Today’s quotable
Tuesday, Jun 23, 2015 - Posted by Rich Miller
* Former “‘Southern Avenger” Jack Hunter…
I thought a big part of being conservative meant picking a “side” and attacking the other. I thought not caring what others thought or felt was part of it. Some of my Confederate flag debates certainly reflected that mentality.
This is something ideologues do and is by no means exclusive to the right, as evidenced by the way some liberals cartoonishly portray conservatives, Christians, and, yes, Southerners.
Ideologues ridicule and dehumanize people at the expense of their personhood. Ideologues believe some groups must be attacked, and although the groups are comprised of flesh-and-blood human beings, it’s better not to think of them as people too much—it could get you off message.
It’s crude collectivist thinking. It’s an intentional lack of sympathy. It’s dehumanization. It’s at the heart of everything that’s wrong with our politics and culture.
- A Jack - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:21 pm:
The smartest thing I have heard all day.
- Liberty - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:21 pm:
You missed that ideologues don’t care about collateral damage.
- Ducky LaMoore - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:23 pm:
May I remind you… that extremism in the defense of liberty… is no vice….
May I further remind you… that moderation… in pursuit of justice… is no virtue.
- 47th Ward - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:29 pm:
Thanks for sharing that Rich.
- Ken_in_Aurora - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:33 pm:
===- Ducky LaMoore - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:23 pm: ===
Part of the problem, eh?
- Wordslinger - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:33 pm:
I agree, except for the overpaid, feather-bedding public employees with their luxurious pensions, the corrupt union bosses and the crooked GA leaders and the politicians they control.
They’re a sham.
- Checkers - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:35 pm:
Amen
- Frenchie Mendoza - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:35 pm:
He talkin’ about the flag or Rauner?
- Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:39 pm:
I read the whole article, after digesting what was in the Post.
Thanks for giving some light to this.
- LBJ - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:44 pm:
A remarkable article for its honesty and for the author’s ability to admit that he’s truly human and changed by the suffering of others.
- Out Here In The Middle - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:46 pm:
Read the entire article. One of the best I’ve read about the Confederate flag debate.
- Allen Skillicorn - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:49 pm:
Great way to sum up the context of the issue and move forward.
- Norseman - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:51 pm:
Well said Word!
- VanillaMan - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:51 pm:
Be careful what you worship because the day will come when it will demand a sacrifice from you and that sacrifice may irreparably harm you.
- Norseman - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:53 pm:
=== that extremism in the defense of liberty… ===
The problem is that one person’s definition of liberty is often times different from another’s.
- phocion - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:54 pm:
Clearly some of those commenting here have not taken heed of the Jack Hunter’s wisdom. Pity.
- Sam Weinberg - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 12:55 pm:
Ducky - I suppose there’s a pretty good argument that that was the speech that marked the official beginning of the “Southern Strategy,” and all that has resulted. (Though I sure hope you’re quoting Senator Goldwater ironically).
What a piece by Hunter. Is it too much to hope that the political ascendancy of stark, raving moderation could be at hand?
- Ducky LaMoore - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:00 pm:
@Sam
Yes I was. I typically don’t identify my snark, perhaps in the future I will. I create too much confusion.
- AC - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:00 pm:
Awesome article worth a read in its entirety.
- Stones - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:00 pm:
Ideologues are about winning the argument at any cost.
- A Jack - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:10 pm:
Unfortunately the Rauner camp considers moderation as appeasement.
- The Professor - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:19 pm:
Ideology is a rigid formula that is totally inadequate to political affairs. Samuel Huntington wrote in the 80’s about something he called the ‘American Creed.’ The American Creed is a set of values that we, as Americans, hold sacred - liberty - equality - individualism - etc. For reading on a snowy night this coming winter I would recommend “American Politics: The Promise of Disharmony. I use the book for my international students. It gives some insight into who we are.
- illini - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:19 pm:
I also read the post in its entirety - quite revealing in many ways.
Thank you Rich for sending the link.
Could something like this be the beginning of an honest dialogue?
- ChiTownSeven - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:29 pm:
I think one way to explain the shift in the paradigm is this: for many people, what happened in Charleston changed the symbology of the flag. In other words, it changed what the flag represented. Part of the old narrative of the confederacy is true: the northern armies treated the south and its civilians shamefully; the war didn’t start because of slavery — it started because of the North’s attitudes toward tariffs, which helped northern industry and hurt southern agriculture; slavery became the rallying cry of the North only after the North was losing the war; Lincoln’s so-called emancipation proclamation had no effect in the South during the war, and — shamefully — did not even purport to free the slaves in those slave-states who sided with the North.
- Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:36 pm:
===and — shamefully — did not even purport to free the slaves in those slave-states who sided with the North. ===
In the spirit of this post I will not refer to you as a moron.
Lincoln did not have executive powers to overturn state laws in states which had not seceded. Period. He wasn’t a king, despite what his detractors claimed.
As far as your tariff argument goes, you have used Confederate-sympathizer talking points to smear our greatest President.
Proud?
- Wensicia - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:36 pm:
Great article! I’ve bookmarked it for future reference.
- illini - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:39 pm:
Great rebuttal Rich.
- Kodachrome - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:43 pm:
I agree, except for the rich, union-busting, senior and disabled citizen harming Governor with his clearly evil intentions, the hapless, purchased GOP members and their complete capitulation to help only the wealthy citizens of IL.
They’re a sham.
How ironic . . . . . . . perhaps this could be a wake up call to all here who consistently support only one side of every debate?
All due respect, Word, but I don’t see how your post really sets the non-partisan tone that comports with the article. Seems to me it’s a call to work to understand where your opponent is coming from. Given Rich’s indications about how many in the GA read or know this blog, maybe some give and take from those as experienced as you here could lead to some idea of compromises that could be productive for both sides.
Norse, I think you’re accurate - I also think the key is for all on both sides to try to respect and understand the definitions coming from the other side of the debate. Otherwise, we could end up with a situation where we are between a rock (BR) and a hard place (MJM).
- Left Leaner - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:46 pm:
Thanks for sharing Rich.
- Try-4-Truth - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:48 pm:
ChiTownSeven — Wrong wrong wrong… The war started and ended on the idea of slavery. Period. No other issues were at hand. I’ll give you an example:
“State’s Rights”? - No. Unless you wanted to give a slave holder the right to bring his slave to a northern, non-slave state. That was the right in “State’s Rights”. The right to travel with your “possession” without fear of losing it. Namely, freeing that slave.
- Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:49 pm:
I should’ve just deleted the comment.
Let’s move along.
- not so simple - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:53 pm:
Now we can move to rename Calhoun County. Named for the S. Carolina legislator defender of slavery and state’s rights.
- Gooner - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 1:57 pm:
” it started because of the North’s attitudes toward tariffs”
Son, the southern states WROTE the tariff laws. They were not at issue for about 30 years prior to the Civil War.
Come on.
- Sam Weinberg - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 2:02 pm:
ChiTownSeven — what did the North do to force the South to secede? It voted for a Northern, anti-slavery President. That’s it. He hadn’t even taken office when six weeks later the secession movement started. And it was all about slavery.
Don’t take my word for it, see what the seceding states had to say when they voted to commit treason:
http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html
- Wordslinger - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 2:03 pm:
About 15 seconds on the google will produce links to all the declarations of secession of the Southern states.
Slavery is front and center in every one. Curiously, tariffs are not. it takes an amazing amount of mental contortion to deny that truth.
- Arizona Bob - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 2:33 pm:
One wonders how this nation’s history would’ve been changed had the secession not happened, and slavery had been allowed to die the death it deserved due, as it did in most of the world, to becoming uneconomical as well as morally reprehensible (biblical “endorsements” notwithstanding). I suspect that without that legacy of blood, and the ill conceived transformation of the South and “freedom” created in a manner most likely to foment racial hatred and animosity, America would be a very different place today, most likely for the better…
Now, if you want to discuss Lincoln…LOL
- Gooner - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 2:34 pm:
Arizona Bob,
You should tell the Chinese that slavery is bad for economics. Maybe if you do so, they will change their ways.
- Gooner - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 2:40 pm:
That being said, to some extent Bob has a point.
The south currently is doing terribly economically. Georgia, Kentucky Alabama, and Mississippi have some of the worst unemployment and some of the highest rates of food stamp use in the country. They also have some of the worst schools.
Nonetheless, although these times are challenging and the south is a burden on us all, I don’t believe that we are better off without them. We’ve got 239 years of shared history. They are part of our family. You don’t turn your back on family just because they are having a tough time.
So sorry Bob, I for one don’t want to see them go. Instead, I think us northerner should lend them a hand in their time of need.
- thunderspirit - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 2:54 pm:
This is a terrific article. Thanks for the link to it, Rich.
- A Jack - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 3:01 pm:
Well Bob, such theories are just theories. And if history tells us anything is that the wealthy would rather sacrifice millions of middle class and poor rather than give up even a piece of their lavish lifestyle.
- walker - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 3:08 pm:
Good essay.
Also very much liked Gov. Nikki Haley’s speech yesterday — especially the statement that this flag is a symbol of our divisive past, offensive to many, and we need to embrace the future.
- Captain Illini - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 3:11 pm:
Slavery was clearly on the minds of all states in secession, but the broader point of the 10th amendment on state’s rights was their point. Regardless of the outcome of the Civil War, slavery would have been the ultimate downfall of the south due to its abhorrent nature and that of its followers and supporters.
- Albany Park Patriot - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 3:13 pm:
Except one side has lopsided resources over the other when we’re talking race. So saying “samesies” and calling it a day doesn’t cut it. The anger over 5 centuries of institutionalized racism isn’t the same over someone worried they can’t sing Christmas carols.
- Mongo - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 3:19 pm:
That was incredible. Very revealing, very sorrowful, yet very uplifting.
- downstate commissioner - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 3:25 pm:
I have always been neutral about the Confederate Flag, until yesterday, when someone referred to it as the American Swastika. Quite a comparison. I now believe that it should never be flown in a place of honor at any publicly-owned institution. The only exception might be at a Confederate cemetery.
- Wordslinger - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 3:28 pm:
CI, you’re making stuff up. You won’t find the words “Tenth Amendment” in any declaration of secession. Chock full’o slavery, though. Feel free to read them.
- Old Sarge - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 3:29 pm:
Thanks for the article. Well said.
- Slippin' Jimmy - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 3:51 pm:
Rodney King, also said it very succinctly, “Can’t we all just get along?”
- Captain Illini - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 3:53 pm:
Word…I’m not making it up, declarations are what they are, the analysis of the conflict over these many years has yielded many books pointing out the same - Federal Government vs. State Government along with the obvious of slavery.
Regardless, the article is well done and to the point.
- cover - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 3:58 pm:
= CI, you’re making stuff up. You won’t find the words “Tenth Amendment” in any declaration of secession. Chock full’o slavery, though. Feel free to read them. =
South Carolina’s secession resolution does not mention the 10th Amendment by number, but makes express reference to it. I see no such references to the 10th Amendment in the resolutions of Georgia, Mississippi, Texas, or Virginia. (hat tip to Sam Weinberg for that link) The Bill of Rights amendment most referenced in these resolutions is the 4th Amendment, ostensibly because free Northern states were protecting instead of returning fugitive slaves.
- Gooner - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 4:08 pm:
CI,
Yes, there was a dispute of federal v. state. However, the only point of dispute was over slavery.
Nothing else is documented at the time. The tariff was not an issue since the south wrote.
Name one other that could have been remotely close as the cause. People don’t go to war over vague notions of “those guys are mean.” They went to war to preserve slavery. That’s it.
- Rod - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 4:45 pm:
Well if the states that current fly the Confederate battle flag are taking down the flag as an official symbol, then they also need to do something about their official holidays. Most commonly called Confederate Memorial Day, also known as Confederate Decoration Day (Tennessee) and Confederate Heroes Day (Texas).
In Alabama and Mississippi its a State paid holiday held each year on the last Monday in April. Georgia by State law it is also a paid holiday for state workers. In both Kentucky and Louisiana its held on June 3, and is also a celebration of Jeff Davis’ birthday. In North Carolina its focus is on General Stonewall Jackson.
The battle flag is only part of all of this, it also has a lot more to do with a complete lack of many whites in the south coming to grips with the reality of the Civil War and the fight to keep slavery. It is as if Germany today at the level of their federal states celebrated various Nazis leaders birthdays.
I would recommend to every Illinoisan a visit to the Illinois memorial at Vicksburg Mississippi and see the names of our dead on the walls. That was just part of the cost of the civil war to our state and it was immense including the murder of President Lincoln. No taking down the flag doesn’t end all of this and it has been a long time coming, since reconstruction to be exact.
- orzo - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 5:03 pm:
One of the reasons the Southern states are comfortable with the symbol of sedition and slavery is that they are in denial. They make up stuff like Captain Illini and ChiTownSeven’s comments to avoid deaking with undeniable facts. That said, I am encouraged about some of the comments from Southern leaders, and I hope some good comes out of this.
- orzo - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 5:03 pm:
Dealing, sorry
- CapnCrunch - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 5:37 pm:
Mr. Hunter used a lot of words to tell us that he is a slow learner.
- DuPage Dave - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 6:55 pm:
Nice try, buddy, but the confederate flag itself is all about dehumanization.
- Call Me Crazy - Tuesday, Jun 23, 15 @ 8:28 pm:
If you have any doubts about slavery really being the sole and only cause of the Civil War and if you want to read about how Lincoln’s attitudes about slavery and African Americans evolved read The Fiery Trial. It won the Pulitzer Prize and is the most authoritative book on the subject.
As someone who drives to the Deep South frequently where they keep flying that flag proudly saying it only symbolizes “Southern Heritage” I am glad that society is finally having second-thoughts about those ideas. It is just so terrible that it took such a horrific tragedy and SC’s continued flying of the flag on its state Capitol grounds to start that conversation. Then again it took a four year war and millions of American deaths and casualties to start a real conversation about the evils of slavery and to pass a constitutional amendment to outlaw it.
- Union gal - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 1:00 am:
That was a flag that divided our nation. It should be in a museum to make us remember our transgressions but not be a symbol for those who use it for hatred
- Ben Franklin - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 8:22 am:
Now, let’s finish Reconstruction. “America’s Unfinished Business”–Eric Foner