48 Comments - HenryVK - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 10:08 am: Expect to see a lot of people diagnosed with fibromyalgia. It is pretty much just a bundle of subjective symptoms. - just sayin' - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 10:14 am: completely missing the point. mary jane use remains a serious crime under federal law. shameful for a state to mislead its citizens into thinking that something passed in springpatch eliminates all risk of prosecution. old hippies need to grow up. - RonOglesby - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 10:14 am: The FDA is half about drug regulation and half political. If it wasnt it would treat marijuana like any other drug. Or alcohol for that matter. he just doesnt want to vote for it is taking the local pols way out “it wasnt me! it was the Feds!” - CircularFiringSquad - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 10:15 am: GmanJim is a real hoot. Can’t believe he accepts the Obama FDA as gospel. - Chicago Cynic - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 10:15 am: I support the medical marijuana, but it’s undeniable that in other states, this has been severely abused. The most persuasive argument about the abuse I’ve seen is that the vast majority of chronic pain sufferers are women but the vast majority of medical marijuana prescribed for chronic pain has gone to men. I’m just saying if we aren’t going to legalize, then let’s have pretty tight restrictions. - Been There - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 10:17 am: You should re-post that photo of Jimmy from a caption contest a year or so ago. When he was the auctioneer at the Sportsman’s caucus event. His doctor might qualify him just based on the picture. - wordslinger - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 10:18 am: I’m sure Jimmy could get a doctor to prescribe a lot stronger skull-poppers than marijuana. The MS and chemo patients pushing this want to take fewer, hard, addictive, prescription drugs. What’s so hard to understand? - Amalia - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 10:20 am: my body is so much happier with farm products and not pharma products. and no, HenryVK, fibromyalgia is not to be discussed so flippantly. - Arthur Andersen - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 10:24 am: Henry, probably a good idea to avoid armchair medicine here, just saying. One man’s headache is another’s disability. - soccermom - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 10:31 am: I can’t believe it, but I sort of agree with Sacia. It would be really useful if people could have some kind of assurance that what they think they’re buying is, in fact, what they’re buying. The FDA is not doing a great job on that currently, but it’s better than nothing. - Ghost - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 10:33 am: I was too busy sipping bourbon while taking my legally prescribed oxy to listen to the debates. Btw oxy is available with a single doctor visit, no history etc etc. so what are we protecting against? Pharmaceutical companies and doctor feel goods losing out on the prescription pain killer market? Off to the liquor store. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 10:39 am: ===It would be really useful if people could have some kind of assurance that what they think they’re buying is, in fact, what they’re buying.=== Addressed in the bill. - walkinfool - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 10:46 am: regulate it, tax it, require production, purity, and potency standards for safety and consistency in other words: treat it like we do alcohol products and decriminalize it entirely to continue on this path of using its potential benefits as unregulated folk medicine is disingenous, and will eventually fail as the goalposts shift. - Fed up - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 11:03 am: Do not believe at all in weed as a medicine, but do think it should be legalized and regulated. - MrJM - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 11:05 am: old hippies need to grow up. And old prohibitionists need to save it for their Temperance Union meetings. – MrJM - MrJM - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 11:07 am: Do not believe at all in weed as a medicine Fortunately, medical science is not a matter of faith. – MrJM - HenryVK - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 11:10 am: AA, I’m not sure how your post relates to mine. Are there any objective findings for it? There really are not. Usually it is a doctor saying “we don’t know what is wrong, so we are just going to call it this.” It is bundle of subjective finding. It is currently abused in personal injury litigation. I expect that it will be “abused” medicinal marijuana. It doesn’t bother me that it is being abused in this case since I find the laws against the drug to be pretty stupid anyway. I’m just pointing out what will happen. - Anonymous - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 11:14 am: === Also, the Department of Public Health can only issue permission after doing several things, including this… confirm that the physician and patient have a bona fide physician-patient relationship, that the qualifying patient is in the physician’s care for his or her debilitating medical condition, and to substantiate the patient’s diagnosis === This is where I think the whole problem lies with this legislation. I don’t think DPH is capable of administering this program nor will they be given sufficient resources to do so. If it passes, look for the articles on how it’s hard to get approval. Worse yet, that permission will be granted without any real review because of the Department’s desire to avoid criticism for not implementing the law. - olddog - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 11:17 am: @ HenryVK Maybe you need to learn something about fibromyalgia before you embarrass yourself again. You can start here … http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/fibromyalgia/DS00079 - Bongy the Pothead Python - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 11:20 am: What walkinfool said. - HenryVK - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 11:22 am: Old Dog, could you point to anything objective in that article you posted? Did you even read your own article? It is all subjective, making it easy to abuse. “I hurt! I can’t sleep! I’m angry!” That’s pretty much the criteria. Just like I said above. Nice insult though, Old Dog. Great to see you going after me personally because you don’t like the point I’m making. Stay classy, OD. - Anon III - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 11:33 am: Intractable pain can come to a very bad end. I have seen fibromyalgia bring a couple to murder and suicide. There are diagnostic criteria for Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy, RSD (Complex Regional Pain Syndromes Type I), Causalgia, and CRPS (Complex Regional Pain Syndromes Type II). A physician must observe the signs and symptoms. These are not simply subjective complaints. I have no idea if marijuana will alleviate or exacerbate these conditions, but no one should make light of other people’s suffering. - HenryVK - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 11:53 am: Really A3? Based on what objective criteria did you come to that conclusion? Did it show up in a blood test? Did an MRI reveal it? What was the basis of that diagnosis? Other than subjective reports from the patient, as I noted above? - Michael Westen - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 12:01 pm: I say any grown adult who refers to himself in the third person, let alone refers to himself as “Jimmy,” reveals himself to be the tool that he is without further debate. - wordslinger - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 12:10 pm: –I say any grown adult who refers to himself in the third person, let alone refers to himself as “Jimmy,”– One of the best Seinfeld’s ever. “Jimmy’s down! Jimmy’s gonna get you, Kramer! Let go of Jimmy! Don’t touch Jimmy!” - muon - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 12:14 pm: The claim that the list of ailments for which cannabis can be recommended is not limited to those listed in the bill. Section 45 provides for the Department of Public Health to add additional ailments to the list. Nothing prevents chronic pain from being added by this process. Section 45. Addition of debilitating medical conditions. Any citizen may petition the Department of Public Health to add debilitating conditions or treatments to the list of debilitating medical conditions listed in subsection (h) of Section 10. The Department of Public Health shall consider petitions in the manner required by Department rule, including public notice and hearing. The Department shall approve or deny a petition within 180 days of its submission, and, upon approval, shall proceed to add that condition by rule in accordance with the Administrative Procedure Act. The approval or denial of any petition is a final decision of the Department, subject to judicial review. Jurisdiction and venue are vested in the Circuit Court. - hisgirlfriday - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 12:25 pm: Jimmy should run for Congress if he wants to dictate what the FDA does. - hisgirlfriday - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 12:31 pm: Happened across the Ken Burns Prohibition doc on youtube over the weekend and found our history with alcohol illuminating on the current debate over marijuana. Something I never realized or thought much about was the old Volstead Act had medical exceptions for the ban on booze that of course got used and abused just like some medical marijuana programs. It seems to me that its just a fact of life that every prohibitive law whether its booze or pot or gambling or smoking or now drinking pop is going to have people who cheat the system. That’s just what happens when the state polices sins in human beings who have free will. - hold on - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 12:40 pm: Henry, do you believe that broken bones existed before x-ray machines could prove it? Were there herniated discs before MRIs and CT scans? Leukemia before blood tests? Back then, weren’t patients just saying “It hurts, and I can’t move my __.” Totally subjective–just a bunch of whiners, fakers, malingerers trying to cash in. - hold on - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 12:43 pm: Jimmy wants to cede Jimmy’s state’s authority to the federal government? - dupage dan - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 12:55 pm: You can imamgine, hgf, that even after the Vostead Act was repealed, that there were folks who were denied the right to engage in “free will” involving alcohol. In Illinois, a person is considered an adult when they reach 18 - they can purchase a car, a house - sign up to fight for our nation. Everything except purchase alcohol. I was a young man when they changed the drinking age from 21 to 18 when I lived in Wisconsin. a half dozen of my friends now reside in a cemetery after having died in car accidents directly as a result of drinking legally but driving illegally. We make choices and draw lines in the sand. Free will can include using drugs far more dangerous than alcohol or pot - and some here have advocated legalizing them, too. Just where would YOU draw the line? - wordslinger - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 1:00 pm: DD, are you seriously comparing the addictive and destructive potential of alcohol to marijuana? Based on what? - olddog - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 1:43 pm: @ HenryVK 11:22 a.m. My apologies if you took my post as a personal attack — I certainly didn’t mean it that way. But I still think the way you dismiss fibromyalgia as “all subjective” and “easy to abuse” unfairly stigmatizes a real medical condition. You asked me to “point to anything objective in that article you posted.” It was the Mayo Clinic’s overview of the causes, symptoms, diagnosis and treatment of fibromyalgia, which it defines as “a disorder characterized by widespread musculoskeletal pain accompanied by fatigue, sleep, memory and mood issues. Researchers believe that fibromyalgia amplifies painful sensations by affecting the way your brain processes pain signals.” I’m not a medical doctor, so I relied on the Mayo Clinic’s reputation in the community for providing accurate, objective information about medical issues. - Ahoy! - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 1:43 pm: First off I should say that I believe marijuana should be legalized and we should treat addiction as a mental health issue. This would at least help our over crowding prison system and help those who might have been previously arrested live better lives. Second, since it’s not going to be legalized, we should treat marijuana as we do all other drugs, someone can also lie to their doctor about needing pain killers Mr. Sacia. - HenryVK - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 1:53 pm: Thanks for that explanation, OD. For what it is worth, I’ve spent way too much of my life either deposing doctors or cross-examining them in cases where a plaintiff claims to have suffered fibromyalgia from an accident. Is it a real condition? You got me. I tend to think the that symptoms seem similar to depression in certain cases and that in other cases they may be fabricated. But that’s my view on a condition where medical evidence is undecided. What is clear though is that there are no objective signs. It is not like cancer where you can put something under a microscope and confirm the existence. If somebody wanted to fake illness to get the drug, that would be one where a patient, with or without a friendly doctor, would be able to make the case. Since I think the drug should be legalized anyway, the fact that somebody is faking illness to get it is not a big deal to me. By the way, did I mention that my back hurts? And I had trouble sleeping last night. And come to think of it, that cab driver really slammed on his brakes hard this morning. Let’s see if I kept the number of that cab . . . - soccermom - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 2:30 pm: Henry VK, there are lots and lots of real illnesses that don’t show up in blood tests or on MRIs. Depression, MS (can be very hard to diagnose between flares) — hell, my friend had Creutzfeld-Jacob Disease (the human version of mad cow) and it didn’t show up in tests, even though it was real enough to kill her. Are there people who fake illnesses? Sure. Are there real illnesses that medicine can’t diagnose with certainty? Absolutely, and those people deserve treatments for their symptoms while the researchers look for the cause. - Just Observing - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 2:32 pm: === “I’m 69. I’ve got a few maladies … I bet I could convince my doctor I’m in worse shape than I really am” to get some marijuana. === “I’m 69. I’ve got a few maladies … I bet I could convince my doctor I’m in worse shape than I really am” to get some XANAX.” “I’m 69. I’ve got a few maladies … I bet I could convince my doctor I’m in worse shape than I really am” to get some VALIUM.” And the list goes on… - HenryVK - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 2:42 pm: Soccermom, And that’s relevant to what I wrote why? How does that prove or disprove any point that I’ve made? - Ghost - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 2:53 pm: HenryVK there are some tests for fibromyalgia. But you need a real expert. Springfield used to have dr. Traycof to do em. He basically had two tools. One he would do nerve blocks to the effected area. If the pain went away, it was physical, if not it was mental. (Like phantom leg pain, not necessarily faked etc). Second he had very high end scanners that could detect inflamed tissue from heat. This test is replicated and abused by man doctors and chirpeoxators, but tray of had the real deal. He would find a lot of folks who had no biological evidence for their pain, but he found several where he did verify a biological source to the pain. Yes fibromyalgia is an abused diagnosis, but it can be verified . - reformer - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 2:57 pm: Conservatives like Sacia are usually big proponents of States’ Rights. Yet Sacia wants the Feds to trump the States on marijuana. I guess States’ Rights matter only when convenient. - HenryVK - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 3:06 pm: Interesting, Ghost. Of course, Mayo Clinic doesn’t buy it. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/fibromyalgia/DS00079/DSECTION=tests-and-diagnosis Over the years, we’ve seen a lot of guys (usually hired by the plaintiff’s attorney) claim to have some objective test. None of them have ever been valid. Sometimes a jury believes their guy. Sometimes they believe our guy. But so far, the medical community has not agreed on any objective tests or findings. - Julia - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 3:37 pm: No “regulated” drug that can be easily grown anywhere in the state is going to be controlled. Just consider the California silliness.Just be honest and legalize it,with no restrictions.Then give it 3 years and evaluate the situation.This could be an economic boon to the state just in tourism and perhaps sales tax.Feds won’t be happy,but it might work with the present administration. - Palos Park Bob - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 4:28 pm: I love it when a list of very specific ailments is listed as being “required” for obtaining a drug, then one simple “ailment” is included that can make virtually anyone eligible for it. I can see how “residual limb pain” could be impossible to disprove or diagnose. It’s kinda like using “back pain” as justification for getting disability. There’s usually no scientific way to prove or disprove it. Sometimes it’s horribly real, sometime it’s a scam. BTW, friends in California, where the laws are much more liberal, tell me the medical marijuana is far more potent than stuff on the streets. The “resale” market and Medicaid abuse to get it will be something to behold! Also please remember that once this Bill is on the books,things will be added to this list to increase eligibility. After the first passage, changes will just be rubber stamped… - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 4:31 pm: ===I can see how “residual limb pain” could be impossible to disprove or diagnose.=== Yes, because there are literally millions of Illinois amputees who’d be scamming the system. Get real, man. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 4:41 pm: ==== After the first passage, changes will just be rubber stamped=== The bill has a four-year sunset clause. - Rich Miller - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 4:44 pm: Seriously, the lengths some will go to deride this legislation is just ridiculous. If you’re against it, be against it. Don’t try to nitpick it if you’d never be for it. That’s dishonest. - Anonymous - Monday, Apr 22, 13 @ 5:43 pm: Jimmy likes Elaine. Jimmy isn’t threatened by Hank’s homosexuality. Jimmy is happy for Hank. Don’t touch JIMMY!!!! - Northern Light - Tuesday, Apr 23, 13 @ 12:04 am: Henry VK - You don’t know what you are talking about and you obviously know nothing about fibromyalgia syndrome. The criteria for diagnosis is the number of trigger points that are painful when palpated. The criteria were developed by Dr. Muhammed Yunus of the Ambulatory Clinic in Peoria. He is widely recognized as the preeminent expert in fibromyalgia and his diagnostic criteria were accepted by the American College of Rheumatology. It is indeed a real disease and yes, there is YET no blood test or MRI diagnostic test - like many illnesses. It is a constellation of symptoms - not just trigger point pain but other neurological and muscular abnormalities. Sufferers have had to endure the early skepticism of the medical community for years until the last decade or so. They shouldn’t have to put up with the ignorance of people who have other reasons to attack it - like litigation as you alluded to. If you don’t like the Mayo Clinic, there are national organizations, like the Arthritis Foundation, National Fibromyalgia Association and the foremost patient association authority the Fibromyalgia Network. As to depression - you are again wrong….see Normand E, et al. “Pain Inhibition Is Deficient in Chronic Widespread Pain but Normal in Major Depressive Disorder” Journal of Clinical Psychiatry 2010; DOI: 10.4088/JCP.08m04969blu. Can fibromyalgia and pain itself be subjective and used to game the system? Maybe, but before you make sweeping assumptions about something you don’t know anything about, at least educate yourself! Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.