67 Comments - 47th Ward - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:06 pm: IPI wants to treat all employees like high school minimum wage earners. That’s their pro-business Utopia. Your kid is sick? No pay for you. Your car broke down? No pay for you. Train was delayed? No pay for you. - Demoralized - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:13 pm: The Illinois Policy Institute has always been at the front of the line in disparaging state employees. They want to cut state employee pay, healthcare benefits, pensions and whatever else they can think of that would negatively affect an employee. They hate state employees. It’s not a surprise they they come out with “stories” like this. - Downstate Illinois - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:15 pm: Yes it’s IPI’s fault that AFSCME lies. - @MisterJayEm - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:16 pm: In his defense, writing for IPI appears to be the only job that the author has held since leaving college, so the article may have written from genuine ignorance rather than malice. – MrJM - Federalist - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:17 pm: It’s too much to expect the Illinois Policy Institute to be honest. Its real aim is not informed debate but stirring animosity against government, public services and the workers who provide them. That pretty much sums it up! - Anonymous - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:19 pm: Seems the union person quoted didn’t want to give the whole picture. - Anonymous - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:21 pm: Are you sure IPI doesn’t mean Illinois Propaganda Institute? Just sayin. - Linus - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:23 pm: == It’s too much to expect the Illinois Policy Institute to be honest. == I found that to be the most relevant and important information presented here. Even if it is simply reiteration of what we’ve already come to understand. - Anonymous - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:24 pm: IPI is selective as usual. In my opinion one of the problems with Illinois State government is that most employees are covered by a contract. In many cases they are supervised by non union managers who have little incentive to follow the disciplinary procedures in the contract. Such managers don’t get raises or other rewards for going through the lengthy and acrimonious process to discipline underperforming employees. The union fights such disciplinary attempts. Other employees don’t like it. So while, in theory and according to the contract, management can take action for tardiness and similar problems, in reality these problems can continue. - Trolling Troll - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:29 pm: @Anon 1:24 So you’re saying that union employees are lazy, but non-Union employees are lazier? - Ahoy! - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:31 pm: IPI got this fact wrong (which is perpetual by the IPI, one of the reason’t they are not taken seriously is because they are so bad at fact checking) but their concept has merit. It is extremely hard to be fired as a state worker, and notice AFSME did not attempt to dispel that. In the policy of correcting tardiness there should a process for termination as well. Maybe AFSME just left that out, I could be wrong, but State workers are a protected class. Obviously most State workers are good employees and show up and take pride in their work and their are always bad apples in everything, especially a large organization. On a side note, maybe the IPI should have a policy for fact checking publications and be more concerned with fixing their own management issues right now until their next publication. - State Worker - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:32 pm: It’s amazing how lies/misstatements get substituted for the truth. - Honeybear - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:34 pm: Sure there’s no general policy but there are a ton of supplementals to the contract. DHS for instance has prescribed disciplines for amt of times tardy, etc. It’s spelled out. This isn’t a gotcha here. I’ve had to defend folks who were chronically tardy and really there is not much for them. It’s spelled out. The best I could do was appeal to the mercy of the manager and work out an action plan to be followed by the employee. Look I hate when people are late because it increases everybody else’s work load. Really IPI, do we have to do this? - fly on the wall - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:34 pm: The article is closer to reality than what AFSCME says. An employee can be late several times, then be on good behavior for a 2 month period, then the record is considered clean and they can start the tardiness again. Most will arrive before it gets to docking pay say 30 minutes late instead of an hour. This is the minority of employees that abuse this, but AFSCME is to blame because they defend the worse abusers and will file grievances against management on these matters. I had an employee take 1 1/2 break and was grieved by AFSCME because they stated it was not a regular occurence. - Judgement Day - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:36 pm: Let’s see…. When I was taught to read and interpret legal descriptions, I was always taught to read them backwards (end to front) to get a true picture of the property. So that’s how I tend to look at some of these things. Reading backwards, there’s an interesting 3 step process at play here: Step 1: “The threshold between late arrival and unauthorized absence is one hour after the starting time.” (Last line) Step 2: “There shall be no general policy of docking for late arrival.” (first line). Does that mean there can be no formalized policy covering late arrivals? Step 03: “Employees who are repeatedly late may be docked until the problem has been corrected over a reasonable period” Ok, what are the ‘threshold’ levels for “repeatedly late” and “corrected” and “reasonable period”. It sounds like none of those are defined in the current Agreement, and under the provisions established under Step 02, it’s questionable if you could establish a general policy defining those terms. Looks to me like ASFCME is playing a little too cute by half on this one. IPI just might have a point. - Illannoyed - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:39 pm: It’s sort of humorous that IPI is criticized for not telling the full story, but those leveling the criticism aren’t equally criticizing the AFSCME spokesperson for selectively editing the contract clause. Just goes to show that people see what they want to see. And this applies to BOTH sides of the debate. - In 630 - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:40 pm: You’d think that normally IPI would want managers to have more discretion dealing with employees. Guess discretion is bad when it allows a manager to not have a draconian approach. - steward - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:40 pm: There are unauthorized absences and tardies. Tardy is 1-60 minutes and is coded in the timekeeping system so there is a record but there is no docking or discipline at first. But every agency has a policy where they start counseling and/or docking for tardies. Unauthorized abscence is for over 60 minutes and policy is laid out in the affirmative attendance MOU which has a clear discipline track for occurrences. - Joe M - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:42 pm: I think IPI’s attitude is a carryover from the days of one-room schools where a number of the general public liked to have teachers under their thumb. Control what they wore, whether or not they dated, what they did in general - because they as taxpayers paid the teachers’ salaries - and thus they felt like they were bosses over the teachers. Many still have that kind of attitude about public employees. That kind of thinking is not being a very good taxpayer/boss. - Oswego Willy - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:43 pm: I guess one could ask “The 7″ (or are there 6 now??) how they feel about the IPI assertion? I mean, they can’t vote for state employees, but they can sign a phony letter. At least they can pretend to support state employees… … unless Rauner won’t let them speak against the IPI… “Vote Accordingly”, state employees. Do not… be fooled. - Saluki - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 1:58 pm: The Illinois Policy Institute has legitimate arguments that they could make. However they harpoon their own positions by stretching the truth. - GOP Extremist - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:09 pm: More lies from the Bruce’s anti-Union special interest group. - @MisterJayEm - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:14 pm: You deliberately read the terms of the contract out of order, and you think ASFCME is playing a little too cute by half? – MrJM - steward - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:15 pm: ” This is the minority of employees that abuse this, but AFSCME is to blame because they defend the worse abusers and will file grievances against management on these matters. I had an employee take 1 1/2 break and was grieved by AFSCME because they stated it was not a regular occurence.” I have to defend their rights. There are tardy policies but they must be applied fairly and evenly. Otherwise you’d have management giving a pass to their pets and only coming down on the workers they don’t like. I have seen the state successfully terminate employees using the affirmative attendance MOU. But management has to do it right. As for your grievance story what are the other facts? Did the worker have a record? You also fail to state the result of the grievance. If it got pulled at 3rd then you really don’t have much of a beef. - DuPage - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:19 pm: I don’t think any examples like “George” really exist. - ~pfft - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:21 pm: Much of the time agencies have the discretion to have tighter rules. AFAIK our agency rule (even if unspoken) has been 15 minutes before trouble starts. If more than a half hour late, we’d use bene time to cover it - most of my co-corker do have standards. - Wow - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:22 pm: Why should Uncle Brucie’s mushrooms pay attention to reading the contract ?? - Nick Name - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:23 pm: “It is extremely hard to be fired as a state worker, and notice AFSME did not attempt to dispel that.” It is extremely hard to be fired in the private sector too. In both cases, you need a paper trail, a record of counseling, etc. Your post is just a red herring. - Oswego Willy - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:23 pm: ===Illinois Policy Institute has legitimate arguments that they could make. However they harpoon their own positions by stretching the truth.=== - Saluki - probably has this framed best… - Iamthepita - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:24 pm: Don’t forget to look up “proof status” in the CBA… - Arthur Andersen - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:24 pm: The IPI’s annual Christmas (Holiday? Festivus?) Party must be a total downer. One thing that has clearly been freed and liberated from these defenders of freedom and liberty is any empathy, let alone a sense of humor. Here they have taken what is on its face an unreasonable stance by AFSCME “well, being late to work may be wrong but it’s in the contract” and spun their way into placing a lotta folks in the Union’s corner. Heckuva job, Tillie. - Iamthepita - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:26 pm: Also, procedural work rule… - Not quite a majority - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:28 pm: I’ve been a manager in two different state agencies, overseeing union employees in each job I had. What I found was that the ‘blame it on the contract’ trope was almost always a lie. What actually happened was very few managers or their higher ups, took the time to read the contracts (they’re online and not hard to find) and few if any bothered to document incidents for discipline or follow the required steps. It ain’t rocket science and if you’re in a managerial position it should be a requirement of your job. Just telling someone who is habitually late ‘don’t do it again’ is not sufficient. If you document and work within the guidelines the unions I worked with respected that. This might not be the universal case, but I’m more willing to believe it is than this IPI box of rocks. - steward - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:37 pm: “In the policy of correcting tardiness there should a process for termination as well.” This has become a red herring. Failure to follow any rule or regulation can lead to discipline. Never has it been said by anyone in the union that no one can ever be fired ever for tardy. But discipline should be fair, reasonable, corrective, and progressive. Shouldn’t be fired for 1 occurrence of 1 minute late. But pretty much no one says that someone should totally get away with being an hour late every day of the year. There is a middle ground. - J Mc - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:45 pm: I had two employees who I put on flex time because the couldn’t be on time for any reason but they were without a doubt the best employees anybody count have. One would come in about 10st and work till 10 or 11 PM to get things done. He was sooo respected by the Agency employees (including management). I would get in trouble with “management” allowing him to keep those hours. I had another employees who did the same and got the job done above what any subs could do. They where great employees and everybody knew it which made me look great to the Agency employees. Following the rules does not always work. - Nick Name - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:48 pm: This is the IPI straining out a gnat to swallow a camel: focusing on the non-issue of tardiness discipline, but (so far) being silent on how Rauner expects to save $170 million on state group health insurance with no new AFSCME contract in place. Dear IPI, just how *does* your boss intend to cut $170 million from the cost of state group health insurance, without a new contract? Hm? - New Slang - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:53 pm: ??? - Anonymous - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:55 pm: IPI picked one passage of the contract to make their point. I’m not sure if it is intentional dishonesty or laziness but the contract is 274 pages long and attendance is discussed in several places as this agreement covers many job titles and departments. In Article XII covering work hours for each RC agency classification series it states: “Tardiness and Absenteeism: The agency’s current practices and policies regarding tardiness and absenteeism shall continue.” Each agency has departmental rules and these rules have a section covering tardiness as well as what is written out in the contract. DOC has a progressive discipline plan for tardiness as well as absenteeism. As with anything else involving Illinois government functions, it’s complicated. - ABC123 - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:55 pm: I will bring up an important point others have mentioned. Each agency has individual personnel rules employees must follow. The union contract can be somewhat vague, but the personnel code/rules within each agency is much more specific on topics like tardiness. - Anonymous - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 2:57 pm: If this wasn’t just about busting AFSCME’s chops I’d suggest they look at a non-Union agency like IBHE. Look at the workstation login times versus what some employees claim on their weekly ethics timesheets. - Bemused - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 3:02 pm: I have said before that I believe IPI’s only mission is to move the needle to the right. They should change their name to “Slanted Issues R Us”. - Once late - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 3:03 pm: I was 15 minutes late one morning due a traffic accident on West Jefferson. I had to use vacation/personal time to make it up. - On My Own - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 3:11 pm: I would love to know where IPI gets their information. Very recently and in my immediate work location, 2 people have been disciplined for tardiness, one of whom was terminated. - Shemp - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 3:13 pm: I don’t think IPI was that out of whack in their assessment when one reads the full text. There is a lot of latitude there, and plenty of room for an arbitrator to find in favor of the employee for showing up 50 minutes late. Everyone wants to get rid of the bad employees, police included these days, which is kind of important if you follow the news, but it is hard. - AnonymousOne - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 3:18 pm: I’m unclear on this concept of why public employees are “timeclock” employees. Having worked in both sectors my private job never had lookouts waiting to write me up if 5 minutes or even half hour late (as did my public job). Further, the hour lunch in my private job sometimes stretched to more than that and as long as my work was done……………..why would there be a tattletale waiting to tell on me being late? What IS this mentality of childish picky stuff? Are public employees not considered adults? If there’s anyone out there who says “but that pay is coming out of MY taxes! I pay your paycheck!” So who pays for private paychecks? NONE of my money winds up in those pockets? Do they have their own private mints so that MY money isn’t part of anyone’s paycheck in the private sector? And if their company has any government contracts or gets any tax breaks, then MY money is in YOUR pocket. How silly, dumb and immature. - DuPage - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 3:49 pm: Someone I know told me the policy where they work, they just make up the shortage at the end of the day. If they are 1-60 min late, they want you to work the same number of minutes later then usual. They do want a quick call if you are going to be more then a half hour late. They also let you deduct it from personal or vacation time if you don’t want to stay later. - Chicago 20 - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 3:54 pm: You’ve got to love the irony. IPI writes a biased, mostly false story two years ago and then pays another writer to rehash the same biased, mostly false information as something contemporary as to illustrate their biased opinions in a futile attempt to manipulate public opinion. But it doesn’t work, both efforts are sophomoric and unbelievable. Now let’s talk about wasteful spending. The IPI paid two writers and countless others to produce this dribble that no one believes while diminishing whatever credibility that the IPI had remaining to nothing. When will Bruce Rauner and the Koch brothers stop funding the IPI, it’s clearly a waste of their money. - Mama - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 4:11 pm: Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t IPI work for Rauner? - Fairness and Fairness Only - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 4:12 pm: George must work at the agency that doesn’t have computers. - Mama - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 4:16 pm: Where I worked state employee was docked for being 15 minutes late from the very first time. - Cubs in '16 - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 4:29 pm: ===I was 15 minutes late one morning due a traffic accident on West Jefferson. I had to use vacation/personal time to make it up.=== Maybe that’s what you were told but per the AFSCME contract you would NOT have had to use benefit time for a one-time 15 min. occurrence. Some like to hammer state workers on trivial stuff like this while completely ignoring all the times they show up early, stay late, skip breaks, take abbreviated lunches, etc. It all comes out in the wash. I’d also like to point out a prompt employee doesn’t necessarily equal a productive one. I’ve had coworkers who were never late but didn’t do squat all day. - Juvenal - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 4:43 pm: === It is extremely hard to be fired as a state worker === We have due process in place for a very good reason for public employees. I think you will find its much harder, in practice, to fire an executive at any corporation than it is to fire a public employee. - Robert the Bruce - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 4:57 pm: It’s a really strange example by IPI. Since being late is measurable, tangible, “employee was late X minutes X amount of times” is sometimes a way to fire a bad employee who is messing up in less measurable areas. - Grandson of Man - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 4:58 pm: The IPI has no room to talk (see Rauner’s job performance). - Winnin' - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 5:00 pm: But…Madigan. - Winnin' - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 5:03 pm: -Mama: “Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t IPI work for Rauner?” Nailed it. - Anonymous - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 5:16 pm: I had an employee who was perpetually late. I used progressive discipline as allowed in the contract (but I did check with labor relations) and by the time we got to suspension, the employee decided to retire. - Crispy Critter - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 5:21 pm: Problem is folks, many people in the private sector read this stuff and believe it. I worked in the private sector 10 years before coming to work for the State of Illinois, and there are a few people in private and the public sector that abuse the rules. Most of us state workers do try to do the best job we can, but many times we are tied up in the dang red tape. If they get rid of a lot of the red tape, state government would be a lot more efficient. - State Worker THX 1138 - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 5:33 pm: 1st off, my non-Union friend has disciplined AFSCME members for constant tardiness, including termination, so it can be done. It is a pain to get rid of bad apples when they are protected, but it is not impossible. 2nd, I make it a point to be on time. No need to demonize state workers. Most of them are very productive. Yeah, there are some bad ones, but it is no different in the private sector, especially when one has no work ethic and is related to someone like the owner or owner’s wife. - Stumpy's bunker - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 5:34 pm: I’ve worked many years for the State, for a few departments. I’ve never seen this behavior displayed by an employee. If they tried it, I can tell you that peer pressure would put a stop to it. - Anonymous - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 6:26 pm: Several people have wondered, why IPI bothers to play this game. One of the reasons IPI publishes a lot of this junk is so it will stick to a Wikipedia search. The way Wikipedia works is by connecting to citations in recognized publications, so, you can print any bald lies you want, then quote that in another publication, then it’s suddenly a source Wikipedia can use. IPI has as a goal a long-term campaign of disinformation and slanting opinion, by all means, legitimate and not so much, to serve the interest of it’s corporatist masters. - James Knell - Monday, Jul 11, 16 @ 7:00 pm: IPI = Infantile Playpen Issues? - Grandson of Man - Tuesday, Jul 12, 16 @ 8:24 am: “Employees who are repeatedly late may be docked until the problem has been corrected over a reasonable period.” This exposes the IPI’s lie and the tale of “George” the tardy state employee who faces no consequences. In the real world, it’s BS. The contract is great for good employees. That’s why there’s job security–as there should be for a state to be highly rated. But who is trying to rip that security to shreds? Certain super-rich and their media mouthpieces. - Hottot - Tuesday, Jul 12, 16 @ 5:24 pm: In Corrections if you’re 8 minutes late for roll call, you’re docked your roll call pay. If you’re late when roll call begins, you may have to sign a form indicating your lateness. The IPI doesn’t believe in facts unless they make them. - Fly On the Wall - Tuesday, Jul 12, 16 @ 6:05 pm: Steward - It did get thrown out and the discipline was left in place, but it is the mear fact that how much time was wasted on pointless grievances. the facts on this case it was all on video when the employee arrived and left the work space. So I will never support the wasted time that ASFCME supports on a regular basis for employees abusing the system. In any other job this employee would of been fired and they had numerous other attendance violations. But they run to the union steward non-stop and this is why the union is a complete joke. - Fly On the Wall - Tuesday, Jul 12, 16 @ 6:13 pm: Juvenal, You have no clue. Almost impossible to fire a state employee. I have seen Executives fired on the spot for behaviors the Union will defend. - fsdeet - Tuesday, Jul 26, 16 @ 5:13 pm: Hi http://www.eanaconda.gdn/sitemap.html konu , food many quite bit. 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