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Charters say they’re doing pretty well
Thursday, Nov 5, 2015 - Posted by Rich Miller * Other than the fear of competition by existing schools and the lack of automatic union enrollment, I don’t really get the virulent opposition to charter schools. Are there problems with some charters? Heck, yes. But, to me, there ought to be alternatives to the industrial model school system for people who can’t afford private schools. Charters aren’t for everybody, but that’s precisely the point.
Discuss. …Adding… The IFT asks that you click here.
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- Anonin' - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:11 am:
yawn
- Short but Slow - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:17 am:
Hard to get too excited about the stats for either district or charter schools. 24% dropout rate? 30% don’t go to college?
- Obamas Puppy - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:22 am:
Governor says he has big plans for education and later the same week charters pipe up about their results. Coordinated campaign run through the Guvs office to undermine public education, #turnaroundpart2
- Johnny Pyle Driver - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:25 am:
I’m by no means an education expert, but I’ve always been under the impression that charter schools naturally have better outcomes because they can be selective in who they let in, which sorta runs counter to the mandate for districts. Always willing to hear different though, not that charters are an option for where I live anyway
- dzipio - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:26 am:
And these are their numbers, right? So after cherry picking students this is the best they can do? BTW the problem is they don’t have to open their books like public schools even though they get tax money.
- 47th Ward - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:27 am:
I’d be interested in seeing some other statistical comparisons, like dollars spent per student. Are they each performing poorly for roughly the same cost, or are charters performing poorly for less?
Also, earnings per share, but I suppose that would only apply to the charters.
- JoanP - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:30 am:
@ Johnny Pyle Driver -
A definite point. Read the recent article in the New York Times about how charters there are pushing kids out. One even had a “Got to Go” list: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/30/nyregion/at-a-success-academy-charter-school-singling-out-pupils-who-have-got-to-go.html?ref=education
- From the 'Dale to HP - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:30 am:
“Charters aren’t for everybody” that’s the problem… too many families are forced into charters or charters suck up the resources for the school across the street. (not to mention the possible corruption surrounding charters).
If charters are so great, why aren’t they in any of the wealthy areas of Illinois?
- walker - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:30 am:
If they’re succeeding, even if only marginally better than average, why is it? They make sense as innovative labs, if nothing else.
- From the 'Dale to HP - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:33 am:
Also, compare charters to CPS magnet schools (which really should be the comparison) and it’s not even close, CPS run magnets crush the charters.
Congrats on (maybe) being “better” than the neighborhood school that has lost millions in resources and has to educate every child—no matter what, charters!
- Anonymous - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:34 am:
Rich, I agree with you.
Charter schools are a needed alternative, but parents need to know they have to be involved.
- Robert the Bruce - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:36 am:
You generally have to apply to be in a charter. Even if it is a very short application, and a lottery to get in, sadly, some parents aren’t able to do that.
As a result, kids with parents who aren’t willing/able to find a better school end up in the neighborhood non-charter school. No surprise, these neighborhood schools end up looking bad compared with charters.
I’m all for charters taking over 100% failing neighborhood schools. But make them take all kids, not just the kids who have parents who do the application.
- Formerly Known As... - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:37 am:
==yawn==
Because improving dropouts rates and education are so unimportant. /s
- No Longer A Lurker - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:37 am:
I don’t think charters, and I may be wrong, have the same accountability to the state as the public schools and that’s why I’m somewhat opposed to them.
- AnonymousOne - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:38 am:
Non-selective are the only two words that matter.
- Tuesday's Pizza - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:38 am:
So, for profit schools get tax money? How much per student? Do they build their own buildings? Do they have a school board? I’m not versed on charter schools.
- nobody - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:39 am:
But the funding decreases resources available to district schools (no separate pot of money for Charters) attracts motivated kids with motivated parents and decreases the number of those types of students in regular district schools. We need a much more complete review of what needs to be done to transform (not reform) public education. Most people don’t want to hear what really needs to be done because it is not free and will take hard work.
- Not quite a majority - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:39 am:
Unfortunately, special ed students are cut out of the charter option. Often they’re even cut out of the private school option at the high school level (we were told to go to public school where they could ‘do a better job addressing our needs’) My biggest problem with charters is that they aren’t a ‘total solution’ that many pols make them out to be — but are great if you have a ‘best and brightest’ kid who can’t afford/aren’t interested in the private options available.
- archimedes - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:40 am:
Charter Schools main value is as a model or experimental design.
A Charter School doesn’t have to provide the mandates that a public school has to - daily PE, driver education, nursing services, dual language, ESL, special education, etc. etc. Yet, the charter will receive 75% to 125% of the public school’s per capita tuition charge (the amount within this range is in the contract). The per capita tuition charge is the annual cost per pupil (attendance, not enrolled) less offsetting state and federal resources.
The best comparison of a charter school would include the demographics of the students enrolled compared to the public school. Too often, the charter school has significantly fewer students that need added services (and costs). Yet, the Charter will still get the dollar amount from the public school.
If a charter school exceeds the public school performance with similar demographics, it makes an excellent case for the public school to adopt those changes modeled by the charter school. This is the real value. It may mean that laws and regulations for the public school have to change.
- Pius - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:41 am:
Having a child with a learning disability, any school that is supported by public $$$ should/must provide the required services/aid that is needed for such children. No exceptions.
- Formerly Known As... - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:42 am:
==charter schools naturally have better outcomes because they can be selective in who they let in==
From Polaris Charter Academy
==Illinois charter schools are required by law to admit district students who apply on a first-come, first-served basis. The only priority is given to siblings of students already in the school. If there are too many applicants for available spots, the law requires the school to admit students by lottery.==
- nobody - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:44 am:
==Illinois charter schools are required by law to admit district students who apply on a first-come, first-served basis. The only priority is given to siblings of students already in the school. If there are too many applicants for available spots, the law requires the school to admit students by lottery.==
Motivated students with motivated parents!
- Robert the Bruce - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:46 am:
“who apply” is a key part of that quote, FKA. That already biases any results study. The most troubled students can slow down a classroom. The most troubled students often don’t have parents who will apply.
- Formerly Known As... - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:47 am:
@Not quite a majority, that is a good point. They often exclude special needs students and get public $ to do it.
@Pius +1
- Spiritualized - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 11:47 am:
Charter schools - according to the school code - cannot be selective, at least up-front. However, they do expel at higher rates (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-02-26/news/ct-chicago-schools-discipline-met-20140226_1_charter-schools-andrew-broy-district-run-schools) and there is not a state law requiring students on charter school waitlists to have access to a charter seat when a student is expelled or transfers - what’s traditionally called backfilling (http://schoolreports.cps.edu/NewSchools/RFPs/14-15_NobleNetworkOfCharterSchools/150520.Noble%20responses.pdf). In my mind, at the end of the day, a charter school network like Noble is doing a better job of teaching low-income, minority students than many of its neighboring public schools, but not as much as it or INCS claims.
- Formerly Known As... - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 12:01 pm:
@Robert the Bruce, well said. How do we get those students into the schools providing better results? Through auto-enrollment? Would that hand charter schools control of entire local schools and replace the local public schools? Could Karen Lewis and CTU ever support that? idk
Also relevant is yesterday’s news only 25% of CPS eighth grade students are proficient in math.
- some doofus - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 12:03 pm:
Charters “can’t be selective up front”. Except that they’re still application-based, so the pool they start with is strictly those students with parents interested enough to try to move them.
If someone wants to make a genuine case for charters, push for a law allowing a charter company to run a true neighborhood school accepting all comers in the boundaries.
Till then, post charter stats next to those of the other selective schools, not the neighborhood schools.
- Chris - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 12:03 pm:
“The IFT asks that you click here.”
So, Skokie has a 9% poverty rate. Does anyone know how CPS schools with 9% poverty rate perform?
I do: they are great. If CPS served a population with 9% poverty, there wouldn’t be much of a demand for charters.
So it seems that IFT’s preference is that we change the demographics of Chicago, and that would make all the schools better. I couldn’t agree more.
- Buzzie - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 12:04 pm:
Discussions comparing charter to regular public schools always seem to focus on financial and student enrollment considerations. What is almost never discussed is the academic methodologies which are implemented. It is often assumed that the charter schools utilize instructional strategies which are superior to those in the regular schools. The fact is that anyone would be hard pressed to find charter school instructional methods which the regular public school teachers use in their classrooms. The “teacher network” reaches almost all teachers no matter their respective types of school. If there are methods and strategies which are ways of improving student learning then a majority of teachers would use them. The fact is, the instructional quality is basically the same in almost all these various schools.
- Anderson Villy - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 12:17 pm:
CPS has open enrollment schools and selective enrollment schools. They shouldn’t be referred to interchangeably. Selective enrollment schools award slots based on achievement and ability. Open enrollment schools operate similarly to charters - first come, first served basis but families need to make the effort to enroll. (One confounding factor is often CPS will operate schools that are a hybrid of open enrollment and neighborhood school).
It’s not fair to compare a Noble school to Farragut, but also not fair to compare it to Jones College Prep.
- Team Sleep - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 12:21 pm:
Just using Springfield as an example - you know, since all politics is local - Ball Charter’s board and staff do not “pick” students.
http://www.sps186.org/schools/ballcharter/?p=269&b=35
- bored now - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 12:30 pm:
i’m not virulently against charter schools. but they should be held to the same standards (including whatever testing regimes we impose on public schools) and they should be held accountable *if* they pursue public dollars…
- JS Mill - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 12:33 pm:
If charters are so awesome (national data over more than 20 years says they perform about the same overall) then I would like to see there advocates in the executive and legislative branch put their money where their mouth is and propose legislation that extends the rules for charter school to all publicly funded schools.
Until that happens, and it won’t, they are just cherry picking and trying to divert more and more public money to private enterprise and pet projects.
- Archiesmom - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 12:34 pm:
Call me a socialist, but I believe that a national public school system should provide a quality education for all children, with no need for charter schools. That said, what I’ve seen in this state over the last ten years makes me wonder if that’s possible. Politics, pensions, graft, corruption, carving up a system so higher ups all get a piece of the pie. Do charter schools make that better or worse?
- Educated in the Suburbs - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 12:42 pm:
Rich, you’re usually such an advocate for Illinois children. It’s troubling to see you advocate for a system designed to exclude the highest-need children and ensure they’re warehoused in failed schools.
- Mike Czaplicki - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 12:46 pm:
I’m not a fan of charters, but I know one of the smarter true believers in that field. He recently published a good piece that challenges the idea of cream skimming (something I’ve frequently hurled at him), at least in the case of the closely watched experiment in Newark.
https://www.the74million.org/article/the-prize-the-unwritten-appendix-by-those-inside-newarks-improving-schools
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 12:55 pm:
===for a system designed to exclude the highest-need children===
Not advocating for that at all. I am advocating for giving parents a choice within public education.
- Robert the Bruce - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 12:57 pm:
FKA@12:01 pm, idk either. I’d love to see autoenrollment that you describe. I wonder whether either side (the charter school movement or teachers unions) would support this, or would both be afraid of this fair test of the charter model?
- Mason born - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 1:03 pm:
An observation charters are required to take all who apply based on availability. The key imho is apply. In order to apply the parent and or child has to be willing to make the effort and logically put more effort into the school work.
I have two in laws who are in public ed one administrator one special ed. They have stated many times the biggest hindrance to struggling students is parental apathy.
How do we fix that??
- Team Sleep - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 1:14 pm:
The application portion that people bring up kind of bothers me. You have to apply for everything - including any form of public assistance - and you have to fill out at least perfunctory paperwork for your kids to attend school. So why not apply for your kid to attend a charter school? Can that process really be that much worse than filling out the dearth of required paperwork before every school year?
- Enviro - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 1:40 pm:
When charter schools say they are doing well, are they talking about the profits gained because of generous tax credits?
- Anonymous - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 1:46 pm:
“Not advocating for that at all. I am advocating for giving parents a choice within public education”
Amen,
And speaking of parents, the article in the NY Times did not include any quotes from the parents of other students who were in a classroom with a student who “…. was repeatedly suspended for screaming, throwing pencils, …..refusing to go to another classroom for a timeout.” And who are Charter school critics anyway, charter school students, their parents, who?
- crazybleedingheart - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 1:47 pm:
Selling the parking meters, what’s the big deal.
Selling the tollways, what’s the problem.
Privatizing public services, no biggie.
All of this has worked so flawlessly and so reliably to benefit the public interest, it makes complete sense we’d want to expand the experiment to children. /s
- CapnCrunch - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 1:48 pm:
-Anonymous- at 1:46 was me
- zatoichi - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 1:57 pm:
Local charters around me in rural Illinois came in with lots of PR and promises. Local results just came out compared to local districts. Not so good. Regular public schools were not great, but they still out scored the charters on almost everything.
- Anonymous - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 2:03 pm:
=== Call me a socialist, but I believe that a national public school system should provide a quality education for all children, with no need for charter schools. ===
Education policy has been a much higher priority topic now that the Catholic school system has become unaffordable to most Chicago families. The problem is that most of the Catholic schools were very successful at educating children, with well over 90% of these children going on to attend college. Now with tuition at even the cheapest of Catholic high schools reaching five figures, parents want acceptable alternatives. They aren’t necessarily concerned with whether the schools are public or private - just that their children receive an education that will allow them to accomplish what they want to in life.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 2:06 pm:
===I believe that a national public school system should provide a quality education for all children, with no need for charter schools===
Try living in the real world.
- Formerly Known As... - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 2:11 pm:
@Robert the Bruce - You probably nailed it in both being too afraid to ever try it.
Parents should have more choice, including parents with special needs kids.
- Ricardo - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 2:16 pm:
CPS runs essentially three types of school: Selective Enrollment; which are highly competitive, require a test to get in and accept only a fraction of the kids who apply. Magnet Schools; which usually offer specialized instruction (like technology programs or the Agricultural school) and admit students who apply through a lottery. And Neighborhood Schools; which accept anyone who shows up to enroll as long as they live in the area — though the attendance boundaries are often ignored. Chicago Charters admit students the same way Magnet School do, but when they release comparison studies the Charters always measure themselves against Neighborhood Schools. Why? Because the CPS Magnet Schools clearly outperform charters.
Charters in Chicago are not new, they’ve been around for almost 20 years. The data is pretty conclusive, when you do an apples-to-apples comparison charters fall short. Time to try something else.
- Formerly Known As... - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 2:21 pm:
The Illinois Report Card was released last week.
==State education data released Friday as part of the annual Illinois Report Card show Illinois high schools are sending many graduates to college unprepared.
Illinois State Board of Education data show that at the 666 Illinois high schools that have ACT scores, 482 schools had more than half of their graduates unable to score at least 21. That score is the national average on the 36-point college entrance exam, and it’s a barometer the state uses to determine if students are ready for college.
Just 24.9 percent of this year’s Illinois public school graduates scored high enough on each of the ACT’s four subjects to be considered prepared for college. That’s up from 24.2 percent last year, the Chicago Tribune reports. Only 26 high schools had at least 50 percent of graduates considered college-ready in the subjects this year.==
- Robert the Bruce - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 2:34 pm:
==Parents should have more choice==
I think that’s the bottom line here. When offered the choice, parents often fill out the apps for several magnets and charters that are located where they can get their kids to school, even though each is at least a little bit less convenient geographically than their neighborhood school.
There is the very unfortunate side effect that the kids with the least involved parents end up in even worse neighborhood schools, since the involved parents take the better adapted/harder working/more parental involved students out of the neighborhood schools.
I think what nobody in the charter school movement wants to admit is that, by allowing parents some choice, there are other kids who are being left even further behind.
But, absent charters and magnets, involved parents who don’t have money and live in tough neighborhoods have no choice but to send their kid to a lousy school. That’s gotta trump everything else. At least some kids have more opportunity.
Anyway, I’d love to see Chicago take the worst 10 performing schools, give 5 to charters (no app required; you just get the neighborhood kids) and give 5 to new principals/CTU staff. See who does better.
- Numbers - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 3:05 pm:
@47th - Charter schools in Chicago receive as much or more funding per pupil as traditional public schools.
- Skeptic - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 3:15 pm:
“Motivated students with motivated parents!” That.
- chiagr - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 3:43 pm:
read the links on the IFT website. Charter Schools are not subject to the same standards as our Public schools. There is a big push underway to change that. There is nothing selective about the Charter Schools. They take everybody. Some of the Noble Network schools might be an exception but the majority of them want students. The more students the more money. The Teachers in Charter Schools DO NOT HAVE TO BE ENDORSED in the subject area they are teaching. In a neighborhood school Teachers can only teach what they are endorsed in.
On the IFT website they have a lot of data regarding Charters compared to neighborhood schools. The Chicago Board of Education just put 10-12 Charter Schools that are not performing on a watch list.Also this isn’t anything to do with Unions-a lot of charter School teachers are members of the IFT Union.Also- The schools in CPS have improved greatly in the last 5 years.Last week there was an article about science and math tests scores increasing.
- AnonymousOne - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 4:22 pm:
Mason Born re; parental apathy
Those children (who have apathetic parents) are the luckier of the troubled bunch. Unless you work inside a classroom, the average person would be shocked to the bone at how many children come from homes with real problems-serious problems–that affect how they can function every day. As years have passed by, the numbers of those children seem to increase. So, with respect to charter schools, if you have “plugged in” students, ready to learn with home lives that are somewhat normal/normal, you have tremendous advantage as a school.
With respect to methodology: teachers know what methods work not only for a particular class but also for individual students. What works for a class of high functioning students will not work with low or mixed. It’s ridiculous to talk about methodologies that “work” when any professional knows that it is a variety and highly variable. Good teachers know how to use what…..when.
- PENSIONS ARE OFF LIMITS - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 4:35 pm:
A +8% increase in graduation? Not very good at picking cherries in my opinion. The college enrollment figure is too dependent on outside sources. These figures are not impressive.
- Last Bull Moose - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 7:50 pm:
Charter schools in rich areas are called prep schools; Andover, St. Paul’s, Lake Forest Academy.
I do not understand people who think it is bad for people to have choices. Do they favor arranged marriages and drafting people into jobs?
Charter schools are not automatic solutions to educational problems. Some will be good and some will be scams. Over time, the better ones thrive and the worst go away. It will be messy.
- Gage Park - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 8:24 pm:
I have no problem with charters if they too had attendance boundaries. As someone that works in a neighborhood, we constantly see our feeder middle schools send their top 10-20% to selective enrollment/charter. On top of that, we then get all of the ones the charters kick-out. Not to mention a lack of accomodations to ELLs…
- PENSIONS ARE OFF LIMITS - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 8:56 pm:
Bull Moose and Gage Park: What happens to the kids that don’t get “picked?”
- Last Bull Moose - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 9:28 pm:
Parents choose. Not sure who is “picking”.
Some people are harder to serve. The system could have incentives to serve particular groups. No system will get everyone to college. Nor should it
The goal is to get more people to better outcomes than we do today. I can vote for higher taxes to fund a better system.
- PENSIONS ARE OFF LIMITS - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 10:39 pm:
The schools are selective….Kids get left out. This does not provide equal education for everyone. Not to mention someone makes money off of it…..
- PENSIONS ARE OFF LIMITS - Thursday, Nov 5, 15 @ 10:55 pm:
Get rid of charter schools or make every school a charter school. Children are guaranteed an equal education. No school should be perceived as better than any other. Private schools exist for the elitists. Transportation costs are killing the districts and private schools should not get transportation money from the State.
- Yobogoya - Friday, Nov 6, 15 @ 2:03 am:
“Other than the fear of competition by existing schools and the lack of automatic union enrollment, I don’t really get the virulent opposition to charter schools.”
There’s one other thing: charter schools throw a wrench into the left’s faith-based belief in the primacy of Government. You want to rile people up? Mess with their religion.
- See the forest - Friday, Nov 6, 15 @ 5:02 am:
Charter schools drain taxpayer money away from public schools, yet they are immune to laws that make them accountable, such as Open Meetings Act and the Freedom of Information Act. Public schools are part of the commons, and are a cornerstone of democracy. Charter school operators want it both ways - charter schools are “public” when it comes to funding, but “private” when it comes to accountability. At a time when poverty is increasing and schools are struggling with underfunding, charter schools don’t make sense from a civic point of view. Politically connected operators making a nice profit off the backs of school children and Illinois taxpayers will probably beg to differ.
As far as their population of SPED student, it would be interesting to see what categories those students fall into. Students who require speech therapy (speech impairment is the largest category of the 13 SPED categories) require far less resources than those in other categories requiring more intensive management.
- See the forest - Friday, Nov 6, 15 @ 5:07 am:
A few other quick points:
- An elected CPS school board would be far more accountable than what we have under mayoral control.
- CPS is getting ready to use taxpayer dollars to reward Goldman Sachs and the Pritzker family via social impact bonds:
“The Chicago Public Schools will be paying Goldman Sachs and the Chicago Pritzkers $9,100 for each child EACH YEAR avoiding special education in a one-sided agreement where Goldman and the Pritzkers could double their money.
In addition Goldman Sachs and the Pritzkers will receive up to $3,650 for each student if they score high enough on the PARCC tests (or, according to the agreement, on some other test if the results on PARCC are not high enough).”
It’s already being done in Utah.
https://preaprez.wordpress.com/2015/10/11/sunday-posts-pics-and-tweets-25/
- See the forest - Friday, Nov 6, 15 @ 5:10 am:
Here is another follow-up link to the Goldman-Sachs and Pritzker plan:
https://preaprez.wordpress.com/2015/10/17/get-goldman-sachs-and-pay-for-success-out-of-esea-reauthorization/