Capitol Fax.com - Your Illinois News Radar » Rose, Brady have a new higher education plan
SUBSCRIBE to Capitol Fax      Advertise Here      Mobile Version     Exclusive Subscriber Content     Updated Posts    Contact
CapitolFax.com
To subscribe to Capitol Fax, click here.
Rose, Brady have a new higher education plan

Tuesday, Sep 26, 2017

* Sen. Chapin Rose (R-Mahomet) and Rep. Dan Brady (R-Normal) are filing a bill called the Higher Education Strategic Centers of Excellence Plan,to overhaul the higher education system. Dot points

• Creates a uniform admission application to be accepted at all public universities in Illinois.

• Any high school student with a grade of B or better average will qualify for automatic admission to an academically appropriate public university if they maintain their B average through graduation. This will extend an opportunity to all students in Illinois; while respecting individual institutions rights to admit students that are the best fit for their existing programs.

• Any student who is not offered admission to a public university must automatically be referred to the community college district where they live and provided with enrollment information.

• If a public institution of higher education accepts a student, they will receive an acceptance letter from that institution setting forth any grants or scholarship offers extended by the institution at that time.

Seems a bit small ball, but what are your thoughts?

- Posted by Rich Miller        

56 Comments
  1. - G'Kar - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:07 am:

    Meh, small ball is right. This idea of one size fits all, except when it doesn’t, reminds me of the Illinois Articulation Initiative, which gave work to lots of bureaucrats, but has not worked very well at all in practice. It too was aimed at streamlining transfer until every four year deviated from it with its own unique requirements.


  2. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:10 am:

    When you have a governor that flat out refuses to fund higher education, what are we really talking about?

    Did they vote both vote to override the funding for higher education this last budget?


  3. - Michelle Flaherty - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:13 am:

    I guess I don’t get the point.
    Are they calling for closing all admissions offices at public universities and centralizing it under one roof?

    Are they trying to save money or create new forms?

    Focus, Chapin. Focus.

    Also, I don’t think getting into Illinois schools is the problem. Paying for Illinois schools is the problem. And neither Brady nor Rose have done anything to offer assistance there.


  4. - A Young Person - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:17 am:

    As someone who remembers filling out many college applications not too long ago, the consolidated application sounds good. Wisconsin has a more integrated system like this, and Texas has a system where if you’re in the top 10 percent of your class you automatically get in to UT. I’m with OW, the financial security of my school would scare me if I was a prospective student.


  5. - Someone you should know - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:18 am:

    One of their Points

    . The University of Illinois recently added an $82.6 million brand new STEM (Science Tech, Engineering and Math) building for its’ Springfield campus. $82.6 million for a new STEM program when the ‘crown jewel’ of the state’s higher education system, the U of I’s engineering and science programs in Champaign-Urbana. We need to start by protecting what we already have – not reinventing the wheel. Not too mention that several other universities in Illinois with higher ranked STEM programs than UIS’ have been awaiting new science buildings themselves.

    They don’t seem to realize that Springfield serves a Vastly different population than UIUC

    But with Chapin being a UIUC guy, I guess all the world revolves around Green Street.


  6. - morningstar - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:21 am:

    Pie in the sky. After crippling funding cuts, this plan seeks to mandate admissions policies, perform a comparative evaluation of academic excellence, and find “efficiencies.” Meanwhile, entire programs have been eliminated at institutions whose reserves did not outlast the State’s mismanagement of the budget process, well-qualified faculty have departed, building programs have ceased, and deferred maintenance — deferred in some cases now for DECADES — continues. The plan did not mention any additional resources to help repair the damage done by the State. Just some more mandates and assessments. You cannot make a hog fatter by weighing it more often.


  7. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:22 am:

    ===The University of Illinois recently added an $82.6 million brand new STEM (Science Tech, Engineering and Math) building for its’ Springfield campus. $82.6 million for a new STEM program when the ‘crown jewel’ of the state’s higher education system, the U of I’s engineering and science programs in Champaign-Urbana. We need to start by protecting what we already have – not reinventing the wheel. Not too mention that several other universities in Illinois with higher ranked STEM programs than UIS’ have been awaiting new science buildings themselves===

    Did Rauner veto that?

    Did Rose or Brady vote for that, then just voted “Red” on the budgeting mechanism to pay for it?

    After these 3 fiscal years, I wouldn’t call Raunerites members “concerned” about higher education.

    When you refuse to fund something in government, you want it to go away.


  8. - Undiscovered country - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:22 am:

    So what are the automatic admission policies for community college graduates? Or between universities? A good friend wanted to be an engineer, but didn’t have the grades out of high school to get accepted in the College of Engineering at U of I. He was admitted to College of Ag, worked hard, and transferred into Engineering his junior year. Now he’s a fine engineer (20+ years now). How would this affect someone like him? I get the concerns for specialization, but picking a university is about more than just the academics. An outstanding student might feel overwhelmed at the monolith U of I, but feel right at home at SIU-E. This feels very much like the regimented British educational system. Frankly I’m surprised that that someone as libertarian as Rose likes this nanny state approach to higher education. And which schools (if any) will still provide a liberal arts education?


  9. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:26 am:

    This can’t hurt enrollment any, so it’s worth a try to see if this does some good. It would be better if this was paired with some mechanism to make the transition from CCs to the Public 4-years seamless, like dual admission.

    But it’s a small step forward.


  10. - Tunes - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:27 am:

    I understand the concept, and most students with an A or B average would already get accepted to most of the IL public universities. This should already be happening to land more students. I don’t think you will see a significant boost in enrollment because of this.

    The problem is students are wanting out of IL and are looking to attend out of state schools that are offering a nice package to recruit them. The universities should focus on getting more community college transfer students. It is cost effective to the family/student to attend 2 years at a community college and then transfer to a public and still get a diploma from a 4 year university.

    The budget impasse and lack of MAP grant funding only made things worse. Nice idea and PR move, but this does move the needle.


  11. - Arsenal - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:34 am:

    I think these are all good ideas, in general. But

    1) The first prong needs some fleshing out. I worry it could end up stratifying the schools on class lines.

    2) The big problem in IL higher end is funding. This doesn’t touch that. It isn’t designed to. That’s fine, not every bill needs to solve every problem all at once, but it seems like missing the forest for the trees.


  12. - morningstar - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:34 am:

    47th Ward — at the rate this State is going, “transition from CCs to the Public 4-years” will be a very seamless process because the academic quality and resources of most regional 4-year institutions are becoming depleted enough that they will soon be indistinguishable from the two-year institutions.


  13. - illini - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:35 am:

    Don’t you just love these small government libertarian Republicans trying to set up yet another bureaucracy and enact even more rules, regulations and laws?


  14. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:39 am:

    ===The big problem in IL higher end is funding. This doesn’t touch that. It isn’t designed to. That’s fine, not every bill needs to solve every problem all at once, but it seems like missing the forest for the trees.===

    It appears its designed to, and designed to fool us in thinking that they care about higher education while Dems and brave Republicans want higher education funded.

    This isn’t an accident.

    This is really good stuff …

    ===…most students with an A or B average would already get accepted to most of the IL public universities. This should already be happening to land more students. I don’t think you will see a significant boost in enrollment because of this.

    The problem is students are wanting out of IL and are looking to attend out of state schools that are offering a nice package to recruit them.===

    Right there.

    If you are a family and schools, up to now, ease the financial burden and make it far more affordable than the Illinois schools that weren’t being funded and offer no financial incentives… it makes staying in Illinois a financial burden, and the university isn’t even being fully funded by the governor.


  15. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:40 am:

    Lol morningstar, I suppose that’s one way to get there.

    I think there is a big question of capacity at the public universities. Illinois exports a lot of students, always has too, in part because there is a big drop off in quality from U of I to the next tier, but also because there aren’t enough seats for every Illinois HS graduate with the grades to get into college.

    If CCs were academically on par with the public four-years, it would add the necessary capacity with no new capital costs and provide a lower cost way for students to complete an education: live at home for two years and attend a CC, then transfer to finish your baccalaureate degree. Cuts the cost of college in half and makes those MAP dollars go a lot farther.


  16. - Chippy - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:54 am:

    LOOPHOLE ALERT: Seems to me that a B average does not guarantee admission to any University: “while respecting individual institutions rights to admit students that are the best fit for their existing programs”


  17. - Because I said so.... - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 10:58 am:

    47, there a few universities who currently have in place the seamless transition from cc’s to 4 years.


  18. - Curl of the Burl - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:00 am:

    Illini - but this fits with what some of us (Word and me and others) have discussed in the past. (Maybe) the time is now look into creating an “umbrella” college system like Wisconsin has and consolidate a good chunk of administrative duties. That would fit in nicely with the “one application fits all” concept and save families/applicants from a) filing several applications and b) paying several application fees.


  19. - Norseman - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:00 am:

    Brady and Rose are making it look like they are actively at work, work, work on fixing higher ed.


  20. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:01 am:

    ===there a few universities===

    Yes, but why don’t all of them? Some of the private universities have better articulation agreements than some of the publics.


  21. - Rod - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:08 am:

    I think we should pause and think about this phrase: “Any high school student with a grade of B or better average will qualify for automatic admission to an academically appropriate public university if they maintain their B average through graduation.” That is a highly qualified statement.

    U of I at Champaign is not going to admit a high school student even with an A GPA over a student who has much higher ACT or SAT scores and a B average. Moreover, to put it simple, all grade point averages are not created equal.

    So a B average student from Payton prep in Chicago, or a B average student from the Illinois Math and Science Academy in Aurora more than likely would be a much stronger student than most A grade point average students from East St. Louis Sr. High School or even Rauner College Prep charter high school in Chicago. Conceptually this entitlement means little given that U of I Champaign or for that matter any other part of the University system will create their own cut scores and determine who the academically appropriate students for admission are.

    The California approach for residents is far better in my opinion. If you’re in the top 9 percent of California high school graduates and aren’t admitted to any of the UC campuses you apply to, you’ll be offered a spot at another campus if space is available. That standard of the top 9% is determined by a combination of GPA and test scores see http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/freshman/california-residents/admissions-index/index.html


  22. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:10 am:

    - Curl of the Burl -,

    This is not creating the Lincoln University system.

    If anything, this is a phony attempt to appear to address the higher education issues, but skipping that pesky funding issue and that this governor has no intention in strengthening Illinois’ universities. Heck, Rauner hasn’t fully funded the state’s universities … and how has Rose and Brady voted… when it came to university funding since Rauner became governor?

    Its a small ball feeble attempt to seem engaged.

    “Never mistake activity for achievement ” - John Wooden, the University of California… Los Angeles.


  23. - Curl of the Burl - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:14 am:

    Willy - please reread what I typed. I said it “fits with” that concept. I understand this is not a major reform. But it is certainly in line with that concept.

    Also - from a consumer standpoint the idea of paying for one application instead of several is pretty good. Applying to several colleges really ads up.


  24. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:16 am:

    UIUC has already admitted to lowering its admission standards.

    So, there’s that.

    Add that to the reduced funding and the financial strain staying in Illinois as opposed to going out of state …

    The chancellor himself said the past 25 months of a lack of funding has hurt.

    I don’t see that addressed here, as the talk of whatever this is addressing seems to ignore the funding issues the chancellor showed concern for when asked.


  25. - illini - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:21 am:

    @Curl - and I have not necessarily dismissed nor am I necessarily opposed to the concept. And Willy, I believe is also on board with this general concept.

    But with a few caveats. A full reorganization of Higher Ed would be necessary - and this can not , and will not, be accomplished with this new mandate and these new directives. Unfortunately, I do not see this happening.

    In addition, there would still have to be a stand alone system that is independent from state mandated directives. We all know what impact these last 3 years have had on many, many aspects of the U of I system and should be very cautious about further attempts to diminish its reputation and standing.


  26. - gadfly - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:22 am:

    On the issue of CC transfers to 4-year institutions: the transitions aren’t seamless in part because the students are not prepared for the rigors of university coursework by two years of CC. They come to the 4-yr inst. not knowing how to write or think critically so the 4-yrs end up having to provide all kinds of remedial training. And guess what, IF the 4-yrs do provide formal remedial training it costs money so we’re right back to problem #1. Furthermore, CCs cannot offer the same level of education as a 4-yr institution when the instructors have little more than a master’s degree and in some cases only a B.A. or B.S. Presumably they are knowledgeable of the subject matter but they are not experts in their fields- they don’t peer review the latest publications, or produce their own research/work that is then passed on to students.


  27. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:35 am:

    ===If you’re in the top 9 percent of California high school graduates and aren’t admitted to any of the UC campuses you apply to, you’ll be offered a spot at another campus if space is available.===

    California does NOT compare well with Illinois. For one thing, the UC system has 10 campuses. If you aren’t admitted to the UC system, you are referred to the Cal State system, which has 23 campuses.

    Illinois has UIUC, UIC and UIS in descending order of academic prominence. Then ISU, then the directionals and Governor’s state, then the two other publics in Chicago. That’s 12 total, with some meeting rather modest academic standards, and one (maybe two) mysteriously still holding accreditation.

    Apples and bowling balls. OTOH, up until the early 2000s, Illinois had what was then considered to be a very strong state system of higher education. Then we started bleeding them dry and the result is a system in crisis with no leadership overall to help right the ship.

    Higher education isn’t a mandatory part of state government, it’s sort of a “bonus” function. But it pays enormous dividends for students, for communities, for businesses and for Illinois culture and society. It was once seen as a critically needed asset and a competitive advantage for Illinois. We need to rethink how we manage it, and this modest proposal is a small start.

    I’ll take it, but let’s build on it.


  28. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:38 am:

    Gadfly, all of the issues you cite are easy to fix if the will is there. It only costs about $400 to flunk English 101 at a CC. It costs about 5 times that to flunk it at ISU. CCs are exactly where remedial education should be delivered, not 4 years.


  29. - G'Kar - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:41 am:

    Gadfly: “On the issue of CC transfers to 4-year institutions: the transitions aren’t seamless in part because the students are not prepared for the rigors of university coursework by two years of CC. They come to the 4-yr inst. not knowing how to write or think critically so the 4-yrs end up having to provide all kinds of remedial training.”

    Do you have any evidence to support this? I have evidence to counter this. Students at my community college who transfer to a state school for their junior year have higher GPA’s at the end of the junior year than native students.


  30. - G'Kar - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:45 am:

    47 and others: The Illinois Articulation Initiative, IAI, was set up in the late 90’s to allow seamless transfer between cc’s and 4 years. It has never worked. Most 4 years have put up roadblocks, requiring course work different then what was agreed to by IAI. At this point most 4 years have individual articulation agreements with their major feeder community colleges and IAI is simply another bureaucratic joke. Hence,as I wrote in the first comment on this thread, one size fits all except when it doesn’t.


  31. - DuPage - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:48 am:

    High school students and their parents are exploring their college choices and encounter many challenges on the road to their future education. The state of Illinois could help by putting up traffic message boards during spring and summer to help direct this traffic. This would be particularly helpful in situations where multiple interstate roads intersect with confusing exits from one road to another.
    “UW-Madison Take I-90 West Left Lane 2 Miles” or “Iowa City Traffic Right Lane Take I-80 West” are a couple of examples that come to mind.


  32. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:49 am:

    Spot on G’Kar,

    One reason the public never bought in was because there was no central system that forced them to. Another reason was they could find a grad assistant to teach Poli Sci 101 to a lecture hall of 300 students paying full price to take that course. The CC in the area would only charge a fraction of that cost for the same course. Don’t tell me about any drop in quality, the intro Poli Sci course is basically the constitution class.

    The public milked as much money out of the system as they were allowed to. The question is, who allowed them to do it and when are they going to be stopped?


  33. - City Zen - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 11:59 am:

    ==they don’t peer review the latest publications, or produce their own research/work that is then passed on to students.==

    So now you need to publish to teach Looking at Art, Keyboarding Technique, and Culinary Mathematics, all undergrad classes at my local CC? Yikes.


  34. - illini - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 12:03 pm:

    @47th - unless things have changed radically recently, I have to disagree with one of your points.

    When I was taking the mandatory, required undergraduate courses the lecture was ALWAYS done by a full professor, not a grad assistant. With the accompanying discussion groups or labs, they were conducted by grad students already well into their PhD program.

    I fear you are greatly oversimplifying to make a point.


  35. - Blue dog dem - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 12:07 pm:

    Gkar/47th. Amen. My absolute frustration with the thievery by Illinois higher ed centers around these CC roadblocks.


  36. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 12:18 pm:

    ===I fear you are greatly oversimplifying to make a point.===

    I work in higher ed, but am also a graduate of ISU, class of 88. I can assure you the instructor listed on my course enrollment was a full, tenured professor. I can also assure you that I never saw him after he welcomed the class to his first lecture. Every class after that was led by a grad assistant, presumably following his syllabus. The same was true for some other intro classes taught in large lecture halls.

    I may be simplifying, but I am most certainly not oversimplifying the problem. I’ve been present at IBHE meetings where the subject of why the four years don’t prefer to accept transfer credit has been discussed. It comes down to, in many cases, that they’d rather have the students pay twice for the same class, once at a CC and again at the four year. That’s one of the reasons the four-years tend to “look down” at the credentials of CC instructors. Today, more and more courses are being taught by adjuncts and part time instructors, but the publics still use grad assistants when they can because it lowers costs.

    Here’s another anecdote: my older brother went to the local CC for his first year in college before transferring to EIU. Eastern didn’t accept any of his transfer credits. Yes, a lot has changed since then, but the same mentality of how best to fleece the students exists today.

    My larger point, and this is way too long and off topic to get into, is that a common application will help because it represents a system wide change. More of that thinking is needed. I agree a one size fits all approach isn’t going to work. But I also think CCs are a key piece of the access/affordability puzzle and the only thing holding them back is quality of instruction. Teaching is portable which means that problem is fixable. But only if the will is there.


  37. - Anonymous - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 12:33 pm:

    I only got halfway through the comments so forgive me, but the “seemless transition from community college to 4 year” ignores the quality of the students and with it, by necessity, the quality of instruction.

    Great, force the four years to accept meaningless credits.

    How about this? Since you forced us to accept a 3 on the AP exam for full credit, how about we make every cc student take the relevant AP exam. Show me the three. I’ll tell you what would happen. 0.0% of the cc students could write a 3 on an A.P. exam if their only prep was a cc course. You can bank on that!

    This is not a rip on my collegues at the c.c.’s who work tremendously hard. It’s just a fact that when the students walk in the door in an open admissions classroom, many if not most of them will not have the background to do the work, and thus the instructor, of necessity, has to “slow” it down, to put it politely.

    Most of these proposals that come from people who have demonstrated no particular concern for higher ed in their life choices, result in the dumbing down of education. (That’s also true, by the way, of primary and secondary ed reform as well.)

    Did anyone here actually talk to an admissions person about why students are going elsewhere? Hmmm. . . . How about that? Wouldn’t want to consult someone who, you know, actually might know something.

    That said, OW has it right.


  38. - illini - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 12:37 pm:

    @47th - thank you for sharing. It is understandable, I suppose that the differences in our ages ( probably + 15 years for me ) and colleges could explain much. And I did put conditions on my statement. That being the case, I could very well understand the frustration. Perhaps there is a new norm now at some of the Regionals.

    And to your larger point - I suspect we would obviously agree far more than we might disagree. Important discussion nonetheless.


  39. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 12:51 pm:

    ===Did anyone here actually talk to an admissions person about why students are going elsewhere? Hmmm. . . . How about that? Wouldn’t want to consult someone who, you know, actually might know something.===

    Yeah, none of us know anything about this stuff, especially me. I was just spit balling and making stuff up. Sorry. I just get lonely sometimes and the nice commenters here keep me company.


  40. - blue dog dem - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 1:08 pm:

    Yes. I did with my youngest. Complete fleecing. I was so ,mad I wanted to file suit. Son lost an entire year. Thievery.


  41. - Pot calling kettle - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 1:52 pm:

    ==I only got halfway through the comments so forgive me, but the “seemless transition from community college to 4 year” ignores the quality of the students and with it, by necessity, the quality of instruction. ==

    ==This is not a rip on my collegues at the c.c.’s who work tremendously hard. It’s just a fact that when the students walk in the door in an open admissions classroom, many if not most of them will not have the background to do the work, and thus the instructor, of necessity, has to “slow” it down, to put it politely.==

    Yes, it is a “rip” on CC faculty. (Based on your post, I would not call them colleagues.) The truth is that the quality of instruction at CC’s is equal to, and sometimes better than, instruction at the 4 yrs. To be clear, I’m referring to 100 and 200 level course work. The CC faculty are focused on instruction and generally have smaller class sizes. The proof of quality is in the product. As was previously posted, CC transfers outperform native students during their junior year at university.

    What would make the proposed effort better would be: 1) guaranteed transfer for CC students meeting designated standards, and 2) guaranteed funding for students with guaranteed admission (guaranteed admission is not with much without funding).


  42. - ArchPundit - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 2:07 pm:

    ====Gadfly: “On the issue of CC transfers to 4-year institutions: the transitions aren’t seamless in part because the students are not prepared for the rigors of university coursework by two years of CC. They come to the 4-yr inst. not knowing how to write or think critically so the 4-yrs end up having to provide all kinds of remedial training.”

    At one point they universities got to charge back to the CC if this happened after taking a course. Has that changed? I quite liked Illinois’ solution to this and it seemed to be working well.


  43. - ArchPundit - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 2:08 pm:

    ===the intro Poli Sci course is basically the constitution class

    No, no it isn’t.


  44. - ArchPundit - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 2:12 pm:

    ===I work in higher ed, but am also a graduate of ISU, class of 88. I can assure you the instructor listed on my course enrollment was a full, tenured professor. I can also assure you that I never saw him after he welcomed the class to his first lecture. Every class after that was led by a grad assistant, presumably following his syllabus. The same was true for some other intro classes taught in large lecture halls.

    This has likely changed, but not necessarily in a good way. Universities have cracked down on this sort of thing, but instead now hire adjuncts to teach such classes at a very low rate. However, the college looks better because the adjunct likely has a PhD or close.


  45. - ArchPundit - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 2:16 pm:

    === is that a common application will help because it represents a system wide change.

    My first comment got caught up in moderation, but there is a common application already. Brady is creating a new one just for Illinois instead of using the Common App already available. It’s not a new idea, it’s an old idea being made worse by trying to do it differently.


  46. - ArchPundit - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 2:25 pm:

    There is a fairly significant transfer system for the Illinois system. It isn’t necessarily transparent so quality advising is needed, but most of the community colleges liberal arts (generals) credits will transfer.

    http://www.itransfer.org/students.aspx

    Where students have problems are
    1) Often they want remedial courses to count towards their degree. Those courses should not and will not count
    2) It’s hard to plan if you aren’t sure where you are going.
    3) If you don’t complete the AA or AS it’s more complicated because it becomes course by course instead of just being done with generals.
    4) Some programs are very structured in their sequencing and often this is in STEM areas. Even if their generals are done, they may have to follow the sequence in some cases and that may limit the number of in major courses per semester.


  47. - Keyser Soze - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 2:50 pm:

    Does this proposal fill an actual need?


  48. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 3:21 pm:

    ===No, no it isn’t.===

    Arch, I’d love to meet you in person to have this conversation. If Rich ever hosts a gathering of commenters, maybe we could have time for this subject. You raise excellent points, as usual. Adding anything more would risk me taking this thread further afield and down a rabbit hole, so let me just say this:

    When I attended ISU, the first PS course listed in the catalogue was PS105 - American Government. Students who took this class satisfied the requirement to pass the constitution test. Students who did not take PS105 had to sit for a proctored exam covering the state and federal constitutions. This was a requirement for a degree then. I hope it is still today.

    So in other words, given that there was no PS101-104, the intro poli sci course was American Government, and it was in fact a course that covered American government and the constitution.

    So let me conclude by simply saying, yes it was.


  49. - ArchPundit - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 3:32 pm:

    ===So let me conclude by simply saying, yes it was.

    It was, it isn’t though. The Constitution Test is only required for High School graduation though many courses cover the material and you don’t have take a test itself. The college test is no longer required and hasn’t for some years.

    I wouldn’t mind it still being required as repetition wouldn’t be a horrible thing, but it shouldn’t be in a Intro to Political Science class. The Intro course should be an introduction to the discipline and a way of thought about political institutions and behavior and from the description in the Course Catalog at ISU currently, that is more where it is targeted. Political Science isn’t civics–I’d get some push back from some friends, but I think most of us would say that we might value civics, but it’s not what we teach as a discipline.

    There certainly is crossover, but political science should be about using the scientific process to understand how institutions and political systems affect political behavior.

    Civics is closer to experiential learning or service learning and valuable, but not at the core of what Political Science is.

    I answered to shortly, but the basic point was that the courses have changed in 30 years (yeah, you can feel old with me there) and while there is value in what you are talking about, that isn’t what political science is today.


  50. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 4:36 pm:

    I don’t understand how this is an overhaul of anything. What does it do, for anyone?

    Small ball, ain’t the phrase. I think Rose and Brady are trying to look busy.


  51. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 4:47 pm:

    Curious that Ferro ran McKinney out of the Sun-Times for doing his job (well), but puts this broadside against the Rauners from a junior flack in prime troncsylvania real estate.

    Seems all the GOP poohbahs have serious beef with each other, and not just on this issue.

    It appears to have started when the Rauner/IPI summer romance blew up.

    And what about that $30M so Proft could run the GA races?


  52. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 4:48 pm:

    ===prime troncsylvania real estate===

    Hilarious.


  53. - ArchPundit - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 4:50 pm:

    Word–Pretty much

    ===• Creates a uniform admission application to be accepted at all public universities in Illinois.

    The way to do this is the Common Application that already exists. In fact, if you google College Application it’s the first result. I don’t know if I was filing a bill, I might check that. Creating an Illinois specific one doesn’t make any sense-if there is something extra you need, you can add that as an addendum.

    —–• Any high school student with a grade of B or better average will qualify for automatic admission to an academically appropriate public university if they maintain their B average through graduation. This will extend an opportunity to all students in Illinois; while respecting individual institutions rights to admit students that are the best fit for their existing programs.

    This is very unclear. Do students just apply and then get selected by all the institutions that would accept them? It’s unclear and that creates a ton of planning issues. Maybe you thought you wanted to go to NIU and you got accepted at ISU. So do you switch? How does NIU and ISU plan for this sort of thing? After a few years you can start to estimate yield, but it’s tough up front and has a lot of transition costs.

    • Any student who is not offered admission to a public university must automatically be referred to the community college district where they live and provided with enrollment information.

    Good.

    ====• If a public institution of higher education accepts a student, they will receive an acceptance letter from that institution setting forth any grants or scholarship offers extended by the institution at that time.

    This means that the students have do do the FAFSA as well as the application up front. It would be good for students to do that, but it doesn’t always happen. Would those who don’t do it be rejected? Not offered any aid? It’s very confusion and difficulty to coordinate and it’s unclear why it’s beneficial. Usually students have done the FAFSA, but those who don’t often can still submit for federal assistance later than the admission decision date.

    I don’t get the sense that Brady and Chapin Rose have much of an idea how admissions works in most colleges because this proposal does very little to help and probably confuses the situation a lot upfront with a new application that is wasteful given common apps already exist.


  54. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 5:00 pm:

    ===I don’t get the sense that Brady and Chapin Rose have much of an idea how admissions works in most colleges===

    They represent enough colleges between them you’d think they could easily find out if they were so inclined.


  55. - ArchPundit - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 5:03 pm:

    ===They represent enough colleges between them you’d think they could easily find out if they were so inclined.

    No kidding. I understand where the issues are coming from. To many people the process is really obtuse and certainly you could make it better, but they seem to have created a giant Rube Goldberg contraption making it harder.

    Also, tons of grammar mistakes above. My bad.


  56. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Sep 26, 17 @ 5:05 pm:

    ===…you’d think they could easily find out if they were so inclined===

    They’re not. Not in the slightest.

    Coach Wooden isn’t impressed.

    Every single time they allowed Rauner to destroy higher education …

    …this is the pretend “busy work” they are ginning up to make people forget that when higher education needed them, they failed higher education.

    But, please, let’s pretend this is thoughtful and desined to help state universities … when it appears neither know how admissions works or how other states are successfully outworking state universities, and funding state universities isn’t a priority of this sitting governor.

    But, they created some “activity”, LOL


TrackBack URI

Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.


* Reader comments closed for the weekend
* Amazon HQ2 site list unveiled
* Out of sight out of mind?
* Frerichs tries to use state investments to prod Facebook into cleaning up its act
* The rise of the billionaire governors
* Camelot promises to grow lottery sales by 40 percent
* Munger tries to defend Rauner veto of Debt Transparency Act
* Rauner: "I can’t comment on any business disputes"
* Question of the day
* Rauner finally takes a stand on a federal issue
* Moody's says "political backlash" against pop tax could make other tax hikes more difficult
* Report: Amazon subsidy could add up to $2 billion
* *** UPDATED x1 *** 10,800 jobs lost in a single month, but Illinois media barely notices
* SUBSCRIBERS ONLY - Supplement to today’s edition
* SUBSCRIBERS ONLY - Today's edition of Capitol Fax (use all CAPS in password)
* MLB open thread
* Yesterday's stories

Support CapitolFax.com
Visit our advertisers...

...............

...............

...............
<


Loading


* Editorial: In Illinois, only billionaires can r.....
* Letter: Give Trump a chance - Northwest Herald..


* EXCHANGE: After years of searching, adoption mystery solved
* EXCHANGE: Architect saves his deteriorating childhood home
* Chicago restaurant brawl leaves 3 with gunshot wounds
* Illinois city, county to implement domestic violence program
* Suburban neighborhood evacuated after gas explosions
* New Fort Wayne home planned for extensive Lincoln collection
* Peoria police officers to widely use body cameras by spring
* Cemetery won't allow mention of "rapist" priests at grave
* Lincoln museum exhibit features Christmas at the White House
* Voter advocates push Illinois to exit multistate database

* Voter advocates push Illinois to exit multistate database
* Lawmakers set to return Tuesday for veto session
* Illinois Lottery's new manager projects $4B in sales
* UIS students could study at newly proposed Chicago research center
* Aaron Schock attorneys contest federal claims on misstatements
* Under the Dome Podcast: Will lawmakers address gun control during the veto session?
* Chicago lawyer announces bid for Illinois attorney general
* Illinois borrows $1.5B at reduced interest to pay down debt
* Rauner cuts human services, other area in state budget
* Pritzker makes list of richest Americans; Rauner releases tax returns

* Like our roundup? Share it around.
* Is Dem primary over? No, but Pritzker rivals need to pick up pace
* The biggest Chicago-area building sales
* Here are the sites Chicago is pitching to Amazon
* Emanuel's challenges are far from over


* 4 car thefts reported in Back of the Yards
* Police warn of West Town garage burglaries
* Fire officials: 4 people injured in Cragin crash
* Person dies after crash in NW Indiana
* Fire officials: Person critically injured in Gage Park crash
* Police warn of home burglaries in McKinley Park
* Skimming devices found on ATMs across Chicago
* Man shot in Roseland
* Man shot in Longwood Manor
* Pedestrian struck by vehicle, critically injured in Evanston


* From Spanish Steps to the new Apple Store, stairs provide spatial drama
* Will Trump continue to unravel Obama's legacy?
* 1 dead, 9 wounded in Chicago shootings
* Disruptive family member enjoys degrading others
* 13 skimmers found on ATMs citywide; police
* 'Tired mountain syndrome'? North Korea's nuclear test site may have it
* Likely tornado hits casino where Beach Boys were playing in Oklahoma
* 5 former presidents call for unity at hurricane relief concert in Texas
* Lance Bouma nets game winner as Blackhawks down Coyotes 4-2
* Brian Kelly on Notre Dame's 49-14 win over No. 11 USC: 'We want more'


» Voter Advocates Push Illinois To Exit Multistate Database
» Lawmaker Says Facebook Refuses To Fact Check Ads
» State Week: Chasing Amazon, Bonding Debt
» Teaching Kids To ‘Say Something’ In An Era of School Shootings
» Illinois Issues: Cities Lose Out On Retail Tax As Online Shopping Booms
» What Could Hurt Chicago’s Bid For Amazon’s HQ2?
» At CPS, More Special Education Dollars Go To White, Wealthier Students
» Illinois Bond Sale To Help Pay $16bn Debts
» Mayor To Propose Higher Prices For Ridesharing, Big Concerts
» WBEZ Investigation: CPS Secretly Overhauled Special Education At Students’ Expense


* Statehouse Insider: Will veto session show GOP revolt?
* Our View: Figure out how to make Innovation Network a reality
* Angie Muhs: Recognizing what resonates with readers
* Guest View: It's time for more oversight at CWLP
* Young Philanthropists: Banding together to make a difference
* Voter advocates push Illinois to exit multistate database
* Lawmakers set to return Tuesday for veto session
* Guest Column: What taxpayers should demand from next attorney general
* Ed Rogers: The Democratic Party's obsession with Hollywood celebrities was bound to blow up
* Illinois Lottery's new manager projects $4B in sales


* Finding arena's 'sweet spot' a hard act for arena manager
* Chicago artist adds mural to B-N stomping grounds
* School addition nears opening day
* Push renewed to reconsider state’s role in voter database
* Photo: Dropping in
* HOMEBRIEFS
* Commentary: One change could mean sink or swim
* Long-sought designation brings potential
* Slices of Life: Coming clean about ‘miracle’ oil
* Program highlights veterans’ forgotten tales


* After big lull, suburban apartment construction has boomed since 2013
* Nightmarish creatures, zombies take over downtown Elgin
* Grayslake area shooting death under investigation
* Did too many walks prompt Cubs to fire Bosio?
* Arlington Heights couple continues Halloween tradition despite illness

* Teacher raised in Yorkville running agains...
* Dissident artist Ai Weiwei and US Rep. Ran...
* Democratic 14th Congressional District can...
* GOP congressmen say Rauner 'let down' Illi...
* Bipartisan group of lawmakers pushes job t...
* Naperville's Lauren Underwood to run for R...
* Hundreds of high school students tour Smit...
* Measure extends term of FSOC independent m...
* Rival: Kinzinger not conservative - MyWebT...
* Will Trump continue to unravel Obama's leg...

* Senator Durbin Releases Report on Trump's ......

* Infrastructure a priority in meeting with ......

* Margate Park Presents Haunted Movies
* Volunteer Actors/Extras Sought For Disaster Scenario
* Maryville Progress By Day and By Night
* Sarah Karp’s report on Forrest Claypool’s secret study, special ed service cuts and outrageous consultant fees. $15 million for proof reading?
* Inappropriate.
* Palatine para-professionals aren’t worth an 11 cent raise but they are too essential to allow them to strike.
* Keeping retirement weird. They don’t want to just end our defined benefit. They’re going after the defined contribution too. Shameless thieves.
* Do knee-jerk pols put any thought into votes they cast on govt. business?
* Chicago Design Week’s best events
* Illinois teacher retirees: What the hell is Walgreen’s up to?


* Illinois Awarded Funds to Offer Advanced Training on Detecting Impaired Driving
* Illinois EPA Announces Upcoming Household Hazardous Waste Collection Events
* IEMA Highlights Emergency Preparedness for People with Access and Functional Needs in May - Ready Illinois website offers preparedness tips for people, caregivers
* First Lady Launches Illinois Family Connects
* Governor and Lt. Governor Unveil 2016 Journal of Local Government Shared Service Best Practices

  
* Emonster sues Apple for violating Animoji trademark
* GitHub’s scandalized ex-CEO returns with Chatterbug
* How many HTC U11 Plus specs can fit in an evleaks tweet?
* Google will refund you if you overpaid for a Pixel 2 at a pop-up store
* Redesigning the TechCrunch app
* JerryRigEverything slams Pixel 2 durability
* Google Pixel 2: A Fantastic First Impression (Video)

* #AwardWorthy: Vote for Engel's glove
* Sporcle Saturday: Long bombs
* Petricka undergoes surgery on right elbow
* Avisail sees similarities in rebuild, stellar year
* White Sox Arizona Fall League overview
* Ron Gardenhire’s second chance back in AL Central
* Jimenez among prospects in winter leagues


Main Menu
Home
Illinois
YouTube
Pundit rankings
Obama
Subscriber Content
Durbin
Burris
Blagojevich Trial
Advertising
Updated Posts
Polls

Archives
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004

Blog*Spot Archives
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005

Syndication

RSS Feed 2.0
Comments RSS 2.0
WordPress




Hosted by MCS SUBSCRIBE to Capitol Fax Advertise Here Mobile Version Contact Rich Miller