Sadly the Tribune editorial board is responding to the sound bite nature of today’s world. Facts have become increasingly less important. That’s why we have candidates for office promising to “make America great again” and a large number of voters are willing to say “works for me”. The Trib is playing to that room.
- My New Handle - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 10:41 am:
The prez might have been referring to Rauner as well.
===(R)eason matters, facts matter; issues are complicated. When folks just make stuff up, they can’t go unchallenged.===
For me, just me, I think the issues with the Governor and his Administration, let alone their supporters, is the premise that if they just “say it”, no would should challenge him, them, and instead of a dialog as to the facts of ANY issue (Payton Prep, Donating to Democrats, Election Nite phone call, Cullerton Support…) it is not “good enough” to say “that’s baloney” and move on, and moving on entails talking points either directly or indirectly challenging those who question the Governor, the Adminstration, Allies, or even supporters.
Have the discussions, admit mistakes, move on, be better, make a case, add pertinent facts, and win the day, even the media day with the best, strongest argument, or be critically honest about their own missteps.
I like the President’s line a lot.
Facts matter as the basis, the foundation of the argument. Let’s start there.
- Chicago Cynic - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 10:51 am:
Amen Barack. I say this all the time. Facts matter. Fortunately for the Trib edit board and Gov. Rauner, they’re not tethered to such niceties.
It was the standout quote for me, as well. Given the venue, I felt he was referring to Rauner — although it applies as well to every other mealy-mouthed mediator of misinformation.
Reason matters, facts matter, issues are complicated. When folks just make stuff up, they can’t go unchallenged. And for those reasons, I have been unable to bring myself to subscribe to the Tribune.
As for Rauner, he’s DQ’d with the very first two words of that quote.
Jeez from the guy whose speeches are filled with strawman arguments? From the guy who embraced Wall Street without question? From the guy who added 7 trillion to the national debt.
I wished he had learned his lessons a little sooner.
Just think, if a newspaper had a section as popular as the Sports section with scores, deals, statistics, and upcoming “games” that dealt with politics. Imagine being able to open your paper and actually read a summary of bills and votes, issues and debates in near real-time. Would people become more engaged in their political life? If the Sports section were to be eliminated from a newspaper, imagine the uproar. Civics and engagement of people in the workings of their government gets a meh consistently. Where did the road diverge???
==Reason matters, facts matter; issues are complicated. When folks just make stuff up, they can’t go unchallenged.==
All very true. But also true: Logic is sometimes trumped by emotional arguments, facts are often slippery, simplicity is usually much easier to grasp than complexity, and making stuff up can be very effective in swaying opinions, especially if repeated often.
If your opponent deploys the latter truths, he may be more likely to succeed, despite your challenges. What then?
===(R)eason matters, facts matter; issues are complicated. When folks just make stuff up, they can’t go unchallenged.===
“Dad, I want to buy a car.”
My late father’s favorite response to the above: “You think money grows on trees?” “How much is this going to cost?” “How are you going to pay for it?”
Forced us to to come up with a plan. Now there is no plan. That includes Washington, DC and Springfield. Just spend it because we need to spend it. Because money does grow on trees!
Heard that remark as applying to blind partisanship across the board.
Doubt it applies especially to Rauner. He just applies his reason to facts, arguments, and goals with which I don’t agree. My problem with the Gov is that he was not clear about them in his sales pitch, and does not fully own their implications now.
>My late father’s favorite response to the above: “You think money grows on trees?” “How much is this going to cost?” “How are you going to pay for it?”
My dad said he wouldn’t even talk to me about how to pay for something until I agreed never to take a job represented by a union.
Louis A, A budget would be a good starting point. We are still waiting for the Gov to show us his plan that the IL Constitution requires of him.
SECTION 2. STATE FINANCE
(a) The Governor shall prepare and submit to the General Assembly, at a time prescribed by law, a State budget for the ensuing fiscal year. The budget shall set forth the estimated
balance of funds available for appropriation at the beginning of the fiscal year, the estimated receipts, and a plan for expenditures and obligations during the fiscal year of every
department, authority, public corporation and quasi-public corporation of the State, every State college and university, and every other public agency created by the State, but not
of units of local government or school districts. The budget shall also set forth the indebtedness and contingent liabilities of the State and such other information as may be required by law. Proposed expenditures shall not exceed funds
estimated to be available for the fiscal year as shown in the budget.
POTUS- “(R)eason matters, facts matter; issues are complicated.”
How do we all, make it easier for the public to take that leap and become more involved in learning about THEIR government? The SJR Tweet is an example, but what was the bill number, how where the votes cast, what are the implications of the bill, and what is it’s future? I realize a Tweet is limited and cannot answer all those questions, but think for a moment- if we want an educated populas, we need to work harder to make it EASIER to get unbiased facts and balanced discussions so people can be INFORMED and, hopefully, become more ENGAGED in THEIR governance.
End Idealistic rant:)
SJR Tweet- “Lawmakers making second attempt to send AFSCME talks to arbitrator.”
You do a good job Mr. Miller. Keep on challenging the complicated stuff that has, many times, been proven to be fabricated.
The Trib Board is only one of several sources of manipulated information. Obama also talked about the profit-motive in news. For some “Faux News” sources, the more sensationally the facts can be manipulated, the better the bottom-line.
- South Central - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:48 am:
Louis–actually, a budget IS a plan. Perhaps you should call the governor and repeat what you just told us.
“Jeez from the guy . . .who added 7 trillion to the national debt.”
Find me an economist who thinks the debt is a problem right now. Let’s start with reason, shall we? With interests rates this low, labor rates this low, and an infrastructure this crumbling, explain why incurring debt now is a problem. Please. And don’t start with the nonsense about paying back the debt. Sovereign states have to service their debt and NOT DEFAULT. But they don’t have to pay them back. And by the way, they are in debt largely to their own citizens. So how about we start with the silly myth of the “deficit hawk.”
Just read the suggested Sun-Times editorial. A great piece! I still can’t believe I actually read an editorial that doesn’t totally agree with Rauner, Sandack, Morrison, and other GOPers. Such a refreshing read. A MUST read!
As a Rauner supporter I would like to sincerely
apologize. This guy was born on 3rd base and thinks he hit a triple. The good news is spring training starts soon. Go white Sox
Yes it is. Takes the Legislature AND the Governor to cooperate with each other to get it done. Rauner proposed a budget, the legislature padded it by an additional $2 billion in red ink, and then Rauner vetoed it. The legislature then failed to override the veto.
Since then? Right now all we have is the old “money grows on trees” stuff.
Here is the footnote on Monday’s full-length commentary in the Chicago Tribune editorial pages:
“Diana Sroka Rickert is a writer with the Illinois Policy Institute. The opinions in this essay are her own.”
Um, no. Diana Rickert is the Vice President of Communications for the Illinois Policy Institute and its spokesperson, not “a writer”. Her opinions in the essay are indistinguishable from the Illinois Policy Institute’s.
It is a MONTHLY column for the spokesperson for a conglomerate that lobbies the General Assembly. Unprecedented for the Chicago Tribune. And shameful.
When is Emily Miller getting her monthly column, I wonder?
===Rauner proposed a budget, the legislature padded it by an additional $2 billion in red ink, and then Rauner vetoed it.===
Oh - Louis G. Atsaves -
1) Rauner’s budget outline, not a budget was nearly $3 Billion in the “red”. Rauner’s outline needed revenue.
2) Democrats crafted a budget, allowing Rauner to cut whatever, sign whatever, and Rauner signed a part of your self described “red ink” to open schools.
3) Again, if Rauner is inept at actually crafting a budget, outlining his priorities, his goals, his wants, then I agree with you, Rauner is inept.
How do we go around the Governor, inept and refusing to have a budget?
Louis- I should have clarified- after the failed attempt at the veto override… who’s turn was it then? Or, was it OK for Rauner to sit and do nothing but complain?
OW, I guess one way to go around an inept Governor would be for the minority leaders to approach the majority leaders and say that it’s time to move forward.
From illini97 “guess one way to go around an inept Governor would be for the minority leaders to approach the majority leaders and say that it’s time to move forward.
I’m waiting for that to happen.”
Maybe if most of Rauner’s candidates (including the one on the D side) get beat in the Primary. Otherwise, when Rauner (and his money) leaves office, however that happens…
When folks just make stuff up they can’t go unchallenged. If you like your insurance, you can keep your insurance. If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor.
–Rauner proposed a budget, the legislature padded it by an additional $2 billion in red ink, and then Rauner vetoed it..
Rauner’s proposed budget was in the red by $3.1 billion.
The GA passed a budget that was $4 billion in the red, while making approps. for social services, higher ed, and group health insurance.
It seems there would have been the makings for a budget compromise between those two positions, if that was the goal.
Instead, vetoes of all GRF spending except K-12, $6.2 billion more to the pile of bills, and zero funding for social services, higher ed and group health insurance.
It’s not reasonable to claim that the governor vetoed the bills passed by the GA because of the $4 billion deficit.
He vetoed them because the deficit was not large enough for the governor’s goals of “squeezing the beast” and torching social services and higher ed.
No matter how you spin, $6.2 billion will always be larger than $4 billion.
- “When folks just make stuff up, they can’t go unchallenged”
I think that this by far is the biggest problem that we have today. This misinformation gets repeated until it becomes the truth. Prove it wrong and the lie continues.
These are Zombie lies, you just can’t kill them.
It’s time for the media to verify all information that they publish and vet all op-ends accordingly and bear responsibility when proven false, just as they are responsible for fraudulent advertising.
- pundent - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 10:38 am:
Sadly the Tribune editorial board is responding to the sound bite nature of today’s world. Facts have become increasingly less important. That’s why we have candidates for office promising to “make America great again” and a large number of voters are willing to say “works for me”. The Trib is playing to that room.
- My New Handle - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 10:41 am:
The prez might have been referring to Rauner as well.
- Norseman - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 10:46 am:
Words to live by.
- Oswego Willy - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 10:49 am:
===(R)eason matters, facts matter; issues are complicated. When folks just make stuff up, they can’t go unchallenged.===
For me, just me, I think the issues with the Governor and his Administration, let alone their supporters, is the premise that if they just “say it”, no would should challenge him, them, and instead of a dialog as to the facts of ANY issue (Payton Prep, Donating to Democrats, Election Nite phone call, Cullerton Support…) it is not “good enough” to say “that’s baloney” and move on, and moving on entails talking points either directly or indirectly challenging those who question the Governor, the Adminstration, Allies, or even supporters.
Have the discussions, admit mistakes, move on, be better, make a case, add pertinent facts, and win the day, even the media day with the best, strongest argument, or be critically honest about their own missteps.
I like the President’s line a lot.
Facts matter as the basis, the foundation of the argument. Let’s start there.
- Chicago Cynic - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 10:51 am:
Amen Barack. I say this all the time. Facts matter. Fortunately for the Trib edit board and Gov. Rauner, they’re not tethered to such niceties.
- Chigal - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 10:52 am:
It was the standout quote for me, as well. Given the venue, I felt he was referring to Rauner — although it applies as well to every other mealy-mouthed mediator of misinformation.
- Angry Chicagoan - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 10:54 am:
Reason matters, facts matter, issues are complicated. When folks just make stuff up, they can’t go unchallenged. And for those reasons, I have been unable to bring myself to subscribe to the Tribune.
As for Rauner, he’s DQ’d with the very first two words of that quote.
- jim - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 10:55 am:
Nothing like the blindness of the ideologically certain.
- Liberty - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:02 am:
Jeez from the guy whose speeches are filled with strawman arguments? From the guy who embraced Wall Street without question? From the guy who added 7 trillion to the national debt.
I wished he had learned his lessons a little sooner.
- Anon221 - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:08 am:
Just think, if a newspaper had a section as popular as the Sports section with scores, deals, statistics, and upcoming “games” that dealt with politics. Imagine being able to open your paper and actually read a summary of bills and votes, issues and debates in near real-time. Would people become more engaged in their political life? If the Sports section were to be eliminated from a newspaper, imagine the uproar. Civics and engagement of people in the workings of their government gets a meh consistently. Where did the road diverge???
- peanut - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:12 am:
==Reason matters, facts matter; issues are complicated. When folks just make stuff up, they can’t go unchallenged.==
All very true. But also true: Logic is sometimes trumped by emotional arguments, facts are often slippery, simplicity is usually much easier to grasp than complexity, and making stuff up can be very effective in swaying opinions, especially if repeated often.
If your opponent deploys the latter truths, he may be more likely to succeed, despite your challenges. What then?
- Lester Holt's Mustache - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:13 am:
==From the guy who added 7 trillion to the national debt.==
Yeah, Republicans didn’t help him with that AT ALL. Why couldn’t we go back to the GW Bush years, when we paid for every…… Oh, wait….
- Christopher - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:13 am:
I am not a fan of the Governor, nor do I typically agree with our local newspaper editorials. But I think that the Sun-Times today has made a very good editorial against Rauner:
http://chicago.suntimes.com/editorials-opinion/7/71/1317696/editorial-60
- Louis G. Atsaves - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:16 am:
===(R)eason matters, facts matter; issues are complicated. When folks just make stuff up, they can’t go unchallenged.===
“Dad, I want to buy a car.”
My late father’s favorite response to the above: “You think money grows on trees?” “How much is this going to cost?” “How are you going to pay for it?”
Forced us to to come up with a plan. Now there is no plan. That includes Washington, DC and Springfield. Just spend it because we need to spend it. Because money does grow on trees!
- walker - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:16 am:
Heard that remark as applying to blind partisanship across the board.
Doubt it applies especially to Rauner. He just applies his reason to facts, arguments, and goals with which I don’t agree. My problem with the Gov is that he was not clear about them in his sales pitch, and does not fully own their implications now.
- Norseman - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:18 am:
Louis, have a Snickers. You’re not yourself. That last post made no sense.
- Earnest - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:21 am:
>My late father’s favorite response to the above: “You think money grows on trees?” “How much is this going to cost?” “How are you going to pay for it?”
My dad said he wouldn’t even talk to me about how to pay for something until I agreed never to take a job represented by a union.
- pundent - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:22 am:
Louis - I think the plan is “when the auto workers union is decimated you’ll get your car”. I know, it makes no sense.
- Wensicia - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:23 am:
You can’t refute Obama’s above statement, which is probably why we didn’t see a Tribune editorial on yesterday’s speech.
- Norseman - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:25 am:
Wensicia, they won’t refute it, but they’ll ignore it. As have many of the commenters on this thread.
- Anonymous - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:32 am:
Tim Novak at Sun Times
- Anonymous - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:35 am:
==Now there is no plan.==
Louis A, A budget would be a good starting point. We are still waiting for the Gov to show us his plan that the IL Constitution requires of him.
SECTION 2. STATE FINANCE
(a) The Governor shall prepare and submit to the General Assembly, at a time prescribed by law, a State budget for the ensuing fiscal year. The budget shall set forth the estimated
balance of funds available for appropriation at the beginning of the fiscal year, the estimated receipts, and a plan for expenditures and obligations during the fiscal year of every
department, authority, public corporation and quasi-public corporation of the State, every State college and university, and every other public agency created by the State, but not
of units of local government or school districts. The budget shall also set forth the indebtedness and contingent liabilities of the State and such other information as may be required by law. Proposed expenditures shall not exceed funds
estimated to be available for the fiscal year as shown in the budget.
- Anon221 - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:36 am:
POTUS- “(R)eason matters, facts matter; issues are complicated.”
How do we all, make it easier for the public to take that leap and become more involved in learning about THEIR government? The SJR Tweet is an example, but what was the bill number, how where the votes cast, what are the implications of the bill, and what is it’s future? I realize a Tweet is limited and cannot answer all those questions, but think for a moment- if we want an educated populas, we need to work harder to make it EASIER to get unbiased facts and balanced discussions so people can be INFORMED and, hopefully, become more ENGAGED in THEIR governance.
End Idealistic rant:)
SJR Tweet- “Lawmakers making second attempt to send AFSCME talks to arbitrator.”
- cdog - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:41 am:
It is good to feel affirmed once in awhile.
You do a good job Mr. Miller. Keep on challenging the complicated stuff that has, many times, been proven to be fabricated.
The Trib Board is only one of several sources of manipulated information. Obama also talked about the profit-motive in news. For some “Faux News” sources, the more sensationally the facts can be manipulated, the better the bottom-line.
- South Central - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:48 am:
Louis–actually, a budget IS a plan. Perhaps you should call the governor and repeat what you just told us.
- Anonymous - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:52 am:
- Liberty - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 11:02 am:
“Jeez from the guy . . .who added 7 trillion to the national debt.”
Find me an economist who thinks the debt is a problem right now. Let’s start with reason, shall we? With interests rates this low, labor rates this low, and an infrastructure this crumbling, explain why incurring debt now is a problem. Please. And don’t start with the nonsense about paying back the debt. Sovereign states have to service their debt and NOT DEFAULT. But they don’t have to pay them back. And by the way, they are in debt largely to their own citizens. So how about we start with the silly myth of the “deficit hawk.”
- Big Joe - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 12:09 pm:
Just read the suggested Sun-Times editorial. A great piece! I still can’t believe I actually read an editorial that doesn’t totally agree with Rauner, Sandack, Morrison, and other GOPers. Such a refreshing read. A MUST read!
- mokenavince - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 12:18 pm:
As a Rauner supporter I would like to sincerely
apologize. This guy was born on 3rd base and thinks he hit a triple. The good news is spring training starts soon. Go white Sox
- Louis G. Atsaves - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 12:28 pm:
===Louis–actually, a budget IS a plan.===
Yes it is. Takes the Legislature AND the Governor to cooperate with each other to get it done. Rauner proposed a budget, the legislature padded it by an additional $2 billion in red ink, and then Rauner vetoed it. The legislature then failed to override the veto.
Since then? Right now all we have is the old “money grows on trees” stuff.
- Juvenal - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 12:37 pm:
Here is the footnote on Monday’s full-length commentary in the Chicago Tribune editorial pages:
“Diana Sroka Rickert is a writer with the Illinois Policy Institute. The opinions in this essay are her own.”
Um, no. Diana Rickert is the Vice President of Communications for the Illinois Policy Institute and its spokesperson, not “a writer”. Her opinions in the essay are indistinguishable from the Illinois Policy Institute’s.
It is a MONTHLY column for the spokesperson for a conglomerate that lobbies the General Assembly. Unprecedented for the Chicago Tribune. And shameful.
When is Emily Miller getting her monthly column, I wonder?
- Anon221 - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 12:45 pm:
Louis- after the veto, who’s turn was it then? I’m not being snarky, I really, really want to know!
- Oswego Willy - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 12:47 pm:
===Rauner proposed a budget, the legislature padded it by an additional $2 billion in red ink, and then Rauner vetoed it.===
Oh - Louis G. Atsaves -
1) Rauner’s budget outline, not a budget was nearly $3 Billion in the “red”. Rauner’s outline needed revenue.
2) Democrats crafted a budget, allowing Rauner to cut whatever, sign whatever, and Rauner signed a part of your self described “red ink” to open schools.
3) Again, if Rauner is inept at actually crafting a budget, outlining his priorities, his goals, his wants, then I agree with you, Rauner is inept.
How do we go around the Governor, inept and refusing to have a budget?
We can work on this together.
- Anon221 - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 12:52 pm:
Louis- I should have clarified- after the failed attempt at the veto override… who’s turn was it then? Or, was it OK for Rauner to sit and do nothing but complain?
- illini97 - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 12:56 pm:
OW, I guess one way to go around an inept Governor would be for the minority leaders to approach the majority leaders and say that it’s time to move forward.
I’m waiting for that to happen.
/s
- downstate commissioner - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 1:13 pm:
From illini97 “guess one way to go around an inept Governor would be for the minority leaders to approach the majority leaders and say that it’s time to move forward.
I’m waiting for that to happen.”
Maybe if most of Rauner’s candidates (including the one on the D side) get beat in the Primary. Otherwise, when Rauner (and his money) leaves office, however that happens…
- Oswego Willy - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 1:19 pm:
- illini97 -
March 15 will be huge to that, “Yuge”
Dunkin and McCann… those two, one more Raunerite loss thrown in… never know.
If Dunkin wins, McCann loses, all Raunerites are safe come March, big, big loss for Labor.
Big.
- weltschmerz - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 1:21 pm:
Wow, a lot of short term memory loss here. “if you like your doctor, you can keep him.” One of many “facts” from our POTUS.
- Anonymous - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 2:16 pm:
When folks just make stuff up they can’t go unchallenged. If you like your insurance, you can keep your insurance. If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 2:18 pm:
Anonymous, first, please pick a nickname. Second, he was challenged regarding that broken promise, about a kabillion times.
- wordslinger - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 2:56 pm:
–Rauner proposed a budget, the legislature padded it by an additional $2 billion in red ink, and then Rauner vetoed it..
Rauner’s proposed budget was in the red by $3.1 billion.
The GA passed a budget that was $4 billion in the red, while making approps. for social services, higher ed, and group health insurance.
It seems there would have been the makings for a budget compromise between those two positions, if that was the goal.
Instead, vetoes of all GRF spending except K-12, $6.2 billion more to the pile of bills, and zero funding for social services, higher ed and group health insurance.
It’s not reasonable to claim that the governor vetoed the bills passed by the GA because of the $4 billion deficit.
He vetoed them because the deficit was not large enough for the governor’s goals of “squeezing the beast” and torching social services and higher ed.
No matter how you spin, $6.2 billion will always be larger than $4 billion.
- Chicago 20 - Thursday, Feb 11, 16 @ 7:53 pm:
- “When folks just make stuff up, they can’t go unchallenged”
I think that this by far is the biggest problem that we have today. This misinformation gets repeated until it becomes the truth. Prove it wrong and the lie continues.
These are Zombie lies, you just can’t kill them.
It’s time for the media to verify all information that they publish and vet all op-ends accordingly and bear responsibility when proven false, just as they are responsible for fraudulent advertising.