51 Comments - Ret Prof - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 10:26 am: Glad to see you pointed this out as a “man bites dog” article. These stories don’t help the process. He makes false comparisons to social security because pensions are supposed to be the combination of social security, the employer share and the employee share. Just because people haven’t contributed enough to their retirement plans is no excuse to steal mine. - RNUG - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 10:27 am: I’ll refrain from repeating the exact comments I made Sunday when I read the SJ-R letter or I’ll end up deleted / banned. However, I will comment on the second half of Rich’s posting. For SERS employees, the ‘457′ Deferred Compensation Plan is an OPTIONAL and SUPPLEMENTAL plan that is funded ONLY by each individual employee’s contribution; there is NO State match or partial match like in the standard 401K plan. As currently structured, Deferred Comp does not replace the Defined Benefits plan. - wordslinger - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 10:30 am: There are pensions, and then there are pensions. My in-laws retired as administrators in a school district with a large industrial property tax base. They burned through their individual pension contributions in about five years. They’ve been retired now for 20 years and have homes on golf courses in the suburbs, Jo Davies County and Florida. Bass boat and pontoon on the lake in Jo Davies, pool in Florida. I don’t think they’re your average pensioneers by a long shot. - Ret Prof - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 10:30 am: I forgot to add that 457 like plans don’t solve the problem of the state not paying the employer share. Nor does the cost shift solve the problem of giving golden payouts because it was the legislature who passed the ERO for teachers with the idea that local schools could get higher paid teachers out of the system. - Geneva Guy - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 10:34 am: To state the obvious, anyone saving for retirement who is offered a 401(k) can ultimately borrow against their 401(k) or simply choose from an inumerable number of other investment vehicles outside the 401(k) plan. Further, one can simply invest in multiple 401(k) plans. These realities provide context for the low average. - langhorne - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 10:36 am: i think the biggest take-away points from the man bites dog letter, that will be mistakenly, broadly extrapolated, are these: “I received substantial bonuses my last three years that boosted my average pay, and I received the full 75 percent of that inflated average. Today, because of the automatic, yearly 3 percent cost-of-living increases, I’m getting more money than I ever did teaching. I thank the current Illinois public school teachers and the Illinois taxpayers who are helping to fund my retirement.” - Chris - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 10:45 am: “there is NO State match or partial match like in the standard 401K plan” I have participated in *4* 401k plans (and my wife 2 more). Only *1* of them has any sort of match, and it was capped at *THREE PERCENT* of gross income. So, over the course of a career, the equivalent of one year of pay. So, the “standard 401k” has neither (1) a match, nor (2) a match that’s worth much. - Joe M - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 10:50 am: A problem I have with Mr. Allen’s comments is that his letter at least indirectly implies that Illinois teachers get too good of pensions. I checked the various teacher salaries databases for the two “downstate” school districts my children went to. At one, in North Central Illinois, the average salary for current teachers in that district is $30,000 annually. And at the other, in West Central Illinois, the average salary of current teachers in that district is $40,000 annually. And at both those school districts, teachers tend to stay there their whole careers. So 75% of those salaries will be their pensions. That comes out to a $22,500 annual pension at the one district — and a $30,000 annual pension at the other district. That doesn’t seem too extravagant for having devoted a career to teaching and having paid over 9% out of each paycheck towards their pensions. - Cornerfield - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 10:52 am: - “Cut my pension, please.” - Easy words coming from a dude with a pension over $90k/year. - Meaningless - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 10:53 am: Voltaire (allegedly) said … “I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” I don’t think John Allen speaks for 99.999999 % of others. It’s too bad that one individual with extreme beliefs should get this much attention. There must be some underlying political agenda involved here. Allen surely doesn’t represent my thoughts. I gave 36 years of my life teaching and coaching other peoples’ children at great expense to my own personal life. I feel that I earned and deserve every penny of my TRS pension and then some. Maybe Allen is feeling guilty about the way he earned his pension and wants to be a martyr. - Cook County Commoner - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:00 am: Promises were made to government employees that apparently can no longer be kept by the taxpayors. Government workers did not keep a tight rein on the politicians and their pension plans. Certainly, they didn’t expect the average Illinois voter to comprehend any of this. Does the government employee sector have any suggestions except “I want what was promised to the penny no matter how many innocent taxpayers get destroyed”? Don’t they bear any resonsibilitty for the debacle? Weren’t they and their leadership in the best position to understand the situation and do something about it? - DisgustedOne - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:01 am: If Mr. Allen feels that his income is so extravagant, perhaps he should make voluntary donations from his income to the State of Illinois to help them out, or perhaps pay some of his own back to TRS. Funny thing is, he comes from a 90K income? Where is the guilt about the state of economic affairs in IL in folks like the Civic Club members, the politicians earning 100K pensions? Where is their guilt? Do you think Mr. Madigan would forego his upcoming 130K+ pension? - zatoichi - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:01 am: I thought the key to retirement is actually having money to invest. Most of the people I know are just barely covering their bills. Must be nice getting 75% of your former salary and COLAs. How long will that remain affordable by the payers? - RNUG - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:01 am: Chris, Your 401K experience is different from my son’s. Except for his most recent job, every one provided at least a 50% match (one did 100% match) up to a given percentage of salary. - SIUPROF - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:03 am: I also think he was referring to how his pension was artificially bumped during his last three years. Isn’t he saying he could live without the bump. Most of us in the SURS system have no ability to bump their pensions. In fact salary increases over 6% don’t count, without a change in duties, or the employer has to pay for them. - Just Observing - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:05 am: Another reason that 401k accounts have low balances is that many workers simply do not maximize the benefits of these plans. I work for a company that matches contributions up to a certain a point — that is free money on the table with exponential returns — yet many workers simply do not take advantage of it. Yes, there are some workers that may need every single dollar now, but there are plenty of workers that are simply being ignorant. - foster brooks - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:06 am: I’m all for taxing john Allen’s “out of state pension” let’s say 20%? - G'Kar - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:09 am: Allen touches on something that has always bothered me a little bit (and I am a community college and formerly president of our local, so I am in the game)–the large increases in the last few years to encourage retirement. I know that for the last decade or so that increase has been effectively capped at 6%, but even with that, it can be an 18% increase over the last three years. Schools and colleges have seen this as a way to save money by replacing high salary faculty (and administrators–often they are the ones who benefit the most from these packages). But, it does greatly increase the pension costs to the state. One sure way of stopping this practice would be to shift future pension matches to the local school boards, community college districts, and state universities! About the second part of the post, I am sure that most already realize this, but 401K’s (or 403b’s and 457’s for educators) were set up to supplement social security. They were never designed to be to sole source of a pension. - FactCheck - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:11 am: John Allen retired as an administrator, not a teacher. I’m sure he cared about his students in the classroom and on the football field, but from a financial perspective, he does not represent all of us. A tiny fraction of teachers make that transition and sweeten their pensions in this way. He doesn’t mention that in his op-ed, but it’s in the description at the very bottom. - G'Kar - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:12 am: Geesh, I have to learn to proof read more effectively. I am not a community college, I am a community college faculty member! Sorry. - Joe M - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:13 am: A typical good private employer might be contributing for their employee’s retirement by contributing 6.2% into Social Security - and also matching say, 4% into a 401(k) type plan. That would be a total employer contribution of 10.2%. Ironically, if the State of Illinois as employer would have been contributing 10.2% annually into TRS, SERS and SURS, annually, then the State wouldn’t have near the pension problems it has. But instead, the State as employer often modified or even skipped paying money into the pension systems. No retirement system works if the employer skips its contributions. - Anonymous - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:20 am: “If Mr. Allen feels that his income is so extravagant, perhaps he should make voluntary donations from his income to the State of Illinois to help them out” I feel exactly the same way about the supporters of the 67% “temporary” tax hike, which is very soon to become permanent… - Skirmisher - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:26 am: Teachers as a rule get much fatter pensions than do ordinary state employees. An employee of regular state agency in Springfield would have to stay with the state for 45 years to get a 75% of salary pension. This guy also was the beneficiary of the pension-boosting abuses that many school districts apparently engage in, since they are effectively spending other folk’s money. The problem is that most people read this sort of thing in the papers and assume all public employees get this sort of cushy deal- They do not. - Anyone Remember? - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:32 am: Skirmisher - Public school teachers do NOT get Social Security, and those higher prior to 1986 do NOT get Medicare. That’s why the pension is “fatter” … . - DINO - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:34 am: The state is 100% being run by the candidates that IEA, AFL-CIO and AFSCME endorsed. You got your people, so don’t whine. Joe M, maybe those $30k and $40k numbers are starting pay, not average teacher pay. I’m in as poor of an area as there is and average teacher pay is way higher than that. I’m self employed, I pay 15% into social security and can’t draw a dime till 70. The current maximum benefit it $2,635 and I would argue that private sector employees pay just as much, if not more, into social security as do their public counterparts. This madness can’t be sustained. You can’t work 30 years and be paid 70 YEARS. That is what you think is “fair”. You can’t keep all of your pension and expect me to roll over anf take another 50% tax increase. - Palos Park Bob - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:38 am: One problem there, Joe M. The employer contribution of 6.2% in the SSC case is part of the cost of compensation, and therefore is a factor in the amount of salary provided to the employee. In suburban school districts, that “employer match” causes little impact on salaries because it’s a measley 0.58%. Since the state contribution has no impact on salary negotiations, the TRS employee “has their cake and is eating it too!” It should also be noted that TRS employees, and their school district employers, aren’t paying their fair share for “end of career spiking” that can add as much as 16% to the LIFETIME costs of the pensions. The big deal in cost shifting to local schools is having the districts pay for the “spiking” and other tricks they use to scam the TRS system. Of course, to make things fair when the the cost for “spiking” comes from negotiated teacher salaries, protection from teacher strikes must be part of the legislative package. Try getting THAT through a teacher dominated GA! - Leave my pension alone - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:39 am: We are in this mess because the state has failed to pay their pension obligations. Why would anybody think they would pay their share into somebody’s 401K? - thechampaignlife - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:40 am: I know I’m in the minority but I’d also agree to a pension cut assuming it was applied to all equally. I’m thinking something along the lines of extra years required to work, COLA set to actual compounding inflation, increase in employee contribution, and even a % decrease in benefit amount (perhaps excluding the first 2x the poverty threshold or something to that effect). The fact that I’ll be able to retire at 50 with 80% of my salary (SURS money purchase plan, 30-and-out) is overly generous in my book. Then again, I put over 50% of my income into the 457, 403b, and SURS plans so I’m not the norm. - PublicServant - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:43 am: 1) If the unions ran the state and elected the reps as the current right wing rhetoric suggests, we wouldn’t be having this pension discussion now. 2) This is a representative democracy. They represent you and I. 3) As RNUG has pointed out several times, employees tried to sue the state to force them to make the actuarially required annual payments. The courts ruled that while the state could not be forced to make annual payments that they were, however, responsible for paying the benefits when due. - Joe M - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:48 am: ==Joe M, maybe those $30k and $40k numbers are starting pay, not average teacher pay. I’m in as poor of an area as there is and average teacher pay is way higher than that.== Those were not starting salaries - they were average salaries. Pay for teachers in many small rural school districts is often one third to one half of what teacher’s pay is in Chicago suburban districts. - DisgustedOne - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 11:54 am: After reading thechampaignlife’s comment, it just has to be acknowledged somehow that the five different state pension plans operate very very differently. And even within TRS, for example, administrators are very different than teachers. I have no idea how one size fits all changes to the pension plans could apply. Teachers can’t retire at 50 and never can earn as much as 80%. Unlike state employees, there is also no free health insurance. Just pointing out differences. When some of these extreme examples are put out there, some people assume it’s true for everyone. The plans offer very different menus. - mythoughtis - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 12:01 pm: 401Ks, IRA, etc all get sold to people under the theory that if you regularly contribute small amounts every month thruout your working life (say the same amount as a pension contribution), then you will be set for life when you retire. Not barely scraping by, but SET for LIFE. So, are people being sold a bill of goods when they assume their pension will also be there and will have compounded? Someone needs to go out and see what the investment gurus think pension contributions would be worth properly after a lifetime of contributions. As for this article, I agree that we should eliminate the bump-ups in the last 4 years in terms of counting toward pension. There is no actuarial basis for 3 years of increased contribution resulting in that much return. - Anon. - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 12:02 pm: ==I’m all for taxing john Allen’s “out of state pension” let’s say 20%?== Take that up with Congress. They say we can’t tax nonresidents on their pensions. As to Allen’s proposal, nothing is stopping him from giving some of his money to the State or even his old school district, and he can do that without “volunteering” other retirees to take a cut. - Arthur Andersen - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 12:10 pm: First of all, people like Allen are why the law was changed to stop the big end of career pay spikes-unless the school wants to pay the actuarial freight. Perhaps the current 6% cap needs to be reevaluated along with the other pension discussions. Secondly, even ten years and ten COLAs later, Allen’s pension is over fifty percent higher than the average TRS annuity. Finally, for the SURS people whining about being “unable to spike” or whatever, you protesteth too much. The gift of the money purchase option, which really only works for SURS, is a better deal for the average employee (who can’t really manipulate their compensation like an administrator) than any end-of-career gaming ever could. See thechampaignlife post for a fine example. - archimedes - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 12:15 pm: Since he retired in 2002, that was prior to the change in law (2005) that made any annual increase over 6% the responsibility of the school district - at the time he retired he could have gotten as high as 20% increases and it would all count toward his pension AND the State had to pay the extra cost. Also - at 3% annual increases it would take 10 years to equal his AVERAGE of his last 4 years salary. Pension starts at 75% of the average of the highest 4 years. Masimum Social Securiy benefit is $30,400. So he has over $90,000 pension right now. - Meaningless - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 12:30 pm: It’s very difficult to pose arguments when people are trying to compare apples to oranges. Some state pension system retirees receive Social Security along with their pension benefits. I read recently that 90% of retired state employees, university workers, judges, and lawmakers PAY $0 toward their insurance premiums. As a TRS retiree, I receive $0 from Social Security and $0 for my health insurance costs. My health insurance costs are payed out of my pocket. Unfortunately, most of the public is not aware of these differences. I can’t tell you how many people have made comments to me about my “FREE” health insurance that couldn’t be further from the truth. - G'Kar - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 12:49 pm: Meaningless–you are right about apples and oranges, and after having read just about every downstate community colleges’ contracts, I can tell you that very, very, very few had either no cost insurance premiums or 0% pension contribution and I can’t remember a single one were the college paid for both. - Cheryl44 - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 12:57 pm: If he doesn’t want/need his entire pension, he’s free to give the excess to charity. - DINO - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 12:57 pm: Joe M, If Cairo is not the poorest school district on the state, it’s close. Out of 64 employees, only 21 of them make $40k or less. Compared to 30 making $50k or more. That means that the average teacher in Cairo, IL is paid well more than the $30-$40k you claim. Teachers are paid fairly for what they do, I don’t think anyone is wanting to cut their pay. It’s the generous retirement benefits that are breaking the state. Oh yeah, did we talk about them working only 9 months? - Mouthy - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 1:01 pm: What strikes me the most about the article is how far the SJ-R will go to bash state retirees in publishing such tripe. - Jim - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 1:19 pm: The thing about 401ks is that if you put little or nothing in, they it won’t grow much. investments are like that. - titan - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 1:50 pm: With an average of just under $60k and a median of just over $16k, it is clear that some relatively small percentage of people have saved a lot in their 401(k) and most have done little. - SIUPROF - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 2:06 pm: The normal cost of the pensions is about 12%. Had the state paid that each year, which is pretty close to what a private employer who pays SS plus a match of up to 6% would pay, we would not be in the hole we find ourselves. So to those who say the pensions are too generous, it is simply not true. - Anon - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 2:09 pm: I hope most people understand Mr. Allen’s pension is not typical. My mother died last year after approximately 20 years of retirement. She had worked first as a nurse, later a social worker, and finally as an elementary school teacher in a downstate school district for over 20 years. As a result, her retirement income was derived from Social Security (nursing), SERS (social work), and TRS (teaching). At the time of her death, the total amounted to less than $2000 per month. Even after 20 years of 3% COLAs, her pension was never as much as she made in her last year of teaching. - downstate commissioner - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 2:41 pm: My wife retired after 33 years of teaching, at age 56, mainly because of health problems. The pay cut HURT! She recently got her cola increase after the five year waiting period. Unfortunately, it really doesn’t cover the actual cost-of-living expenses that have occurred in the past few years. I will be eligible for social security in 2 years at age 66, but will have to work to age 70 to max out in IMRF. I can only hope that the extra income from ss will be sufficient to pay off mortgages, purchase a newER car, etc. before I actually retire. I fear that it will not, oh well, there is always suicide. - steve schnorf - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 2:42 pm: I have effectively said the same thing as Mr Allen for the last couple of years (except for his GA bashing). A few months ago while having dinner with a couple of Chicago area legislators I told them it would be Ok with me to do a 2 or 3 year COLA holiday, maybe move to chained CPI after that, and to pay a significant chunk of the cost of my retiree health insurance cost. They both pointed out that it was easier for me than the average retiree to do those things because my pension was above average, and asked whether a retiree bringing in $30,000 per year could do the same thing as easily as I could. And the answer is “No”, they couldn’t. I want to make it clear my pension plus my social security don’t exceed my salary before I retired, not really close. I’m glad AFSCME negotiated a percentage of pension rather than a flat amount for health contributions. That helps lower pension retirees some. And I have further suggested something along the lines of capping that contribution at 1% of the first $25,000 of pension, 2% up to $50,000, 3%up to $75,000, and 4% over $75,000. Also, I have said I support taxing retirement income over some reasonable amount. Those aren’t things that would be painless to me, but they would be less painful to me than to many others. Some of us do in fact have it pretty darned good. Unfortunately some of us don’t realize that, or at least won’t acknowledge it. - Property owner - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 2:47 pm: “I received substantial bonuses my last three years that boosted my average pay, and I received the full 75 percent of that inflated average” Sad to say but this was very common in many school systems for many years. While the major problem was the state not funding the pension systems the practice outlined by the letter writer was also a factor. The teachers unions need to step up to the plate and help, to some degree, fund the pension debt. - Atticus III - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 4:45 pm: Kudos to Mr. Allen. As a number have commented on the appearance of impropriety in the end-of-career shenanigans described by Mr. Allen, a tweek in the benefit calculation to eliminate windfall pensions in excess of career-long experience would go a long way to solving the problem. But, you should also look at the practice of retiring legislators switching to high paying executive positions to similarly game their pensions. There are a number of notables in this category. - Meaningless - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 5:12 pm: As as a retired teacher, I’m very offended by DINO’s snippy remark …”Oh yeah, did we talk about them (Cairo) working only 9 months.” Even though this remark might have been directed at Cairo’s teacher, I can tell you I had a totally different experience. My school calendar usually ran from mid-August to mid-June which means 10 months. As a teacher and coach, I usually spent most of mid-June to mid-August working on curriculum projects and summer camps for very little compensation. During the school year I usually averaged about 75 hour work weeks due to classroom instruction, lesson planning, evaluation of student classwork (most of this was done at home in the evening), not to mention my coaching assignments that were almost a second full-time job, again with minimal compensation. Let’s do a little math. For most of my 36 year teaching career, I probably averaged around 3,000 hours a year related to my teaching and coaching job. A 40 hour work-week for 52 weeks would be 2,080 hours. There are thousands of other teachers and coaches that had the same work load as I did. DINO - I think you owe all of us an apology. - Bemused - Monday, Mar 4, 13 @ 10:35 pm: What the 401K numbers tell us is that in the not too distant future we are going to have to support more broke seniors. People are already becoming aware that the 401K they have is not up to supporting them in thier golden years. So they work longer if they can. Problem is somewhere along the line they can not work and the funds from the 401 run out and they are left with only SS benifits. Just like our State Pension issue someone will be left with a costly mess to fix. Taxpayers will be hit with the bill to house,feed and care for a lot of our older citizens. One other problem I see with the 401K is you can take it as a lump sum at 59 1/2. How many folks are going to take it to Vegas and double their money. Hey if you don’t win uncle sugar just takes care of you a bit sooner. - chap - Tuesday, Mar 5, 13 @ 7:50 am: This is why the government wants to implement the cost shift to the school districts. I am not all for it, but getting huge raises the last 3 or 4 year to get a higher retirement is going to have to stop. They should be accountable for these raises…just saying.. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.