Question of the Day
Friday, Aug 14, 2015 - Posted by Rich Miller
By Barton Lorimor Email | @bartonlorimor
* I found this study while researching the McQueary column.
A study of New Orleans schools that considered test results of only students that returned to NOLA after the storm and their cohorts was published recently and concluded…
Student academic performance has risen considerably in New Orleans over the last decade as most of the city’s public schools were turned into charters, according to the Education Research Alliance.
The education overhaul following Hurricane Katrina boosted student performance by eight to 15 percentage points in the last decade. (That’s effects of 0.2 to 0.4 standard deviations for the more statistically minded among you).
That range takes into account a variety of factors that could skew the numbers either way: the effects of trauma, population changes, test-based accountability, and students spending a spell in better-performing out-of-state schools after evacuating from New Orleans.
Assuming the research was done in good faith and without bias, it sounds like good news. But then you have to consider that this only puts New Orleans on par with school districts throughout the State of Louisiana, which is consistently rated as one of the worst in the nation. Progress, but where else is there to go if the only option is up?
One other major factor the study points out…
The national response to the hurricane aftermath was heartening, and for many young people, contributing to the rebuilding effort became a calling. Later, as the reform effort took hold, New Orleans also became the nation’s epicenter of school reform, an ideal place for aspiring reform-minded educators. Because the city is smaller than many urban districts, school leaders could be very selective in choosing from the pool of educators who wanted to come and work there.
The effects might also be smaller, at least in the short run, if the reforms were adopted on a statewide basis, because the reform is dependent on a specific supply of teachers. It seems difficult enough attracting effective teachers and leaders to work long hours at modest salaries in New Orleans; doing it throughout Louisiana is unrealistic without a major change in the educator labor market.
The full conclusions are here. Whether you think this is something to be explored or not, it’s an interesting read.
***The Question: How has your opinion of charter schools changed in recent years, if at all?
- foster brooks - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 7:37 am:
most residents in the 9th ward never returned to new orleans
- Excessively Rabid - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 8:07 am:
To answer the question, I have ceased to hope that charter schools are anything more than a racket driven by a toxic combination of finances and ideology. There’s plenty wrong with our schools, but this is not the answer, or even an answer.
- olddog - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 8:56 am:
You should be aware that those stats in the Douglas Harris article have been widely questioned, and Education Next is hardly regarded as a reliable source, since it “promotes alternatives to public education.” More here:
http://dianeravitch.net/2015/08/08/how-is-the-grand-experiment-in-new-orleans-working/
To the question: My opinion of charter schools has changed dramatically as the movement has changed, replacing innovative laboratory schools designed by professional educators with heavily scripted, one-size-fits-all curricula designed by for-profit corporations and delivered by ill-trained Teach for America novices. The United Church of Christ, which typically doesn’t operate parochial schools and isn’t promoting anything, has a good set of links in its fact sheet titled “Charter Schools and Charter School Management Organizations (CMOs) Are a Form of Privatization” at
http://www.ucc.org/justice_public-education_charter-schools-and-charter
- nona - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 8:58 am:
It appears charter schools overall do not outperform traditional public schools.
- commentator - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 9:00 am:
Its worth noting that Paul Vallas was in charge of New Orleans public schools after Katrina.
- thunderspirit - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 9:03 am:
== I have ceased to hope that charter schools are anything more than a racket driven by a toxic combination of finances and ideology. ==
I’m not sure I’ve ever agreed more wholeheartedly with something said here on CapFax than this statement.
- hisgirlfriday - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 9:22 am:
I continue to view the charter school proprietors as 1) crony capitalists using clout to collect taxpayer largesse for personal profit or egocentric vanity or 2) politically motivated union busters. in rauner’s case, maybe both.
btw wapo has an interesting story up about how theres a massive teacher shortage in indiana in the aftermath of years of teachers union busting and demonizing of the profession by that states republicans
- Wordslinger - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 9:23 am:
Yes. I now think they’re a scam by financiers and political hacks to score on the K-12 cash cow and bust unions without regard to educational achievement.
Diane Ravitch, former Bush education honcho and charter promoter, lays it out in “Reign of Error: The Hoax of the Privatization Movement and the Danger to America’s Public Schools.”
- Crispy - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 9:25 am:
Agree 100 percent with ER & olddog. Was involved with some early charter efforts in the late ’90s and early 2000s that were conceived as true public-private partnerships; however, since then the charter movement has been co-opted by those seeking to turn education into just another profit center, combined with the “government small enough to drown in a bathtub” crowd. (For examples of the former, see Mayor One Percent’s efforts in Chicago.) Nowadays, charters are a means to siphon off much-needed public school funds to put into the coffers of private business. Also, reputable studies show charters don’t improve outcomes vs. comparable public schools.
Anyone still sampling the charter snake oil should read olddog’s Dianne Ravitch links; she was an early proponent who is now a leading critic.
- Annon3 - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 9:27 am:
Agree with Oldsog
- Team Sleep - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 9:50 am:
Not sure about charter schools. I wonder if they could succeed if given a fair shake. In a state like Illinois, there are so many forces going against the concept and no one seems to have any patience.
In the example of NOLA, the system has been around and in place for less than a decade. How long do we give a program/concept/policy before we declare it a waste and move on?
I am much more in favor of a voucher system. I could care less if people on this blog want to dump on me for saying that. Springfield’s public schools are mediocre at best. The school district is rife with mismanagement and low expectations. The school board is a mess. We continue to lose high property tax areas to surrounding communities. Allowing families to utilize our private school system is sorely needed. That is but one example, but we have a screaming need to try something different to truly help out our poorer students.
- Wordslinger - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 9:59 am:
TS, forces in Illinois that are pushing charter schools include Rauner, Madigan and Emanuel. Hardly overmatched underdogs.
- Team Sleep - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 10:08 am:
Word - when battling teachers and teacher’s unions, though, that is a pretty even matchup. Rich is definitely right to point out that teachers, police and firefighters are unique in that every community has them. That makes the “fight” - so to speak - much different. And when the IFT and IEA are lockstep against charter schools, they are able to fight that fight at both the local and state level.
- olddog - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 10:09 am:
@ Team Sleep 9:50am === … we have a screaming need to try something different to truly help out our poorer students. ===
I agree. Why don’t we try funding the schools at the recommended minimum foundation level?
http://www.isbe.state.il.us/budget/FY14/fact-sheet4-efab.pdf
- Nick Danger - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 10:23 am:
Interestingly NPR has been in NO reporting on the same charter school experiment and have found that they are not performing as expected and under-performing in many aspects. Also, the costs are as high or higher than public schooling. Not what I expected.
- Excessively Rabid - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 10:44 am:
==The school district is rife with mismanagement and low expectations. The school board is a mess.==
TS, a little about that. We are of course talking about district 186. The prior supt turned out to be a real problem and was more interested in marketing himself (and his book, “The Making of Me”) than running the district. A majority of the board would not have renewed his contract; his three supporters waited until two of his four opponents were out of town and gave him a new contract with only three votes. Difficulties ensued. The board was perceived by some as “a mess” because of having to clean this up and find a way to get rid of the guy. It was a hard and thankless job but they did it. Most of the board has since turned over and there is a different, and outstanding, superintendent now. My impression is that things starting to run better in that district than they have any time since I moved here in the 1980’s.
- West Sider - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 10:52 am:
TS-I am much more in favor of a voucher system. I could care less if people on this blog want to dump on me for saying that.—-
After having advocated for Charters, and having sent my child to one for a time, I have evolved to agree with those above, that Charters are a classest attempt to do education on the cheep, while lining the pockets of the well-to-do. The are arrogant, in their presumption.
But to your point about vouchers- the fundamentally most destructive part of Charters has been the concept of portability. Having the money following the students seems entirely reasonable on it’s face. But. In reality, instead of added value, and resources for poorer communities, portablity strips money, and by money, I mean teachers from neighborhood schools, no matter how they perform. If anything, struggling schools need far more investment- not less.
This is part of why Illinois is such a mess.
- Arizona Bob - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 10:59 am:
=Assuming the research was done in good faith and without bias, it sounds like good news. But then you have to consider that this only puts New Orleans on par with school districts throughout the State of Louisiana, which is consistently rated as one of the worst in the nation. Progress, but where else is there to go if the only option is up?=
Barton, as you study more about public education you’ll find that it’s not uncommon for a public school district performance to go from bad to worse, not matter how low performance is. This was proven in the DC schools, where they spend about the highest amount of any state system, but accomplishes less for the students with those gargantuan resources than just about any state.
It’s a racket that often school administrators commit fraud to avoid. It’s tougher to ask for more money when the last increase you got didn’t result in improved outcomes. They just had another problem with this in Atlanta/Georgia.
- Formerly Known As... - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 11:12 am:
Kudos to Paul Vallas.
With the continued underperformance of so many schools, any alternative becomes more appealing that is not a for profit system. Charters should not be for profit businesses, but our school system in many areas has failed.
- Tha missin g - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 11:15 am:
“The costs are as high or higher than public schooling”
So under the guise of smaller government they have been able to extract the same amount of tax dollars, provided an inferior product, and made themselves a profit.
If the “middle man” is not involved, that “profit” goes to school to pay for salaries, pensions, programs, etc..
Smaller government just means I want to privatize your institutions and keep a lion share of the money for themselves. All we need now is someone to take over the government, break the unions , and vilify the greedy star workers and teachers.
- olddog - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 11:20 am:
Arizona Bob, as you study more about public education, you’ll find that it’s not uncommon for charter school performance to be about the same as the public schools, and sometimes to go from bad to worse, in spite of the sweetheart deals they get on the taxpayers’ dollar.
For example, “in 2013, CPS schools had a higher percentage of elementary students who exceeded the standards for state tests for reading and math than the schools that are privately run with Chicago taxpayer funds,” the Chicago Sun-Times reported of one analysis.
You’re free to argue your ideological agenda, but please do your homework first.
http://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/7/71/167471/a-push-for-charter-schools-but-little-difference-in-test-scores
- From the 'Dale to HP - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 11:37 am:
If charter schools are the answer, then you’re asking the wrong question.
How many charters are in Keniworth? Winnetka? Hinsdale? And if there aren’t any there (spoiler: there are not) then why aren’t they in those districts?
- zatoichi - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 11:44 am:
The local charter school started with lots of promise. Since then it has moved 3 times and none of the reported results are better than the local public school. However the charter also does not have students with serious behavioral and disability issues which the public system has in significant numbers.
- Liberty - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 11:49 am:
ACT test scores for Illinois and Chicago show we already have decent schools.
- Federalist - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 12:22 pm:
Until there is a cohesive and caring family that has concern about their children’s education then relying on Charter Schools as a savior of education is a myth.
In this case it is a myth of the right wing ideologues who hate public schools and unionized teachers.
- Arizona Bob - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 12:50 pm:
old dog, I’m no big fan of Charter schools. I’ve found that they’re largely run by retirees from failed public school systems, and their mindset really isn’t that much different from the public schools when it comes to instruction and expectations. I found a lot more quality coming from magnet schools like Decatur Classical back in the day.
The folks running the charters always seem to have heavy political connections, which further hurts their credibility.
They should be able to produce better results than the mainstream for FAR less cost given their mission and lack of union hindrances, but it doesn’t seem to be happening.
I MUCH prefer giving vouchers to kids to choose the schools they want, whether in private or other public schools. They should be provided the same funding that they would have gotten in their public school system, minus fixed costs in the public school.
That’s the REAL free market that can provide for the contact hours the kids need to be successful, as well as the innovative techniques and school culture that’s needed for change.
Just my two cents worth….
- @MisterJayEm - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 12:55 pm:
“I have ceased to hope that charter schools are anything more than a racket driven by a toxic combination of finances and ideology.”
Exactly this.
– MrJM
- Cheswick - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 1:45 pm:
== I MUCH prefer giving vouchers to kids to choose the schools they want, whether in private or other public schools. They should be provided the same funding that they would have gotten in their public school system, minus fixed costs in the public school. ==
I am willing to be convinced on vouchers. How would it work in a place like Cairo? Or over much of rural Illinois?
- Gage Park - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 2:05 pm:
The charter numbers are too good to be true. Consistently, charters weed out struggling students and dump them to the local public schools. Not to mention, they already don’t take in (and are not equipped) to receive students with more significant educational challenges.
- Team Sleep - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 2:07 pm:
Cheswick - this is just my take, but what I would envision happening under a real, full-fledged voucher system is that local entities or parochial institutions would band together and open up a school or school system. My guess is that some tax and construction credits would be made available for rural areas where there are no existing private schools. I could be wrong, but I cannot imagine that rural counties would be told “sorry” when there are opportunities available.
When I was growing up, we had a handful of very small private schools in our county. The closest “good” private school system was 45 minutes away. Many parents lamented not having a viable option, and the only two “options” for my and other parents were to stay put or move for the kids’s education(s). But if a voucher program had been in place, there would have certainly been a demand for a separate, private school in the county and I would be that parents would have driven their children to such a school.
- Cheswick - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 2:24 pm:
@Team Sleep: That’s one blank I could never fill in. Thank you. Makes sense.
- bluecollargal - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 2:27 pm:
The charter school movement is a chief beneficiary of the New Market Tax Credit. A very lucrative federal tax opportunity that hedge funders love to take advantage of. New Market Tax Credits were offered in New Orleans post Katrina. Why do you think Bruce Rauner and his friends invest in charters? Follow the $.
- Team Sleep - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 2:32 pm:
Welcome. And thank you for thinking I made some sense.
- Federalist - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 2:36 pm:
I believe the New Market Tax Credit died in 2014.
Am I wrong, was there an extension?
- Ghost - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 3:18 pm:
On the plus side, I think charter schools get parents and students more vested in their education.
Most of the studies I have seen suggest academically not much difference, but you have greater pride and moral with the charters.
The big concern is the dumping of kids who need special services and are very expensive to educate. But perhaps this can be worked out.
Either require charter schools to provide these services in proportion to the percentage of students they have from the local population. Or if we shift a lot of students to charter schools, perhaps we could consolidate and build new public schools which are better setup to provide specialized services.
At the heart of it I think this debate focuses too much and pro or anti charter school, and doesn’t focus on problem solving.
I would suggest we should have many more charter schools, and produce solutions for the problems this creates, not just say no charter schools
- Demoralized - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 3:30 pm:
==How would it work in a place like Cairo? Or over much of rural Illinois?==
It wouldn’t. Vouchers would only be successful if there were actual opportunity for competition. In a large part of the state that’s not possible. I grew up in a small town in central Illinois. If my parents had vouchers I would have gone to the same school. Of course in those cases vouchers won’t hurt those schools.
- bluecollargal - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 3:42 pm:
New Market Tax Credit was extended once but I think it did expire last year. However, it was a big driver of charter movement especially post Katrina.
- olddog - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 4:12 pm:
@ AZ Bob and Team Sleep –
I share your low opinion of charter school operators with “heavy political connections,” and I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with “a real, full-fledged voucher system” as long doesn’t further undermine the public schools. Maybe I’m naive, but I think at some point in the future we could accomplish that purpose in connection with a through overhaul of the school funding formula in the spirit of Article X of the state constitution. But charter schools, as they are now constituted, have little place in an “efficient system of high quality public educational institutions and services.”
- olddog - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 4:19 pm:
Oops! When I just said “accomplish that purpose,” I didn’t mean undermining the public schools. (What I said was pretty sloppy for an old English teacher!) What I meant was we might be able to establish an equitable funding system that would include vouchers as one of its components.
- Ghost - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 4:27 pm:
Suggestion for tomorrows question: “Should the State have a private foundation or private manager run the State Fairs and handle the State fair grounds?”
- Enviro - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 4:34 pm:
Before Hurricane Katrina, New Orleans black citizens accounted for two-thirds of the population, but now it is only one-half. The reason student academic performance has risen in New Orleans over the last decade may have more to do with the displacement of the lower income black residents.
- MyTwoCents - Friday, Aug 14, 15 @ 6:08 pm:
If there ever was a voucher program in Illinois there would have to be some controls over the curriculum in the private schools. As a homeowner and taxpayer I would be none to happy if my tax dollars went to schools teaching that man walked the Earth with dinosaurs or the KKK was just a bunch of guys who liked to ride horses together (see Louisiana).