49 Comments - Wordslinger - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 10:46 am: MAP students, plus layoffs and shutdowns in social services. If the governor wouldn’t take the heat on K-12 and salaries, I don’t think he’ll take the heat on these. Why do they rate as hostages, while others don’t? - worried downstater - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 10:48 am: Does it seem everyone in Springfield believes “let them eat cake”? No MAP, No WIC, NO IHEAP, No, NO, NO to serving the citizens of the State of Illinois. State goes no place but we got the State Fair. - PublicServant - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 10:49 am: Those greedy, entitlement-mentality students! Time to ween yourselves off the gov’mnt teat! /s - Anonymous - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 10:50 am: Are supplemental MAP grants, in addition to all the money the state spends running public universities and funding education, a core function of state government at a time like this? Are students taking additional school loans more important than funding WIC or some of the other areas previously mentioned? - Not Rich - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 10:50 am: Unless one of those kids losing a MAP grant is related to Sam Zell, or Ken G. I doubt the Gov cares - Joe M - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 10:52 am: The state universities are caught up in a double whammy. The above mentioned MAP grants delay. And they are still waiting to see what their appropriations will be from the state. Rauner’s budget called for a 31% cut. The GA-passed budget called for an 8.6% cut. Kind of hard to plan when they don’t know which scenario to plan for. The schools like EIU, WIU, NEIU, GSU, SIU-E rely the most on state appropriations because they don’t have the big grants coming in. - Abe the Babe - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 10:53 am: Rauner could offer free tickets to rascal flatts at the fair. That should ease the parents’ tension. - AC - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 10:59 am: “I’ve been a success at everything I’ve done.” Bruce Rauner. In the private sector, sure, but as a governor, I don’t see it. Unfair? Then tell me what he has been successful at so far. First, the poor and destitute, now the future middle class. I suspect the rate of return for the investment the state makes in MAP grants is significantly higher than most other places the state spends money. Is all this worth it in order to try to reduce union rights? - Joe M - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 10:59 am: ==Are supplemental MAP grants, in addition to all the money the state spends running public universities and funding education, a core function of state government at a time like this?== See how many businesses Illinois can attract or retain if its system of state universities goes downhill. Education is a good investment of state money. From a practical standpoint, employers want employees who have had a good education thru K-12, and through community colleges and universities. - Robert the Bruce - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:00 am: ===Are students taking additional school loans more important than funding WIC or some of the other areas previously mentioned?== I’d agree that the answer to this is No. WIC sure is highest on my list as is daycare assistance for low income working families. But in the long run, college tuition is a good investment. And I don’t believe one can simply download an app and hit the “new student loan now” button a couple weeks before school starts. - PublicServant - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:02 am: ===Are supplemental MAP grants, in addition to all the money the state spends running public universities and funding education, a core function of state government at a time like this? Are students taking additional school loans more important than funding WIC or some of the other areas previously mentioned?=== Thanks for asking! Yes, it’s a core function. As much as you’d like, we’re not going to play one vulnerable group off against another, but I’d love to see Rauner agree with your POV publicly. - Norseman - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:02 am: We’ve seen where college education rates in the Rauner priority system. Not much of a pressure point from his priority perspective. - Anonymous - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:04 am: I realize the fiscal situation that rests over the state, however we all need to be cognizant something must come to resolve. Trust me, I am no fan of the Gov., but I am aware to many monies got given out to special interests over the years. - Because I said so... - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:06 am: =Are supplemental MAP grants, in addition to all the money the state spends running public universities and funding education, a core function of state government at a time like this?= Sure, cut off kids from getting college degrees because times are bad. That will work just fine. There are plenty of jobs at McDonald’s waiting for them. Talk about being a business friendly state? Well, companies aren’t going to stay or come to Illinois if we don’t have an educated work force. The Governors says he wants students prepared for careers. It will be a fine career at McD’s. At the risk of being banned, bite me! - Tha missin g - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:08 am: There seems to be a theme here. I wonder if that socioeconomic group votes democrat or republican? - Anonymous - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:16 am: Let them take motorcycle classes! - Juvenal - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:24 am: === if tens of thousands of college students can’t afford to go back to school. === Imagine how they will feel when the universities run out of operating money in mid-September and tell the students they all have to go home. - How Ironic - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:25 am: Morning Rich, Donna Arduin today declared that MAP’s are no longer a luxury that Illinois can continue to provide to it’s poorest students. In this age of GPS and Google MAPs, why do we need to provide these handouts? Bruce supports this superstar’s position and invites all affected students to ‘draw their own darn MAPs’ if they need them so bad. Perhaps if Madigan can lead his legislators to strike down the MAP maker union, they can once again become affordable for the poorest students. Best, ck! - walker - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:33 am: Watch for it. Here comes the special legislation just to damp down the parents’ outrage. Pretty soon we’ll have already committed close to what the GA and Rauner both proposed in spending plans, and still have a revenue shortfall. Strange way to manage anything. - Arizona Bob - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:37 am: Depending on what the students are studying, the MAP grants may be a waste of money. Spending tens of thousands of dollars for a low income person to get a degree that will just earn them minimum wage, as is the case in many liberal arts curricula, might not be a good public economic “investment”. When I went to UIUC, and all financial aid was needs based. If you were lower middle class and your family owned a home, the Illinois state scholarship program wouldn’t give you a nickel regardless of your ACT and grades. I went into a work study program in order to afford college, and it worked for me, the U, my employers and the taxpayers. Converting MAP grants to work study opportunities should’ve happened a long time ago. I can’t think of a better time than this crisis. BTW, Arizona is taking the common sense approach to give financial aid to the best and the brightest to add to their economy. They give great academic scholarships to help out and attract both in state and out of state students, unlike Illinois. We need more college grads in business and engineering in Arizona, so the policy makes sense. Illinois has a net exodus of business and engineering majors to states like Iowa (ISU and UI) and Indiana (Purdue and IU). Illinois simply doesn’t have enough spots for them in the “money” curricula, in part because of University greed for foreign student tuition. Bad policy, bad policy goals, net losses to Illinois despite high cost, and net GAINS for states to which our best and brightest emigrate. Gotta change the culture, folks, and that ain’t happenin’ with the Dem cabal in charge… - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:38 am: If I’m a GOP legislator, and Rauner continues to take it upon himself to alloy pressure, alleviate pressure, adjudicate pressure, double cross me and my colleagues, to leave all that’s left is to vote for a tax increase to pay for things never spelled out in a passed and signed budget… … what is exactly going on in the Governor’s Office? - How Ironic - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:41 am: @ Arizona Bob - “Gotta change the culture, folks, and that ain’t happenin’ with the Dem cabal in charge…” When did Gov Rauner become a Democrat? Or are you now on the ‘Poor Bruce Rauner, the totally inept, feckless, powerless Gov, that has no responsibility, no power, and no voice”? train Bob? Just because Rauner pretends he has no power and voice, doesn’t make it true. - Shoe Searer - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:45 am: Maybe someone can help me understand what “can’t afford to go to school” means. As someone who had to take out several hundred thousand in loans between undergrad and grad school, I could not have afforded school but for the loans. That is how it works. You determine that the future income from employment obtained as a result of college / grad school will cover the repayment of loans that allowed you to go in the first place. You then choose to not spend time majoring in something completely useless that employers do not value. Government loans covered almost every necessity (and some luxuries) in my life for many years. Are there people who cannot obtain government loans? - Anonin' - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:47 am: Just plop it in the fed funds bill — heck put all the pas thru’s in - Joe M - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:49 am: ==I went into a work study program in order to afford college, and it worked for me, the U, my employers and the taxpayers.== Arizona Bob, when you went to the U of I, I’m guessing tuition was about $600 per year, fees were low, and textbooks weren’t a major financial hardship. Now tuition and fees at the U of I are $15,636 to $20,640 annually. R&B is $11,000 annually. Books are about $1200 annually. Other expenses come to $2500 annually. For a total of $30,346 to $35,350 annual costs. http://admissions.illinois.edu/Invest/tuition Kind of hard to earn that kind of money with a part-time work study job. - Anonymous - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:49 am: http://www.wiu.edu/news/newsrelease.php?release_id=12757 - Because I said so... - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:50 am: =Illinois has a net exodus of business and engineering majors= I believe that Illinois is currently the 3rd largest exporter of college students, possibly 2nd. These students leave and many never return. Illinois loses on all fronts; educated work force, tax paying citizens etc. Keep hammering at the public universities and the problem will only get worse. - thoughts matter - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 11:58 am: MAP grants aren’t for the middle class- they are for students too poor to go to college even with government student loans, and whose parents don’t qualify to co-sign for private loans to pay the difference. You get a maximum of $6500 a year in government loans as a freshman/sophomore in college. Refer back to the U of I costs quoted above. The students that get the map grants are trying desperately to fund college with combinations of loans, grants, work, and so forth. We are not talking about students whose parents are making up the difference between the $6500 and the cost. - walker - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 12:20 pm: Please read @thoughts matter 11:58 above, if you’re not sure what MAP grants are. That would have short circuited some of the previous comments. - Precinct Captain - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 12:39 pm: ==That would have short circuited some of the previous comments.== Doubt it. Why live in reality when you can live fact-free like AB? - Anonymous - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 12:39 pm: If the student has a 25 ACT they ought to look at Missouri State University or Murray in Kentucky. Cheaper than in-state at Illinois schools. I was very surprised to see so many northern Illinois high school seniors at the MSU tour. - JS Mill - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 12:39 pm: @AZ- LOL! Back on your game thankfully with John Stewart leaving the Daily Show I need the laughs./snark - Demoralized - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 12:54 pm: We can all stop commenting now. Arizona Bob has once again told us what the problems are, how Arizona is better than everyone else, and how we can solve the problems. Oh, and that once again it’s all the Democrats fault. Chalk up one more day of Arizona Bob’s “hate Illinois” diatribe. - Arizona Bob - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 12:55 pm: Joe M, back in 1971, when I started, the cost for tuition, books and dorms was about $1700 per year. That was about 1600 hours of min wage ($1.25/hr)work per year, almost full time. I needed to work (and save) during high school and work second jobs (KMart) while I was in work study, while also taking much cheaper JC classes evenings. It was tough, but it was doable. I was able to graduate from UIUC in 7 semesters down there, even though my HS didn’t give AP classes.It can be done if the student is serious enough. My family couldn’t help because my Dad was either on strike or laid off when the UAW strikes drove his company out of Chicago. Today, you better figure out that the cost for U of I is about $28K per year with room and board. That’s about 4200 min wage work hours per year,certainly too much to graduate on time. I can honestly say that UIUC students don’t get much of better education than I got, but a far more expensive one. The money didn’t go into better education, just more “pork” and overhead. the alumni association used to be a room in the Illini Union back then. Now they built a multimillion palace on campus and rent a couple floors of a Wacker Drive high priced building. If I was going to college today in Illinois, I’d go to inexpensive JC for two years then transfer. The quality of instruction in your first two years at Illinois state universities is below JC quality anyway, both in facilities and instructional staff. It doesn’t make sense to give MAP grants to marginal students in the first two years anyway. The program needs major reform. - Wordslinger - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 12:57 pm: Yes, AB, tell us more about “the culture.” You’re the Renaissance man of your time, what with all those big-gigs you’ve had across a range of disciplines in your amazing life up to now. - Demoralized - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 1:05 pm: == but a far more expensive one.== Wow. Who would have thought that going to college would be more expensive now than it was in 1971. What a brilliant analysis Bob. - Arizona Bob - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 1:11 pm: @Because I said so You’re absolutely right. Illinois financial aid system and university policy should be driven by bringing in those who will drive the Illinois economy, not just spend billions to create Emily Dickenson experts who’ll work for the minimum at Starbucks. It’s always interesting to read posts from those claiming that education is an “investment”, but when you ask why policies are not geared to maximize economic returns on that “investment” and how high the “return” on that investment has been relative to cost, all of a sudden education becomes about “equality” and “inclusiveness”. The sad fact is that Illinois education has, for a long time, been about feeding the political class needs for revenue and developing a political base (unions, contractors, etc) who’ll reward that political class. If it once again became about the best uses of economic resources to grow the economy, public education would be a much better place today in Illinois and its citizens more prosperous and happy… - Arizona Bob - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 1:13 pm: @Demoralized Once again you force me to explain the obvious to you. That it costs more is clear. WHY it costs more, and what value that extra expense brought, is the key issue. Don’t want to touch that one, do ya Dem?LOL - Demoralized - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 1:18 pm: Bob: Forgive me if I don’t take your value analysis as the gospel truth. I have no idea whether it is more or less “valuable.” But I’ll certainly note your “expert” opinion since you do, after all, know everything. You seem to be happy with the education you got and you yourself said you think their education is the same or better to what you received. So what’s your beef, Bob, other than your general anti-Illinois beef? - Demoralized - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 1:23 pm: ==WHY it costs more== I’m pretty certain most everything costs more now than it did in 1971. Perhaps you think they should all get paid 1971 wages again? I mean, the average income in 1971 was around $11,000 so maybe we should pay them that since what they are teaching now is no more valuable than it was then according to you. - RNUG - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 1:47 pm: == I’m pretty certain most everything costs more now than it did in 1971. == -demoralized-, I think you missed -arizona bob-s point. He translated it into minimum wage hours, a common denominator, for both periods in order to do the comparison. Using that measurement stick, it shows that (in the example cited) college is about 2.6 times more expensive today for a person earning minimum wage. We can have a discussion about the fact that minimum wage has not increased in lockstep with the CPI in this country. We can have a discussion about college costs increasing drastically faster than the CPI. We can even talk about the fact that, when a government funded college aid program is put in place, it seems that college costs go up even more than the supplied aid. But in this case, Arizona Bob is mostly right … college has gotten more expensive for the minimum wage earner. - Demoralized - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 1:56 pm: ==college has gotten more expensive for the minimum wage earner== Everything has gotten more expensive for the minimum wage earner. We’ll have to agree to disagree on Bob being “right.” - 47th Ward - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 2:37 pm: Anybody interested in why college costs have risen faster than CPI should start with understanding Baumol’s “cost disease.” Here’s a primer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease Key excerpt: “Since many public administration activities are heavily labor-intensive there is little growth in productivity over time because productivity gains come essentially from a better capital technology.” They don’t have chalkboards in colleges now. They have digital smart boards and wall-to-wall Wi-Fi and it costs a lot of dough to keep up to date on that stuff. Oh, and payroll goes up even if headcount remains flat. Cost disease helps explain health care inflation, higher ed tuition inflation and even why performing arts (including sports) tickets always get more expensive. Also, the Bennett hypothesis, that federal financial aid allows colleges to simply charge more, is false. https://www.acenet.edu/news-room/Documents/Heller-Monograph.pdf MAP was designed, in part, to keep Illinois students in Illinois. By almost every measure, MAP is a successful program and generates one of the best returns on state investment. Those are the facts. Everything else is a bunch of mis-informed spin. - Filmmaker Professor - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 2:54 pm: Arizona - please show me the data the proves that liberal arts graduates do no better financially then those who don’t graduate from college. Show me the data that MAP grants to liberal arts graduates is a money-loser. I’ll wait. - Midstate Indy - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 3:14 pm: Rauner, how many $75 gift cards would you have to give out to offset $271M worth of MAP grants to Illinois students that are trying to keep their heads above water and get an education? I didn’t go to Dartmouth, that long division is a bit more than I can swing I my head. - Real Data Matters - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 3:24 pm: Here is the data showing that liberal arts college majors do very well thank your very much and more than that provide invaluable talent to areas of our society that make us more humane. http://www.mass.edu/foradmin/trustees/documents/HowLiberalArtsandSciencesMajorFareinEmployment.pdf - CapnCrunch - Thursday, Aug 6, 15 @ 5:10 pm: -AB- Except for -RNUG- your comment flew over the heads of some folks here. I can add a stunning data point to your comment. In the summer of 1956, while a UIUC engineering student, I earned $300 a month. Tuition was $130 a year so I was earning enough each month to pay for 2.3 years of tuition. Today, with engineering tuition at $17,040/year, a summer job would have to pay $39,102 a month to cover the same period of tuition. One would have to be in the top 1% of taxpayers! - Arizona Bob - Friday, Aug 7, 15 @ 8:42 am: CapnCrunch I think you’re right. Sometimes I have to remember that I’m dealing with a lot of liberal arts majors here….LOL - Demoralized - Friday, Aug 7, 15 @ 9:21 am: ==Sometimes I have to remember that I’m dealing with a lot of liberal arts majors here….LOL== Always smarter than everyone else aren’t you Bob. Your arrogance is amazing. And just as an FYI I’ve been working in finance for 18 years. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.