A Trojan Horse ad
Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - Posted by Rich Miller
* Illinois Policy Action, the new, more overt political arm of the Illinois Policy Institute has been running a Chicago-targeted online ad that can only be described as chock full of chutzpah.
As you most certainly are aware by now, the Illinois Policy Institute wants to end the public pension system as we know it and replace it with a 401(k) type of plan.
But this week-old ad allies the group with Chicago city workers by urging them to ask Gov. Pat Quinn to veto the pension reform bill which “takes more of your money, cuts your benefits, but fails to improve your retirement security.”
I kid you not…
The video has over 7,600 views so far.
* Script…
Are you a Chicago city worker?
If Governor Quinn signs the Chicago pension bill, he’ll cut your pension benefits and take even more from your paycheck.
What? So we can continue to bail out the crooked politicians who have nearly bankrupted Chicago?
Demand Quinn veto the bill that takes more of your money, cuts your benefits, but fails to improve your retirement security.
This bill only benefits the same politicians that got us into this mess.
Click the link, and tell Quinn to veto the Chicago pension bill.
* Clicking the link takes you to ChicagoTaxHike.com, where workers are encouraged to send this message to Gov. Quinn…
Dear Gov. Quinn,
For decades, politicians have underfunded city-worker pensions and broken their retirement promises. Now my retirement future is at risk.
It’s not fair for you to ask me to pay more in property taxes, contribute more to the pension system and cut my cost-of-living adjustments. And you’ll have done nothing to ensure that politicians stop using my pension as a slush fund.
All of this will fall on the backs of my family and me, as well as the thousands of other individuals who have dedicated their lives to working for the city.
I’m asking you to veto the Madigan/Rahm pension bill and take your “solution” back to the drawing board.
Man, that takes some serious gall.
Last month, the group posted a video of a public school teacher arguing against the proposed progressive income tax. It received less than 200 views.
* And while the Illinois Policy Institute is sucking up to unionized Chicago public employees and Downstate teachers, its Journalist in Residence Scott Reeder just penned a column demanding a right to work law in Illinois...
Thirty-one years ago, I gave a speech to my high school rhetoric class on how Illinois ought to become a right-to-work state.
Back when I was in high school, my hometown of Galesburg was an industrial center that churned out lawnmowers, refrigerators, steel buildings and outboard motors.
Industrial unions were powerful in Galesburg just as they were in nearby Peoria, Moline and all across Illinois. So my speech calling for ending compulsory unionism was not particularly well received.
After all, many of my classmates were the sons and daughters of union workers. To them, I was preaching apostasy. A right-to-work law simply means that employees cannot be forced to join or otherwise pay union dues in order to keep their jobs.
Today, when I visit my hometown, I feel sadness. Those union factory jobs have evaporated. Many of my classmates have moved to other states to raise their families.
- Nobody's Perfect - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 12:25 pm:
Speaking of Internet Fun….look what the bureau of prisons provides…..
STUART LEVINE
Register Number: 17852-424
Age: 68
Race: White
Sex: Male
Located at: Duluth FPC
Release Date: 08/06/2017
There is a link for emails and a place to send gifts
- Almost the Weekend - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 12:27 pm:
NAFTA and technological improvements made these jobs evaporate. Look at the Maytag plant in Galesburg they didn’t go to Indiana they went to Mexico.
- wordslinger - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 12:28 pm:
Chutzpah isn’t the word. It’s cynicism. Obviously they think public employees are complete morons.
- Rich Miller - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 12:29 pm:
===they didn’t go to Indiana they went to Mexico===
True but NAFTA didn’t make that easier, it just provided a better safety net (retraining, etc.) for the workers who had jobs that were already heading down there.
- Almost the Weekend - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 12:44 pm:
That’s a good point Rich, my response was in regards to Scott Reeder, who said many of his classmates moved their families to other states to raise families.
You could also point to the Sensata Plant I believe that was in Freeport. These workers were not unionized and their jobs were shipped overseas to China.
- Oswego Willy - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 12:57 pm:
Do they think that when the sun comes up every day, yesterday’s words and actions are magically erased from everyone’s minds, and whatever you say that day, works?
They are banking on the viewers to be morons, when, in fact, peddling this, makes them the morons.
I am not shocked its out there, I am shocked they want it believed.
- Keyser Soze - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 12:59 pm:
Food for thought; can a reasonably intelligent individual manage a 401-k account better, or worse, than the State of Illinois has managed public pensions?
- Ghost - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:00 pm:
Lets pas a bill that limits the fees and comissions that can be earned on investing public employees money to 1% or no more then 60,000 a year for time worked for all state employees retirement or 401k style accounts. AFter all we need to keep wages fair and we dont want to overpay for handling of State funds like we dont want to overpay for State workers who handle those funds.
I bet the push to switch over would die out. its funny how its unfair to pay the employees, but no one is areguing about the huge payouts to the companies who handle the investments as being unfair or ridiculously high
- Arizona Bob - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:01 pm:
The simple fact is that compulsory unionism, and history of union militancy, is a HUGE negative to bringing or expanding jobs and businesses to Illinois. Anyone here want to debate that point?
Anyone want to argue that compulsory unionism in public education didn’t have a major role in Illinois expenditures per student increasing at about double the rate of inflation in the last decade, along with the “right” of public employees to strike without consideration for schools that simply couldn’t afford to meet the union’s demands (see Chicago, City of)?
American’s rights and constitution were based on limiting the actions of government to take away individuals’ and states’ freedoms and liberty. There is no way to claim that compulsory union membership isn’t a major infringement to a citizen’s right of association, freedom of choice and liberty.
Fairness demands workers are given that choice. Illinois has chosen not to consider fairness in this matter, much to the detriment of the remaining workers in Illinois.
Workers of Illinois unite! All you have to lose is your union chains!LOL
- wordslinger - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:02 pm:
–Food for thought; can a reasonably intelligent individual manage a 401-k account better, or worse, than the State of Illinois has managed public pensions?–
“Management” wasn’t the issue. It was the state shorting contributions.
But if you think it’s a good deal to take a chance on a 401K over a guaranteed pension, be my guest.
- VanillaMan - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:05 pm:
–Food for thought; can a reasonably intelligent individual manage a 401-k account better, or worse, than the State of Illinois has managed public pensions?–
“Management” wasn’t the issue. It was the state shorting contributions.
Wordslinger is correct - NO - it can’t. The State will end up shorting contributions.
- Oswego Willy - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:08 pm:
When a 401K can be constitutionally guaranteed, then I will not think twice when I am told the 401K is more sound than something do specifically written into the document out state uses as it’s rule of law.
It’s like people think this. 401K switch is like going from one “broker” to another, with the same guarantees and safeties.
Why the heck is it so important for the Supremes to rule on the Pension Bill if all this is/was is moving monies and funding one thing or another.
That pesky Constitution…
- Wallinger Dickus - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:08 pm:
Food for thought; can a reasonably intelligent individual manage a 401-k account better, or worse, than the State of Illinois has managed public pensions? — Keyser Soze
The best planned 401(k) plan needs one heckuva market surge and maintenance to succeed if the reasonably intelligent individual puts ZERO money into it.
THAT’s why the public pensions don’t succeed. Do some research to support your nonsense.
- john doe - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:08 pm:
There ARE several companies(Vanguard, Fidelity, Charles Schwab, etc.) that would invest public employees retirement funds for less than 1%/year.
- Grandson of Man - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:11 pm:
“Industrial unions were powerful in Galesburg just as they were in nearby Peoria, Moline and all across Illinois. So my speech calling for ending compulsory unionism was not particularly well received.”
Reeder was a corporate shill at an early age.
“Back when I was in high school, my hometown of Galesburg was an industrial center that churned out lawnmowers, refrigerators, steel buildings and outboard motors.”
Reeder was against unions when the economy was stronger because of them. It shows the hollowness of his arguments.
We might see right to work, or a form of it, after all in Illinois if SCOTUS rules in favor of Harris in Harris v. Quinn. The ruling should come sometime this month or next month.
As far as unions killing jobs, it’s a big steaming load. Other states with high unionization rates are doing better than us, as far as the unemployment rate. Unionized workers also earn more than non-union workers in almost every field.
- Anon - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:12 pm:
== compulsory union membership ==
I don’t believe anyone is forced to join a union, just to contribute to the union’s cost of bargaining on behalf of all the workers.
- Keyser Soze - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:16 pm:
W-Slinger; agreed on management, but “guaranteed?” Stay tuned.
- CollegeStudent - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:26 pm:
===Food for thought; can a reasonably intelligent individual manage a 401-k account better, or worse, than the State of Illinois has managed public pensions?===
A better question would be “can a blindfolded monkey throwing darts at the stock listings perform better than a reasonably intelligent 401k account manager?”
- Almost the Weekend - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:26 pm:
Arizona Bob lets look at it from another perspective. Companies like GTCR lobby the state of Illinois to invest in these pensions, after winning a contract, GTCR makes hundreds of millions of dollars in fees (Case Study: Pennsylvania). Then they use this money to lobby and support candidates who will support a 401K style pension system. These hundreds of millions of dollars in fees are drain from the state of Illinois for education, infrastructure and social services. It works both ways.
- wordslinger - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:36 pm:
For those who haven’t been following in the WSJ or NYT, the SEC is putting a big spotlight on what had been the largely unregulated private equity industry regarding hidden fees, and are increasing pursuing clawbacks for some pension funds.
- Anonymous - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:50 pm:
W. Dickus Please explain why IMRF (a public pension that was never underfunded,no one missed a payment) has done so well that it’s recipients receive 13 checks. According to you, it should have failed merely by the fact that it is a public pension fund.
- DuPage - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:54 pm:
@Almost the Weekend@12:27=NAFTA and technological improvements made these jobs evaporate. Look at the Maytag plant in Galesburg they didn’t go to Indiana they went to Mexico.=
I think it was mostly NAFTA. I read the union agreed to big concessions a couple years earlier so the Maytag could use the savings to re-tool and remodel to a state of the art plant. Maytag then did the upgrades and had a state of the art super efficient, super quality controlled refrigerator plant in Galesburg. Whirlpool then became interested in buying Maytag possibly to control the competition. Whirlpool already had a cheap labor refrigerator plant in Mexico and added Maytag onto what they already produced in the Mexican factory.
- Rich Miller - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 1:56 pm:
===I think it was mostly NAFTA===
Again, NAFTA did not speed up the already major flow of jobs to Mexico. That was gonna happen with or without NAFTA. What it mostly did was knock down Mexico’s import barriers. Ask their film industry. Oh, wait. You can’t. It’s gone.
- Southie - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 2:03 pm:
Rich, you are foolish or sipping some kind of Kool-Aid if you don’t think NAFTA sped up the pace of outsourcing.
That is all.
- NewWestSuburbanGOP'er - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 2:06 pm:
Nobody is forced to join a union in Illinios. Why don’t some of you get your facts straight before you post?
- NewWestSuburbanGOP'er - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 2:11 pm:
BTW-the unions (public or private) are not the problems in our country. The greedy corporations and stockholders who demand more profit every year are the problem. How do they achieve their goals? Gut workers benefits, gut workers pay, gut workers pension plans, gut workers healthcare. Work more hours with no overtime. Give them some BS title and reclassify their jobs to make them management (ha, what a joke) and then tell them they have to work more than 40 hours a week.
No, Mr. Scott Reeder, the unions have never been the problem, it has always been the greedy owners and stockholders.
For all of you hardcore rabid right wingers who long for the good old days-1950’s, remember unionized workers in this country reached its peak in the 1950’s. Middle class families grew out of the union movement and made America great! Taxes were much higher for the richest Americans and we weren’t running deficits.
- Annie - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 2:17 pm:
If all employers provided their employees a place to live like Illinois Policy Institute provides Scott Reeder (journalist in residence) then maybe we wouldn’t need labor unions. Or pensions.
- Chi - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 2:23 pm:
“The simple fact is that compulsory unionism, and history of union militancy, is a HUGE negative to bringing or expanding jobs and businesses to Illinois. Anyone here want to debate that point?”
I’ll bite. Of course all businesses want cheaper labor. That does not mean that cheap labor is good for an economy, for its people, or for the company itself. In fact, studies have shown that well paid work forces build stronger economies. Is this something you want to debate?
“American’s rights and constitution were based on limiting the actions of government to take away individuals’ and states’ freedoms and liberty.”
So why would you take away a business owner’s freedom to contract with a union? Why would you force unions to represent people that aren’t paying them money?
“There is no way to claim that compulsory union membership isn’t a major infringement to a citizen’s right of association, freedom of choice and liberty.”
How about the fact that any union is democratically elected and can be democratically removed? Is it an infringement of my rights that I have to pay taxes to fund an Iraq war I didn’t support? No, because the President Bush was (arguably) democratically elected. Further, what right does someone have to a job they don’t have yet? If you don’t want to pay union dues, don’t take the job; let the market work, right? If union jobs are so unpopular than people will take non-union jobs instead. Why are you trying to kill the competition with big government legislation? Isn’t this what you pretend to fight against?
“Fairness demands workers are given that choice. Illinois has chosen not to consider fairness in this matter, much to the detriment of the remaining workers in Illinois.”
Salaries of workers in union states are higher than those in right to work states. Does anybody want to debate that point? How are higher salaries, less work-related deaths, better benefits, more secure retirements, etc. a detriment to workers?
- Johnny Utah - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 2:36 pm:
How did Texas survive and thrive in tech, manufacturing, etc with NAFTA sending all the jobs out of America? How about the other southern right-to-work states? Wouldn’t their jobs, which are right next to the Mexican border, be the first to go?
- Oswego Willy - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 2:36 pm:
- Arizona Bob -,
How exciting, teachers, teachers’ unions, and strikes.
Same solutions and causes, no matter the problem.
- Hyperbolic Chamber - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 2:40 pm:
Rich - You seriously think NAFTA merely “sped up” the movement of manufacturing jobs to Mexico? While some U.S. jobs may have moved south of the border prior to NAFTA, American workers got whiplash due to the incredible acceleration NAFTA created. U.S. companies burned rubber as soon as it passed.
- Chi - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 2:47 pm:
“How did Texas survive and thrive in tech, manufacturing, etc with NAFTA sending all the jobs out of America? How about the other southern right-to-work states? Wouldn’t their jobs, which are right next to the Mexican border, be the first to go?”
Re: tech, this is an industry that never had much union density, so RTW isn’t as relevant an issue, or reason for growth. I mean, California is a huge union state and is home to Silicon Valley.
Re: manufacturing, has Texas had any great increase in manufacturing jobs (when energy production jobs aren’t included)? I’d like to see those numbers. But since Mexico was/is the biggest beneficiary of NAFTA, it stands to reason that Texas, as it’s next door neighbor, would reap some of the benefit. It’s kind of like gentrification, on a nation-state level.
- The Prince - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 2:53 pm:
NearWestSuburban GOPer: What planet are you on? Have you never heard of a “Union Shop” where you must be a member of a the union as a condition of employment? Construction is the most noteworthy example.
- wordslinger - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 3:08 pm:
–For all of you hardcore rabid right wingers who long for the good old days-1950’s, remember unionized workers in this country reached its peak in the 1950’s. Middle class families grew out of the union movement and made America great! Taxes were much higher for the richest Americans and we weren’t running deficits.–
You also couldn’t own a telephone. Government set the interest rate on personal bank accounts. Government picked routes and prices for airlines. Set trucking and freight rates, and on and on…
The good old days.
- Almost the Weekend - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 3:09 pm:
Johnny Utah name another southern “right to work” state besides Texas that has a thriving economy. Texas is part of the United States and has the luxury of being located on or close to natural resources: primarily oil and natural gas. Being part of the United States they are able to use the interstate system to transport oil and gas across the country. Also, being located on the shores of the Gulf of Mexico where they can transport this product across the globe.
In the future once Mexico or any other Latin American country is stable and able to extract oil and natural gas at a cheaper rate Texas will feel the same crunch that Illinois has the past three decades. You want to rely on free trade, right to work and no supervision over corporations, this is what you get.
Bottom line manufacturing jobs are not leading their economy. Oil/fracking are leading their economy.
- Chi - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 3:10 pm:
You do not need to be a member of a union in a “union shop”. No one can be forced to join a union. But unions can collect from non-members the dues necessary to perform its duties as the collective bargaining agent. This was the basis of the “Beck” decision by the US Supreme Court in 1988.
- Johnny Utah - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 3:27 pm:
Almost the weekend,
Texas’s jobs in manufacturing is flat over the last decade. IL is down 20%.
TX is now the #1 tech exporter in America. That’s a chunk of their economy.
IL is also part of the US and it also has energy resources.
Let me throw your question back at you. Name a southern rtw state that is growing jobs at a slower pace than Illinois.
- CollegeStudent - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 3:33 pm:
Johnny Utah-what good is job growth if it is confined to Wal Mart?
- Kimocat - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 3:41 pm:
The increase in Texas jobs during the last decade has been primarily minimum wage jobs –Texas likes to keep their workforce poor and desperate. That’s why they turned down the Medicaid expansion. Next door in Arkansas, the right to work state where Whirlpool used to be before they headed for Mexico, has a Walmart for everyone to work in. Oh and BTW, Toyota is moving their headquarters to Texas — so that they can be closer to Mexico and move more of their production facilities there. Isn’t this working out great?
- Johnny Utah - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 3:45 pm:
CollegeStudent,
It’s time to get back to class. Read about the dynamic changes in the TX economy before calling them McJobs. You might find that TX just passed IL for median income on the back of their Walmart jobs.
Where are cars being made? Where are tech exports being built? Where is the country’s manufacturing moving to? Texas and the South, or Illinois?
It’s ridiculous for anyone in Illinois to sit here with a terrible unemployment problem and say “we don’t want none of them Texas Walmart jobs.”
Mission accomplished. You won’t have them.
- Johnny Utah - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 3:48 pm:
Kimocat:
Do some wikipedia and try again. Toyota is moving to Dallas to be near its US facilities. Located in TX, MS, WV, KY, AL. Oh yeah, they’re in the Midwest too. In Indiana.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toyota_manufacturing_facilities#United_States
- Johnny Utah - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 3:52 pm:
Toyota has one facility in Mexico, on the Baja. That would be nearest to LA, the place they are leaving.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motor_Manufacturing_de_Baja_California
- Demoralized - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 4:10 pm:
@Johnny:
Then move to Texas. It’s absolutely asinine to continue these “comparisons.” Everybody always says, “Well, if Illinois were only more like (fill in the blank) our life would be filled with roses.” Baloney.
- CollegeStudent - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 4:12 pm:
===Do some wikipedia and try again. Toyota is moving to Dallas to be near its US facilities. Located in TX, MS, WV, KY, AL. Oh yeah, they’re in the Midwest too. In Indiana.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toyota_manufacturing_facilities#United_States ===
Hmmm….
Wouldn’t Birmingham and Louisville be closer/more central? Dallas is really only “closer” in the sense that DFW is a hub airport.
- Almost the Weekend - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 4:14 pm:
My argument has been Illinois has a different economy and lack of natural resources compared to Texas. Illinois was a manufacturing destination because of its location (middle of the United States) to transport goods across the country as fast and efficiently as possible. This is supported by the numerous interstates that run through Illinois. Location with improvements in transportation and technology has made location irrelevant. Illinois is now trying to change from a manufacturing economy to a tech/toursism/service economy and is struggling with this drastic transition.
Texas’ economy primarily relied on oil/gas and with this energy demand across the world, Texas has been a major beneficiary. I will admit their economy has evolved better and became more diverse. Not to mention the hundreds of millions of federal dollars to protect the border. Which makes isolated cities and towns prosperous even though the private sector has forgotten about them or ignored them.
However, Texas economy has not translated well into healthcare and education. Texas is ranked last in high school graduation, and has the most people without health insurance. Maybe that’s why people are arguing majority of the jobs created in Texas are minimum wage jobs.
- Almost the Weekend - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 4:18 pm:
And Texas can’t be doing that great by itself considering it is trying to poach businesses from Illinois. Governor Perry has made several trips to Chicago to persuade businesses to come to Texas. That’s not exactly the entrepreneurial spirit that makes Texas, so great. Mooching off a Blue state, kind of sounds like a welfare queen in the words of Ronald Reagan.
- Almost the Weekend - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 4:24 pm:
Might I add George W. Bush just had knee surgery replacement in Chicago. He’s from Texas, why didn’t he have surgery in Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Odessa? I could keep going, but I’m done.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-george-w-bush-surgery-20140527,0,7940330.story
- Norseman - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 4:50 pm:
Willy, and that is why I’m voting for you to be Governor.
- jeffinginchicago - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 5:28 pm:
Maytag was bought by Whirlpool. They built a newfactory in Ohio consolidating several plants and modernizing. More production with fewer workers. Thepoint forthis forum why Ohio vs Illinois
- MyTwoCents - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 6:17 pm:
@Johnny Utah, trying to compare Illinois’ energy resources to Texas’ is just a ridiculous statement. Somehow I don’t think the oilfields of Illinois even remotely compare to the Texas oilfields, but nice try.
- wordslinger - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 6:33 pm:
Does anyone really want to live in a community where the IPI and their kind have real stroke?
Think they’re going to be all-respectful of individual liberties?
Let’s not find out.
- A modest proposal - Tuesday, May 27, 14 @ 10:17 pm:
Grandson of Man - While I realize that Arizona Bob’s comments might be a little hyperbolic, I have to call you out on nobody in Illinois is forced to join a union.
The institution forces you to join the union or face the repercussions. We all know that the law is written one way, but the practice pretty much forces you to join.
- Robo - Wednesday, May 28, 14 @ 8:46 am:
–remember unionized workers in this country reached its peak in the 1950’s–
That had more to do with the USA supplying most of the world with manufactured goods post WWII. That is something that could not be sustained indefinitely.
- Johnny Utah - Wednesday, May 28, 14 @ 9:44 am:
@CollegeStudent Sure, another city would have more perfectly central GPS coordinates. But Dallas has a lot more to offer, as you point out, like transportation and finance. Texas also doesn’t have corporate or individual income taxes, which is an extra incentive. But the point is Toyota moved away from it’s Mexican manufacturing and towards it’s US manufacturing, which is occuring in the South, and is being coordinated in Texas.
@AlmosttheWeekend, Perry poaches talent because he has something to offer — a booming state that is business friendly. The US is not a moocher when it offers opportunity and poaches talent from other countries through immigration. TX is doing the same thing.
Bush’s surgery is a sample size of one for a specific procedure. People who need heart surgery go to Cleveland Clinic. That doesn’t make Cleveland a destination city. People are leaving both Cleveland and Chicago.
@MyTwoCents IL energy resources don’t compare to TX, for sure. But the point is that we don’t have a real plan to use ours anyways. Like we don’t use our talented workforce, transportation hub, etc. We send our workforce away for some other state to use.
- kevin - Wednesday, Jun 4, 14 @ 11:23 pm:
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