someone mentioned. Illinois sends a lot of it’s work across state lines, but that’s a whole ‘nother story. I find it curious that they insist you send a color photo in with the FOID application and your card is issued with your driver’s license photo on it. - Mason born - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:31 am: USMC hey Jarhead friendly fire. (coming from a fellow Jarhead) Your just reinforcing my point the foid doesn’t do much. Rich you are right the NRA was for it before however since then we have the NCIS as well as background checks for all weapons purchased from a Dealer. Basically what i am saying is the FOID card was proposed to fix a problem that doesn’t exist anymore i.e. no background checks. I think we should probably look at all State Programs and determine whether there is any benefit to their continuance and if not scrap them. We’re broke after all. - Just Observing - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:35 am: === [S]ince when do you get a “service” for ever government fee you pay? === A fee is for a service provided; a tax is for revenue purposes. By law, a fee must be for a service provided and the cost must, give or take, mirror the cost that government bears to provide the service. - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:37 am: They still demand a 24/72 hour waiting period for a “background check” and/or “cooling off period” whenever I purchase a gun. They do this even though I -already- have a FOID (and they do a complete background check on every FOID holder every month). I can’t even use it for identification; it is (or was) the FIRST thing listed as not acceptable for identification on signs posted in the Klein Street “Diver’s Services” office. Bear in mind that this card is issued by the State of Illinois and the Secretary of State -will- accept a utility bill in your name or a checkbook bearing your name as ID. As to that “$1 in 1969 money is now $6.26″ point you make, computer power, memory and disk capacity have gotten cheaper faster than the dollar has inflated. In 1969, main storage or RAM cost almost $1 per -bit- (now $1 buys 90+MB) and disk storage cost about $1 per -byte- (now $1 buys 20100 MB). Database engines are cheaper than they were as well as being more capable, too. The $1/year rate strikes me as reasonable, considering how much prices for the required resources have declined over time. I like the alternative better, though: save the money and drop the entire FOID nonsense; the resources can be used to better effect tracking -criminals- rather than law abiding gun buyers. - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:39 am: Rich, you made the statement about who’s idea it was. Forcing someone else who challenges you to look up info that backs you up your dissertation? kinda odd right? Look it up where? I poke around google and what not and find nothing about the FOIDs history. But whatever, its your site. Just another of your “NRA Evil” little pokes. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:40 am: ===Just another of your “NRA Evil” little pokes.=== That’s ridiculous. Bite me. - Endangered Moderate Species - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:41 am: “I find it curious that they insist you send a color photo in with the FOID application and your card is issued with your driver’s license photo on it.” Scenes- I am glad to know I m not the only one whom had this happen. I submitted a brand new color photo this past year (as required) and they issued my FOID card with my 5 year old Driver’s License photo. - Todd - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:41 am: The FOID was forced upon us as a way of staying off registration of all firearms, What you may not know, is that of the $10 the state police get $4 and $6 goes to DNR. Also a holdover from the orginal bill in ‘68 - Mason born - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:42 am: TO me it isn’t the cost of the fee increase raising the fee to mirror the cost of service is fair. The real question is it a service that is of benefit anymore? If not why keep it? - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:45 am: Skeeter: -The service is that it helps keeps guns out of the hands of people who might want to kill us. Seems like a pretty good deal.- It does NOT seem to work that way in Chicago. Is it a “pretty good deal” for them? Again, Drop FOID and use the resources to track -criminals- rather than impose an arbitrary inconvenience on law abiding citizens. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:47 am: Jeeper, You wrote “It does NOT seem to work that way in Chicago. Is it a “pretty good deal” for them?” I assume you have some evidence to back that claim. Please post it. We would all like to read it. - Plutocrat03 - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:48 am: If the FOID card is a hangover from the days of no instant gun checks, let’s solve the problem by dropping the requirement of the card in the first place. These seems to be no push for a national FOID card, so is seems there is no perceived benefit. It’s a win, win, the gun owners don’t have to get a photo and pay a fee and the state does not have to provide a service that no gun owner wants at a loss. Mason Born has a point. The State has a bushel full of programs that were put in place to address an issue. There never seems to be a review to determine whether a program is useful or duplicative. Develop a system to see whether thing work as intended and eliminate the programs that do not meet muster. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:48 am: Todd, It was forced upon you? Were you really that weak? - Leave a Light on George - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:51 am: =What you may not know, is that of the $10 the state police get $4 and $6 goes to DNR. Also a holdover from the orginal bill in ‘68= Ah, so now I will answer my own question. I knew that DNR received some of the $ by I had forgotten what %. As an outdoor lover I do benefit from DNR. However, I would prefer to give my $ directly to DNR without having to filter it through the State Police. Kind of proves the point that it doesn’t help reduce gun violence if you give 60% of the $ to an agency that among other things serves law abiding hunters. - Liberty_First - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:53 am: The police do use the FOID card today. If someone is convicted of an act of domestic violence, the FOID card is revoked. If a household member then says there is a gun, the police can confiscate it. - Mason born - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:53 am: Skeeter You might want to cut Todd a break on this one. By the way don’t think Todd is old enough to have been there. Remember as has been said there were NO checks what so ever nationwide. The position was a compromise between a statewide registration scheme and a card that was basically proof someone could pass a background check. In the end it was a good choice. Now the problem it was aimed to solve doesn’t exist. Do we still need it? - Mason born - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:54 am: Liberty that is the way it is supposed to work yes but if you are convicted then you cannot pass a check anyway. Kind of a wash. - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:56 am: Skeeter: Is the Trib OK? http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-guns-gangs-20130217,0,5523551,full.story I am not a lawyer, but my rudimentary understanding of state and Federal law tells me this “student” and his Illinois business contacts are breaki9ngn the law a BUNCH of ways, including the FOID nonsense. What’s your take? - Liberty_First - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:07 pm: Mason - Your missing the point about immediate nature of the FOID card. Community policing grants allowed for someone to cross check FOID cards with domestic violence convictions and complaints. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:07 pm: Jeeper, We have laws against bank robbing, but yet amazingly we still have bank robberies. Does that lead to the conclusion that bank robbery laws do not work? - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:24 pm: Skeeter: Are you aware how silly your own argument makes -your- argument look? We all agree that stealing the money or possession of another is wrong. Bank robbery (-your- choice for comparison) pretty clearly harms the bank, its customers, anyone hurt or traumatized during the robbery, its insurance company, the insurance company’s other customers, etc. In the end, laws against robbing banks are -not- merely traps for the ignorant or unwary (as the FOID statute is for someone moving to Illinois from, say Louisiana, they -are- enforceable (which the article I linked suggests the FOID statute is -not-) and have the support of everyone but the robbers. Unless you believe that -every- gun buyer buys gun(s) with specific intent to harm others, I fail to see the parallel that justifies the FOID statute. Besides which, the FOID statute -plainly- -fails- in “keep(ing) guns out of the hands of people who might want to kill us.” That “student” wasn’t selling pistols to homeowners for self protection, was he? - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:28 pm: Jeeper, Do you even listen to your own arguments? You claimed that the FOID program does not work in Chicago. I assume you want to abolish it. Correct me if I’m mistaken. I asked for evidence. You responded with a story saying that guns still get through. I responded noting that we also have bank robberies. Apparently, your criteria for success is 100% compliance, so by your standards, our bank robbery laws are a failure and must be abolished. Give it some though, Jeep. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:29 pm: Should read “Give it some thought.” And I need to read over the post before hitting “Say it.” - Leave a Light on George - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:31 pm: =We have laws against bank robbing, but yet amazingly we still have bank robberies. Does that lead to the conclusion that bank robbery laws do not work?= They work because when a bank robber gets caught they enforce the law against the bank robber instead of requiring those who have never robbed a bank pay a fee and get a card to prove they are not bank robbers Does the general public need to register with the state before using a bank? - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:33 pm: Actually, we pay all sorts of taxes relative to banks, bank security, and bank regulation. Come on. Give think these things through. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:35 pm: Once again, the irony in my own post. It should read “Give it some thought. Think these things through.” I thought about it, but did not properly type it. - Champaign - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:36 pm: Regardless of your position on the idea of FOID Cards, everyone should read the Auditor General’s report from last year. “However, the Department anticipates that in mid-2013, there will be a significant decrease in the renewal of FOID cards due to the change from a 5-year card to a 10-year card.” I would suggest that ISP get all of the $10.00, assuming that very few of the new FOID card applicants are hunters and most are purchsing firearms for personal protection. DNR can raise the cost of licenses if they need the money. Finally, the contracts should be bid again as the ISP was not able to present the full procurement documents for the current contracts, over 5 years old. This may be a mistake though since fewer firms are willing to do business with the state due to issues with timely payment. - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:36 pm: Skeeter: I -have- given it some thought; have -you-? I did not even imply a standard of 100% compliance and your assertion is an attempt at diversion. The FOID statute is unenforceable and is used as a bargaining chip when attempting to get perpetrators of “larger” crimes to accept a plea deal as I was told by a LEO in a college class decades ago. As I said earlier, get rid of the FOID and use the freed resources to track -criminals- rather than inconvenience law abiding citizens and their purchases. What -other- purpose does it truly serve? - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:38 pm: Jeeper, Then what was the point of the story you posted? - Mason born - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:42 pm: Liberty i understand what you are saying i just don’t think it is a useful positive. If someone is convicted of Domestic battery they are required by the Federal Lautenburg Amendment to Turn over or dispose of all guns as well as making it impossible to get a FOID. I would assume that would allow the police to get a warrant for the illegal possession. So in theory checking their FOID card dos nothing. Again a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. - Amalia - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:43 pm: so if we go to full background check mode, will we still need the FOID? how will things change? - Judgment Day - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:46 pm: From an operations standpoint, this just doesn’t pass the smell test (without a lot more information): Ok, so they run 70,000 forms a month. Each form requires 2 checks of federal databases. Do they check any other databases? At $12.00 per, that’s $840,000 PER MONTH for just processing paperwork, printing up FOID cards, and sending back out. This appears to be a really simple process: 1) So, apps come in. First step is to validate data (is everything there?). 2) If validation process results in nominal errors, then index data into DB. 3) Process payment information. There’s all sorts of places out there that will love to handle payment processing for a small fee, Intuit comes to mind. And provide the data back in digital format ready for interfacing with the initial DB record. 4) Do your federal background checks. Set it up to work as a CCP (Critical Control Point) process, so each time you hit all your markers. 5) If application meets acceptable parameters, Pass (issue FOID card). If not, then Fail (deny FOID card). 6) You’ve got to have an appeal process, but normally that’s a separate fee. Don’t know how it works for FOID cards. 7) Issue (print and mail) the FOID card. That’s just ‘finishing’ in terms of the process. 8) Generate your monthly/weekly administrative paperwork reports to not only validate your processing system, but also to maintain quality control. Seriously, that process has actual costs of $840k a month? Know lots of local governments, not to mention private businesses that run processing, receipting, and finishing operations which are far larger than 70k volume a month, and they do it for a lot less than $12 per. Appears they’ve got some serious embedded inefficiencies in their process. - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:49 pm: Skeeter: My point was that -that- law is unenforceable against those purchasing guns in transactions preparatory to other intentional criminal acts, i.e. Did your bank robber display a FOID when he bought the gun to rob the bank? As with the gang members in the story, probably not. Did the FOID statute impede his purchase in -any- significant way? As with the gang members in the story, probably not. OK; he didn’t go to a gun shop… What -is- the point of the FOID statute today -other- than to make me a felon if I don’t renew in time? I see none; illuminate this point for me, please. - Mason born - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:58 pm: Judgement There you go expecting the government to be efficient. Why do we trust these people with our money again? Oh yeah if we don’t they send someone with a gun to come get it. - Blue Dog - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 12:59 pm: So we’ve established that it is ok to regulate constitutional rights (display permit), charge a reasonable fee when used by a select few (lobbyist), and that those fees should pay for the system (FOID). According to local media Sangamon County election costs range from $10 (general) to $20 (consolidated) per voter. Why don’t we demand that each voter pay their fair share of the system when they show up to vote? Oh yeah, that would be a poll tax, or a barrier to exercising a freedom. Sorry for the hyperbole here, but if we aren’t willing to accept these kinds of fees for voting, why are we expected to pay fees for firearm ownership? Background checks are already covered at point of sale in most transactions in Illinois. The FOID adds nothing but an extra fee. It’s costing the state $2 x 140,000 (pretty sure that was the number of cards given) per month. You would add $1.5 million to the annual ISP budget just by taking this step. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 1:02 pm: Blue Dog, Because voting is not gun ownership. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 1:05 pm: Jeeper, The person in question faces (depending on details, and I admit I may not be reading the statute correctly, so people can correct me if I’m wrong) either a Class 2 or Class 3 felony. Will fear of committing a Class 2 or Class 3 felony stop everybody? Of course not. I would suspect it would stop some though. - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 1:10 pm: Skeeter: So, -your- bar is “more than ZERO percent?” -You- set a -very- low bar for the utility of a law. This law makes 100% of those who renew -late- unprosecuted FELONS and you think this is acceptable? Drop the FOID and track -criminals- with the unused resources… - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 1:14 pm: Jeeper, If you have a gun and you don’t have it properly registered yes, I think you should be a felon. Guns are serious pieces of equipment. You shouldn’t forget you have one, you shouldn’t forget where you store it, you shouldn’t forget whether it was stolen and you shouldn’t forget that you need to register. If you are mindless enough to forget, you shouldn’t have a gun. - Blue Dog - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 1:26 pm: Skeeter- Both are equal under the constitution, right? Sorry for the match error above, got typing too quickly. ISP said they have a record number of requests (pretty sure it was 140,000 per month), but overall issued cards are 1.5 million, so doubtful that pace would keep up. Either way, the ISP would stand to save quite a bit by abolition of the FOID. - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 1:27 pm: Skeeter; Illinois does -not- require me to “register” my gun(s); it requires me to -register- as a -potential- BUYER of guns… So, yet again, you are not focusing on the question at hand… What -is- the purpose of the FOID law -other- that to make those late in renewing FELONS? - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 1:32 pm: Jeeper, Focus, son. I never said you need to register your guns. The fact that we don’t is a problem for another day. You do need to register yourself. You seem to be all over the board today. First you toss out news articles for some point that is still not clear. Now you are on to some other point. That’s enough for me. Have a great day. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 1:34 pm: Blue Dog, Although the court has called both “fundamental” they’ve never been treated the same. Voting has been treated differently from the other fundamental rights pretty consistently. So no, they are not equal. - Judgment Day - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 1:35 pm: “According to local media Sangamon County election costs range from $10 (general) to $20 (consolidated) per voter.” Blue Dog, don’t use consolidated election costs per as a valid comparison. Election costs are going to be a lot higher than FOID card processing costs. I could go into extreme detail on all the setup/processing costs for a consolidated election, but suffice it to say, not only is election processing a massive amount of administrative work, the work also occurs over an almost 4 month time period. And don’t forget, there’s not only an initial validation process, there’s an ‘After Action’ data validation and reconciliation process included as part of the election process. So, there’s a whole lot of added costs that FOID card processing never sees. - Mason born - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 1:36 pm: Skeeter at 1:14 you did say if the gun wasn’t registered check your post. I don’t see any desire to build a registry among even a majority of Chicago Legislators i also don’t see any utility to a registry. Please explain what you think a registry will do? - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 1:44 pm: Mason, Good catch. My bad. - Judgment Day - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 1:48 pm: Btw, just out of curiosity, I went out to the ISP website. Following observations: 1) Website needs an update. Come on, guys - web standards. 2) Instead of mailing in the $10 check - state e-pay maybe? (I didn’t go all the way through, so it might be out there - but it doesn’t indicate it’s possible on the front screen). 3) So what happens when you just want the form (a printed copy) instead? That’s the second option - not the first option. But, if you look at the first “PREFERRED” option, it says “Enter/DOWNLOAD the application in the following format”. Well, technically they are correct, but visually, the user has a tendency to select the first box (when they see word DOWNLOAD), and they find themselves in the middle of an online application displaying all the old “Windows” type error messages when trying to get out of it. There’s more, but let’s just say that the overall process looks like it needs a little/LOT work. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 1:49 pm: But in answer to the question – I do believe strongly in registering all guns and I also believe in mandatory reporting of all thefts. I believe that if you had a gun last year and you don’t have it this year and you can’t explain why then chances are you sold it to somebody who is using it for crime. Registering guns seems to be the single most effective way to keep guns out of the hands of bad guys. Way too much time is spent trying to define “assault weapon” and on other ridiculous matters that will not stop crime. The goal is to keep the guns out of the hands of people who should not have them. Registration will accomplish that goal. - Blue Dog - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 1:57 pm: Judgement- In my earlier post, I wasn’t trying to compare magnitude of cost, just pointing out both activities have a cost per user. However you now have brought up an interesting point. Elections are very involved & probably do have more work than a FOID card. The 2012 general election had 95,000 voters turnout at a cost of $9 per voter. How is it this service was provided cheaper than a FOID, yet involved more work? I think the ISP needs to reevaluate the process used for FOID, or at least release the Data used to justify costs stated in yesterday’s hearing. - Fair Share - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:03 pm: Skeeter - Ironically, “voting” is not an “enumerated right” in the constitution but the “right to bear arms” is (see 2nd Amendment). Voting is subject to state statutory standards of who is eligible to vote ad under wahat circumstances. Blue Dog - please refer to second posting in this comment chain. - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:05 pm: Skeeter: As youn said - “Focus, son.” You -did- say “If you have a gun and you don’t have it properly registered…”, did you not? That gave me leave to point to the fact of OWNER rather than GUN registration in Illinois, would it not? If, as you say, “The goal is to keep the guns out of the hands of people who should not have them. Registration will accomplish that goal.” and it has -not- worked in either NY (an actual registration scheme) -OR- Chicago (you must report all transactions, including model and serial numbers - a registration scheme in all but name) HOW CAN YOU SAY “Registration will accomplish that goal.” with a straight face (my assumption)? Besides, when was gun registration the topic? Get with the program, Skeeter… - Endangered Moderate Species - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:12 pm: Skeeter, As always, I appreciate your passion for this issue. But I continue to believe you have a misconception about the large majority of gun owners. Many people throughout our State own a gun. (IMO) Many of these guns are just an old shotgun tucked away in the corner of a closet and probably haven’t been out of its case in over a decade. The crime that is happening on the streets of Chicago is not being caused by the FOID carrying citizens of Illinois. My heart goes out to the people living in those neighborhoods, but making it harder for a 70 year old quail hunter in Olney to pursue his sport is not going to solve the problem on the streets of Chicago. Currently, a gun cannot even be linked to a FOID card. They are really two separate items. The FOID card registration form does not ask for the serial numbers of guns owned. The Argument has been made that a convicted felon loses his FOID card rights. Wouldn’t it be just as easy to say a convicted felon loses his rights for gun ownership. Removing a FOID card is not the only way to reduce the gun owning rights of a convicted felon. - Mason born - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:13 pm: Skeeter We will have to agree to disagree on the usefulness of the whole registration thing. i do want your opinion on something else though. Alvarez’s office said they can ignore 7th circuit ruling since it wasn’t U.S. Supremes or IL Supremes. Here is my question what do you think the impact of that on Madigan’s appeal? In particular judges on the fence? Seems to me he just told the 7th to get stuffed the judges i know usually get pretty P’ed off over that kind of stuff. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:16 pm: Mason, I have little use for Alvarez. I think she’s a clown. The GOP ran a good lawyer against her, but then the GOP from top down did nothing to help her. It was a shame. - Judgment Day - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:17 pm: “However you now have brought up an interesting point. Elections are very involved & probably do have more work than a FOID card. The 2012 general election had 95,000 voters turnout at a cost of $9 per voter. How is it this service was provided cheaper than a FOID, yet involved more work?” From personal experience, elections are handled more cost effective for several reasons. First, there’s vendor competition. When you have to compete, you are always looking for ways to do things smarter, faster, cheaper. And with elections, you have set time frames, and they ain’t moving. Election Day is Election Day, and it’s Showtime! So operating efficiency counts. Also, that ‘push’ means that you are always looking for advancements. Every election cycle has changes, so you don’t get to ‘phone it in’. So again, operating efficiency counts. Lastly, you have to validate your work and do it in front of God and everybody. And most of the time, takes slings and arrows in the process. When you’re in the process and you know you are going to be under scrutiny, you sweat the details. OTOH, nobody ever looks at something as commonplace as FOID card processing. I went and printed out the application form, and it’s a standard IBM style ‘fill in the box’ type form for processing. It’s looks to be standard 1980/1990’s era data processing. It’s the old “It worked for us back then, so it will work for us today”…. I actually wouldn’t be surprised to find out that the back end for the ISP System for processing FOID card is a batch style processing system. Inertia… - Property owner - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:21 pm: I back an increase in the fee for a FOID card. As an auto or truck driver I pay 100% of the cost of a new drivers license and then a lot more. The ‘more’ is a form of tax on every driver in the state. I see no reason that anyone who gets a FOID card cannot pay at least what it costs to issue the card. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:24 pm: Endangered, I have no problem with qualified people owning guns. I am concerned about your idea that the gun may be tossed in a closet and forgotten. That seems extremely irresponsible. Regarding that quail hunter — if he otherwise qualifies to get a FOID card but has problems doing so due to inefficiencies, that’s a bad thing. But unfortunately in Illinois much of our government is not efficient. Welcome to Illinois. Now, the fact the existence of a FOID card and the inability of certain people to obtain them should serve as a deterrent against some of the wrong people obtaining guns. Whether or not the law is adequately enforced is another matter. But we should have certain requirements for obtaining a gun (does anybody really doubt that?) and the failure to comply with the rules to register yourself to own a gun should result in a crime. Basically, it means that felons and other bad guys should not have guns. Is that really all that controversial? Regarding your “just say the person can’t own a gun” point. Are you ready to apply that to cars? Get into enough accidents (or whatever) and simply lose the right to drive. Why get a license? Is that the path you want to follow? - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:37 pm: Skeeter (or -any- “anti” willing to commit): With the Illinois FOID or without, -federal- law specifies qualifications for gun ownership what the FOID law simply mirrors. These qualifications are -CHECKED- using the NICS background check for purchases from a federally licensed (the only kind, really) dealer. If that system were opened to sellers in private transactions, that would close -all- the “loopholes.” WHY do we -need- the FOID? (Please be specific.) - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:39 pm: Jeeper, saying that registration is good makes me an “anti”? That’s interesting. - Leave a Light on George - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:41 pm: =Regarding your “just say the person can’t own a gun” point. Are you ready to apply that to cars? Get into enough accidents (or whatever) and simply lose the right to drive. Why get a license? Is that the path you want to follow?= Lots and lots of people who loose their driver’s license continue to drive. But I don’t want to abolish driver’s licenses because the $ pays for things that improve my driving experience. The FOID card however doesn’t improve or prevent anything. All it does is prove that sometime in the past - maybe as long as 10 years ago- I passed a background check. A lot could of happened in that 10years. If I want to buy a gun today I have to pass a background check TODAY - and of course wait the required period before I take possession. What does having FOID card add to this process? - Todd - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:41 pm: Todd, It was forced upon you? Were you really that weak? In 1968 i was 4 and the NRA or ISRA of 1968 is not the organizations of today - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:45 pm: Sure George, and when was the last time you did a behind the wheel test when you got your license renewed? All your driver’s license shows is that 3 years ago your eyes were decent. So again, should we drop licensing requirements for drivers? - dupage dan - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:47 pm: Somehow I don’t think the FOID card is going to go away despite evidence that there is little reason for it to remain what with background checks available to commercial sellers (should also happen at gun shows and between private sellers - in our modern world there has GOT to be some way to expedite that). In any event - like so many other gov’t programs, easy to start, hard to end. 10 bucks for 10 years just ain’t that much. Raise it to 25 per ten years and be done with it. Not that big of a deal. - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:47 pm: Skeeter: Still dodging, eh? Have a nice day. - Leave a Light on George - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:48 pm: Skeeter actually didn’t even have to take the eye test last time. Just paid my money. But to answer your question here is what I wrote, “But I don’t want to abolish driver’s licenses because the $ pays for things that improve my driving experience.” - Susiejones - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:49 pm: raise the fee to $20 for a 10 year card, and bring the processing jobs back to IL. I have a card, just had it renewed last year. wouldn’t bother me to pay more. - Nickypiii - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:52 pm: How about $1,000.00 per year. That amount will pay for the costs associated with ISP having to process all the requests and hopefully cut down the number of “gun lovers” who panic and start buying more guns every time a political microscope is put on guns rights. - Leave a Light on George - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:53 pm: =Somehow I don’t think the FOID card is going to go away despite evidence that there is little reason for it to remain what with background checks available to commercial sellers (should also happen at gun shows and between private sellers - in our modern world there has GOT to be some way to expedite that). In any event - like so many other gov’t programs, easy to start, hard to end. 10 bucks for 10 years just ain’t that much. Raise it to 25 per ten years and be done with it. Not that big of a deal.= And that attitude Double D is one reason the state is in such a financial pickle. - Endangered Moderate Species - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:53 pm: -Are you ready to apply that to cars?- Skeeter my friend, you truly live up to your handle. We debated the car analogy weeks ago, so I am not going there again. The point I was trying to make is a felon cannot own or be in possession of a gun in Illinois. How does having or not having a FOID card change that? My apologies for not doing a better job of stating my point. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:59 pm: –In 1968 i was 4 and the NRA or ISRA of 1968 is not the organizations of today– Don’t know about the ISRA, but the NRA certainly is not. Fascinating bit of history. Lot of good reading on the google. Start with “NRA, Cincinatti, 1977″ and away you go. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 2:59 pm: Endangered, I keep bringing up the car analogy because it continues to be on point. If you get convicted of a DUI, you can’t drive. Why do you need a license then? Why isn’t the mere existence of that DUI enough? - Blue Dog - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 3:11 pm: Skeeter- If every dealer ran a background check before selling a car, then DUI would be enough. They don’t do that. They don’t behave like Federal Firearms License holders. Why? Because cars & guns are not similar. Find the article or amendment to the constitution where cars are enshrined, and maybe comparing the two stands up. - Leave a Light on George - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 3:17 pm: =If you get convicted of a DUI, you can’t drive.= Skeeter you are a nut! There are thousands of drivers with DUI convictions that have a driver’s license. Keep going buddy. We almost have this up to 100 comments! - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 3:19 pm: Leave, So then it is really useless, right? - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 3:20 pm: Blue Dog, The Court has ruled that interstate travel is a fundamental constitutional right. - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 3:20 pm: Skeeter: Still around? Have you addressed the topic at hand (the FOID, its cost and its usefulness) AT ALL? Have you addressed any of the of the secondary questions(such as [the one that -you- introduced] gun registration) AT ALL? No? Hm-m-m-m-m-m-m… - Leave a Light on George - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 3:32 pm: =Leave, So then it is really useless, right?= i assume you are talking about a driver’s license. No. Not useless. In order to get it you have to occasionally take an exam on the rules of the road, pass an eye test, pass a skills test. To get a FOID card you need to pass a background test every 10 years. As many have stated today there are much more efficient ways to do background checks. - Skeeter - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 3:35 pm: Really George? That’s your beef? That it doesn’t make you jump through enough hoops? OK, you’ve got a point. - dupage dan - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 3:50 pm: lalog, Don’t get your comment. The fee has been the same for quite some time. 1 buck a year to administer the program doesn’t seem like very much and doesn’t likely cover the cost to run. That is the cruxt, no? The price of everything goes up - it’s a reality. I’m not supporting that when I say the fee should go up - just recognizing the economic reality. The cart ain’t going before the horse. - Leave a Light on George - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 3:51 pm: =Really George? That’s your beef? That it doesn’t make you jump through enough hoops? OK, you’ve got a point.= Should of quit while I was winning! Might have talked myself into a corner on that last one. LOL - Mason born - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 3:56 pm: Skeeter Believe me not trying to pile on here but saying that interstate travel is a right is not the same as saying you have a right to a car. If so couldn’t i sue the state for not having functioning bridges that make it possible for me to drive into STL at rush hour. There is a difference between guns and cars. In fact I can own a car (in this case truck) and never register with the state or get insurance and be 100% legal. All i have to do is not drive it one the public road ways. I have an old jeep that the only thing i ever did with it is transfer the title it puts around the farm and woods and that is it. - AnotherAnonymous - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 3:57 pm: Skeeter: @1:14 pm - If you have a gun and you don’t have it properly registered yes, I think you should be a felon. Guns are serious pieces of equipment. You shouldn’t forget you have one, you shouldn’t forget where you store it, you shouldn’t forget whether it was stolen and you shouldn’t forget that you need to register. If you are mindless enough to forget, you shouldn’t have a gun. - Or you could just pass an amendment giving yourself a one month amnesty to re-register, ala Chicago Alderman Mell. If you don’t have that power, I suppose you get to be a felon. @2:45 pm - I keep bringing up the car analogy because it continues to be on point. - Apples and oranges. Do you need a license to purchase a car? To possess a car? Since the license is to operate the car, wouldn’t that be analogous to a CCW permit that allows you to carry a firearm? - Mason born - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 3:58 pm: Nicky That is why the fee is entrenched where it is now. To prevent the idea of pricing it out of reach facetiously. Yes i know it is a huge long shot to ever debate if a gov. program is necessary in this state but i can dream can’t i? - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 4:00 pm: @DuPage Dan: Not everything goes up in price over time. In 1969, computer main memory (RAM) cost about $1 per bit (now, $1 buys about 90 MB of DDR3 RAM), disk storage cost about $1 per KB (now, $1 buys about 20,100 MB of disk). Hardware maintenance contracts with the vendors had proportionate prices. Data transfer was generally by tape or card deck rather than the massive transfer rates available via cell modem, much less the truly incredible rates on current optical fiber channels. Database management systems were MUCH more expensive than than now (some good ones are free). Even programmer time was more expensive (in “real” dollars) than it is today. “Instant” background checks were not available; they are now. Dump the FOID and use the resources for other tasks. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 4:01 pm: This 10-year, $10 FOID card sounds like such a crushing burden! Given that, it’s shocking that no compromise can be attained on gun issues. - Mason born - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 4:20 pm: word You are missing the point. I don’t think $10 dollars is a crushing burden or $25 for 10 years. The question is what is the benefit of having the card? If there is no benefit to it why continue the card? now nicky up there thinking we should make it cost $1000 dollars now you are talking about an infringement. If we want to tie the fee to the cost that is fine just ensure that the calculations are transparent and realistic. I.e. ISP decide they should hire 10 new officers and bill FOID funds for it. My question actually has less to do with gun rights and more to do with common sense. Why continue a program that doesn’t yield results or why solve a problem that doesn’t exist? - Chitownhv - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 4:25 pm: Seems like folks don’t want the government to know what guns they own because they are afraid that the government will come take them away. Why is that a real fear? - Mason born - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 4:37 pm: Chi Foid card doesn’t tell anyone what you posess just fyi. As for why i wouldn’t want the gov to know what is in my cabinet. Do you want the gov to know what is your private possessions? There is a reason we require a warrant for a search and seizure. the 4th preserves my privacy as for weapons and the rest of my stuff. As for the Gov. taking away guns based off of a registration list it has happened before numerous times. - RNUG - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 4:42 pm: Guess running the FOID program in the red isn’t hurting the State too much. They managed to find $2.8M from the Illinois Jobs Now! capital program … State acquires 547 acres for hunting, other outdoors recreation http://www.sj-r.com/breaking/x930802892/State-acquires-547-acres-for-hunting-other-outdoors-recreation - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 4:50 pm: Mason, I’ll give it a think, but I appreciate the civil discourse. - Todd - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 4:54 pm: - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 4:01 pm: This 10-year, $10 FOID card sounds like such a crushing burden! Given that, it’s shocking that no compromise can be attained on gun issues. Word we are not going to let you or others keep heaping taxes on our rights. Get over it. You dont have the votes to get it done. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 5:44 pm: –Word we are not going to let you or others keep heaping taxes on our rights. Get over it. You dont have the votes to get it done.– Hello, Todd First of all, they are my, yours and everyone’s, rights. C’mon, man, a buck a year to a few bucks a year? That’s the least of your problems. Let’s move on. Secondly, I don’t have any votes. Like yourself, I’m just a citizen expressing my opinion. Sometimes it goes my way, sometimes it doesn’t. You and I, and many others, have disagreements on conceal-carry, magazines, certain weapons, restrictions and regulations. But that’s the way it goes. We’re both students of Heller and McDonald. They are landmark decisions, no question, and big wins for the NRA. Until Heller, there was no federal (not state, that’s where some get confused) right for anyone to possess a gun outside a well-regulated militia. That was 2008. The litigation is just starting. What I think we both know is that there will be restrictions and regulations and we’re going to find out about them as they evolve. There are 300 million privately-owned firearms in the United States — more guns than televisions, more guns than passenger vehicles. To quote you, get over it. You won’t lack from guns. Personally, in Illinois, I think a regional, home-rule, conceal carry law could have been passed many years ago. I would not have had a problem with that, and many Illinoisans, all over the state, could have enjoyed the benefits of such a law long ago, except for the zealotry (and fundraising lever) of the NRA and ISRA. C’mon man, why didn’t you take half a loaf, and come back for the rest later? It was for direct mail funders. I have no problems, with some exceptions, of weapons in the home or hunting. My concern is weapons in the public square. - Just The Way It Is One - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 6:29 pm: A boost to somewhere between $12 and $15 does not seem unreasonable, particularly since it’s valid for quite awhile. But Illinois should not lose money on this program, which accdng. to the Lieutenant, we are now… - John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 10:21 pm: >>>>>>>“According to local media Sangamon County election costs range from $10 (general) to $20 (consolidated) per voter.” >>>>>>>Blue Dog, don’t use consolidated election costs per as a valid comparison. Election costs are going to be a lot higher than FOID card processing costs. I could go into extreme detail on all the setup/processing costs for a consolidated election, but suffice it to say, not only is election processing a massive amount of administrative work I have a voter’s registration card, I did not have to pay for it, but the cost is borne by the whole. - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:24 pm: Wordslinger: You said ==Personally, in Illinois, I think a regional, home-rule, conceal carry law could have been passed many years ago.== Are you serious about this? Precisely which Chicago mayor would have permitted such a law to pass? Daley? Washington? Byrne? Daley? Emmanuel? One that I missed? Get real. - Jeeper - Wednesday, Feb 20, 13 @ 11:38 pm: An increase in the fee to $12-15 for 10 years would not be onerous and I haven’t seen anyone claim it would be. However it IS useless and redundant because it is just a background check and one is run when an attempt is made to purchase a gun. Therefor, it makes more sense to drop the FOID processing and devote those resources to tasks that -might- actually serve some law enforcement purpose. Why does it hurt you so for the State Police to give up a -useless- task? Is your pain caused by the proposition that gun owners would get to keep the paltry fee rather than hand it to the state? Seriously, what is the problem with dropping this useless dinosaur? - Muffin Man - Thursday, Feb 21, 13 @ 7:04 am: Sure, raise the FOID card application fee. The Illinois Democrat politicians simply regard gun ownership and FOID fees as another one of their “sin taxes” anyway. - T.O. - Thursday, Feb 21, 13 @ 8:07 am: Mason Born- The ISP FOID section isn’t incompetent, as you claim. The issue is they have 19 employees to process 70k applications per month. - Mason born - Thursday, Feb 21, 13 @ 8:10 am: word Thank you for the kindness. But to tell you the truth the CCW law you just explained would not have been enough. You see there are a lot of ISRA and NRA members in Chicago. Todd works for NRA his members live in Chicago therefore if Todd is doing his job he cannot just blow of Chicago. Now I am sure Todd believes in what he does so Todd please don’t take this as me insulting you. As for this home rule thing it really is an asinine way to run a state. I drive from Springfield to Green Bay i am legal where i go and legal where i live but when i go through Chicago i am suddenly illegal. So if i stop for gas with my handgun in my car or stop to eat at the hard rock and i get in an accident suddenly CPD can arrest me for what was legal the entire rest of my journey. I know Chicago likes home rule but really you can’t see the asinine results. Besides the CCW law you propose would have only changed the deffendent from State il to City Chicago. do you really want to see emanuael have to right another check to NRA. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.