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Good morning!
Wednesday, Jun 24, 2015 - Posted by Rich Miller * Both sides of my family came to Illinois from the South. My maternal side traces its ancestry directly back to Thomas Jefferson. My paternal side is distantly connected to Johnny Cash. Both pretty cool, if you ask me. But, there’s always been that dark side. Did any of my ancestors own slaves? I haven’t seen any records, but it seems likely that some did. [ADDING: Jefferson was apparently a great, great, etc. uncle, so it’s unclear about the slave question.] My paternal grandmother hailed from the London, Kentucky area, which has been a hotbed of Ku Klux Kan activity for generations. Grandma was ecstatic to get the heck out of that backwater, but, well, let’s just say some of my “country” kin to this day aren’t exactly anxious to embrace the concept of racial equality. * Like many of my contemporaries, I’ve been exposed to casual hatred of black people since before I could walk. Thankfully, I was raised not to be that way. I was taught early on that my widely beloved ancestor President Jefferson was a great man but no saint. I was led to realize at a fairly early age that hatred is a dangerous and debilitating disease. I ain’t no perfect angel on anything, but I do regularly examine my attitudes and thoughts on this particular topic. * And because both sides of my family veered through Kentucky at one time or another, I find this news to be incredibly heartening…
That statue was erected in 1936 - 71 years after the Civil War ended. It is, plain and simple, a marbleized burning cross. So, good for Sen. McConnell and, hopefully, good for Kentucky. * And while we’re all counting our blessings this morning, let’s also give thanks to my late shirttail cousin Mr. Cash for writing songs like this. Get up and dance… Go on, I’ve had enough, dump my blues down in the Gulf
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- Wordslinger - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:24 am:
The McConnell news was a real shocker this morning. The dude just got re-elected. He went out on his own, so good on him.
Progress of all kinds has always been slow in the South, but an honest re-assessment about the nonsensical, ahistorical antebellum and Civil War nostalgia is welcome.
Even yesterday you had people here claiming secession and the firing on Ft. Sumter were because of “tariffs.” You have to ignore all contemporary literature from 1776 through 1865 to hold that position.
- Dudeman - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:25 am:
I respect the southerners for not wanting to lose their history and heritage, but glorifying Jeff Davis and the confederate flag is ignorant. He and the flag stood for rebellion and the destruction of the United States and the support of slavery. Why would anyone support that in a public place? The civil war been over for 150 years, give up the ghost. What these symbols represent mostly now is the support of racism.
- North Shore Joe - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:27 am:
Look at his reasoning… Unless I’m missing something, there’s no mention of it being a symbol of hatred, etc.
I think he’s just accusing Kentuckians of being posers, here.
Heart isn’t warmed one iota.
- William - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:28 am:
It’s a start.
- Anon - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:28 am:
I hope I don’t get deleted but I have to say - I don’t think here’s anything casual about hatred of an entire race of people.
That being said, as to the rest if the post, I too was both shocked and uplifted by McConnell’s announcement. I would never have guessed that he would insert himself into the debate so righteously and forcefully. Who knows - maybe there is courage in politics after all!
- Lakefront Liberal - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:29 am:
It is disheartening to feel like change can’t happen without some horrible tragedy to spur it on. But it is even more disheartening to have something horrible happen and and then still have no change. In that sense this comes as very welcome news.
- John A Logan - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:32 am:
I assume that all statues, memories, emblems, recognition, or public displays of any kind that honor the dead on the confederate side of the war should be erased from view? What does the removal of these things actually accomplish other than to reignite the division among people of different ethnic backgrounds. There are real issues facing the nation, chasing around the Confederate flag and pulling down statues of men who were emblems of their time in history is a pathetic distraction from things that actually matter.
- the Patriot - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:33 am:
I support it in a public place because it is our past. We need to have these up so we can talk to our kids when we go to the capitol about who they were.
So we going to bring down the Stephen Douglas statues across IL because he fought to protect the states rights to allow slavery. Jefferson and most of the founding father owned slaves so lets take them down as well.
You can’t rewrite the past by taking down statues and flags. I understand the sentiment of the post and it is well said, but hate does not come from a flag or a statue, it comes from the heart.
- W.S. Wolcott - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:33 am:
Rich, I guess you don’t have my miracle, but will you be attending the shows July 4th weekend?
- Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:35 am:
===a pathetic distraction from things that actually matter.===
Perhaps you don’t realize that just because things don’t matter in your mind, others could feel differently.
- Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:37 am:
===will you be attending the shows July 4th weekend? ===
At least two of them, yes.
- Honeybear - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:38 am:
Jefferson was an amazing man but complex. Visiting Monticello, his home, was one of the highlights of my family’s DC area trip. What struck me most deeply was how contemplation of the slave quarters caused me to examine and assess the aspects of my life that would be considered “wrong” by my ancestors. That contemplation was one of the largest factors in me choosing to work in East St.Louis, IL when I choose to switch from hospice chaplaincy to casework. I could have applied to Alton or Granite City. I am heartened that the tragedy in Charleston has resulted in many people in this country reexamining the issues of race and privilege. I know the journey has certainly blessed me.
- So_Ill - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:39 am:
Bruce Hornsby made early-90’s Dead so great…I always thought the line was “I give up, I have had enough, dump my blues on down in the Gulf?” Or maybe that’s just how Bobby sang it. Love live the Dead!
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:40 am:
Really, John Logan, a general such as yourself, and leader of the Grand Army of the Republic? You know the war is over and which side won. You made it happen. And you know the freedmen and their descendants are entitled to be free from symbols that were created to — and do — incite.
- ??? - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:42 am:
I’m surprised and heartened by McConnell’s suggestion.
As far as other cities/states following suit…somehow I don’t see Richmond, VA ever taking down all of its Confederate symbols. Monument Avenue has a HUGE statue of Jefferson Davis.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:43 am:
==But, there’s always been that dark side. Did any of my ancestors own slaves? I haven’t seen any records, but it seems likely that some did.==
If Jefferson is your ancestor (which, yes, is cool), wouldn’t the answer be a well known yes?
Anytime to stop honoring the rebel flag is a good time. And as Sen McConnell points out, it doesn’t even make logical historic sense for the Commonwealth of Kentucky to officially recognize Davis.
Although, I will say, IMHO, some of the stuff I’ve heard about from the past few days is a bit overreaction…ie Warner Bros saying they won’t license Dukes of Hazzard stuff any longer? Really? I guess Boss Hogg finally got them Duke Boys…
- Sam Weinberg - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:43 am:
Dylann Roof just put one of the last nails into the secession fetishist coffin. And he knows it. I hope they give him life so he can spend the next 60 years being tormented by the better and more harmonious future he helped create.
- ChrisB - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:44 am:
I’m wondering when Robert E Lee, Jefferson Davis and Alexander Stevens will be removed from Statuary Hall in the US Capitol. Always thought they were awkward symbols in an institution they tried to destroy.
- 32nd Ward Roscoe Village - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:44 am:
From the Wall Street Journal editor’s morning email: “On yesterday’s question about the Confederate flag, Peter Steele of Charleston, South Carolina, wrote: “I type this from a seat on a van headed to Columbia to march for flag removal. I am a son of the South and see both sides of the issue. But I read in Paul’s letter to the Romans that, although he believes all food to be ‘clean,’ he urges folks not to eat foods that bring pain to their neighbors. The flag pains many of my neighbors. It’s time to move it to museum.””
- Stones - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:46 am:
It’s time to retire symbols from the past that offend so many people. Cudos to Sen. McConnell for speaking out.
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:46 am:
One-fourth of my family background hails from the Willismsburg-Corbin Kentucky area. Dirt floors and children born at home.
If you’re to visit, you need “credentials” that you belong, and aren’t some outsider.
I was never exposed to an embrace of Confederate love. They loved their Kentucky roots but not the southern rebel ideals. That was never “their way”. I don’t know what earlier generations may have thought, I just know what the generations that influenced me taught.
The stars and bars, and what it represents, was not embraced. That was made very clear.
- Jerry Garcia - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:51 am:
Not surprising at all that the Jefferson Davis statue went up in 1936. In Tennessee, a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, a Confederate general and early KKK member (if not leader), wasn’t installed in the capitol until the 1970s. The Confederate flag didn’t go up at the South Carolina capitol until 1962. See a pattern? As African Americans gained civil rights and affirmative action took hold, Southern states very coincidentally started putting up Confederate symbols at government buildings.
Sickening. Not surprising, but sickening.
- LaughingJane - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:53 am:
====You can’t rewrite the past by taking down statues and flags. I understand the sentiment of the post and it is well said, but hate does not come from a flag or a statue, it comes from the heart.====
Well said. You can’t legislate the way people feel or what they believe and removing flags, statues, pictures, and symbols will do nothing to promote healing. What’s next? The American Flag? The American Flag flew on slave ships so maybe we should get rid of all of those too? Yes, isn’t that a silly idea, but mark my words, somebody along the way will suggest it.
We seem to have become a nation of perpetually offended people with no avenue for disagreement. Disagreement does not equal hate. Tolerance does not equal acceptance. If you want to claim you live in a free country, with the freedom to believe and speak as you wish you must allow that same freedom to others, otherwise your freedom is void.
- Give Me A Break - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:53 am:
Anyone wanting to gain a deeper understanding of how the south views itself and is still struggling with how to view the civil war in a modern context should read “Confederates in the Attic” by Tony Horwitz. It is a great study of the south and how the civil war still impacts the region’s culture and views of the US.
- Jerry Garcia - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:54 am:
So-Ill at 9:39,
Sorry, but there was nothing–nothing–great about the GD in the 1990s, and I saw enough shows to know. When such an iconic, once-terrific band has to rely on someone like Hornsby to carry them, there’s a problem.
- jerry 101 - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:54 am:
“My maternal side traces its ancestry directly back to Thomas Jefferson.”
“Did any of my ancestors own slaves?”
You answered your own question there, Rich.
Great post. Glad to see someone of Senator McConnell’s authority calling to remove a statue honoring the memory of a traitor.
- globalguy - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 9:54 am:
My family (both sides) is about as Yankee as it gets being from way upstate NY. And both side sent off members to fight and die in the Civil War so I find any commemoration, honoring, etc. of “the flag” and insult to their sacrifice in preserving the Union.
- naperville soccer mom - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:01 am:
Thomas Jefferson not only owns slaves but fathered children with them. What was going on in his head?
Overall, while I’m not defending slavery, it is difficult for one generation to apply their version of morality onto any other generation.
- Harry - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:04 am:
Good for McConnell, but Davis was born in KY (2 yrs earlier and not far from Abraham Lincoln’s birthplace) so there is a KY connection, that statue is not entirely gratuitous. Mostly, given when it was erected, but not entirely. Best to move it out of any government place, tho, the symbolism is just rancid.
- Former Merit Comp Slave - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:04 am:
I’m a serious history hound and feel strongly that all history, good and bad, should be preserved to better educate our children and hopefully learn from past mistakes. That being said, there are places for such historical items. Not current government buildings etc, but perhaps museums.
- plutocrat03 - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:05 am:
“A crisis is a terrible thing to waste” - attributed to Paul Romer, but famously used by Rahm Emmanuel
Lots of fire and brimstone about s symbol that few people notice in their daily lives. Slavery was a horrible practice, but still occurs today in places all over the world (including pockets in the US) with little attention.
It would make more sense to focus society’s outrage over actual contemporary slavery than to rehash what people argue are the symbols of historical slavery.
Using the acts of a deranged man as a tool to push forward a political agenda is a dangerous precedent.
- downstate commissioner - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:05 am:
“Casual hatred” probably describes what I grew up with; most people around our area had little contact with blacks. Unfortunately, the black race was considered inferior and casual talk and jokes always accepted that.
My parents were not haters, consequently we did not grow up with it in my house, except that my parents owned the house that she grew up in, and that section of that city was going downhill rapidly; she would not rent to black people, because it would reduce the value of the house, and the neighborhood. Unfortunately, that is the way it was back in the 50’s and 60’s.
As I mentioned in post yesterday, I have always been ambivalent about the confederate flag; that war happened before most of my ancestors were even in the USA, and they settled in central IL. Like many, we were taught that the war was over the economic differences with slavery as a secondary issue.
However, comparisons to the German swastika have made me aware of what it truly represents… and I don’t like it.
The irony of the the whole situation is that the murdering gunman may have done more to advance equality (fraternity might be a better word) and eliminating the symbols of racism than anyone in recent history…
- walker - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:06 am:
Jefferson Davis was not a significant figure in Kentucky state history. The statue was erected not in support of the Confederacy, (that would have been ridiculous for Kentucky,) but in reaction against progress in civil rights.
This was a good, and straightforward decision.
Likewise, the stars and bars was never the official flag of the Confederacy. It was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It was never flown in the state capitols across the South until the 20th Century, as a reaction against civil rights for blacks. Those who claim to love it for its history and heritage, not for its racist symbolism, are sadly misinformed.
- Wordslinger - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:07 am:
There’s quite a difference between facing the terrible past honestly and celebrating it in a place of honor in the public square.
It’s only because of the humanity of Lincoln, and Johnson’s struggle to carry out that legacy in the face of virulent opposition from the Radical Republicans, that Davis, Lee, Stephens and many others weren’t hanged for treason.
- SAP - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:08 am:
Of course taking down the Confederate Flag won’t end racism, but it is a powerful way for South Carolina to say that its government does not believe in insulting and oppressing African-Americans. I can’t think of a better response to the horrible tragedy in Charleston.
The statues are a little tougher call for me. Jefferson Davis’ statue does not deserve a place of honor but Thomas Jefferson’s does. The line is in between there somewhere. None of them should be totally swept under the rug–understanding history is too important for that.
- AC - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:08 am:
Recent issues have exposed for me how many people still hold dangerous prejudices that I thought were largely gone generations ago. It’s disheartening that many people seem unable to see issues, like the Confederate flag from the perspective of other people. It’s like being transported to the old south, only I’m in Illinois and it’s 2015.
- Grandson of Man - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:09 am:
Great family history, Rich. Thanks for sharing. All of our families have a dark side somewhere. I was told my great grandfather shot and killed someone when he was young, in his country.
Good for McConnell, Gov. Haley of South Carolina and other Republicans who no longer want Confederate symbols on public property. It’s time now to start removing this awful symbol that represents civil war and so much violence, hatred and “legal” oppression, such as slavery and Jim Crow laws.
Republicans need to eventually get past Confederate pride, as demographics are changing. Good for those who are starting to move away now.
- Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:10 am:
===Using the acts of a deranged man as a tool to push forward a political agenda is a dangerous precedent. ===
Yes, it’s just so dangerous to finally have an honest discussion about the Civil War 150 years later.
Sheesh.
- 47th Ward - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:12 am:
Thanks for sharing your story Rich. Well said as usual.
At the risk of sounding a little cynical, while I welcome McConnell’s leadership on the rebel flag and the Jefferson Davis statue issues, I can’t help but think he’d rather talk about these symbols than how easy it is for nutjobs to get firearms in this country.
I guess it’s easier to make the Charleston murders about first amendment issues instead of second amendment issues.
- Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:13 am:
===You answered your own question there, Rich.===
Not really. He’s an uncle.
- thunderspirit - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:15 am:
=== …there are places for such historical items. Not current government buildings etc, but perhaps museums. ===
Preservation of history is important; secession and rebellion is part of the country’s history. But relics of that history do not belong on honored display on or in State capitol buildings or on their grounds.
Museums are absolutely where they belong.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:17 am:
I grew up in Kankakee in the fifties and early sixties, and I understand what you mean by ‘casual hatred’. ‘N’ jokes were abundant and if you didn’t laugh, you were looked at with suspicion. As blatant racism gradually became less accepted, a scouting term or sentence was given to check out where you stood on the race issue. How you reacted determined the subsequent relationship in many cases. It’s not as prominent as it was, but among like minds, oh, racism is still kicking. Don’t kid yourselves
- Patty - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:21 am:
Break - thanks for the suggestion as I have never understood that sentiment. I think reminding some Americans of a time when their ancestors were owned as slaves would trump any southern pride or whatever claim they could make for flying it.
- VanillaMan - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:23 am:
According to data computed from economic historian Gerald Gunderson, average earnings due to slavery in the slave states were 25.9%. It was as high as 45% in Alabama, and as low as 17.4% in Virginia.
The percentage of the population that was slaves was as high as 57% in South Carolina and as low as 25% in Tennessee. Slavery was valued at $3,000,000,000 in 1860. Every financial institution in the US literally banked upon it. It was the highest valued asset in the slave states.
In the global economy, the US used slavery to undercut the costs of agricultural production and were enjoying an incredible business advantage over countries where slavery was illegal. The US economy was booming, thanks to slave labor. Cotton couldn’t be cheaper. No wage slaves gave the US a global market edge, no one could touch.
Abraham Lincoln and the Republicans didn’t fight slavery because it made good economic sense to do so. They didn’t fight slavery because the believed that African Americans were equal to Whites. They didn’t fight slavery because they were following the Bible. The New Testament advises slaves to honor their masters. Churches didn’t tell their worshippers that slavery was evil.
So, most of the reasons we debate issues today - wouldn’t have the power to end slavery. We are mere shadows of morality to the generation that defeated it. We are weaklings compared to them.
Lincoln and the Republicans knew that slavery was evil. They knew it was wrong. They chose to commit economic hari-kari and bloody civil war which destroyed half the country and killed 600,000 Americans because it was the moral thing to do.
So I see impoverished politicians today. I see them justifying low wages to undercut global competition. I see them justifying their budget cuts to our needy citizens because of costs. I see them making decisions based upon political arguments that lack basic moral considerations.
It took giants to end slavery. To take on the wealth based upon it. To take on the societies built around it. To take on the markets benefitting from it. To take on the churches, which justified it.
I don’t see giants today.
- A guy - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:28 am:
From the terrible tragedy in Charleston perpetrated by a very dysfunctional and disturbed young man, rises the best in our nation. I think now it’s safe to think of the nine victims as martyrs for inspiring more than a national conversation. The evidence that people are truly looking completely inside themselves and holding themselves accountable is pretty awe inspiring. Good for Senator McConnell.
Maybe he’s felt this way for a while and needed more impetus to share his “correct” view. No matter what these symbols have meant to some, they are reminders of pain and suffering to far too many, and in the case of one very deranged man, motivation to cause great harm.
Special mention to Walmart (not my store of choice) for removing all of the merchandise with the stars and bars on it. That was an important contribution from the private sector in this national reflection.
God Bless my parents who while affected by, and raised in a time where racism was accepted behavior and even taught, refused to pass that legacy on to their children. They were disappointed in themselves when any manifestation of discrimination or fear gripped them hard enough to make them express negative feelings or words. They were ahead of their time.
I have hope because we’re facing this now more than anytime I can remember. Fr. Hesburgh preached that values are not taught, but caught. If we’re better our children and their children will catch that from us.
Let’s finish this national purge of these hurtful and hateful reminders.
- Carroll County - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:35 am:
Don’t feel bad for a Southern heritage. Some of the biggest racism and worst treatment of black people comes from the north and from Illinois itself, during the period after the abandonment of congressional reconstruction, now dubbed “The nadir of race relations” by academics.
See Loewen’s book “Sundown Towns”, the Springfield Riots, MLK statements about Chicago, etc.
One thing that always struck me after really learning some history is this (I am white): I always thought the term “race riot” meant black people rising up and attacking whites. These riots were actually whites burning and expelling blacks who had risen too high on their own and needed some comeuppance for that progress.
- ZC - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:37 am:
There are a lot of things to dislike about Mitch McConnell but one thing that seems to be true, was in his youth he was very energized by the civil rights movement and the Rev Martin Luther King Jr. was one of McConnell’s heroes. Think of him in young Jimmy Stewart mode before he crossed over into wizened Claude Rains mode.
So while welcomed this isn’t an utter surprise, not if you look at McConnell’s while career.
- Old Shepherd - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:41 am:
I’ve never understood the continued support of Confederate symbols, particularly on government property. Plain and simple, the Confederacy was an armed rebellion against the United States that caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans, and put the South into an economic tailspin that is still felt today. Why should this be glorified in any manner? Why are Robert E. Lee, and to a lesser degree Jefferson Davis, celebrated figures in American History? How are they any different than Benedict Arnold?
- OldSmoky2 - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:44 am:
Symbols like the Confederate battle flag should be preserved and discussed in places like museums and schoolbooks. But using them in places like state capitols and state flags to perpetuate the mythology of the “Lost Cause” is wrong. That only perpetuates divisions, inspires hatred, and complicates having the meaningful conversation this country still needs to have about racism.
I had a great-great-grandfather who fought for the Confederacy at Vicksburg and died there. I had a great-great-grandmother with an uncle who after the Civil War married her widowed mother and also became her stepfather. He fought for the Union at Vicksburg, about a half mile down the lines from where my Confederate great-great-grandfather fought. I doubt either one that summer would have thought that one day less than 80 years later the daughter of one of their families would marry the son of the other. That happened as my father from Mississippi was training in the north to fight for the U.S. in WWII. History is complicated sometimes, but remembering our past doesn’t have to mean glorifying every aspect of it, especially when doing so only perpetuates sentiments that were clearly wrong. It’s past time to quit glorifying symbols that represent everything that was wrong about Southern secession and slavery. We’re one nation now that espouses some common ideals, even if we frequently have to try harder to get better at that. It’s sad that it took such a tragedy, but it’s good to see that in the wake of it people like McConnell are sincerely trying harder. And it can only be good that so many people are talking about this.
- Anonin' - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:45 am:
It is good to see all these white trash Confederate tributes finally coming down in such a rapid rate. Sad that it took the shootings in the church to provoke it.
Very eye opening
- G'Kar - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:54 am:
My mother’s family was in Muhlenberg County, Kentucky shortly after the American Revolution. They were always poor, first scratch farmers then worked in the coal mines. They most definitely did not own slaves. However, like most whites in the antebellum South, they had an interest in preserving the social order, which is illustrated by one of my ancestors joining a CSA regiment and fighting in the “Orphan Brigade.” However, like many KY families, there was a split–another of my ancestors fought in a USA regiment, the 11th!
Kentucky would not be totally turning its back on Jefferson Davis, there will still be the 351 foot obelisk located at his birthplace.
Also, some seem to be confusing the issue. AFAIK, there is no serious movement to totally ban the Stars and Bars, it is simply to remove it from government buildings.
- Wordslinger - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 11:02 am:
– very dysfunctional and disturbed young man–
Rignt, he’s a victim. Dysfuctional? Like he can’t tie his shoes?
How’s about evil? He’s hardly the first.
- A guy - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 11:09 am:
On a lighter note…all of this reflection has liberated and inspired a number of folks to admit their Kentucky roots! Good for all of you.
Though, history says, if you want to be President, you’ve got to leave at a very young age. Does anyone know if the Commonwealth houses a statue of the real heroic Kentucky born President in Frankfort? I would imagine they do. Anyone know for sure?
- Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 11:11 am:
===Anyone know for sure? ===
Yep. He’s in the center of the rotunda http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2015/06/23/kentucky-hears-calls-removal-jefferson-davis-statue-capitol/29168623/
- Stones - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 11:13 am:
A guy-
I’ve been to Frankfort, KY but don’t recall seeing a statue of Lincoln there. Pretty much most historical tributes are to Daniel Boone who is buried there.
Interestingly, Frankfort is the capitol of KY with a population of only about 25,000 people.
- Stones - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 11:14 am:
Thanks for the clarification Rich. I only viewed the Capitol building from the exterior.
- Federalist - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 11:27 am:
Absolutely nothing wrong with having a monument to Confederate soldiers with the Confederate flag displayed. Each state should have an open, dignified and honest conversation about the subject and let the people decide.
Far different than displaying the Confederate flag
on top of a State Capitol building as if the state were still under the Confederacy. That was ridiculous.
As to Davis and Kentucky- I could care less and will leave it to Kentucky to decide.
- Amalia - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 11:42 am:
“shirttail cousin” interesting.
I grew up with a deep connection to the South via a family member who spent several years down there. A love and a knowledge that for many, there was a closer, and often fonder relationship with African Americans than was claimed by some in the North. We aren’t as great as we seem in the North. But, still the Southern rebel pride is quite problematic. And forgetful.
I am not steeped enough in Southern history to know completely how it was used, but I do know that the flag in question was not a flag of the Confederacy, but the battle flag of General Lee’s Virginia Army, and therefore emblematic of their quest. still, it seems exactly like flying treason to me.
but further, the displays of that battle flag came in waves, in response to civil rights struggles of African Americans, Georgia in particular flying the flag right after Brown v. Board of Education decision. it’s code. and it’s vile. we get that your people fought in a war, but please read a little. See exactly what the state of South Carolina wrote about the why of the quest. and if State Senator Paul Thurmond, yes, he of that daddy, can state so clearly and with shame about the past, (check his comments out, pretty awesome), the rest of y’all can too.
but while you are at it Amazon et al., do be sure that you are taking down any swastika symbols and Nazi memorabilia in your sales realm. I have heard that you are taking down the offensive battle flag, as you should, but check your hate symbols and be sure you rid yourselves of that other one too. hate is hate.
- Precinct Captain - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 11:45 am:
==- naperville soccer mom - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:01 am:==
It’s actually not difficult at all. You can criticize them and judge them using contemporary voices. There were prominent anti-slavery voices in America prior to Thomas Jefferson living and during his life, including Roger Williams and Jonathan Sewall.
==- plutocrat03 - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 10:05 am:==
==Lots of fire and brimstone about s symbol that few people notice in their daily lives==
Clearly you have never lived as a Black American in South.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 11:54 am:
I am white. I was asked to be the best man in the wedding of a good friend who is black. It is a great honor and I am happy that he thinks so much about our friendship.
Basically, neither of us care what a person’s race is. It is the content of a person’s character that matters not the color of their skin.
I prey that someday we will get beyond race and look at each other as people. There are good and bad white people and there are good and bad black people AND it has nothing to do with the color of their skin.
I was raised to be friends with anybody who is friends with me and to not judge people on what they are but on their actions.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 11:56 am:
“I prey that someday we will get beyond race and look at each other as people. There are good and bad white people and there are good and bad black people AND it has nothing to do with the color of their skin.”
I meant we as a society and/or country.
- LaughingJane - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 12:06 pm:
===Confederate Flag won’t end racism, but it is a powerful way for South Carolina to say that its government does not believe in insulting and oppressing African-Americans.===
I find it interesting, if not somewhat amusing how a flag or a statue or any inanimate object can ‘oppress’ anyone. The oppression takes place in the mind, not in things.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Should the flag be flown at the capitol? Probably not, but let the people of the state decide that and then just take it down without all of the rhetoric. Good grief, Clinton used the symbol in his elections. Should we strike him from all history too?
- Wumpus - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 12:08 pm:
The only slaves confirmed to be owned by Rich’s family are the CapFax interns.
Ironic that so many who accuse Obama of being a traitor may want to keep the statue of a real traitor in Jeff Davis.
- Federalist - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 12:22 pm:
“Clinton used the symbol in his elections. Should we strike him from all history too?”
So did Jimmy Carter.
And Joan Baez did a wonderful version of “Virgil Caine” that eulogized a young southern soldier. The PC cops would boycott her and call her names today.
- LaughingJane - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 12:28 pm:
[This commenter has been banned.]
- Wordslinger - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 12:32 pm:
LaughingJane, you’re about three days late on the debunking of Innertubes Clinton lie, but keep trying, once you get over your amusement.
Seriously, you thought a national Democratic campaign would authorize the use of the Stars and Bars in 1992? You didn’t question that? Good grief, indeed.
- Anon - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 12:36 pm:
@LaughingJane
It’s one thing to say that a private citizen shouldn’t be free to honor whatever relic of confederate pride. It’s another to say we should completely eliminate all references to the confederacy (and yes the concurrent racism and racial oppression). But that’s not what this argument is about and no one is seriously advocating those positions.
This is about the government supporting or even endorsing the views represented by the flag. What people are calling for is removing it from state and federal government grounds. That’s hardly an unreasonable position.
Furthermore the flag also represents a movement against our nation and out government. As an American it baffles me that we would have state governments sponsor or endorse it, regardless of its racial connotations.
- JGB was always better - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 12:44 pm:
Concur with JG - 90’s were a period of decline. I’m biased, but Jerry’s coma (’86) to Brent’s death were some pretty peak years.
Rich - which two? I’m in Friday and Sunday, I miracled my Saturday tix to someone in desperate need, but pretty sure I’m getting in anyway.
- Urban Girl - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 12:46 pm:
Vanillaman @10:23, you are truly inspiring today. I am going to have to remember that term “improvised politicians”.
- Ginhouse Tommy - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 12:50 pm:
The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down is the the of the song not Virgil Caine. No big deal I know. It was written by Robbie Robertson, the guitar player and a Canadian for Levon Helm, the drummer in the band.
- vole - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 1:03 pm:
“Beyond this lies the fundamental question of whether a party has any responsibility to address society’s problems in good faith. So far, McConnell’s legacy as Republican leader is to have taken his caucus further than anyone else toward the proposition that it doesn’t. But the public is not likely to notice that anytime soon.”
from ‘Strict Obstructionist’
The Atlantic, Jan/Feb 2011
Rich, I take your point, but McConnell, on balance, has hurt far more people than he can possibly help with this symbolic gesture.
- VanillaMan - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 1:04 pm:
“The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down”, is about the futility of war and the impoverishment left behind.
Not about honoring the confederacy.
- Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 1:12 pm:
===The PC cops would boycott her and call her names today. ===
What VMan said.
You’re also talking about two different things here: 1) Monuments erected and flags flown specifically to warn African-Americans to stay in their place and not demand equal treatment; 2) Art.
It’s a ridiculous straw man argument.
Sheesh.
- VanillaMan - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 1:17 pm:
McConnell was not the Senate Majority Leader during the time The Atlantic article was written. He wasn’t the Senate Majority Leader after 2012. This article was intended to thwart the 2012 GOP drive to gain McConnell the Senate Majority Leader position by winning a majority of US Senate seats.
McConnell didn’t become the US Senate leader until this year. So while I acknowledge the quality of The Atlantic and have been a subscriber since college - I don’t buy the premise of this political hit article.
Harry Reid was the guy in charge. During those years, he ensured that the US Senate didn’t even pass a budget. So, there’s that.
Finally, McConnell began his US Senate career as a Senate Page. He is married to a lady of Asian descent. He is a humongous nerd. He has a long history of political moderation. His hero is Henry Clay, the Kentuckian who was known as the “Great Compromiser”. He doesn’t hurt people.
- A guy - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 1:25 pm:
=== Wordslinger - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 11:02 am:
– very dysfunctional and disturbed young man–
Rignt, he’s a victim. Dysfuctional? Like he can’t tie his shoes?
How’s about evil? He’s hardly the first.===
Can’t see where you’re picking up “victim” in there. Evil? Sure, he’s evil too. Chock full of it. Ingratiated himself to 9 people he was praying with, who indeed consider him a victim worthy of their help, and then he executed them in cold blood. It doesn’t get any more dysfunctional, disturbed and evil than that. Add the suffix if you want to. He is a victimizer. Not a victim.
- Federalist - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 1:58 pm:
@Vanilla man,
That is your spin. Yes it is about the futility of war and listen to what it says. It was not about a Southerner killing a Yankee but the other way around.
And I repeat, if Baez sang that song today it would be not acceptable for many in the entertainment industry.
- Federalist - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 2:05 pm:
This is a political issue and Art is often used in politics. They are not two different arguments
in that context and that context is quite relevant as related to this topic. It is an expression of thought and opinion.
- Cheryl44 - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 2:13 pm:
Rich, if you have Randolph ancestors we’re somehow related.
My parents grow up in a very small town in western KY, closer to Nashville than Louisville, which was the Confederate capitol of the state for a very brief period. There’s a Confederate memorial on the courthouse square. OTOH, their schools were integrated as far back as the 1930s and no one had to move to the back of the bus.
- VanillaMan - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 2:15 pm:
And I repeat, if Baez sang that song today it would be not acceptable for many in the entertainment industry.
I will pass your advice along to Ms. Baez. She will find it insightful.
- Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 2:20 pm:
===And I repeat, if Baez sang that song today it would be not acceptable for many in the entertainment industry. ===
Amy Helm just sang it at Mountain Jam, which is likely full of liberal types. Couldn’t hear any jeering in the audience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuWs8dcQZEc
You’re full of it.
- Federalist - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 2:32 pm:
You made an excellent point until you said “You are full of it.”
I did notice this was done a year ago to an audience of which I know nothing about their historical/political knowledge or anything else about them.
I wonder what would be the response right now if sang to a nationwide audience.
Granted you might be right but then again so might I. It would be interesting.
- Emily Booth - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 2:49 pm:
Jefferson Davis’ birthday is a state holiday in Alabama. I was really surprised to learn this from a college classmate who was from AL. My family arrived in the US after the Civil War.
- Federalist - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 3:09 pm:
Yes and I am pretty certain that Florida celebrates it as legal holiday on June 3rd.
That nonsense is what should be banned.
- GraduatedCollegeStudent - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 4:59 pm:
===The statues are a little tougher call for me. Jefferson Davis’ statue does not deserve a place of honor but Thomas Jefferson’s does. The line is in between there somewhere. None of them should be totally swept under the rug–understanding history is too important for that. ===
If it represents a specific individual who took up arms against the government, they don’t get a statue. “Generic Confederate Soldier”, particularly in a Confererate cemetery/on a Civil War battlefield, is permissible, though.
- Wordslinger - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 5:56 pm:
From today’s NYT:
“Our ancestors were literally fighting to keep human beings as slaves, and to continue the unimaginable acts that occur when someone is held against tneir will. I am not proud of this heritage.”
– Republican state Sen. Paul Thurmond of South Carolina, son of the late Strom Thurmond.
If that don’t blow your mind, cousin, it’s already blown.
- Stones - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 8:59 pm:
Federalist -
A quick google search shows FL does not officially celebrate Jefferson Davis’ Bday. Just wanted to clarify.
- Under Further Review - Wednesday, Jun 24, 15 @ 11:59 pm:
Should Wisconsin remove or edit the state historical marker that references that Jefferson Davis served as an American soldier in the future state of Wisconsin?
The difficulty in censoring history is that many Confederates also served the US government at various times during their careers. Some did so during the antebellum period, others did so afterwards. Numerous military forts are named after former generals who served in the Confederacy.
Jefferson Davis was once a US Senator and the Secretary of War President John Tyler was serving the Confederate cause at the time of his death.
Being politically correct across the board is not an easy task.
- Wordslinger - Thursday, Jun 25, 15 @ 6:37 am:
UFR, “censoring history?” Is that what they told you on the Tee-Vee is going on? Or is it choosing which elements of your history to give a place of honor?
Does each generation get to choose what to honor or they bound in perpetuity by previous choices?
Burning crosses are part of history. So is the slave sale stage. Should they be given a place of honor in the public square?
The sense of perpetual entitlement from the Chronic Victims falsely crying “political correctness” is pathetic.