51 Comments - old pol - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 10:47 am: You’re right - it isn’t rocket science. It’s all the same to the taxpayer regardless of which government entity is paying the bill. - Rich Miller - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 10:48 am: ===It’s all the same to the taxpayer regardless of which government entity=== Definitely not. Property taxes are not based on the ability to pay. - northernwatersports - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 10:49 am: Thx Rich, I was just sayin’ that to my breakfast friends now…. - Annonin' - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 10:50 am: Capt fax you must understand that what these GOPies are really saying is just cut those generous salaries, pensions and benefits we shovel out to those lazy teachers, cops, firemen etc. Simple message. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 10:51 am: ===Property taxes are not based on the ability to pay.=== This is a fundamental. Lacking this fundamental, you can’t discuss property taxes, income taxes, and the measures EACH puts on those being taxed. If ability to pay was a factor in property taxes, why are there seniors being “taxed” out of their homes, and then used as an example of what’s wrong with property taxes at the levels they are? - City Zen - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 10:51 am: Property taxes are the only way to get retirees to pony up for their local schools. Unless… - Rich Miller - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 10:52 am: ===Property taxes are the only way to get retirees to pony up for their local schools=== True, but I didn’t argue for eliminating property taxes. - Lucky Pierre - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 10:54 am: it also stands to reason if Springfield did not pass unfunded mandates and work rules on to local school districts property taxes would not be the second highest in America - Streator Curmudgeon - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 10:55 am: == “There’s not a lot that we at the state level can do to directly address property taxes.” == Then why are Republican statewide candidates saying in their TV ads that Madigan and Kwame Raoul are scheming to keep property taxes high? - Rich Miller - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 10:56 am: ===work rules=== Another way for Rauner types to say “right to work.” And that ain’t happening here unless a potential blue wave turns deeply red very soon. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 10:56 am: ===…and work rules…=== Reminds me of the “sham” votes. You ‘nember those… the votes to help with property tax relief, but refused to end prevailing wage and collective bargaining. Can’t vote on tax relief… unless labor gets punished. Good times. - Smalls - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 10:57 am: What is unclear from the national study is if pension $ are figured in there. If other states have the local school districts paying for pensions, and in Illinois the state is paying for pensions, that could be where Illinois is paying more than it appears. - Lester Holt’s Mustache - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 10:57 am: Sure, but it goes against what is politically beneficial to what McConchie and the rest of the Republican Party in Illinois are trying to do - get elected. Republican voters don’t want to raise taxes, ever, even if it is for school funding. More importantly (to ILGA republicans) they’d be taking a major political talking point off the table if they agreed to do this. It would kill their messaging version of the golden goose - Madigan wants everyone to pay higher property taxes so that he can get rich through his appeals firm. Remember, that’s the whole reason he has amassed all this power and won’t let go. - Stan - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:00 am: -IL only contributes less than 20% of the money for educating public K-12 students.- While the state needs to do better it likely contributes more than 20% because pension costs are usually not included in these statistics. Obviously you can’t count the “catch up” amount but the normal costs should be added. - Anonymous - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:01 am: This study addresses the red herring of state dollars when it comes to property taxes. You need to compare the share of state ed $ that goes to pensions in IL vs. other states to see the full picture. https://www.illinoispolicy.org/reports/pensions-make-illinois-property-taxes-among-nations-most-painful/ - anon2 - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:02 am: The key numbers are the 47% national average of state funding for schools and the 20% of state funding in Illinois. When Republicans talk about property tax relief, they don’t want to address those numbers. Unless and until the Land of Lincoln pays a much larger share of education costs, there will be no significant property tax relief. That’s reality. Talk about property tax relief that ignores reality is just a distraction. - Lucky Pierre - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:02 am: Rauner is trying to change that. He’s attempting to eliminate some of the most unpopular unfunded mandates from Springfield under which school districts around the state must operate. Rauner said this could save districts across the state more than $200 million a year. As reported by The Associated Press: “Illinois imposes well over 100 mandates on school districts, covering everything from classroom content to parent-teacher conferences and school holidays. Districts that cannot or don’t want to follow the mandate may apply for a limited number of waivers — a process that requires public hearings, paperwork and state approval. Rauner is targeting three areas that are particularly unpopular: Mandates that districts offer driver’s education and behind-the-wheel training and daily physical education, and restrictions on third-party contracting, or outsourcing, for services such as transportation and janitorial work.” The elimination of such unfunded mandates would be a significant and welcome reform. Local districts, along with the students and parents they serve, are the primary stakeholders in education and should decide how best to run their schools. The fewer rules imposed by the state, the better – especially when such rules impose significant financial burdens on the school districts that are subject to them.” You are right it ain’t happening anytime soon Democrats claim to care anything that reduces the wages and standard of living for middle class families except crushing property tax burdens - Leigh John-Ella - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:03 am: Families in McConchie’s area demand top notch schools. That’s why their property taxes are high. If he wants lower property taxes he should stand up and start talking about the local school programs and salaries he wants slashed. I’m always stunned by these state lawmakers who come to Springfield to fight local property taxes. Run for the school board if you want to dismantle your local schools. - muon - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:06 am: There have been plenty of mechanisms proposed over at least the last 30 years to swap property taxes for some other tax, be it income or expanded sales taxes. At least in the Chicago suburbs, most voters would take the swap as long as there was some guarantee that the decrease in property tax wasn’t temporary. That’s where some of the problem has been - how does one guarantee that property tax decrease. Other states, like Michigan in the 90’s or Massachusetts around 1980, found a way to do it. Illinois hasn’t been willing to take on the hard cap to local school revenue that those mechanisms require. - zatoichi - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:10 am: I want good schools, best teachers, good roads, snow removed, sewers/water/bridges, clean water, great police/fire. I’d rather not pay much so do not spend much or pay well, but I want high quality services. - Anon221 - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:10 am: One way to help out those of us who are “subsidizing” the State’s non-payment share of education funding would be to raise the Property Tax Credit allowance to 15-25% (with caps) instead of 5%. http://www.revenue.state.il.us/Individuals/Credits/PropertyTaxCredit.htm - Rich Miller - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:11 am: ===Rauner said this could save districts across the state more than $200 million a year=== In other words, it “could” shave 1 percent tops off local tax bills for schools and 0.7 percent off of property tax bills in general. And that’s based on rates from three years ago. They’re higher now, so the savings percentages are lower. You’re gonna have to do better than that. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:13 am: ===He’s attempting to eliminate some of the most unpopular unfunded mandates from Springfield under which school districts around the state must operate.== Collective bargaining and prevailing wage? I’d ask Missourah how that went with their “Right to Work” referendum. Would you like a “Right to Work” referendum? Ohio has to rethink, with Kasich, Labor and the GOP, losing on his labor ballot prop. - City Zen - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:18 am: ==Families in McConchie’s area demand top notch schools. That’s why their property taxes are high.== A quick review of Barrington and Hawthorn school district finances shows those districts receive merely 6-8% state funding towards educational costs. That’s also why their property taxes are high. - Anonymous - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:26 am: People love to complain about the cost of teacher salaries and benefits. If they only knew how many other employees in the school there are(with salaries and benefits), dwarfing the actual number of instructing teachers, as well as a myriad of services provided that are more in the healthcare realm (not educational), and transportation services………..I could go on and on. In a relatives district he taught in, there were so many “extra” personnel by the time he left that teachers cars in the parking lot only took up one third of the spaces. So schools not only need to be totally transparent about what they do each day, but more importantly, people need to look! It all costs money. It’s assumed that kids go to school and teachers teach them. Far more goes on but teachers get the blame for eating up dollars. - City Zen - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:28 am: zatoichi - Did you pay MSRP on your last automobile purchase or did you whittle the price down to a point where the dealer barely broke even and the salesman made peanuts on his commission? And did your expectations of quality change as your bargained the price down in your race to the bottom? You “good schools, good roads…” argument can be applied to any financial decision you make in life. Do you pay full price? Over asking price because your perceived value exceeds the price tag? Or do you hand over the Bed Bath and Beyond coupon like the rest of us? - Grandson of Man - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:29 am: This should be a big fat meatball down the middle of the plate for Pritzker: sell the progressive income tax as a way to reduce/control property taxes and bring tax fairness by having him and Bruce pay a higher state income tax. Remind voters that Bruce wants to union bust and rip the savings out of workers through harsh cuts, and the Pritzker plan is the alternative. But create the plan with some specifics. - Al - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:34 am: The general assembly could raise hundreds of millions a year from Casino monopolies to fund the k12 local public schools. Having a top gaming tax rate of merely 50% apply to amount greater than $200 million means only one licensee pays any money at the top rate. - RNUG - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 11:56 am: == Property taxes are not based on the ability to pay. == == This is a fundamental. Lacking this fundamental, you can’t discuss property taxes, income taxes, and the measures EACH puts on those being taxed. If ability to pay was a factor in property taxes, why are there seniors being “taxed” out of their homes, and then used as an example of what’s wrong with property taxes at the levels they are? == It’s a bit more nuanced than that. You can argue that people only buy houses they can afford, so that taxed asset is based on their ability to pay. As to the retiree being taxed out of their home, the retiree income tax break partially (upstate) or mostly (downstate) offsets the property tax. That said, I do agree that the State should be paying more of the local school costs and that could (repeat could, not would) lower the property taxes. Personally, even though it most likely would cost me more money, I think an increased and expanded income tax should be tied to a mandated reduction in local school taxes. And Rich is totally correct in calling out any politicians who call for power property taxes without a plan for proper state level school funding. - Boone's is Back - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 12:07 pm: ===“There’s not a lot that we at the state level can do to directly address property taxes. We need local units of government to constrain their own budgets.”=== That’s not only a cop out but just plain wrong. Pension reform and a true path to fiscal solvency is the only way to truly ease property tax burdens in this state. It’s the largest driver of local property taxes. A constitutional amendment via the legislature (or a ballot initiative / Con-con) is the only vehicle to make that happen. And if Rauner were smart he would have put Madigan/ Cullerton in a box on this issue rather than push the right to work garbage in his first term. - Anonymous - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 12:08 pm: Is there still a state property tax on railroad property? - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 12:12 pm: - RNUG - I hear ya. To your retort… with great respect as always… ===You can argue that people only buy houses they can afford, so that taxed asset is based on their ability to pay.=== You can argue that. What is also argued is that folks buying homes “must” appeal their taxes to keep them within what they feel is an acceptable rate. To go more deeply into this… ===As to the retiree being taxed out of their home, the retiree income tax break partially (upstate) or mostly (downstate) offsets the property tax.=== All true to the workable belief it works, but there is that donut hole where some *can* get relief, but make too much money that they need to help with other costs to cover healthcare, so the property taxes can’t get that relief. The fundamental is… your income and expenses can change, the property tax for a home continues to be based on that home, not on the fluid situation the owner(s) may find to be changing, including retirement. - RNUG - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 12:23 pm: == What is also argued is that folks buying homes “must” appeal their taxes to keep them within what they feel is an acceptable rate. == That’s more a Chicago / Cook / collar issue than it is downstate. Here in Sangamon the assessed value tends to actually reflect market value. They review assessed value based on actual sales data. Plus most the local townships make sure you are getting your senior citizens exemption, and freeze if applicable, every year. And if it does get out of line, the appeals process is pretty easy if you have a professional appraisal. Been there, done that. I didn’t know about the automatic sales review until my son bought a home a couple of years ago. Right after closing, I went with him to file an appeal since the purchase price was lower than the assessed value. The assessor’s office was already on top of it. - Cocoa Dave - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 12:23 pm: It sure sounds nice having the state pick up more of the tab for education funding. Certainly state taxes would need to be raised if this were to happen. But I doubt most local and country government property taxes would drop. They need that revenue to fund polce, fire and adminstrative pensions. It’s just a bad situation all around. - muon - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 12:52 pm: OW raises an important point about seniors who make too much to get some of the relief they might, yet have over expenses related to health that decreases their ability to pay. Yet targeted sales tax expansion into services used disproportionately by higher income families doesn’t seem to be discussed as an alternative to income taxes. In 2007 the legislature had a pair of bills HB750 and SB750 designed to bring down the level of property taxes. Today the expanded sales taxes in HB750 would be bringing in over $2 billion in additional revenue. As discretionary services they would better reflect an ability to pay. That seems to me like a better way to address some of OW’s donut hole than an income tax whether flat or graduated. - Old Pol - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 1:03 pm: “Ability to pay” is a non-sensical argument. How can “you” tell me I gave the ability to pay. Shifting from property taxes to income taxes or sales taxes is not relieving “the taxpayer” of anything. It’s simply a redistribution of the burden based on political ideology and power. It provides no relief to the taxpayer as a whole. That was my point. To the taxpayer as a whole it does not matter which entity pays for schools. What we need is to reform the costs that drive the need for the taxes. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 1:11 pm: - RNUG - ===…if applicable…=== Respectfully, it could apply one year, and income and other earning factors change the next. Also… ===That’s more a Chicago / Cook / collar issue than it is downstate. Here in Sangamon the assessed value tends to actually reflect market value. They review assessed value based on actual sales data. Plus most the local townships make sure you are getting your senior citizens exemption, and freeze if applicable, every year. And if it does get out of line, the appeals process is pretty easy if you have a professional appraisal.=== This in its entirety, is all true, but it doesn’t address “ability” just the task of uniformity to task. It’s alwsys an interesting argument to delve deep into the property taxing question. ===That seems to me like a better way to address some of OW’s donut hole than an income tax whether flat or graduated.=== I’m all I’m favor of finding solutions to problems. I’m big on those willing to step up to find solutions too. - Lucky Pierre - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 1:19 pm: Grandson, Maybe you missed this meatball from a few months back. The is hardly a big fat meatball “The Illinois House Tuesday endorsed the idea of a graduated state income tax, but only by the slimmest of margins. A non-binding resolution passed the chamber on a 61-52 vote. That’s just one more than the minimum House Resolution 105 needed to pass. It was also far less than the 71 votes the measure would need in the House to place a constitutional amendment on the ballot, which is the only way Illinois can get a graduated state income tax. The earliest such an amendment could get on the ballot is 2020. J.B. Pritzker, the Democratic candidate for governor, has called for a progressive state income tax which would apply higher rates to higher incomes. However, he has not specified what the rates would be under his proposal.’ JB is hanging his entire campaign on passing something that fell 10 votes short just a few months back. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 1:48 pm: And here is where… ====A non-binding resolution passed the chamber on a 61-52 vote. That’s just one more than the minimum House Resolution 105 needed to pass. It was also far less than the 71 votes the measure would need in the House to place a constitutional amendment on the ballot, which is the only way Illinois can get a graduated state income tax. The earliest such an amendment could get on the ballot is 2020. J.B. Pritzker, the Democratic candidate for governor, has called for a progressive state income tax which would apply higher rates to higher incomes. However, he has not specified what the rates would be under his proposal.’ JB is hanging his entire campaign on passing something that fell 10 votes short just a few months back.=== …”Lucky Pierre” ruins Rauner’s point… that Pritzker WILL raise your taxes. “Lucky Pierre”… says it won’t happen. Congratulations “Lucky Pierre” - Anonymous - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 2:15 pm: ==Did you whittle the price down to a point where the dealer barely broke even and the salesman made peanuts on his commission? And did your expectations of quality change?== Poor dealer. Poor salesman. Do you shoo the buzzards and step over their corpses when you go back to get a newer car? - BlueDogDem - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 2:29 pm: Yes indeed. This ain’t rocket science. Whatever buffoons dreamt up the idea of having the lions share of k-12 paid by property taxes have the satisfaction of knowing they have ruined our state now and forever. No fixing it. Yes. I am defeated. - Last Bull Moose - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 2:56 pm: At least property taxes stay in the local area. As we have discussed here before, state funds tend to flow from wealthy areas and people to poorer areas and people. With most of the property tax money going to schools, we could strengthen school oversight by moving school board elections to the same day as the general election. That way we get a broader mix of voters. Special elections favor special interests. - City Zen - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 3:12 pm: ==Do you shoo the buzzards and step over their corpses when you go back to get a newer car?== I’d like to frame this response for posterity. ==we could strengthen school oversight by moving school board elections to the same day as the general election.== The pro-school referenda folks won’t like this. - Grandson of Man - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 3:48 pm: “Maybe you missed this meatball from a few months back. The is hardly a big fat meatball” I disagree and am talking about the political perspective. Voters supported the millionaire surcharge in 2014 and overwhelmingly supported the surcharge and a progressive income tax in a poll earlier this year, I believe 76% and 72% respectively. Make the choice stark: raise taxes on the rich, which is beyond overdue and has contributed to our chronic fiscal problems, or go the Bruce way, which is union-busting and ensuring that workers’ rights and economic standards are lowered as an absolute economic requirement. Bruce says we need stuff like local RtW, stripping collective bargaining and ending prevailing wage before businesses invest in Illinois. I believe it is a big fat meatball, politically and in context. Since we’re discussing specifics today, when is Rauner going to run on his anti-union plans and make them clear and open to us? - Conn Smythe - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 4:01 pm: Count me skeptical local school districts would decrease their levy if we found a big infusion of cash for schools. they’d fall back on their greatest hits of excuses- unfunded mandate and personnel costs that they completely control yet mysteriously eat alive. - Anonymous - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 4:31 pm: ==Ability to pay” is a non-sensical argument. How can “you” tell me I have the ability to pay. Shifting from property taxes to income taxes or sales taxes is not relieving “the taxpayer” of anything.== Well, if you lose your job and your income goes down you pay less income tax. Your property tax doesn’t go down. If you have medical expenses with IL flat tax you don’t get a break. That could be addressed by the GA. - Shemp - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 5:09 pm: And some of the biggest growth in city levies is for fire and police pensions. Guess who doesn’t have control over the pension benefits, retirement ages, years of service requirements etc.? Cities. Guess who does? - RNUG - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 5:56 pm: == Count me skeptical local school districts would decrease their levy if we found a big infusion of cash for schools. == The State could mandate the locsl School tax levy be reduced permanently by the amount of new money from the State … or give the local school district the option of refusing the new State money and keep their current tax levy. - RNUG - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 6:00 pm: == Make the choice stark: raise taxes on the rich, which is beyond overdue and has contributed to our chronic fiscal problems, or … == Make it even starker: choose between an 8% flat tax or a progressive tax with a sliding scale from 0% to 10%. Voters will pick the second choice every time because they won’t expect the higher tax to apply to them. - Anonymous - Thursday, Aug 23, 18 @ 7:25 pm: You do have to wonder what our state does with it’s money. We can’t seem to fund much of anything properly, thus, high property taxes. But really………where does it go? On the other hand, cut back in schools (number of students/class, program elimination, etc) and the world has ended. For those who have no children in their homes, it’s real easy to say 30 students/class, eliminate here and there, but when parents of students are involved? No one wants their kid to get less. They’re the best promoters at referendum time. Tireless. Thus the dilemma of publicly funded education. - NorthsideNoMore - Friday, Aug 24, 18 @ 7:00 am: The once Great State is woefully deficient in funding education at all levels. There is an over abundance of k-12 districts and there should be consolidation (some of our nighboring states figured that two decades or more ago). Some districts in Illinois have figured it out but there a scads more that need to be consolidated. As for Higher Ed well we all know that funding issues are whats causing the brain drian Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.