52 Comments - Precinct Captain - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 9:45 am: All of Rauner’s boondoggle IT “upgrades” and this is still happening? - Perrid - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 9:45 am: Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Ok, Ok, I’m good. I feel bad for the people not being paid, I do, but this is so sad it’s hilarious. - NeverPoliticallyCorrect - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 9:52 am: This is true in many units of state government. Despite sweetheart IT deals given by many administrations. - ArchPundit - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 9:54 am: Oh my. This is exactly what CRMs are made for and IDOT is using 1990 (at best technology). - Al - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 9:54 am: Well, this kind of thing happens, when you don’t even bother to budget. Or even fix hiring issues. If you only hire toadies someone sent this happens. You need to hire some knowledgeable adults. An adult who does not need to be told what to do, but can identify obsolete processes and take action. I guess DOT did not get the Rapid Response email. /s - Hollow Man - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 9:54 am: Are they using MS-DOS to fill potholes as well? Now that a ten year old problem has breached Capitolfax, I expect a solution of some sort to be announced within 48 hours. The only real question is whether the phrase “hollowing out of state government” will be used. - XonXoff - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 9:56 am: Security by obscurity. Nice. - Last Bull Moose - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 9:58 am: Who believes software is the real problem here? Quill pens or a Cray computer could give the same results. - Keyrock - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 9:58 am: Maybe Rauner’s consultants upgraded it from FORTRAN or COBOL? - Jooley - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 9:59 am: SOS office is still using a system based on FORTRAN. It’s ridiculous. - The Captain - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:01 am: I’m equally appalled and in awe. - ArchPundit - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:02 am: While this is ridiculous there is a fairly significant market for COBOL programmers updating the underlying code for many companies and institutions. Even if most of the software is interacted with on a Windows platform, the underlying structure is COBOL and so there is a fairly significant niche market for COBOL programmers. The problem with IDOT is an MS DOS interface is just nuts. I mean, why not just make a spreadsheet at this point. - Captain Obvious - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:03 am: The inventory management system at the agency where I work is ms-dos. - ILPundit - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:06 am: This anecdote says so much about how and why Illinois government continues to struggle. Ever since Blago began to centralize agency decisions into the Governor’s office through Deputy Chiefs of Staff/Deputy Governors, and centralized IT, its been hard for agencies to pursue modernization. When the all agencies have to clear basic operations decisions for their agencies through the Governor’s office, those decisions get slowed down, and put at the bottom of the stack of issues to deal with, because policy ideas are sexier and get better PR. In the meantime, hiring processes now take as long as 6 months to fill basic front line positions, and there is no latitude or appetite for the type of fundamental process reorganization that the state has needed since the turn of the century. The Governor would be well served by vesting more power in his agency Directors, and by having a Director of Operations whose job is to focus on nothing more than tackling the need to staff up quickly, streamline hiring and contracting processes, and upgrading IT across the board. Government will remain “hollowed out” until this happens - I Miss Bentohs - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:07 am: Let’s figure out how to convert other programs to DOS. We need to save money and this seems like a simple, great idea. - Saluki Proud - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:10 am: ILPundit- Hiring takes much longer at IDOT due to the Special Master. Positions in the Technical Manager series that are under a 5 aren’t moving because she won’t approve job descriptions. There is a horrible backlog of jobs to fill here. - Wylie Coyote - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:17 am: At least no one wants to hack ‘em…… - Flynn's Mom - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:18 am: That made me laugh but not because it’s funny. - Earnest - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:25 am: Software issue here or management issue I wonder. Still, such potential to take a business incubator approach to state government IT. Hire Tier II employees to be paying into the pension system, partner with colleges to enhance tech offerings, create fertile ground for entrepreneurship (they may start out poor, but they are the true Job Creators). - ConcernedCitizen - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:35 am: For the love of god please don’t hire deloittefor the upgrade…. I work with IES on a daily basis at the IT level and wow is probably the nicest thing I could say that program - Donnie Elgin - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:35 am: On the plus side IDOT is certainly saving money in the software budget line. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:37 am: It makes a little bit of sense that there was no urgency to upgrade the system that processes claims. I mean, why make it easier to pay money out? Easy to see why this upgrade was always at the bottom of the priority list. - Anon221 - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:44 am: From CBS2’s report on 4-15: As IDOT told Eleby, the responsibility falls on contractors and insurance companies. “They work for IDOT,” Eleby said. “My tax dollars went into pay for this contract, why do I have to contact them?” He ended up contacting the subcontractor IDOT said was responsible for the damage, and when he filed another claim it was also denied. https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2019/04/15/idot-damage-claims/ And around and around we go… sigh. - Professor Chaos - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:47 am: Is this a DataEase DB? IDOT loved DataEase…20 plus years ago. - Michelle Flaherty - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:47 am: Pssst. I can hack in with the phone coupler on my Tandy TRS-80 Model 100 laptop (the beloved “Trash 80″) and speed up your claim. Well, speed it up as much as one can with a 14.4 modem. - @misterjayem - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:54 am: Please insert the following disk in drive A: Setup Disk #3 When you are ready to continue, press ENTER. – MrJM - Anonymous - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:54 am: IDPH is still using DOS command program also called 3270 or RACF. Ridiculous. It’s from early 70’s - Anotheretiree - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 10:58 am: Echoing ArchPundit, I always chuckle at my State Farm agent when I see their modern PC’s with a Window’s GUI application that is housing inside it a good old black and green CICS screen with all the PF keys listed like its 1982 again. - OneMan - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 11:03 am: Never pass up a chance to bash Rauner, got to love the consistency. If you have a limited budget why bother upgrading/re-creating a system that works? You get 2 ~3 claims a day on average, why spend money to either re-create a working system or create a new one from scratch? The length of time it takes IDOT to process these claims isn’t due to the computing power of an MS-DOS system. Let’s say IDOT had $100,000 to spend on IT (I am sure it is more), would you really treat this as a priority? I suspect, “We need to upgrade the system someone wrote to reject damage claims for road construction” did not get much consideration in a meeting at IDOT. Yeah it would make sense to move it to something else, but the time and money spent on that is time and money you are not spending on something else. The older it gets, the harder it gets to move. You may (or may not) be shocked the amount of stuff that runs on old hardware, old OS versions and old software that does very important stuff every day. So no it doesn’t suprise me. The show How it’s Made did a feature in 2005 on a comnapny that made rolls for player pianos that used a Apple II to run the system. - City Zen - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 11:04 am: 10 PRINT “PENSIONS ARE A PROMISE, SOFTWARE UPDATES ARE NOT” 20 GOTO 10 RUN - IT Guy - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 11:07 am: –IDPH is still using DOS command program also called 3270 or RACF. Ridiculous. – A 3270 emulator using RACF security has nothing to do with DOS so what is ridiculous is your comment. To the article, the DOS based system IDOT is using is not likely slowing down the processing of the claims because the specialized nature of the claims would greatly limit any programs that could be written to expedite the work. Makes for a fun story that’s just piling on. Or maybe it’s meant to try to get a new IT contract moving. - @misterjayem - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 11:23 am: “IDOT’s website indicates all claims can be filed with the agency only after waiting for the state to mail the form to you.” And their blasted fax number rings three times and goes straight to the answering machine. – MrJM - Michelle Flaherty - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 11:25 am: A live look inside IDOT’s claims management department … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1F7vaNP9w0 - Winderweezle - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 11:48 am: My wife used to LOL when she would walk past my open computer and see Lotus Notes mail open. Finally getting away from that mess. Software apps matter. A reporting software called ICase pretty much destroyed ISP productivity. They began to bounce back after it was replaced by a commercially available police reporting software. - Developer - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 12:00 pm: All government agencies should run their operations on secure systems - meaning systems which have all security patches applied in a timely fashion. If this isn’t happening, then people in charge should be replaced. I wonder what personal information is stored on these ancient systems? They are likely skirting Federal laws… And bringing up Rauner for MS-DOS just demonstrates extreme political bias in the face of reality. Who has actually been there since BEFORE the MS-DOS days? Ask yourself who is so very much more responsible for this sort of thing than Rauner. - Just saying - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 12:31 pm: Modern days script files on networks are based on DOS commands. Could someone have seen some of these files and just naturally this, MD-DOS. DOS commands are not dead and are used in a variety of scenarios even today in conjunction with modern day windows. Many modern day GUI interfaces are still based on the old framework of DOS commands. - IT Guy - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 12:45 pm: –I wonder what personal information is stored on these ancient systems– I’m guessing you “develop” realisate? The ancient systems sa you call them are more reliable and secure than any web based system that are being pushed by the contractors these days. Any sales people that say different would only make such claims to upper management folks that dont know any better. - ArchPundit - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 12:59 pm: ===Echoing ArchPundit, I always chuckle at my State Farm agent when I see their modern PC’s with a Window’s GUI application that is housing inside it a good old black and green CICS screen with all the PF keys listed like its 1982 again. LOL–in some sense this is government operating like a business. On a serious note, it’s expensive to upgrade and creating an entirely new system is expensive and will have lots of problems during implementation. That’s why companies like State Farm build on the old infrastructure. At some point you have to make the decision though. - Perrid - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 1:02 pm: IT Guy, you gain security at a loss of functionality though. Now maybe the state doesn’t care about being portability or usability or taking advantage of outside infrastructure, or any other reasons to go to a cloud based system, but there is a trade off to having a separate system. - allknowingmasterofraccoondom - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 1:06 pm: I do business with IDOT and this is so IDOT. - ArchPundit - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 1:10 pm: —-I wonder what personal information is stored on these ancient systems? That in itself is not a security problem and in fact, having old languages limits how well the underlying programming can be changed given limited knowledge of the older programming. The issue of security is still at the network level–not in the storage of data in programs. A secure network is the best defense. The long term problem is how long can you keep up the systems with fewer people knowing the languages and more hardware issues. As OneMan wisely points out, in the short term it’s not a big deal. However, in the long term do you want to wait until you hit a wall and have to make the switch without planning. - Gobblers Knob - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 1:11 pm: IDOT may take the heat for this and deserve it, but isn’t it the responsibility of CMS to provide the computer services for IDOT and others? Didn’t all of the computer people and janitors all “leave” IDOT back in the Blago years to generate a big savings? - Iamthepita - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 2:01 pm: DHS/DRS uses ms-dos based (also RACF system) to pay vouchers, aka, payments to be issued by the comptroller’s office and nobody has an actual manual on the whole system (employees are expected to rely on other employees to share information on how to use/navigate the system). A good example of this is, if a voucher is submitted to be “paid” it has to be “released” by another employee within a certain time frame or the payment never gets submitted. If you think the use of MS-DOS is bad, from what I last understood, the internet speeds never exceeds more than qp mbps for the whole dhs internet infrastructure. Which is why it can be challenging to work faster if the tools limits you from working faster…. - Skeptic - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 2:04 pm: “Please insert the following disk in drive A: Setup Disk #3″ Wait…you mean I was supposed to take Disks #1 and #2 out first? - Skeptic - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 2:52 pm: I agree with IT Guy, if they’re using DOS to do 3270 emulation (I didn’t see where does it say what’s actually being used), then this is Not A Problem. Mainframes are powerful and reliable. The applications are already written and well known and understood (and audited.) Emulators are a mature software market and don’t need patching the same way as big complex programs browsers and word processors. DOS has very low hardware requirements so you can save thousands by not having to upgrade the computer every time. And as a side note, Lotus Notes (which is still being developed and supported BTW) is quirky and clunky, but can be the platform for some amazing workflow if you can find someone that can develop on the platform. /soapbox - Kutty - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 3:37 pm: Fix our roads, and claims go down. - IllinoisBoi - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 3:38 pm: Abort? Retry? Fail? (Oh, a whole lotta failin’ going on.) - Me Again - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 4:04 pm: If IDOT Is still using a MS-DOS (PC) system to manage information on road-damage claims, that is quite a story of incompetence, since all it will take is a hardware failure to bring down the system. You can’t keep old hardware/software running forever. Readers should not confuse the above system with TSO/ISPF/RACF/COBOL/IMS/CICS running on a mainframe, since the state (CMS) has up-to-date hardware/software that is well supported in that regard. - Lefty Lefty - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 4:23 pm: I was one of those claims filed in 2017. My wife and I hit a pothole on 2-lane IL31 near South Elgin at 45 mph. The pothole had started at the edge of the pavement (months/years before?) adjacent to the gravel shoulder, but by this time the entire white stripe was gone with the hole extending about 8-10 inches into the traffic lane. Popped both passenger-side tires, bent a rim. I received the form from IDOT. It looked like it had been printed on thermal paper and copied. It was crooked on the page. Conclusion: lack of maintenance isn’t IDOT’s fault. We should watch out for 10-inch deep potholes at 10pm at night at 45mph. The numbers above make me feel a little better, I guess. Misery loves company. - Anyone Remember - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 6:25 pm: Me Again - Thank you. Wanted to make a similar point, but typing all those acronyms on a phone … - Dr. Charles Forbin - Tuesday, Apr 16, 19 @ 6:35 pm: State procurement and other functions have been crippled for some time now, due to Deloitte’s “upgrades” using SAP. I know users that have been given “easy Guides” to using the ERP, and it looks like a Chinese dictionary. This software called SAP was originally built by IBM to run factories, and the consultants tried to hammer it into something that works for Governments. Only, that’s hard to do; the saying about SAP is that “it combines American attention to detail with German flexibility”. It’s the software that torpedoed Target’s entire Canadian operation. https://www.zdnet.com/article/billion-dollar-failures-how-bad-decisions-and-poor-it-killed-target-canada/ To get it to work for government needs, instead of modifying SAP, the consultants insisted that all the well-tested and long-running government IT processes be revamped and retooled to fit into SAP’s framework of how -it- likes to do things. Even simple things like the names of common functions, are re-named to fit the existing conventions of SAP’s system. Which wouldn’t be so bad, if it actually, you know… worked. But it turns out governments don’t operate like a car factory line. By the time they wrestle SAP into something reliable and stable and easy to use and understand, DoiT staff could have written their own custom apps using COTS components and their institutional knowledge of how these systems actually are used. With more accountability and responsiveness at less cost. - Jonas - Wednesday, Apr 17, 19 @ 2:50 pm: MS-DOS is incidental and irrelevant to any claims processing problems. But, let’s not let that get in the way of a story. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.