62 Comments - Nick - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 2:51 pm: Democrats honestly need to stop conceding the idea that everyone making $200K or even $250K is somehow middle class. You’re talking about double, triple, even quadruple the state’s median income. They may not be buffets or rauners but those incomes certainly aren’t middle class. - Anonymous - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 2:55 pm: I’m curious as to how those numbers are possible given that Minnesota’s lowest tax rate is 5.35% http://www.revenue.state.mn.us/individuals/individ_income/pages/minnesota_income_tax_rates_and_brackets.aspx - ZC - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 2:55 pm: Mildly disagree Rich. If your family income is $250K or more, you’re rich. I’m saying this as someone recently added to this club. People making $250K or more may not -feel- rich … but they need to get out more, and stop comparing themselves to people making a million per year. Many people making a million a year, meanwhile, will also complain that they’re not rich, because they’re comparing themselves to the $5M / year folks (whose dinner parties they can now get invites to). If your family is $250K or up … you’re rich. You might not be “wealthy” but if you can’t build some wealth making $250K per year, you need to think about your family’s consumption choices. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 2:56 pm: ===I’m curious as to how those numbers are possible === I’m curious why you don’t use a simple Google search before saying something so goofy. It’s not the rates. It’s effective rates. Up your game. - Michelle Flaherty - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 2:57 pm: Illinois Chamber of Commerce President and CEO Todd Maisch did not get a callback after this audition for the role of middle-class man. - Wealthy despite my salary - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 2:58 pm: Is Maisch kidding? “You do not build wealth if you are a family making $250,000.” I built wealth making about a third of that. That is more than four times Illinois median household income. - Former Downstater - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:02 pm: Today’s event was the wealthy talking to the wealthy and won’t do anything to change the race. Maisch gave Democrats a great talking point. - City Zen - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:04 pm: Well, I’m sold on Minnesota. Now all I need is a 50% rebate on my property taxes plus an additional refund as Minnesota spends $1,800 per child on education. Unfortunately, I’ll have to break the bad news to the parentals they’ll be paying state income taxes on their retirement income. Minnesota here we come, right back where we started from. - City Zen - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:05 pm: Oops, that’s $1,800 less per child. Apologies. - Under Influenced.... - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:06 pm: Maisch’s comments help explain why the GOP has shifted from the party of Romney and Co. to Trump and Co…..$250k and you can’t build wealth? Hey Todd, come muck around with us commoners once in a while. - Responsa - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:07 pm: ==Maisch gave Democrats a great talking point.== Are you saying there are no Democrat families in this demographic who worry about their finances and taxes and wonder where JB’s “tax the rich plan” is leading? - Skeptic - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:08 pm: “I built wealth making about a third of that.” I suspect you don’t have a million dollar home and a boat and 2.5 BMWs and a vacation condo and yearly European vacations … you know all the necessities of life. After all that, who has money left over to build wealth. /s - Nick - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:13 pm: This also leads into why I hate people for not understanding how tax brackets and effective tax rates work. Though I suspect that’s intentional on a lot of conservative’s part; people thinking the higher bracket applies to their entire income. Though it’s also a huge failure of our education system. - LXB - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:17 pm: ==Maisch’s comments help explain why the GOP has shifted from the party of Romney and Co. to Trump and Co.== Indeed, from started rich and got richer to started rich and declared bankruptcy multiple times. - Former Downstater - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:19 pm: ==Are you saying there are no Democrat families in this demographic who worry about their finances and taxes and wonder where JB’s “tax the rich plan” is leading?== I’m sure there are. I’ll also bet there are far more families (D, R and I) who think the notion that people making $250k per year are not “rich” is laughable, insulting and completely out of touch. - Precinct Captain - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:19 pm: The rich are out of touch. - Michelle Flaherty - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:22 pm: Because when you want advice on how to help the middle class the best people to listen to are wealthy CEOs, always. - Cubs in '16 - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:24 pm: “You do not build (wealth) if you are a family making $250,000.” Todd may be right depending on the size of the “family” and where you live. But it’s all relative. People are free to make choices about where they live. He’s painting with much too broad a brush. - Generic Drone - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:25 pm: I would love to be $250k a year poor. - hisgirlfriday - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:30 pm: Granted I live Downstate now but I lived in the loop in the past decade and I have to ask who in Illinois cannot build wealth making $250,000 annually?!?! My hubby and I make roughly half that combined pre-tax. Thanks to my post-undergrad school loans, my family pays the equivalent of a second mortgage on top of our mortgage and will keep doing so for several more years. We also both have car loans and then some day care costs on top of that. And… we can still go out to eat and go to movies whenever we want. We don’t carry any credit card debt. We can max out our 401k matches at work and set aside other savings. We can plan weekend getaways and take a vacation or two per year. We have a bigger house than either of our parents did. We are rich! Todd Maisch is so completely out of touch as are most Republican electeds who spend all day begging for donations from people who make more than $250,000 a year. Maybe that’s how Republicans like Maisch decide you are rich. If you have idle tens of thousands of dollars in cash sitting around to waste on politics. Then you’re rich. - RNUG - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:31 pm: If you are in the upper 20%, you are wealthy. Period. For a family of 2, that is about $100K. For a family of 4, that is about $150K. You may not feel wealthy. You won’t have a Lifestyle of the Rich and Famous; you’ll be living in an older home and driving older cars. You will still have to follow a budget and worry about spending. And if you live in a high cost urban area like metro Chicago, you are going to be seriously struggling to stay above water. But you will be doing better than most people, not just in Illinois but better than the average person in the USA. - Get it Solved - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:33 pm: Todd Maisch is out of touch. You do not build (wealth) if you are a family making $250,000.” Wow! - Three Dimensional Checkers - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:37 pm: I think the $100k-$150k range is difficult because you can have two people in a household working at pretty modest jobs, but together are in that range. There are probably a lot of people like that who would not say or feel they’re rich, but are doing pretty well. It’s a difficult political problem. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:47 pm: –Illinois Chamber of Commerce President and CEO Todd Maisch did not get a callback after this audition for the role of middle-class man.– No worries. He’s still dining on the gig laundering Rauner money so the Chamber could pay for Dunkin’s TV spots. Buffers. That’s how you get rich. - Responsa - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:48 pm: ==@RNUG - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:31 pm:== I don’t think many would disagree with your conclusion. But what I think Rich (Miller) was bringing up here is that JB and other commenters who use the term “rich” are obfuscating about who and what levels of wealth and income would be taxed substantially more (like he and Rauner) should his fair tax ever come to pass. As an aside, in past eras people used to avoid talking about their money in public by saying “we’re not rolling in dough, but we’re comfortable”. I haven’t heard that euphemism in a long time. - Anonymous - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:49 pm: 250K is upper middle class to me. It all depends where and how you live. Wilmette house, nice car and most of that money is spent in a year. In my Southwest Side neighborhood, no one makes that money. But few miles over in Burr Ridge… - Lester Holt’s Mustache - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:52 pm: ==Are you saying there are no Democrat families in this demographic who worry about their finances and taxes and wonder where JB’s “tax the rich plan” is leading?== If there are, they are likely to be much more open to higher taxes on themselves and others like them. For Maisch and the rest of the friends of Bruce Rauner, tax rates on the wealthy seem to be the first, second and third concerns in life. I doubt there are many who list upper income tax rates as a major concern claiming to be members of the Democratic party. - Anonymous - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:56 pm: $250K is definitely rich, especially if your a single income household. - Arthur Andersen - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 3:59 pm: RNUG, though I generally agree with your assessment, I think there are plenty of double-income families making in the low six figures who, after paying for childcare at today’s prices and paying for/saving for college, don’t feel wealthy or rich at all and I agree with them. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 4:00 pm: ===definitely rich=== Again, it’s a loaded term. Lots of people who make that kind of money don’t feel rich, for various reasons. But they are most definitely upper-income. - Ducky LaMoore - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 4:04 pm: ===You do not build (wealth) if you are a family making $250,000.=== Wow dude. I build plenty of wealth on 1/4 of that. - JS Mill - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 4:04 pm: =He pointed to Minnesota, saying the top tax rates there are paid by families making more than $250,000 per year.= Ah, Minnesota. The Northern state with the fridgiid weather that discovered that paying your bills leads to a better economy. Yet many of our wealthiest citizens cannot support that kind of success. They use emotional blackmail (we will move) to hold the state in a constant position of crisis. This is about at least one segment of the wealthiest citizens convincing a segment of the rest of the population that they shouldn’t pay their fair share. All evidence to the contrary. - Skeptic - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 4:08 pm: “Again, it’s a loaded term.” And as many have pointed out, relative. There was a guy that played basketball known as “Little Ricky Green.” He was 6′1″. - @misterjayem - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 4:11 pm: You make a quarter-of-a-million dollars per a year and you don’t feel rich? More money ain’t gonna fix whatever’s missing from your life. – MrJM - Ole General - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 4:19 pm: RNUG 150k isn’t much in Chicago even with a family of 3. Let me break it down with a married couple with a young baby. 150,000 Taxes (Fed) - 33k State - 7,425 Housing (3br in Chicago w/ decent schools) - $3000 per month 36k 1 Car - National average car payment is $523 per month - 6,276 Roth IRA’s - $5500 each - 11k Child Car - $1500 or more each month - 18k Food/Basic household needs - $750 per month - $9,000 Gas,insurance, utilities - $500 per month - $6000 CTA passes for 2 - $220 per month - $2,640 Clothing $200 per month - $2200 Vacations - $2500 per year Giving - 10% of after Tax - Roughly $10k Total - $144,041 That isn’t contributing to a traditional 401k, taking one decent vacation a year and only paying for 1 child in daycare. 150k in Chicago is middle-class. Period. Nothing in that list is extreme. It’s 1 car, moderate housing and 1 child with two parents working full-time. 250k is when you start getting breathing room. 300+ is when you actually can save a healthy amount per year. - Actual Red - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 4:20 pm: If anything, this debate just shows how buck wild income inequality in this country is. If you are making $250,000 in Illinois, you are making more than 95% of households in the state. If “Top 5%” doesn’t count as rich, I don’t know what does. But others are also right to point out that it’s hard to feel “rich” when you’re in that bracket when you can see people like Rauner, Pritzker, and others who may make many times what you do, and whose lifestyles seem absolutely alien to you. But since we are all trained to look upward, people in that bracket don’t realize that their lifestyle, which from the inside doesn’t seem ostentatious or extravagant, is itself alien to the majority of people in the state and country. - Anonymous - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 4:28 pm: $1,6488 - the amount a retiree will pay on $40,000 in pension benefits vs $0 in Illinois. - Anonymous - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 4:29 pm: Under Minnesota’s rates, Illinoisans making over $49k a year would see a tax increase from what they are paying now in Illinois. - Lucky Pierre - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 4:29 pm: $ 3 grand a month for a house in Chicago area with decent schools? Are you assuming zero property tax because this is a rental? - Nick - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 4:39 pm: Am I supposed to feel sorry for the Chicago family making $150K a year who can still budget a couple grand for a vacation , $11K into a Roth IRA, a giving a further 10% of their after tax income? It doesn’t matter insecure they may feel thats living well off. - Ole General - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 4:46 pm: Lucky Pierre, yes I am. Nick, you clearly don’t know how to budget. And I also hope you’re a kid because if you think saving for a decent retirement and spending $850 per person on travel is a lot, then you have a lot to learn. - Bashful raconteur - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 5:00 pm: So we focus only on Maisch’s comments. Y’all are missing a bigger point. Employers pay wages, benefits, taxes, work comp, unemployment, plus give to their community. Small biz employ 50% of pvt sector workers. They create more net new jobs than bigs. They know the fantasy that Pritzker is peddling is exactly like Blago. Promise more spending (with no detail other than tax the super rich) and he will solve all that ails. Puuuhleeze. Dem voters got suckered for Blagos two terms. Are y’all falling for it again…hook, line and sinker? It’s a fantasy. The middle class, 70K to pick a number will be paying for his stuff. He can tax himself silly and it’s a rounding number. How do you feel about an 7 percent low rate on 70K and then increasing brackets up to 11%? Think about it. - No Longer A Lurker - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 5:05 pm: Well Todd if you can’t build wealth on 250K a year then you perhaps are living beyond your means. - Three Dimensional Checkers - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 5:07 pm: Although if you’re making $250k a year and not building wealth, I’d maybe look at some of your, um, spending habits. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 5:10 pm: –Are you assuming zero property tax because this is a rental?– Are you assuming that rent doesn’t cover the property taxes? You’re some businessman. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 5:16 pm: Let’s give a holler to the Chamber’s Todd Maisch for pointing out that union teachers, cops, firefighters, state workers, etc., ain’t getting nowhere rich on their salaries or their pensions in lieu of Social Security. Heckuva job, Toddy. This is your biggest contribution for your members since telling them to “hang in there” during the squeeze-the-beast era when they were unwillingly lending the state billions of dollars a year. Or, maybe it was the Dunkin spot, your endorsement of one of your worst-rated legislators. Your members get a lot from you, for their dues. - HangingOn - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 5:46 pm: == Food/Basic household needs - $750 per month - $9,000== Wow. Where do they shop? I have to get by on $200/month for me and a teenager. Chicago people have to pay $250 per person? - Mama - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 6:30 pm: “Chicago people have to pay $250 per person” Is that for eating at restaurants most of the time, and booze for the adults? - RNUG - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 6:45 pm: - Ole General - That’s why I said: And if you live in a high cost urban area like metro Chicago, you are going to be seriously struggling to stay above water. - SSL - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 7:22 pm: Wealth is a relative term. In one recent study, participants equated a net worth greater than 5 million to be wealthy. I’m guessing most of the regulars in these parts would disagree. - Nick - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 7:23 pm: The point is ole general that your budgeting scenario pretty much shows a family that is, by any definition, well off. They’re saving decently for retirement, they’re able to budget for a vacation every year, they’ve giving decently to charity, can afford child care arrangements. They aren’t financially insecure, they’re not choosing between work and watching the kids. They may not be driving porsches or going to Europe twice a year but you don’t need those things to be well off. Their income is, at 150K, ~2.5 times the state median. Someone making a 100K is much more middle class in Chicago than anyone making 50% more than them. - Anonymous - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 8:20 pm: If one only looks at the number figure, sure, it’s easy to say a certain amount qualifies for wealthy. But that same number in different geographical areas means different things. As stated above, for a family of 2 living in the burbs, you are struggling. Housing is terribly expensive, real estate taxes, etc. That same income in rural areas can buy you a house for less than your yearly income. So, it’s too hard to identify wealthy. Should be adjusted for zip code. - Jibba - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 8:22 pm: The problem is that you cannot decide the start of a progressive tax on the level that might not adversely affect the poorest rich people in the richest part of the state. It would exclude rich people across the state. Enough loaded words in that sentence? One thing that might be helpful when designing progressive tax rates would be to have more brackets, which would be set up to minimize impacts to people under 150K or so. If they are only paying 1% more (or so) on their last 30K of income, that is not a killer. Perhaps 3% to 50K, 4% to 75K, 5% to 100K, etc. - wordslinger - Tuesday, Sep 18, 18 @ 9:46 pm: –Again, it’s a loaded term. Lots of people who make that kind of money don’t feel rich, for various reasons. But they are most definitely upper-income.– True. At the same time, Todd is such a dingbat he makes Fredo look like Vito. - Stuntman Bob's Brother - Wednesday, Sep 19, 18 @ 12:07 am: ==One thing that might be helpful when designing progressive tax rates would be to have more brackets== Jibba, check out California’s structure below. Ten different rates, counting the additional 1% surcharge for over a million per year. Does JB walk the walk, or would he choke on the 13.3% top rate on the majority of his income? The great thing about it is that it is generous to the working poor. https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator - Barrington - Wednesday, Sep 19, 18 @ 5:52 am: Just as a FYI, Minnesota state taxes based on Federally taxable income, while Illinois state tax is based on AGI, a difference of about $10;000 for single filers and $20,000 for joint. Children were an additional amount. Federal tax changes in 2018 will change this amount as there is no longer exemptions for children at federal level. - Middle Class - Wednesday, Sep 19, 18 @ 8:03 am: ==Mildly disagree Rich. If your family income is $250K or more, you’re rich. I’m saying this as someone recently added to this club.== Annual income does not make you “rich.” “Rich” means you don’t “need” to labor to earn a paycheck to pay for “things” like student loan debt, mortgage, child care, children’s education, healthcare and retirement savings. So unless you have all those items covered in perpetuity and $2-3 million in retirement savings, I would hesitate to label anyone as “rich” based solely on annual income. - Evanstonian - Wednesday, Sep 19, 18 @ 8:18 am: Ole General, your math is also off. Married filing jointly on 3 deductions in Illinois is not 33k in federal taxes, its just less than 23k, and your Illinois taxes are 7100 not 7425. If you want to bring numbers, bring them all and bring them correctly. Please go back to the drawing board. - City Zen - Wednesday, Sep 19, 18 @ 8:39 am: ==Minnesota state taxes based on Federally taxable income, while Illinois state tax is based on AGI== An inconvenient truth…for some. - Dr X - Wednesday, Sep 19, 18 @ 8:44 am: Todd needs to sit down with Dave Ramsey and get some financial advice - Perrid - Wednesday, Sep 19, 18 @ 8:54 am: @Ole General, I have to believe there is wiggle room in your budget there. Like let’s talk about that house payment. Back of the napkin math, to get a $3,000 monthly payment, just for the mortage, you could buy a $700,000 house, put 20% down, and have a 30 year mortgage at 5% interest. I really, really think even in Chicago you can buy less house than that. Maybe you were also accounting for property taxes or something, but I think my point still stands. And you average $200 a month for clothes? I might not be stylish but that also seems high to me. And simply the fact that you have the ability to fully fund your ROTH IRA is a privilege most people do not have. For the median household, $11,000 would represent about 18% of their gross median income. I get that your expenses seem normal to you, and that your expenses are very near your earnings, but in the bigger picture, you are very well off, that’s just a fact. - Dr X - Wednesday, Sep 19, 18 @ 11:50 am: 11,000k in a Roth, over 30 years at 5% compounded annually = 814,000 Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.