64 Comments - Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 9:55 am: I don’t know if this is snark or not, so however anyone reads this is probably right about how I mean it; Is the Chicago Tribune printing on “tin foil” to make hats more readily available? - Cassiopeia - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 9:55 am: I believe that Madigan and Cullerton have a sincere philosophical disagreement on how to proceed and it is tempered by concern with putting their respective members at political risk by certain votes. This is also effected by Madigan’s dislike of the AFSCME leadership. Having said that they are in a bind on how to proceed next week and I think the prospects for success are dim. - Arthur Andersen - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 9:58 am: @FakeColonelTribune We thought you wouldn’t notice my tinfoil hat if I colored it to look like newspaper #WillyIsNoDope - Anon. - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:01 am: You heard it here first! In Illinois, failure is not only an option, it’s the preferred choice! My own pet conspiracy theory is that Baghdad Bob is alive and working in the States, and I see this editorial as confirmation that he’s actually at the Tribune. - ejhickey - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:02 am: Why don’t The Big Three just admit thet can’t get anything done , the State needs more money and go ahead and raise taxes across the board and be done with it? - Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:06 am: @FakeWilliard_Blank - Hey, @FakeColonelTribune, I “caught on” while wrapping up a dead fish to send a “message” & changed my mind sending it. #FishInFoilOnTheGrillIsTasty - CalltheMovers - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:08 am: Yesterday, a Trib editorial took Chicago’s park district to the wood shed for not opening its swimming pools in late May, like its suburban counterparts. The esteemed editorial board failed to realize a state law forbids opening a public pool when public school’s open. - Urbs In Horto - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:10 am: This (plus the NYT crossword) is why I get the Sun Times. - Montrose - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:10 am: “And there’s plenty of suspicion that good buddies Madigan and Cullerton aren’t really at impasse, they’re just gaming everybody; failure, for some reason, suits them. What few know is that Cullerton is actually Lisa Madigan’s biological father, and that he and Mike Madigan have been plotting since her birth to anoint her Governor of Illinois, and they explicitly created the pension crisis for this purpose, and Madigan failed to push the marriage equality bill for the same reason, and the Black Caucus is in on this master plan, and Greg Harris is secretly Lisa Madigan’s twin brother.” #OccomsRazor - Diogenes in DuPage - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:12 am: The Chicago Tribune has become irrelevant. Rich, you may be just one of a handful of people still reading its editorials. They have flip-flopped so dramatically and frequently on this topic in the last two years, Sybil must be a new addition to their editorial board. - wizard - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:13 am: urbs-the patternless one is good also - biased observer - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:14 am: well….I have to admit, I don’t like the tone of the part of the article which rich excerpted. It is a bit sketch. The most that the trib could have said is Madigan and cullerton both passed legislation in their respective houses to give their supermajority democratic members cover during the next election, when it is likely to be a major issue, even though they “knew” it would not be passed in the other legislative body. but even that is probably a stretch. I think the trib should have left that paragraph out and the remainder of the article (I recommend that all read the ENTIRE article) is accurate and appropriate. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:17 am: –And there’s plenty of suspicion that good buddies Madigan and Cullerton aren’t really at impasse, they’re just gaming everybody; failure, for some reason, suits them.– Where did they come up with this? Bohemian Grove? The grassy knoll? The Trilateral Commission? How does such nonsense get printed in a big-city newspaper? - Dirty Red - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:19 am: = #FishInFoilOnTheGrillIsTasty = Watch that become the subject of the next Kass column. - Wensicia - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:20 am: I still believe the editorial page should be reduced to a comic strip and sent to that section of the paper. A Madigan and Cullerton conspiracy? LOL - Wumpus - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:26 am: What are they going to do, vote for someone else? hahaha - archimedes - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:26 am: Read the whole editorial. It is an editorial - not an article. It has many parts that are not accurate - where do I start? “Independent assessments find the Cullerton plan falls woefully short to solve the pension crisis.” It isn’t a pension crisis (the normal cost of the pension systems is entirely affordable) - the debt to the systems is a budget crisis. And neither plan solves the budget crisis. Both are woefully short if the intent is to offset the loss in income tax in 2015. “If the madigan plan doesn’t pass muster - the Cullerton plan is not a suitable backup, it wouldn’t come close.” Hey Trib - if the courts find that the State can’t exercise police power (Madigan plan), the Cullerton plan is probably the very best you can do. You wonder if they have any understanding of what is going on. - ejhickey - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:29 am: sorry for the double post. computer problem. ay way to delete one of them? - Tom S. - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:29 am: To the average, only partially engaged voter, Madigan and Cullerton look really bad right now. Madigan has never really cared how he’s viewed by anyone outside his neighborhood, caucus, and the Springfield power elite. But the more negatively he’s viewed by the general public the more he hurts his daughter. My sense is Cullerton does care how he’s viewed and he is starting to get worry about how crappy the General Assembly’s reputation has become. If a throw-the-bums-out mentality takes hold, his 40 vote majority will begin to erode first. Hence, this Tribune-backed conspiracy theory that the two are engaged in a secret effort to accomplish nothing is hogwash. Here’s what’s really happening: both are just following their natural political and personal modus operande. Cullerton wants to split the difference and cut a deal. Madigan has made his mind up that the amended SB1 is the way to go and can’t understand why everyone won’t get into line. - langhorne - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:32 am: the trib editorial is a bunch of pond scum — the shiny green algae slime that floats to the surface and grows when given conditions of lack of oxygen and movement. (okay, thats way over the top) but we do need some oxygen and movement. the trib editorial board is so wrapped up w wanting a “meaningful solution” they ignore that it has to be CONSTITUTIONAL, and the state still needs to meet its obligation to employees and retirees. it is not a matter of just picking an assortment of benefits or cost drivers to cut to add up to your desired total wiping out a big percent of the total. it is madigan who needs to take a breath and move his position. he is incapable of doing so, bec he doesnt want to allow cullerton and the unions a victory. he is relying on his preamble to his bill to scare up 4 votes on the bench. he has shown what a few mil can do in a SC race–he could get Oscar elected. failure doesnt suit madigan at all, winning on his terms suits him. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:36 am: ===and the remainder of the article (I recommend that all read the ENTIRE article) is accurate and appropriate. === LOL Um, no it ain’t: Don’t graft the Cullerton bill onto the Madigan bill because if the Madigan bill is found unconstitutional we’ll get the Cullerton bill, which doesn’t do enough. Nevermind that if the MJM bill is found unconstitutional we’d be left with nothing on the books. And nevermind that the MJM bill, even tweaked a bit, can’t pass the Senate. - CircularFiringSquad - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:38 am: Capt Fax: As we were saying to Oscar The Dog just the other day, your recent poll showed the Tribbies have had little impact since they were caught playing footsies with Blagoof. The bankruptcy and ESOP scandal was the very end of their credibility Furthermore their shifting positions demonstrate how little public finance information they understand. Letting the finger wagging, name callers write the stuff does no good either. It is also worth noting that even in their hey days editorial were read by less than 30 per cent of those who got the paper. They consistently fail to understand major difference exist on the pension issue. Many legislators see the problem as one of additional revenue. Wing nutters demand pensions be abolished and replaced with Green Stamps or 401Ks. They fail to understand 401Ks mean no more payments to existing funds and a faster collapse. The Tribbies were riding the Corporate Reformer House until they concluded that group had little impact. Now they support the “Madigan Plan” ( pretty funny given the millions spent on the failed effort to trash the speaker) Never forget reading the Tribbie edit page are minutes you can never recover - Six Degrees of Separation - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:43 am: @biased observer, Rich reads the Trib editorials so I don’t have to. - dupage dan - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:52 am: I read some of the responses to the article. It shows why the Tribune thinks this is legit. The vast majority of the responses are from folks who agree with the editoral. The Tribune is only mirroring what their readers already believe. In fact, I would suggest that the editorials are now being written by the readers. Another money saver and the subscribers are ignorant - they pay to read what they wrote. - titan - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 10:57 am: From the Trib: === We know this: If the Madigan pension plan didn’t pass muster with the courts, the Cullerton plan would not be a suitable backup. It would not solve the pension crisis. It wouldn’t come close. === So, the Trib is saying that if the bold (and inarguably on shaky constitutional grounds) is indeed declared unconstitutional, a less bold plan shouldn’t be done (because it doesn’t go as far as the Trib thinks it should)? If the Madigan Plan were found unconstitutional, it would mean the Trib was wrong and some other way (one that is legal) would be needed to deal with the state’s financial - and that other (legal) way would have to pull money from other places to cover what was going to be (ilegally) pulled from the employees/pensioners. - Norseman - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 11:08 am: SixDS has it right. Thanks for your selfless sacrafice, Rich. - Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 11:15 am: - Dirty Red -, If Kass is interested, I have a certain way I prepare it, but it does NOT involve beer, or a beer can and the fish. The only beer involved is in my hand as i grill it. - Calhoun Native - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 11:17 am: The Trib is all over the place these days. I think they have a short term memory problem. I listened the the press conference clip yesterday. Thanks for posting it. I don’t know Mike Madigan and I really don’t understand his game here, if there is one, but from where I sit he just seems stubborn beyond all reason. - illinifan - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 11:21 am: Let’s sell the Trib and then put the money into the pension funds for state employees….at least in some way this would be more constructive than what they are currently suggesting - John - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 11:36 am: It is very obvious that Madigan is playing politics with Quinn, whether his daughter runs for Governor or not. - lake county democrat - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 11:40 am: The Tribune is right. Carol Marin, who hinted the same thing, is right. Laura Washington is right. In a public tweet to me, David McKinney of the Sun-Times said while Madigan denies, it can’t be discounted. But Rich pronounces it inane on the basis that they tied up their staffs. Except their staffs would have had to put in a lot of the same work to come up with whatever legislation they would agree on: it’s not like they were going to let Quinn write the legislation. The other evidence this is inane: they publicly insulted each other. Meanwhile, Madigan has achieved exactly what a conspiracy theory would have predicted he would want: to have someone else seen as controlling the pension issue and to avoid having the kinds of cuts the unions couldn’t abide by. Even if they do the “pass the house bill with senate bill as backup” he can achieve this once the courts strike the house bill. And, of course, no achievement for Pat Quinn, just - coincidentally - like with gay marriage, the other high profile issue. - biased observer - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 11:42 am: SixDs, haha. love it! - biased observer - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 11:51 am: Rich, I think the argument the trib was making was that passing the cullerton bill would only create a false sense that something had been done which significantly addresses the fiscal gap. This would in fact create more problems for the state of Illinois because it might delay passing substantive reform. Look I see this situation as an impasse that will not improve until genuine crisis ensues. The democratic supermajority is caught in a really difficult situation in which doing the right thing (really the only thing which can solve this problem, substantial pension reform) puts them at loggerheads with their longtime political support and base. I think the bottom line of the tribune article, though perhaps poorly expressed at times, is wasting time on cullerton in any way is detrimental to the state of Illinois because it does not substantively address the issue. it only pacifies a constituency (unions) but almost all of the financial pressure which caused this will remain unabated if cullerton passes. - Harry - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 11:54 am: The Trib was out of line, imputing motives to Madigan and Cullerton. If the Trib has reason to believe they (M & C) are gaming us, they should state it, otherwise it’s just speculation, and pretty stupid at that. - GoRich! - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 11:54 am: “Yeah, they’ve deliberately tied up their most important employees and wasted thousands of staff hours for three solid years on a mere ploy.” EXACTLY!! It would be helpful if they would use logic before they write such crappy stories. - biased observer - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 11:54 am: that argument, that cullerton is functionally non-substantive, is not irrational. there is room for disagreement certainly, I mean cullerton will result in some savings, just not enough. its like your surgeon telling you, i’m going to go in and remove one third of the tumor today….in a year or two we will go and get the rest. - Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 11:57 am: - lake county democrat -, Your Tribune ‘Paper/Tin Foil’ hat is ready. ===Except their staffs would have had to put in a lot of the same work to come up with whatever legislation they would agree on: it’s not like they were going to let Quinn write the legislation.=== So the time, in this “theory”, was to produce an impasse, 3 years in the making for this ONE moment? Does printer’s ink stay ON tin foil? - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 12:00 pm: ===I think the argument the trib was making was that passing the cullerton bill would only create a false sense that something had been done which significantly addresses the fiscal gap. This would in fact create more problems for the state of Illinois because it might delay passing substantive reform.=== Well, if it is, then that’s really stupid. If MJM’s bill can’t pass constitutional muster, then what “substantive reform” that the Trib could back can do so? - Cook County Commoner - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 12:01 pm: The tenacity with which the taciturn Speaker Madigan adheres to his position on pensions is scary. The Trib spin is ludicrous. I suspect the Speaker and many other pols have numbers and projections, including general future economic activity in Illinois, which could give fiscal seizures to most. I suspect the projections on pensions in the public domain may be rosy compared to what the Speaker may be looking at. - Skeptic - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 12:02 pm: Alex Jones writes for the Trib now? - Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 12:03 pm: ===…create a false sense that something had been done which significantly addresses the fiscal gap.=== “Never mistake activity for achievement.” - John Wooden - Cincinnatus - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 12:09 pm: Question to RNUG: Setting aside the constitutional issues with the Madigan plan, in your opinion do the numbers work to save the system or is the plan just eyewash? - Copperhead - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 12:10 pm: @ Skeptic Alex Jones? No, it’s Michael Moore. - b - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 12:13 pm: sb 2404 is the bill the unions like right? It just got out of Rules.. - biased observer - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 12:14 pm: Rich, I don’t really care what bill the trib backs. The only time I read the trib is when you post links on here. it doesn’t cover my geographical area. I’m just giving my interpretation of how I read that particular editorial. What I care about is solutions that can get Illinois out of this fiscal abyss. For one (including the trib) to argue that time shouldn’t be wasted on Cullerton because it doesn’t do enough is not crazy. Obviously many people on this site disagree with that, but it isn’t a crazy notion. If Madigan can’t pass constitutional muster, does it help the state to pass a bill which does pass constitutional muster, but doesn’t really substantively help the financial abyss? This is why many people including myself are pretty pessimistic anything will be accomplished on this issue in any sort of pre-emptive way. - b - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 12:16 pm: ***with a HA I should add*** - 47th Ward - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 12:28 pm: ===failure, for some reason, suits them.=== Yes, it is well known in certain circles that Madigan and Cullerton are really doing the bidding of Rich Miller, whose website depends on traffic from new page views. Keeping the pension crisis alive is the best thing that’s happened to Capitol Fax since Blagojevich was arrested. - Norseman - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 12:46 pm: B is right. Took a quick - and I mean quick look - and it appears that Madigan is simply replacing it with the amended SB 1. On to the post, I think the Trib might be on to the real issue here. Mike and John want the impasse to drive down the ratings down so when it’s at junk status, they can corner the market on Illinois bonds and charge such high rates of interest they will become billionaires. When Mike has enough money, he and John will foreclose and Mike will give the state to Lisa as a birthday present. Lisa will then bring in Harry Potter to fix the place up. Well it’s plausible, maybe, could be, really, believe it. - biased observer - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 12:48 pm: norseman. love it. - railrat - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 12:54 pm: Rich could the trib board be trying to “scare” off the Koch Bros.? has there been any UFO sightings over the loop lately? - Demoralized - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 12:59 pm: @biased observer: The perfect is the enemy of the good. To suggest that no plan is better is ludicrous. - anon - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 1:06 pm: Looks like Cook County is hoping to piggyback on any State cuts. Check the agenda for the next Board meeting. http://legacy.cookcountygov.com/secretary/committees/Finance/Pension/Pension.html - biased observer - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 1:12 pm: the main reason that unions are supporting sb2404 is because it has less financial impact on their pensions than Madigan’s proposal. it is interesting I think, because based upon the unions own “unconstitutional” claims (which may or may not be correct, we will probably see), Cullerton’s bill is just as unconstitutional as Madigan’s. I mean they both result in diminishment of benefits, right. Just cullerton’s is much less diminishment than Madigan’s. So the unions are saying “it’s okay to pass this unconstitutional bill (Cullerton) because we can live with it, but don’t pass the Madigan’s unconstitutional bill because we can’t. the constitutionality element of this debate is much less important than the politics of it. it will be interesting to see it play out. - RNUG - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 1:24 pm: Cincinnatus @ 12:09 pm: If you believe the Martire numbers (and I do), the only difference between the Cullerton plan and the Madigan plan is whether you have to raise taxes next year or in a couple of years. Neither one addresses the fundamental lack of revenue issues or the desire (and actual action) to keep spending funds the State does not have on items to get politicians re-elected. - reformer - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 1:41 pm: Even if the Madigan bill passed and was upheld, state finances would face another crisis in 2015 when the temporary income tax hike mostly expires. Since even a Democrat (Daley) is “absolutely against” extending it, the next crisis is readily predictable. - Old and In The Way - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 1:45 pm: - biased observer - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 1:12 pm: the main reason that unions are supporting sb2404 is because it has less financial impact on their pensions than Madigan’s proposal. it is interesting I think, because based upon the unions own “unconstitutional” claims (which may or may not be correct, we will probably see), Cullerton’s bill is just as unconstitutional as Madigan’s. I mean they both result in diminishment of benefits, right. Just cullerton’s is much less diminishment than Madigan’s. Wrong. There are substantial differences in their approach as well as their level of diminishment. SB1 is a unilateral act of diminishment, pure ans simple. The police powers subterfuge doesn’t pass muster on the face of the GA increasing spending by almost $2 B in the current budget. How can pensions be diminishing spending when you are increasing spending? SB2404 uses the premise of trading considerations within contract law. The pensions are in fact a contractual obligation and no one even disputes that fact. At the core SB 2404 “saves” less because the unions would not “trade” more for less! Both are unconstitutional on their face. The police powers argument falls way short as I have stated. SB 2404 ignores another basic premise of contract law and that is that neither party may force a decision. In other words maintaining the status quo is an inherent option. It may come down to the Maag and Marconi suits now in the Iillinois Supreme Court. My guess? It’s back to the drawing board for all three diminishments…… BTW lost in all of this is the very scary precedent that allowing either ill to be found valid…….that ANY contract with the State of Illinois can be diminished or abrogated at the whim of the GA! Try selling bonds or entering into contract after that nightmare……..better to suck it up and pay your debts! - Mason born - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 2:16 pm: –BTW lost in all of this is the very scary precedent that allowing either ill to be found valid…….that ANY contract with the State of Illinois can be diminished or abrogated at the whim of the GA! Try selling bonds or entering into contract after that nightmare……..better to suck it up and pay your debts! – I have always wondered how Madigan intends to prevent that clear realization. I do believe something has to change yet if the one contract which is specifically protected in the State Constitution can be modified at the Legislatures whim how is any other contract secure?? What is to keep MJM from saying “Sorry about the Millions in product we received from you but hey we will pay you 10k sorry we are broke.”? - Andrew Szakmary - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 2:26 pm: To illustrate the extremeness of the Madigan Bill, lets put it in perspective. It cuts the present value of my future pension benefits by a minimum of 21%. Cullerton’s bill (if I keep the health care) cuts the present value of my benefits by perhaps 5-6%. Obama’s proposal to index Social Security benefits to the chained CPI instead of the CPIW reduces the present value of the benefit stream for current retirees under SS by around 2-3%. And Madigan is shocked that he is having difficulty getting this through the Senate? Try proposing a 21% cut in SS benefits for current retirees in Congress and see how many votes you would get? - dupage dan - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 2:39 pm: And therein lies the reason, RNUG, why the GA won’t ever consider Martire - the fact that they should be effectively barred from using the (my) pension fund as a piggy bank. - Just The Way It Is One - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 6:35 pm: Well, nothin’s impossible, but, yeah, you’re right on this one, Rich, I agree–they’ve pretty much lost it…(although they’re not far off about one thing–that no matter what, Madigan is back to his usual, ego-power trip thing again, and one way or another is playing games with others and the System (take a look at that diabolical expression on his face in yesterday’s Chicago SUN-TIMES, page 2 following Monday’s meeting with the Governor on pensions–scary-lookin’, Real scary; he’s got SOMEthin’ up his sleeve, as today’s development re. Sen. Cullerton’s Bill suggested in advance)…! - Anon. - Wednesday, Jun 12, 13 @ 8:51 pm: ==The democratic supermajority is caught in a really difficult situation in which doing the right thing (really the only thing which can solve this problem, substantial pension reform) puts them at loggerheads with their longtime political support and base.== No, the right and moral thing to do is fulfill your contractual obligations. The “police powers” argument uses the excuse that we can’t do it, and should be excused. It doesn’t make reneging on our contracts right. - Cincinnatus - Thursday, Jun 13, 13 @ 12:29 am: Thanks, RNUG. - Angry Chicagoan - Thursday, Jun 13, 13 @ 10:29 am: A Chicago Tribune peddling ridiculous conspiracy theories and showing total ignorance of how government or any other complex enterprise works; a Chicago Sun-Times determined to slit its own wrists when it comes to journalistic content. Chicago has got to be more ripe for new media than any other major US city. - Al Moncrief - Friday, Jun 14, 13 @ 3:28 pm: CULLERTON’S CHIEF LEGAL COUNSEL ERIC MADIAR: COLORADO’S BREACH OF PENSION COLA CONTRACTS WILL LIKELY BE FOUND UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Cullerton’s legal aid Eric Madiar believes that Colorado’s theft of fully-vested, accrued public pension COLA benefits is likely unconstitutional. So, why is Cullerton going down this path in Illinois? From “Public Pension Benefits Under Siege”: “The adoption of the contractual approach by Colorado . . . however, make(s) it more likely that pension reform efforts (the COLA provisions of SB 10-001) will be found unconstitutional.” A PDF of the Madiar paper is available on the website of the National Conference of State Legislatures at the following link: http://www.ncsl.org/home/search-results.aspx?zoom_query=madiar%20public%20pensions Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.