74 Comments - HaroldVK - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:08 am: Everything you need to know about gun control in Illinois in one post: 1. Quinn rambles on and may try to block any deal but takes no significant role in getting legislation passed; 2. Todd takes a reasonable position and he’s got a court order to fall back on if his position is not accepted; 3. BFC still doesn’t seem to get that she lost in court; 4. ISRA scares the moderates. That pretty much sums up every gun control story for the past year. - RonOglesby - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:11 am: Come June 8th they cant enforce the ban anymore… they better do something. - RNUG - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:12 am: Quinn playing to his Chicago base tick, tock … - Non-ISRA Member - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:13 am: It would be very interesting if Governor Quinn vetoed a bill passed by both houses of the GA and then the deadline set by the Seventh Circuit passed, allowing CC with FOID. Perhaps the GA leadership could warn Quinn of this consequence. While I am not a fan of Rep. Zalewski, the good people of his district sent him to Springfield, so he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I don’t think he’s a crackpot; I put him in the same category as Sen. Jim Oberweis, who has the same qualification. - GurgleGutz - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:14 am: If Quinn wants to veto it, that’s fine. Come June 9, if it’s not a law by then, Quinn will be wishing he’d signed whatever came across his desk that at least had some kind of control over Concealed Carry Permit issuance. - Amalia - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:17 am: am I drunk from last evening? cause the ISRA message looks very weird. - Demoralized - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:18 am: I love when groups pull out the hyperbole. Let’s see. In this one “Urgent Alert” they called people liars, crackpots, and said gun control is a disease. That certainly endears those of us who remain rational to their cause. As for the demand that locals have control? That’s certainly what you want. Hundreds of different standards for concealed carry. Banned here. Strap it on your waste for all to see there. Good idea guys. - Charlatan Heston - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:31 am: So what happens if on June 8 the Gov has not signed a bill? - VanillaMan - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:31 am: Illinois is too badly governed to handle this case. Let the ban expire and let Illinois join the rest of the other 49 states. Then elect people who know how to move forward. - Tequila Mockingbird - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:34 am: I guess we need an official definition of “crackpot”. Zalewski is certainly antigun and he wasted a lot of time introducing silly restrictions without understanding his own amendments. If there is a right to carry, it should be statewide. A local unit of government can’t decide to restrict other fundamental rights. Quinn and the Chicago machine is in a corner on this one. - RonOglesby - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:35 am: @Charlatan The 180 day stay that the 7th circuit issued is lifted. Meaning the state will wind up unable to enforce its ban on any type of carry of a weapon. That is why the court gave Illinois 180 days, to come up with a licensing and registration system or a set of laws that allowed for some type of carry. Remember, this is just about concealed carry. What the court said was that you could not just outright ban all forms of carry flat out. You could have licensing systems, permit systems, etc. If they fail to pass a law, they cant enforce the ban on carry. - the Patriot - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:35 am: Quinn makes my point from yesterday. Even if everyone agrees on the rules, we do not have the infrastructure and ability to coordinate accross agencies to implement a meaningful system. While the Simon list seems reasonable, it will take at least a year to fund and implement. That is in effect continuing the band and will not hold up. The legislature needs to split this into two plans right now. The emergency bill and the permanent one. Emergency bill due by June 9 should allow only current foid card holders to conceal and carry. Maybe make age limit 21 or require foid holder for 3-5 years to keep people who have only legally owned a gun for a few weeks from carrying in public. Create list restrictions on where guns are banned, and provide private entities the right to ban guns on their premises. Then get together on a full bill with a plan to implement more comprehensive background checks on a feasible timeline. - Cheswick - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:37 am: Under Quinn’s idea, are the locals going to get a share of the licensing fees to compensate them for the work it’ll take? The tone of that action alert makes me think a crackpot sent it. - Charlatan Heston - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:51 am: @Ron Right…So CCW exists for those with FOID by default? - David Ormsby - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:58 am: Note the “polite” reminder. You think that the ISRA guys finally figured out that the Capitol secretaries are fed up with caustic cranks yelling at them? - RonOglesby - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 9:58 am: @charlatan Basically, thoughj local laws at each level of gov could be an issue, you couldn’t be prosecuted under UUW. - Wordslinger - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 10:03 am: I wouldn’t bet the farm on that June 9 date. Besides, if those who want conceal carry really believe that, why would they even want to pass a bill that would be more restrictive? Among the 49 states, there are a number that allow a measure of local control. One size fits all doesn’t always work in a big state like Illinois, as proponents of conceal carry would surely agree regarding the status quo. - SO IL M - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 10:03 am: I think local communities, wherever they are, should have the option to make it as tight as possible in their community.” This is not a new idea. It is the same historical attempt to deny urban residents the right to protect themselves. Why should those who live in the inner city not have the same rights as those in rural areas? Its not new. It is the history of gun control advocates. It is the history of controling people. - Steve - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 10:05 am: The future is already here , in Illinois, for the gun control advocates: don’t issue FOID cards in a timely manner. I know someone who’s been waiting since December for a FOID card. - Statesman - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 10:12 am: non-ISRA Member- “Rep. Zalewski, the good people of his district sent him to Springfield, so he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I don’t think he’s a crackpot; I put him in the same category as Sen. Jim Oberweis, who has the same qualification” Comparing him to Oberweis has to be the epitome of concealed insults. - langhorne - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 10:13 am: way to go, PQ. glad to know early on that, assuming the GA can pass something, you are ready to screw it up. for starters, do you suppo9rt your lt govs list? - RonOglesby - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 10:14 am: @Word, very few states have “local control” in the way Quinn is talking about. the majority (vast) are shall issue, state run programs. I think 9 are may issue with 1 of the may issue states acting as a defacto shall issue. This is a big change for Illinois. But acting as if every local gov entity should be able to pass laws restricting anything they want with guns does nothing but create a nasty nightmare of laws just driving through illinois. As far as a June 9th date and why we are excited? Why would we WANT to pass a bill? Easy, we give up some things (we negotiated in good faith) to get state wide coverage. Training, live fire, deeper background checks, we pay for the classes and licensing fees, Gov buildings out of bounds as are Bars, Stadiums, etc, etc. We are willing to have a decent law that keeps felons and those mentally incapable or unqualified from having guns from having and carrying them. The absolutism is on the other side that wants to maintain that Chicago (or any City) gets to ban guns or make whatever laws (with regards to guns) that they want. - soccermom - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 10:22 am: Do these folks really think that legislators are going to think kindly of them when they unleash their members to scream at underpaid admins who have the bad luck to answer their phone calls? I remember seeing secretaries in tears after these types of phone assaults. Jerks. - RonOglesby - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 10:28 am: @soccermom ISRA is often over the top in these things. I dont agree with this model/message (the whole you get more bees with honey thing…) Do I understand and back their positions on guns? for the most part yes. Do I agree with how they go about these things? no. I spend my time calling my reps asking them to vote they way I want them to vote and expressing my opinions. I dont need the ISRA for that and I cant control or influence anyone that is not my rep. - John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 10:50 am: If Quinn could wrap himself around the concept that is a funcdamental civil right, then he might realize that what he wants is the equivalent of local control over voting rights, or local control over equal housing opportunities. - Just Observing - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 10:53 am: I am an ISRA member, but find their messaging to be unintelligent and too aggressive. And I have repeatedly relayed that to ISRA. - Chavez-respecting Obamist - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 10:56 am: Good for you Just Observing. I don’t really want to disagree with Governor Quinn, but I don’t see how local control is even possible. - Small Town Liberal - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 11:19 am: - local control over voting rights, or local control over equal housing opportunities. - There is an enormous amount of local control over those very items. - RonOglesby - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 11:29 am: @STL what local control of voting rights do you see? - Anonymous - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 11:36 am: Good Lord. The HAIR ON FIRE use of CAPS (no pun) automatically puts such users in the ‘potentially unstable’ category. Talk about shooting yourself in the ……… - wizard - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 11:47 am: support cc but am no longer a member of isra or nra due to their over the top retoric and constant begging for dollars. - Formerly Known As... - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 11:54 am: That’s great. So now we can have more incidents like Sen. Trotter, who fogrgot to unpack his gun while driving from Springfield to O’Hare after working his security job (supposedly, not saying I buy it). Now we can have all sorts of wonderful laws that conflict with each other in all sorts of wonderful counties and municipalities. Can you imagine something as simple as driving across the state to meet some friends for a hunting trip over the weekend? Or at a shooting range somewhere on the other side of the state? You would need a roadmap to the gun laws more than a roadmap to route. A lot of otherwise innocent people with no ill intent could wind up with criminal records thanks to braod local control on this one. - Mason born - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 11:58 am: Just I can second that sentiment that whoever is writing the e-mails needs to take a decent english comp class. Like you i agree with the positions but the tone is very off-putting. As for the polite thing that has been in the last half dozen or so i have seen. Ron pretty well sums up why people like me want a bill passed. Constitutional Carry sounds great in principle but we do want some REASONABLE restrictions as to background checks, training etc. The problem is a good reasonable bill was negotiated unfortunately those who have supported the ban somehow think that is the new starting point instead of the result of a lot of hard work at compromising. - Demoralized - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 12:02 pm: “fundamental civil right” Funny. I haven’t seen the Supreme Court case that declared concealed carry a fundamental right. Maybe they will but they haven’t. Speaking of hyperbole . . . - Wordslinger - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 12:12 pm: JJS, I think Justice Scalia can help you out here. From Heller: “Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues.” - John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 12:30 pm: Word: Illinois law is not just a concealed weapon prohibition. It is a prohibition on all carry. Now, how do YOU want carry in Illinois, open or concealed? On June 9, with no action by the GA, prohibition on any carry goes out the window, and you get both kinds. - Todd - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 12:33 pm: Word, knock it off. You selectivly quote Heller without the context. Try reading State v Reid which was cited by the court. But then that would require real work and study. - Slick Willy - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 12:35 pm: Formerly Known As… You would simply pull the magazine and case the gun. There is nothing being proposed that would change the current transport law. In fact, it will likely remain the de facto way to transport guns for everyone without a CC permit. That said, the local control argument is simply a back-door attempt at prohibiting carry all together. Get a county/may-issue model and no one in Chicago (except those that are connected, of course) will ever carry. - Wordslinger - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 12:44 pm: Todd, not sure what you mean. knock off quoting from the opinion? - Mason born - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 12:44 pm: Slick Pulling the mag won’t make you compliant. You would need to pull the weapon, clear the chamber, and put it in a case. to comply with current transport law. Talk about distracted driving. - Mason born - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 12:45 pm: Anyone want to bet Quinn thinks he can veto and then blame Lisa since she didn’t appeal it as he told her too? - Small Town Tax Payer - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 12:59 pm: As I see it, the bill currently being considered has two major faults. First is the matter of the home rule preemption. I agree with others that “one size fits all” is a bad idea in this case. All home rule units of government should have the option to decide for themselves what is best for their locality. Second is the part of the bill that states that “Signs stating that the carrying of a concealed firearm is prohibited shall be clearly and conspicuously posted at every entrance of a building or premises…” This wording means that those who like the status quo will need to pay for something they do not have now and do not want in the future. I think that it would be much better to have the signs at the entrance of a build that welcomes concealed firearms. Put the costs where the benefits are not the other way around. - Formerly Known As... - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 1:05 pm: To clarify: it is reasonable to see a future where some local areas would require the case to be in the “back seat”, others require it to be “out of the driver’s reach”, others “in the trunk”, others requiring cases of certain size, material or other requirements, others requiring the gun and magazine in “separate cases”, etc. Not necessarily for safety reasons per se, but simply because these are Illinois politicians we’re dealing with. Who knows what else they’ll come up with. Implementing common standards, whatever they may be, seems to make more sense. For example, I would argue the same for medical marijuana. Local control on that issue would likely also lead to a profligation of local differences and make criminals out of individuals who are truly doing their best to follow the rules and live their life without causing problems for themselves or others. Whatever the standards are, they should apply as equally as possible on this. - Slick Willy - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 1:10 pm: MB- No one with a shred of intelligence travels/carries a pistol with a round in the chamber. Doing so runs counter to firearm safety protocal and is simply asking for trouble. Just as Plaxico Burress. So, since there is not a round in the chamber, I simply drop the magazine/shells and throw it/them in the case with my gun. Easy, peasy, totally compliant with Illinois law concerning the transportation of firearms. Anything else? - Slick Willy - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 1:12 pm: ***Implementing common standards, whatever they may be, seems to make more sense.*** QFT. - Arthur Andersen - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 1:26 pm: “No one with a shred of intelligence travels/carries a pistol with a round in the chamber.” Must be a lot of dumb cops, FBI, etc. walking around like that. You do realize they were designed to work that way, John Wayne? - Todd - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 1:28 pm: Slick i don’t know anyone who DOESN’T caryy with a round in the chamber - Mason born - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 1:32 pm: Slick Where did you learn to carry Concealed?? What if you are carrying a revolver is the cylinder empty and a speed loader?? Not to get into details but if you are carrying a gun to protect your life or the lives of your loved ones you carry it in Condition 1. Otherwise known as Magazine inserted, Round in the chamber, Weapon on Safe (maybe 2 if using a 1911 but not advisable). Do you think the police carry with an Empty Chamber?? Does the Military?? As for Plaxico Burris you can’t fix stupid. This is one of the reason why ISRA and NRA want a bill carrying a loaded weapon requires a certain mindset if like Mr. Burris you don’t utilize that mindset you become a danger. Therefore Training is essential. - RonOglesby - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 1:34 pm: Slick Willy… If you carry you should have a round in the chamber, safety on. Its called condition 1 and is the normal carry condition for most weapons. Plaxico had a loaded handgun (maybe safety off maybe no safety) jammed down the front of his pants, with no holster… Then he stuck his finger in the trigger guard. He got what an untrained uneducated person gets: Negligent discharge. - Slick Willy - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 1:43 pm: Whether or not one should carry a round in the tube has been argued forever. Some argue that it is unsafe and an accident waiting to happen. Others argue that CC without one in the tube makes a gun nothing more than an expensive brick. Apparently, the crowd I shoot with is overly cautious. “To each his own”. - Mason born - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 1:50 pm: Slick So be it. I hope you never have to Rack that slide when your life is in danger. - RonOglesby - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 2:09 pm: Mason, Slick willy, or anyone carrying a firearm has to determine the way they will carry. One not in the chamber or one in the chamber has been debated in our community forever. Its not INVALID to carry with the chamber empty. You just have to practice that way. What I disagree with is stating one way is the only correct way, or saying responsible people carry ONLY this way… I carry one in the pipe. I always have. My neighbor a Fed carries on in the pipe only in a duty holster, but tucked “mexican” style we goes chamber empty. Personal preference and level of comfort. Ok. Sorry that turned into a gun forum debate here. Back to the Quinnisms - Mason born - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 2:26 pm: Ron You misunderstand my statement. Slick Willy can carry anyway he pleases he can take it apart and carry the slide in one pocket the frame in the other. I sincerely hope he never has to rack the slide just as i hope you never have to take yours off safe and the same way i pray i never again have to fire at a human being. Perhaps i appeared more strident than i intended. Reviewing the comment it does appear i am passing judgement Slick i am sorry. Slick’s safety is his business and he can provide for it in the way he wishes. - Mongo - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 2:28 pm: Is it really appropriate to compare a citizen carrying to a police officer or the military? Every time I see that comparison I tend to dismiss the remainder of the statement. Citizens are not cops. Citizens are not the military. If it was, here, just intended to add to the question of whether a round should be in the chamber or not, please clarify. - John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 2:30 pm: We COULD steer this back towards Quinn and local control… - RonOglesby - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 2:34 pm: Mongo, but what is the difference between the two groups? The Cops are not the military either. Being a vet I am sure I have trained more and fired more rounds in anger than 95% of cops that are not vets. Cops are citizens. That is all. They do not even have military level training with arms. They are primarily trained on a handgun, generally about a 40 hour course at the start of their career and they have to re-qual (not training mind you, qualification shoot) about 1 time per year. That last study I saw showed that like 80+% of cops never fire their weapons except on the day of their re-qual. Most have no more skills than most of the average gun guys out there. - Mason born - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 2:50 pm: MONGO In my example the comparison was as to the idea of carrying a weapon with an empty chamber. The corollary being both of those groups carry to protect their lives which is what a CCW holder is supposed to be doing. JJS I agree we need to get back to topic i apologize for the divergent path. Question JJS? Think Quinn can veto the bill saying it isn’t tough enough for him (like gambling) blame the unrestricted carry on the Madigans and then when the GA overturns the veto use it as a club that it is because Lisa didn’t appeal and MJM let a bill that wasn’t tough enough pass. - Mason born - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 2:50 pm: Should have said a club in the primaries. - RonOglesby - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 3:02 pm: Mason, Not sure its the right club in the primaries. She can hit back that by vetoing the bill he defacto let a ton of people carry without any additional training, testing, rules on where CCW is allowed, etc. She can say “Quinn said it would be the wild west, well guess what, his veto brought us exactly that!” - Mongo - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 3:25 pm: Ron and Mason… Mason, that’s what I asked, thanks for clarifying. Ron, I don’t fully agree. Police officers are citizens, yes, but have much more training and are sworn to uphold the law. Police officers have arrest powers, citizens don’t. Police officers have duties that a citizen does not have. Now back to Quinn. This latest statement is another example of him leading by confusion. If only we had a Governor who would work with the GA…I gotta admit I am a D but I long for Thompson and Edgar. - Mason born - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 3:30 pm: ron I agree she could come back with that but that would require Quinn to use logic something we have no proof of his proficiency at. - Rod - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 4:04 pm: I took the The Small Arms Master Marksmanship Course, or SAMMC, a two-week course offered by the US Army Combined Arms Training Center (CATC). This course was designed for non-combat arms soldiers and officers, I was in logistics. The first week was spent conducting hands on training in we learned to perform function checks, the functions of each weapons system and proper weapon safety. This included the M-9 pistol. I had to be able to assemble and disassemble six different weapons to make sure they were operational. In any situation where the combat use of the M-9 pistol might be required it was understood that there was a round in the chamber. Reloading is faster with a round in the chamber since time is not needed to release the slide. We were taught to count rounds shot and change magazines with one round left in them if at all possible so as not to run out of rounds in a combat situation. But in civilian life I would not leave a round in the chamber. I do not have the legal protections provided to me by the military in the situation of an error. Even at the risk of my life I would want the extra seconds to make sure I needed to actually take out a target. We were taught to hold our breath in a very specific manner and to maintain as calm a demeanor as possible. If I am in a reasonable proximity of my target I will destroy it. As I have posted before I do not intend to seek a concealed carry license, the liability issues weigh heavily on me especially after the Zimmerman case in FLA. But it seems to me that the tactical advantage is going to be with the individual who has been threatened and who is legally carrying a handgun. The criminal really is in greater danger than you are, chambering your weapon will take very little time and give your opponent a chance to retreat. - John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 4:07 pm: >>>>> She can say “Quinn said it would be the wild west, well guess what, his veto brought us exactly that!” We won’t have the wild west. >>>>>Police officers have arrest powers, citizens don’t. Citizens have arrest powers it just doesn’t play out very often outside of the scope of the security guard. - Mason born - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 4:11 pm: Rod A quick divergence but counting shots while someone is trying their damndest to kill you is kind of like shot placement in combat. It’s a swell idea but impractical as hell. That is why as an Infantry Marine we were taught to change mags at the conclusion of any fire fight. (of course not all at once) - Mason born - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 4:15 pm: JJS I think what Ron was reffering too was my contention Quinn may veto the bill for political advantage. In an attempt to club the baby Madigan (sorry couldn’t resist) with it. I.E. if she had only appealed etc… - Mongo - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 4:18 pm: John, I am aware of citizen arrest power. Aside from TV, I recall very few credible news reports of a citizen detaining a suspect until law enforcement arrives. I’ll amend my statement. Sworn officers have a duty to arrest if probable cause exists. A citizen has a permissive power of arrest, and is not required to exercise it. Now back to Quinn! - Arthur Andersen - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 4:36 pm: O/T, but whenever I hear the words “Citizen’s Arrest” I’m taken back to the episode of the Andy Griffith Show where Barney Fife stops Gomer Pyle for making a U-turn on Main Street in Mayberry. After Barney finishes writing Gomer a ticket and such, he pulls away and makes a U-ie, with Gomer in hot pursuit yelling “Citizen’s Arrest! U-Turn, Barney! Citizen’s Arrest!” all under the watchful eye of Sheriff Taylor. So that’s what I think about citizen’s arrest. To the post, do you want Andy Taylor or Barney Fife weighing in on your right to pack heat? - Mason born - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 4:44 pm: AA Barney no Andy if we put him in charge of the ISP then sure. - Mongo - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 4:45 pm: AA, LOL…and we do have Barney “Pat” Fife weighing in… There are, dang it, we want the Governor to lead. Not so today. - Mason born - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 4:45 pm: Just how fine is the line between Citizen arrest and Unlawful Detainment? Microns? - Mason born - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 4:51 pm: Mongo I was going to get on here and say how unfair it was to Dep. Fife to say Barney “Pat” Fife. However the more i think of it the more Apt it is. Mind if I borrow that? - Just The Way It Is One - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 7:19 pm: Like it or not, it’s clear a MAjor Battle will be fought over this issue, but Gov. Quinn and many others will no doubt vigorously pursue local authority creation of limitations and restrictions rather than a State-wide approach, if anything, to protect the primary source of his Constituency/vote support in Cook County, and more specifically, in Chicago. - Arthur Andersen - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 8:49 pm: Mason and Mango, borrow away. Just the Way, agree 100%. - RonOglesby - Wednesday, Apr 10, 13 @ 11:05 pm: I’ll just leave it that I have fired more rounds in anger than 99+% of sworn police officers. so assuming a 40 hour course at the ISP makes them better than me with a weapon is simply an argument based in ignorance of the realities of police training. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.